A golfer devoid of etiquette

[InTheHole]

The thing that bothers me is the assumptions guys like this make.

There are millions of people in the world golfing right this minute- and I have no control over them or what they do, and I really couldn't care less. But when I go out for my round, I play by the rules to the best of my ability.

Guys like this assume that all the things they do wrong are "ok" by everyone else, without ever asking. C'mon, were they really born yesterday and are so naive to the rules? Do they really not know that kicking a ball to a better lie is a penalty? Dropping balls in wrong locations, mulligans... really?

Then, when you have some sort of objection to a rules violation, or point out the penalty strokes, they label you as "stuck up" or "too serious" or tell you to "lighten up man, we're just having fun!"

Well, I'm trying to have fun too, but I have fun by following the game and the rules! That's the assumption- we follow the rules. If you don't want to follow the rules, then please plainly state such before the round starts and ask your playing partners if it's OK with them. It's just common courtesy.

You shouldn't be labeled the bad guy for not doing something wrong (or agreeing with someone who does). You want to kick balls out of the rough to make your next shot a little easier- fine! Add the penalty to your scorecard please and let's move on.

[Stampa]

I don't think you're being unreasonable at all. Damaging the course is disrespectful to the folks caring for the course, and slowing down play shows a disrespect for everyone else's valuable time. I do think you should just talk to the guy face to face. Maybe you guys can resolve it and become great friends some day?

As for the cheating, fine. A guy like that would never get a bet from me.

[MtlJeff]

[quote name='Boomermike' date='25 May 2010 - 09:12 AM' timestamp='1274793123' post='2465811']
Great responses by all.

MtlJeff: I've also played a lot of basketball (dad was a basketball coach - ate, breathed, and slept the game growing up, and just as passionate about it as golf). Since you think pickup hoops and a casual round of golf are comparable, try this the next time you're playing hoops: Add a point to your team's score after a missed shot, and when your opponents protest, say "Aw, come on guys...this isn't the NBA Finals...it's just a casual game...the ball hit the rim and almost went in...what difference does an unearned point or two make?"

You'd never dream of doing that on the basketball court, but it's 100%, completely, thoroughly, and factually IDENTICAL to taking mulligans and ignoring penalty strokes on the golf course while keeping your score on the same card with guys who play by the rules. I challenge anybody to tell me the difference. An illegitimate score is an illegitimate score, regardless the sport. Black and white, cut and dry, no gray area.

JMBZL: You touch on a great point - fine for guys to bend the rules if it helps them enjoy the game more, but don't compare that score to guys who follow the rules. Here's my thing with taking a mully per nine: What if, at the end of the day, the scorecard adds up to the best round I've ever shot? I can take no satisfaction in claiming that number knowing it was a b.s. score from a round in which the rules weren't followed. I mean...when I break 80 for the first time, I want it to be legit, not with mulligans. Never know when the stars will be alligned, my swing & ballstriking will be at their best, the putts that usually rim out roll in instead, and that magical day will happen. Wouldn't it be a shame to waste a day like that on an illegitimate score?

No doubt I'm giving the appearance of being "uptight" with this thread, but I'm really a pretty relaxed dude to spend four hours with & drink a few beers with on the course. It just doesn't sit well with me when guys play golf & don't respect the game.
[/quote]

you make a good point , but i did mention in my post that i am completely on your side if someone is cheating and posting scores towards a handicap, or in any other kind of competitive setting. That's the difference between golf and hoops i guess, is that even in a friendly game you are always "competing" against someone so to speak. Whereas in golf you can play your own game independantly of someone even in your own group.

the reason i always take the contrarian view in these threads is that i have a number of friends who are great guys, and play 10-15 times a year. And they always take 3-4 mulligans, gimmies, you name it. But none of them have any delusions about being good golfers, and it makes them happy to think they can shoot an 89, so i mean...so be it. Sometimes going out for a quick 18 is like just going out to the court and shooting around for a while. No game, no competition, just a fun round.

anyway, cool that you played basketball aswell. Was always my game growing up

[thegooddoctor]

[quote name='Boomermike' date='24 May 2010 - 03:26 PM' timestamp='1274732762' post='2464239']
A buddy of mine who I play with regularly will sometimes bring along a friend of his to play in our foursome if we have a spot open, and this is what we can expect from this fellow EVERY time he plays:

1) He shows up at the course wearing blue jeans and loafers with no socks (it's a muni with a loose dress code, but still...)

2) He starts on the first tee by saying "one mulligan per nine, right?" And he takes them.

3) Any ball that is behind a tree, he kicks out without taking a penalty stroke.

4) For his second shot on any par-5, he builds a little dirt-mound tee on the fairway and places his ball on top of it so he can hit driver off the deck. Of course, he takes no penalty strokes when doing this.

5) Any time we're near any water (it's all spring-fed and cyrstal clear on our course), he pulls out his telescoping ball-retriever and goes ball-fishing, no matter how disruptive it is to our pace of play, or the group behind us.

6) He marks his ball on the green with a Bowie knife. I'm not making this up. He pulls a huge jacknife out of his pocket and sticks it in the green to mark his ball. "Great idea...we'll never hit that thing with our putts, dude!"

I told my buddy recently that if this character is invited to play again in the future, count me out. Maybe I'm letting him bother me too much, but I don't enjoy the round as much when somebody in my group egregiously spits in the face of the game's rules and etiquette. I said to him once, "If you're going to take a mulligan per nine and move your ball without penalty strokes, then keep your score on a separate card from the rest of us, because you're not playing the same game we are." He told me I take golf too seriously and need to learn to "just have fun" out on the course.

Anybody else find themselves in a foursome with a similar character? How did you handle it?
[/quote]

1-4 don't matter unless you are playing some kinda team game, 5-6, those are annoying. Some of my most enjoyable rounds growing up were with my dad and his fart in your back swing, ready golf , beer drinking buddies. Those guys had a great time, played fast, and a couple were real damn good golfers.

[Carolina Golfer 2]

[quote name='swbyps' date='25 May 2010 - 10:58 AM' timestamp='1274799484' post='2466087']
I dont know man...For the sake of us all on WRX, you might need to play with this guy one or two more times. From the sound of it, you never know what antics this guy might pull next. Dude might show up in some cutoff jean shorts and a wife beater. He might hit it in the rough, take out that knife and shave down the grass around his ball. Do you know how much mileage we could get out of a threads like that. Come on now...take one for the team!
[/quote]

Fricking hilarious!!

[EnglishBob]

I wouldn't play with him, I do play for fun and to relax and I don't think him ding some of those would be contributing to that.

Used to have a guy that played occasionally with out group that wouldn't rake bunkers... I told him if he couldn't respect the players coming behind him he wasn't welcome to play with me... He was also a ball hunter that would slow us down, I emptied my shag bag in his trunk one day and told him that should remove his need to forage for a round or two.

[larrybud]

I would say either find another group, or keep your mouth shut about #1-5, because of #6!!!

[farmer]

I played with my father-in-law and a friend of his and they played with two rolling mulligans per nine, teed it up everywhere-but always putted out. Never kept score, had no intention of playing a serious round, just played. I would just play through the pain, unless the guy is an a** in every respect.

[bigred90gt]

[quote name='InTheHole' date='25 May 2010 - 02:51 PM' timestamp='1274817075' post='2466688']

Well, I'm trying to have fun too, but I have fun by following the game and the rules! That's the assumption- we follow the rules. If you don't want to follow the rules, then please plainly state such before the round starts and ask your playing partners if it's OK with them. It's just common courtesy.

You shouldn't be labeled the bad guy for not doing something wrong (or agreeing with someone who does). You want to kick balls out of the rough to make your next shot a little easier- fine! Add the penalty to your scorecard please and let's move on.
[/quote]I follow the rules when I play, dont take mulligans, never bump my ball, so forth and so on, but would NEVER in my wildest imagination think that I am important enough to ANYONE that they would let me know their intentions on how they wanted to play their round of golf that they paid for, and make sure it is ok with me. How self righteous can a person really be to think that is necessary? If there is money changing hands at the end, absolutely. If it is just a round with friends, no one owes me an explanation about how they are going to play, and no one needs another member of the groups permission to do so.

As for slowing down play and stabbing a large knife into the green, these are completely different issues, and should be addressed (preferably when the knife is not on his person).


[quote name='MtlJeff' date='25 May 2010 - 05:29 PM' timestamp='1274826542' post='2467003']

you make a good point , but i did mention in my post that i am completely on your side if someone is cheating and posting scores towards a handicap, or in any other kind of competitive setting. That's the difference between golf and hoops i guess, is that even in a friendly game you are always "competing" against someone so to speak. Whereas in golf you can play your own game independantly of someone even in your own group.

the reason i always take the contrarian view in these threads is that i have a number of friends who are great guys, and play 10-15 times a year. And they always take 3-4 mulligans, gimmies, you name it. But none of them have any delusions about being good golfers, and it makes them happy to think they can shoot an 89, so i mean...so be it. Sometimes going out for a quick 18 is like just going out to the court and shooting around for a while. No game, no competition, just a fun round.

anyway, cool that you played basketball aswell. Was always my game growing up
[/quote]

This.

I have 2 friends that I love to golf with. I've been friends with one of them for about 15 years, and the other 20+ years. They are like brothers (I dont have any actual male siblings), and the time we get to spend on the course is priceless. 1 of them, who is arguably one of the worst golfers I have ever played with, actually wants to play by the rules, and will count all of his strokes, even though he may come up with a 12 on some holes. He might play once or twice a year.

The other (the guy I have been friends with for over 20 years) is one of those guys who will hit off the tee box, and if it goes ob, or if we look for it and it ends up lost, will just drop one near where I am at. He will usually hit 2, and if the 2nd one is good, so be it, that was his tee shot. He carries a full bag of clubs, and literally uses 3 of them during the round, maybe 4 (driver, Perfect club, 7 wood, putter). He could lose 50 balls in one round, never get mad about it, and wind up with a 95 on the card, even though we all know it was closer to 150.

With both of them, the few times a year they get to play, they truly enjoy it. If they want to post a number there is no way they could ever shoot, and if that helps them to enjoy it just that much more, great! I know what I shot was a legitimate score, and that is my only concern.

[InTheHole]

[quote name='bigred90gt' date='27 May 2010 - 10:19 AM' timestamp='1274969966' post='2470568']
[quote name='InTheHole' date='25 May 2010 - 02:51 PM' timestamp='1274817075' post='2466688']
Well, I'm trying to have fun too, but I have fun by following the game and the rules! That's the assumption- we follow the rules. If you don't want to follow the rules, then please plainly state such before the round starts and ask your playing partners if it's OK with them. It's just common courtesy.

You shouldn't be labeled the bad guy for not doing something wrong (or agreeing with someone who does). You want to kick balls out of the rough to make your next shot a little easier- fine! Add the penalty to your scorecard please and let's move on.
[/quote]I follow the rules when I play, dont take mulligans, never bump my ball, so forth and so on, but would NEVER in my wildest imagination think that I am important enough to ANYONE that they would let me know their intentions on how they wanted to play their round of golf that they paid for, and make sure it is ok with me. How self righteous can a person really be to think that is necessary? If there is money changing hands at the end, absolutely. If it is just a round with friends, no one owes me an explanation about how they are going to play, and no one needs another member of the groups permission to do so.

As for slowing down play and stabbing a large knife into the green, these are completely different issues, and should be addressed (preferably when the knife is not on his person).


[/quote]


Do you really get to the first tee, make a bad shot and announce "breakfast ball!" and take a mulligan? Every round of golf I've played, especially with strangers, someone says "It's early- mulligans on the first hole today guys, OK?" or something similar. If someone disagrees, they say so. There's also an agreement as to whether anyone is getting shots, gimme putts, etc. This of course, if we're playing against each other (whether for money or just a friendly "throwdown" for bragging rights). I see it as common courtesy to the other players who also paid money- how do I have a right to violate rules and then claim I beat them?

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying we have to discuss every single rule in the rulebook. But generally, I like to make sure we're all on the same sheet of music before the round starts when it comes to the common rule violations like mulligans and such- otherwise I assume you are following the rules. I never assume I'm getting a 6-inch putt- I always putt out.

What is the alternative, to assume you violate all the rules? OK, I'll can play that way too... but my wallet stays in my pocket in money games, and I keep my own score and could care less what you shoot. And even if I shoot 100 and you shoot 70- don't tell me you beat me because I'm assuming you didn't play the same game I played. That doesn't sound very friendly to me.

[bigred90gt]

[quote name='InTheHole' date='27 May 2010 - 10:38 AM' timestamp='1274974721' post='2470761']

Do you really get to the first tee, make a bad shot and announce "breakfast ball!" and take a mulligan? Every round of golf I've played, especially with strangers, someone says "It's early- mulligans on the first hole today guys, OK?" or something similar. If someone disagrees, they say so. There's also an agreement as to whether anyone is getting shots, gimme putts, etc. This of course, if we're playing against each other (whether for money or just a friendly "throwdown" for bragging rights). I see it as common courtesy to the other players who also paid money- how do I have a right to violate rules and then claim I beat them?

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying we have to discuss every single rule in the rulebook. But generally, I like to make sure we're all on the same sheet of music before the round starts when it comes to the common rule violations like mulligans and such- otherwise I assume you are following the rules. I never assume I'm getting a 6-inch putt- I always putt out.

What is the alternative, to assume you violate all the rules? OK, I'll can play that way too... but my wallet stays in my pocket in money games, and I keep my own score and could care less what you shoot. And even if I shoot 100 and you shoot 70- don't tell me you beat me because I'm assuming you didn't play the same game I played. That doesn't sound very friendly to me.
[/quote]

No, I dont hit a bad shot and call for a breakfast ball. I already said I dont take mulligans. Other people do, all the time, and it doesnt bother me. When I hit a bad shot on the 1st tee, and someone in my group says "hit another one, it's the 1st hole", I just say "Nah, I'll go ahead and play that one", and we move on.

I guess the difference is when I play, whether it is with my friends or with strangers I've hooked up with on the 1st tee, I'm not playing competition (for money, friendly, or otherwise) with them. I am playing my game, and they are playing theirs. We are there to enjoy the game of golf as we like to play it, enjoy the time spent outdoors away from the daily grind, and enjoy each others company. if someone wants to break every rule in the book, never take a penalty, and say they shot a 70, fine by me. After the round, there is no bragging about scores between each other. sometimes we grab a beer and a bite to eat, and talk about whatever comes up in conversation, most times we get in our cars and go our separate ways, back to our lives. Everything in life is not a competition, and people enjoy the game differently. I enjoy the game in a way that I know I am playing to the best of my abilities within the rules as outlined by the USGA. Sometimes I will put up a great score, sometimes I will put up a terrible score, but the scores come playing by the rules, unless it is a late day practice round and I am simply trying to work on something, then I may hit a couple of balls, but I dont keep a score.

[swbyps]

^^This is my opinion exactly. Being a person who does not bet or play in tournaments, there is never anything on the line when I play. I compete only against myself and my own expectations of my game. I play sometimes with my dads saturday group. They are a bunch of retired 60 somethings. They always have money on the line and they do not play "exactly" by the rules. However, the rules that they do break are generally accepted throughout the group. Im not saying that I necessarily agree with it, but for them thats how they do it. Far be it from me to be the USGA rules police.

[SpinMill75]

I would have a serious talk with your friend and inform him that you just can't play with this guy and enjoy yourself. I play with ding-a-lings all the time, but if someone stuck a big knife into the green and used it as a ball mark, among all the other stuff, I would be outta there.

[ap1_alan]

The only thing on that list that would bother me is searching for balls in water hazards. If it didn't impact the pace of play, I wouldn't care about that either.


The rest of the items on your list are pretty funny, i'd spend most of my round laughing at that guy.

[youraway2]

I’m not sure how to respond to this post and maybe I shouldn't.

Golf is a game and one is supposed to be having fun while playing the game. But, it is a game and is supposed to be played by the rules, or why play? If you don’t play the game, by the rules, then you’re playing some other game, IMO. Maybe that’s what’s going on in golf to simply ruin the game. I guess I’m just an old fart and don’t understand socializing, no rules golf.

When I play golf I want to play the best I can by the rules. I’m not a jerk or a rules freak. If you don’t wish to play by the rules, then that’s ok, but for me I need to. I want to have a factual score. I want to score less than 80, correctly.

I remember playing up in Utah with the state senior champion. I was very impressed with his game and his game made me wish to play better, and I did. We were a three-some playing skins and on the 16th two of us hit it very close. Mine was about 6 foot and I marked my ball. The young guy with us was about a foot or less and I said that’s good. He looked at me sort of funny and then at the senior player. I noticed his glance and I said, we’ll its good isn’t it? The senior said, well if it’s good then he should just go ahead a tap it on in. I learned a lesson that day and have learned many others since. The lesson, play by the rules. The rules establish the game and set a standard for you. How many times have I heard I shot 74 today only to know that this player seldom follows the rules and usually hits more than one ball.

Sorry for the rant – I just love this game and enjoy it more everyday following the rules. I’m not a scratch player, never have been, but I work hard to obtain the best score I can, every time out. And yes playing by the rules includes having respect for others in my group. What’s mentioned in this post is nothing more than a self-centered individual having little respect for others.

[againstthegrain]

The guy w the 3/4" green tees trying to get away w something is far worse than that other stuff. The ball retriever bugs me the most about the OP's guy. If you want to pick balls don't play and vice versa.

[InTheHole]

The other day I was playing with a couple of guys who I've seen around the club.

On one hole I hit a crappy drive followed by a couple of good shots to a green-side bunker. I'm not that confident in the sand, but I get in with my lob wedge and give it a good hack. Ball comes out nicely and rolls about 30' towards the hole, hits the flagstick and richochets about a foot away.

COOL! I rake the bunker and walk over to my cart to deposit my wedge and grab my putter, and drive the cart to the back of the green, fully anticipating my next short putt and the enjoyment I'm going to get for getting a par on a tough hole with a sand save.

I get on the green and my 2 playing partners are putting- where's my ball? About 30' away.

"You're good" I heard- they kicked my ball out of the way so they could putt.

I was pissed for the next two holes. I REALLY wanted to sink that putt- I wanted the satisfaction of making a great shot, getting up and down, and sinking my putt. Somehow placing it back would have not been the same. With the "gimme" I made par on that hole - but we never agreed to gimmes ahead of time and I didn't like not closing the hole out. If I had known we were going to concede all putts "inside the leather" as they say, I would have told them to leave my ball so I could putt it. When I make a great shot and follow that with a great putt, I get an immense amount of satisfaction.

Maybe it's just me. I can live with that.

[thegooddoctor]

No, I dont hit a bad shot and call for a breakfast ball. I already said I dont take mulligans. Other people do, all the time, and it doesnt bother me. When I hit a bad shot on the 1st tee, and someone in my group says "hit another one, it's the 1st hole", I just say "Nah, I'll go ahead and play that one", and we move on.

I guess the difference is when I play, whether it is with my friends or with strangers I've hooked up with on the 1st tee, I'm not playing competition (for money, friendly, or otherwise) with them. I am playing my game, and they are playing theirs. We are there to enjoy the game of golf as we like to play it, enjoy the time spent outdoors away from the daily grind, and enjoy each others company. if someone wants to break every rule in the book, never take a penalty, and say they shot a 70, fine by me. After the round, there is no bragging about scores between each other. sometimes we grab a beer and a bite to eat, and talk about whatever comes up in conversation, most times we get in our cars and go our separate ways, back to our lives. Everything in life is not a competition, and people enjoy the game differently. I enjoy the game in a way that I know I am playing to the best of my abilities within the rules as outlined by the USGA. Sometimes I will put up a great score, sometimes I will put up a terrible score, but the scores come playing by the rules, unless it is a late day practice round and I am simply trying to work on something, then I may hit a couple of balls, but I dont keep a score.
[/quote]

WELL SAID! I play the rules to the best of my ability without slowing down play. Whether everyone else does crosses my mind for less than a second a year. If I'm out there going from rough to rough enjoying the weather, enjoying the company, the last thing I wast to hear from a playing partner (unless I ask for advice) is a rules interpretation. I don't play to make a living, I play to enjoy the game and company. If someone else must bend the rules to get maximum enjoyment outta this game then who cares. Our dying sport could use all the players it can get!

Plus, when you play with someone and they say I'm such and such handicap and you watch them play/hack and it's obvious that either a body snatch space jam moment has occured or they must count only the first 14 holes it doesn't take a rules expert to figure out what's going on. The solution is simple either a) lighten up b) don't play with those that upset you, cause if you don't enjoy it why golf? c) bring a machette to mark ball

Remember comprimise just means that both parties are unhappy

[Pepperturbo]

[quote name='Boomermike' date='24 May 2010 - 02:26 PM' timestamp='1274732762' post='2464239'] A buddy of mine who I play with regularly will sometimes bring along a friend of his to play in our foursome if we have a spot open, and this is what we can expect from this fellow EVERY time he plays: 1) He shows up at the course wearing blue jeans and loafers with no socks (it's a muni with a loose dress code, but still...) 2) He starts on the first tee by saying "one mulligan per nine, right?" And he takes them. 3) Any ball that is behind a tree, he kicks out without taking a penalty stroke. 4) For his second shot on any par-5, he builds a little dirt-mound tee on the fairway and places his ball on top of it so he can hit driver off the deck. Of course, he takes no penalty strokes when doing this. 5) Any time we're near any water (it's all spring-fed and cyrstal clear on our course), he pulls out his telescoping ball-retriever and goes ball-fishing, no matter how disruptive it is to our pace of play, or the group behind us. 6) He marks his ball on the green with a Bowie knife. I'm not making this up. He pulls a huge jacknife out of his pocket and sticks it in the green to mark his ball. "Great idea...we'll never hit that thing with our putts, dude!" I told my buddy recently that if this character is invited to play again in the future, count me out. Maybe I'm letting him bother me too much, but I don't enjoy the round as much when somebody in my group egregiously spits in the face of the game's rules and etiquette. I said to him once, "If you're going to take a mulligan per nine and move your ball without penalty strokes, then keep your score on a separate card from the rest of us, because you're not playing the same game we are." He told me I take golf too seriously and need to learn to "just have fun" out on the course. Anybody else find themselves in a foursome with a similar character? How did you handle it? [/quote]

Doesn't matter who I am playing golf with, I seldom talk, play everything down and by the rules. Now that I've shared my game demeanor what I don't do is expect others to play the game with my intensity or behavior. In retrospect, that's partly why I took up the game to begin with.

It's the only game where people can play with different levels of intensity or skill. So as long as their actions don't affect my ability to play my game, I accept we're all different. Marking with a jackknife is funny - even though I never go anywhere without my Spyderco Police knife, it's kept in the bag. Not once have I ever thought of using it as a ball marker. but I have used it to clean dirt from my nails; talk about odd looks. Kinda reminds me of guys that use huge gambling chips, or whatever they can find in their pocket, toothpicks, pieces of grass, twigs or a slew of other items that really don't fit golf; but for them it works.

I've seen many hit driver off the deck, including myself but never seen anyone do it from a mound of turf; but I have done it on a tee box. I can't tell you how many times as a single walk-on I've watched some ole doofus hunt for balls totally unaware of how his actions influences others. Jeans, tank-tops, tennis shoes, baggy cargo pants with their azzz hanging down to their knees, as much as I dislike such casual attitudes toward golf, it's their right.

As long as anothers behavior doesn't cross my boundary of decorum, live and let live; but let them cross that boundary, I will get in their face using the same intensity I play golf with. All that said, your option is to tell your buddy his friend isn't welcome, but be willing to accept he might not want to come back either.

[J Jack]

Aw, you gotta keep playing with this guy and keep the stories coming! At some point he's going to try to catch a goose or fish for bass or doing something else story-worthy.

Would I play with him? Hard to say - if he's a longtime friend and a great guy and just a "character" then he's fine. The knife on the green has to go, though.

As far as the "I only by the Rules" posts go: I've played 2 on 2 basketball, half-court, ghostie on 1st, right-field out, pitcher's-hand, winter rules, etc. All are breaches of the Rules of those sports, but "no harm, no foul"

But don't tell me you shot a 78

[David Hillman]

[QUOTE=nebatty]
You'd never dream of doing that on the basketball court, but it's 100%,
completely, thoroughly, and factually IDENTICAL to taking mulligans and
ignoring penalty strokes on the golf course while keeping your score on
the same card with guys who play by the rules. I challenge anybody to
tell me the difference.
[/QUOTE]

Since you challenged and all...

The difference is that you play a basketball game AGAINST another person or team. That isn't necessarily the case on the golf course. Many people play against their fellow competitors for money or pride, but many just play. There isn't necessarily a winner and loser, as there must be with a basketball game.

And for the record, there is 'gray area', because no one plays by every Rule of Golf. It is impossible to do so, under the Rules as currently-written. So while the mulligan-taker's score is invalid, so is yours, unfortunately.

[mlp]

First 2 are meh. Last 4 are wtf?

Don't play with this guy. What is the problem. Does this really need a thread?