Cheating - unintentional, but still cheating

[DrSchteeve]

Handling a touchy subject

I find that how strictly to apply the Rules of Golf varies a great deal among golfers.

Recently played with a friend that I play with just a few times per year. We play for friendly wagers - $5 or so - along with bragging rights.

The friend understands the concept of playing it down, but obviously not other rules. Twice he hit into a red stakes area with a tee shot; both times I clearly said "You need to go back to where the ball last crossed the margin of the hazard and drop within two club lengths". Both times he walks out to the edge of the fairway, makes his drop, takes his shot. Both times, where he hit from gave him clear sight to the green; both times, if he had taken the drop he should have taken, he would not have been able to see the green.

Suggestions on tactful ways to bring up the issue?

[boo radley]

[quote name='DrSchteeve' date='10 June 2010 - 10:19 AM' timestamp='1276179571' post='2500456']
I find that how strictly to apply the Rules of Golf varies a great deal among golfers.

Recently played with a friend that I play with just a few times per year. We play for friendly wagers - $5 or so - along with bragging rights.

The friend understands the concept of playing it down, but obviously not other rules. Twice he hit into a red stakes area with a tee shot; both times I clearly said "You need to go back to where the ball last crossed the margin of the hazard and drop within two club lengths". Both times he walks out to the edge of the fairway, makes his drop, takes his shot. Both times, where he hit from gave him clear sight to the green; both times, if he had taken the drop he should have taken, he would not have been able to see the green.

Suggestions on tactful ways to bring up the issue?
[/quote]

Hmm....I'm guessing your friend now has bragging rights and $5.

Unless your friendship isn't worth more than the wager...what more can you so, seriously? Count yourself fortunate he plays the ball down, and play your own game. You've pointed out he's not taking a proper drop from the lateral hazard, and he chose to ignore you.

99.9999% of all golfers play by some variant of the Rules of Golf.

[Openwater22]

Give him a rules book as a discussion starter.

[TheGeekGolfer]

This same situation happened in a league last Tuesday. Twice, one guy in our foursome went into a lateral hazard on a direct line from the tee (both times on the right). Both times, if he dropped where he should have, he would have still had the most of the hazard blocking his way. He also hit out-of-bounds on the first hole and thought, "well, those stakes are new, so that shouldn't count"?!?!??!?!

I called him on it the second time it happened and he got so frickin' bent out of shape, it ruined the last few holes. Of course, somehow I look like the jerk here. He ends up claiming to shoot a 41 (for 9) and T3 w/ handicap. Frickin' cheaters!!!

[Grogger31]

Next time, with a big smile on your face, walk over with him to his ball. Stand where you think he should be dropping.

As he starts to walk to his 'preferred lie' to take a drop, say "Hey, Mickelson ... you have to drop it over here".

If he's a friend, you can get away with that and he should get the point. If he says he's dropping somewhere else, just tell him your friendly wager is off.

[puttnforthe8]

Download and print the procedure for taking drops from Yellow & Red and hand it to everyone. I have this on my Ipod, and a printed version in my bag at all times.

Comes in handy and all the players I have dealt with appreciate it....remember knowing the correct rule can ALSO benefit a player some time....like going to the other side of the water where there may be grass vs going all the way back!!

I do the same thing for how to drop from cart path, etc.

[Sawgrass]

While I have several friends who play strictly by the rules, and while I enjoy competing with them, I also know many people who behave as the O.P. described.

I don't believe there is any satisfactory way to deal with people who are so frustrated with the rules that they can't seem to abide by them. Some people don't know them, but are interested in learning. That's easy. But those who clearly don't want to know, don't want to learn, are hopeless. I suggest simply not competing with people who don't follow the rules. Let them do what they want and enjoy themselves in that way, while you follow the rules and only compete with yourself/the course.

(Fundamentally, I believe the only real satisfaction in golf is playing well, and that you do against the course anyway, not in comparison to a friend's performance.)

[DrSchteeve]

[quote name='boo radley' date='10 June 2010 - 11:44 AM' timestamp='1276184690' post='2500630']
[quote name='DrSchteeve' date='10 June 2010 - 10:19 AM' timestamp='1276179571' post='2500456']
I find that how strictly to apply the Rules of Golf varies a great deal among golfers.

Recently played with a friend that I play with just a few times per year. We play for friendly wagers - $5 or so - along with bragging rights.

The friend understands the concept of playing it down, but obviously not other rules. Twice he hit into a red stakes area with a tee shot; both times I clearly said "You need to go back to where the ball last crossed the margin of the hazard and drop within two club lengths". Both times he walks out to the edge of the fairway, makes his drop, takes his shot. Both times, where he hit from gave him clear sight to the green; both times, if he had taken the drop he should have taken, he would not have been able to see the green.

Suggestions on tactful ways to bring up the issue?
[/quote]

Hmm....I'm guessing your friend now has bragging rights and $5.

Unless your friendship isn't worth more than the wager...what more can you so, seriously? Count yourself fortunate he plays the ball down, and play your own game. You've pointed out he's not taking a proper drop from the lateral hazard, and he chose to ignore you.

99.9999% of all golfers play by some variant of the Rules of Golf.
[/quote]

Happily I beat him overall, even with the likely 2 strokes taken off his score, but he did win the front side by 1, when we would have tied with the likely 1 stroke off his score. Still, it was annoying.

I think I might try to help him the next time it happens - ask him where he thinks the ball last crossed the margin of the hazard, show him the 2 clublengths he is allowed.

[horstmc]

While I have several friends who play strictly by the rules, and while I enjoy competing with them, I also know many people who behave as the O.P. described.

 

I don't believe there is any satisfactory way to deal with people who are so frustrated with the rules that they can't seem to abide by them. Some people don't know them, but are interested in learning. That's easy. But those who clearly don't want to know, don't want to learn, are hopeless. I suggest simply not competing with people who don't follow the rules. Let them do what they want and enjoy themselves in that way, while you follow the rules and only compete with yourself/the course.

 

(Fundamentally, I believe the only real satisfaction in golf is playing well, and that you do against the course anyway, not in comparison to a friend's performance.)

 

+1. Well said.

 

I try to take satisfaction with my performance against the course. However, as soon as money is on the line, I start to care about how someone else is playing; more specifically, how they are "implementing" the rules. The examples about lateral hazards above are great examples. The other "interpretation" that is always gets me is the provisional. Provisional hit for ball potentially lost. Hits provisional well. Finds ball that might have been lost...decides to play provisional because it is such great shape. Maybe money should never be involved....

[chicken tycoon]

Hit the ball in the same hazard, and drop where you should drop. Should get the point across. Yes it might cost you 5 bucks, but I can tell by your post it bugs you more than 5 bucks does.

[teejaywhy]

[quote name='Grogger31' date='10 June 2010 - 11:08 AM' timestamp='1276193320' post='2500972']

As he starts to walk to his 'preferred lie' to take a drop, say "Hey, Mickelson ... you have to drop it over here".

[/quote]

Not understanding the reference.

[teejaywhy]

Better to play match play. Then when something like this happens, just claim the hole.

[MtlJeff]

just tell him you won't play for money anymore unless he plays by the real rules. You can tell friends that, if he gets super offended he really has a problem. I'm all for cheating in casual rounds but if you're playing for anything, gotta play by the rules

[squishyy]

At least your friend doesnt take practice strokes and touch the sand in the bunker then claims that he didnt know about the penalty when it was mentioned to him the whole day. lol

[bigred90gt]

I would simply tell him that if he wants to play for money and bragging rights, he should play by the rules, and if he just wants to play to enjoy the outdoors and the company, he can play as he wishes.

I was playing with a couple of buddies (and 1 guy I had never met) the other day, and on the first tee, 2 of them were discussing playing for money. We were talking about how much and any additional side games, when they proceeded to hit 2 off the first tee. We get to the fairway, and 1 of them was standing over his 2nd ball, and was asking about the money. I asked him if he was laying 3, and he said no, so I told him that he is already cheating and if he wants to play for money, he can play the other ball or play #4 from there. I didnt say it in a rude or confrontational way, just let him know if money was to change hands, it would need to be played by the rules.

After the round, we were sitting outside at a table drinking beer and adding up the scores. He came in with a 78 at the end (2 balls off #1, called a bunch of putts "good" and picked up, so forth and so on). We told him we would put an asterisk by his 78. lol

[Sawgrass]

[quote name='bigred90gt' date='10 June 2010 - 09:56 PM' timestamp='1276221402' post='2501983']

After the round, we were sitting outside at a table drinking beer and adding up the scores. He came in with a 78 at the end (2 balls off #1, called a bunch of putts "good" and picked up, so forth and so on). We told him we would put an asterisk by his 78. lol
[/quote]

They quote Bobby Jones as saying, "There is golf, and there is tournament golf . . ."

If he played with most of the people I get paired with he would have said, "There is taking drops and putts wherever and whenever you choose, then there is golf, and then there is tournament golf."

[actuck23]

I understand your frustration. I agree with a previous poster in that you should play match play for money. You can still keep track of your strokes just simply declare a winner each hole. It really is more fun this way too. The two of you would probably enjoy competing and playing together more as well.

I had a friend that wasn't very familiar with the rules either. He had only been playing a couple of years but really wanted to play by the rules. He never rolled his ball and always asked where he needed to drop. We were playing one day after a thunderstorm and I hit a PW just off the green onto the fringe. My ball plugged and I lifted, cleaned it and placed it near the original spot, no closer to the hole. He got all bent out of shape and told me I had to play it down. I tried to explain the rule to him but he wouldn't listen. He later called that night and apologized and said he would always seek my advice and listen on rulings.

Point is, enjoy playing with your friends first and foremost. Don't let money or anything else get in the way of friendships and the game. Also, take the time out to teach your friend how to play right and it will be a better experience for the both of you.

[Sawgrass]

[quote name='actuck23' date='11 June 2010 - 08:30 AM' timestamp='1276259424' post='2502543']
I had a friend that wasn't very familiar with the rules either. He had only been playing a couple of years but really wanted to play by the rules. He never rolled his ball and always asked where he needed to drop. We were playing one day after a thunderstorm and I hit a PW just off the green onto the fringe. My ball plugged and I lifted, cleaned it and placed it near the original spot, no closer to the hole. He got all bent out of shape and told me I had to play it down. I tried to explain the rule to him but he wouldn't listen. He later called that night and apologized and said he would always seek my advice and listen on rulings.

[/quote]

I sincerely hope you don't take offense at my following observation, but you might be interested to know that you didn't take relief properly. You should have dropped rather than placed. Depending on your sensibilities surrounding the issue, it might be amusing for you to call your friend and "confess". I say this because even the most knowledgable players sometimes make mistakes, and that realization can be comforting to novices like your friend who are trying hard to "get with the program."


[b]25-2. Embedded Ball[/b]
A ball embedded in its own pitch-mark in the ground in any closely mown area [url="http://www.usga.org/workarea/linkit.aspx?linkidentifier=id&itemid=14253#ThroughtheGreen"][i]through the green[/i][/url] may be lifted, cleaned and dropped, without penalty, as near as possible to the spot where it lay but not nearer the [url="http://www.usga.org/workarea/linkit.aspx?linkidentifier=id&itemid=14253#Hole"][i]hole[/i][/url]. The ball when dropped must first strike a part of the [url="http://www.usga.org/workarea/linkit.aspx?linkidentifier=id&itemid=14253#Course"][i]course[/i][/url][url="http://www.usga.org/workarea/linkit.aspx?linkidentifier=id&itemid=14253#ThroughtheGreen"][i]through the green[/i][/url]. "Closely mown area" means any area of the [url="http://www.usga.org/workarea/linkit.aspx?linkidentifier=id&itemid=14253#Course"][i]course,[/i][/url] including paths through the rough, cut to fairway height or less.

(If when you drop it, it goes back in its own pitch mark, you get to drop it again.)

[boo radley]

[quote name='actuck23' date='11 June 2010 - 08:30 AM' timestamp='1276259424' post='2502543']

My ball plugged and I lifted, cleaned it and[b][i] placed it[/i][/b] near the original spot, no closer to the hole. He got all bent out of shape and told me I had to play it down. I tried to explain the rule to him but he wouldn't listen. He later called that night and apologized and said he would always seek my advice and listen on rulings.

Point is, enjoy playing with your friends first and foremost. Don't let money or anything else get in the way of friendships and the game. Also, take the time out to teach your friend how to play right and it will be a better experience for the both of you.
[/quote]

I think you need to call your friend back, and apologize, yourself.

So my question to the OP remains -- you twice pointed out that he shouldn't be dropping where he was, and he proceeded anyway. Either he did not: a) hear you, or b) chose to ignore you for a number of reasons (he was mad, didn't feel you had credibility, etc). Which was it?

This seems like less of a 'rules' issue than a 'people' issue. I still maintain you'd be better off channeling your irritation towards improving your game so that you can beat him by 5 strokes a side, despite his advantageous drops.

[stage1350]

5 words: "Strict rules of golf, Goldfinger?"

[larrybud]

[quote name='stage1350' date='11 June 2010 - 12:00 PM' timestamp='1276272011' post='2502913']
5 words: "Strict rules of golf, Goldfinger?"
[/quote]
We have a winner. And if he doesn't understand the reference, then it's an automatic DQ, and loss of his man card.

[scores]

This why I quit playing league golf along time ago. We have matches between good ams and ex.. pro's..

5 on front 5 over all 10 on the back ... 2 down automic press tough s*** play hard...

You find the driver stays in the bag when its not working.. You also learn a lot about control..of mind.

We are not richhhhhhhh ..

[mlp]

I wouldn't sweat it. Just start playing by his rules. As long as there is consistency and not much money on the line just have fun? Stop trying to ruin a guy's time out on the course by enforcing every little rule.

[Bayou Kato]

"You can't play basketball with football rules" my sainted-father used to say. In this case, I'd translate that to mean that if one person is playing with one set of rules, and another (or others) are playing with a completely different set, then you really don't have a competition, now do you? So if you're going to play two different games, leave the money and the pride out of it.

And [b][i]'strict rules of golf Goldfinger'[/i][/b] while an [u]excellent[/u] reference belies the fact that Bond broke the rules by identifying his opponents ball, not notifying him of such, and then touching it (to lift it into his pocket). I guess if you're the good guy you can cheat to hose the bad guy? {I have no problem with that ... just saying ...}

While on a rant here, I think one issue with golf and rules is that many are so hung up on the 'purity of the game' and the fact that these rules have "stood the test of time." Malarky. The rules of golf were established when golf was a different game, played by a tiny subset of people, who were un-rushed and didn't have to worry about a course where we launch foursomes off the tee every 12 minutes. They had caddies who could tell them where their ball went and help find it, rather than have it be like an Easter Egg Hunt; or due to equipment you could see where your ball went because it didn't usually go that far.

I don't know about you guys, but if I hit a ball that looks good, but when I get up there I find it lying a foot past the OB stakes, I'm not going to drive back up to the frickin' tee box and hit my third, while a group of angry gents with metal clubs in their hands, who want to play on, stare at me like I just insulted their Mother. Get a life. I'm dropping back inbounds right there, and taking my third, and moving on. The rules need a refresh in light of what's advanced and changed in the last century, let alone the last decade.

As well, if the course designer is trying to design for tournament events, and there's lateral water starting at the tee-boxes and going the length of the fairway, and I hit into it ... you want me to drop at the ladies tees and hit again? And if I go in again, drop again? Rinse and repeat until I get it right? With the Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse arriving on their electric-motorized-chariots to glare at me for not moving on? Get real. Provide a drop area clear of the hazard with a little sign that says "you're hitting your 3rd shot now" and let's continue play.

But back to the OP ... I understand your frustration and I think either you need to play by their rules (though if you're never in trouble, you get no benefit) or simply don't play this as a competitive thing, for pride OR money, with people who aren't willing to work out a consistent set of "understandings" for how the match will proceed.

[Sawgrass]

[quote name='Bayou Kato' date='12 June 2010 - 10:00 AM' timestamp='1276351222' post='2504604']

. . . While on a rant here, I think one issue with golf and rules is that many are so hung up on the 'purity of the game' and the fact that these rules have "stood the test of time." Malarky. The rules of golf were established when golf was a different game, played by a tiny subset of people, who were un-rushed and didn't have to worry about a course where we launch foursomes off the tee every 12 minutes. They had caddies who could tell them where their ball went and help find it, rather than have it be like an Easter Egg Hunt; or due to equipment you could see where your ball went because it didn't usually go that far.

[/quote]


Bayou, while I enjoyed reading your rant, I think it fair to note that the rules of golf are constantly being re-written, and constantly being further interpreted through decisions. They are therefore about as modern as they can be.

I understand that you don't appreciate them, and in some ways create your own rules as substitutes, but the problem isn't that the rules are old. The "problem" is, if I may be so bold, that the rules are demanding. (Which is just fine with me, although I am someone who has had occasion to hit more than one ball in a row in the water!)

[BuckyBadger]

[quote name='Bayou Kato' date='12 June 2010 - 09:00 AM' timestamp='1276351222' post='2504604']



I don't know about you guys, but if I hit a ball that looks good, but when I get up there I find it lying a foot past the OB stakes, I'm not going to drive back up to the frickin' tee box and hit my third, while a group of angry gents with metal clubs in their hands, who want to play on, stare at me like I just insulted their Mother. Get a life. I'm dropping back inbounds right there, and taking my third, and moving on. The rules need a refresh in light of what's advanced and changed in the last century, let alone the last decade.

[/quote]

If you are going to do this, you should at least be hitting four from here. It is a "Stroke AND distance" penalty after all. As for the lateral water scenario, it makes no sense to have a drop area. Hit from the tee again if you want.

Back to the OP, everyone has given you great advice. My big problem is taking putts while playing for money. If guys I'm playing with nonchalantly backhand a one footer and miss, I make sure they count it and I NEVER let them take putts. They can ask if its good, but I wouldn't give my own mother a downhill, left to right slider if there was dough on the line!

[Rockfish]

I would simply tell him that if he wants to play for money and bragging rights, he should play by the rules, and if he just wants to play to enjoy the outdoors and the company, he can play as he wishes.

 

 

 

 

[DrSchteeve]

[quote name='boo radley' date='11 June 2010 - 10:02 AM' timestamp='1276264970' post='2502687']
[quote name='actuck23' date='11 June 2010 - 08:30 AM' timestamp='1276259424' post='2502543']

My ball plugged and I lifted, cleaned it and[b][i] placed it[/i][/b] near the original spot, no closer to the hole. He got all bent out of shape and told me I had to play it down. I tried to explain the rule to him but he wouldn't listen. He later called that night and apologized and said he would always seek my advice and listen on rulings.

Point is, enjoy playing with your friends first and foremost. Don't let money or anything else get in the way of friendships and the game. Also, take the time out to teach your friend how to play right and it will be a better experience for the both of you.
[/quote]

I think you need to call your friend back, and apologize, yourself.

So my question to the OP remains -- you twice pointed out that he shouldn't be dropping where he was, and he proceeded anyway. Either he did not: a) hear you, or b) chose to ignore you for a number of reasons (he was mad, didn't feel you had credibility, etc). Which was it?

This seems like less of a 'rules' issue than a 'people' issue. I still maintain you'd be better off channeling your irritation towards improving your game so that you can beat him by 5 strokes a side, despite his advantageous drops.
[/quote]

I think he just doesn't understand the rules. I've played with these types that have played for years with their same foursome and they just get so used to rolling the ball, raking in putts that go 6 feet past the hole, dropping where they want, etc., that they don't even know the real rules.

As I said before, if it happens again I am simply going to follow him around while he looks for his ball(s), then as he's deciding where to drop I will make sure he clearly understands where he is supposed to drop. If he argues, I will suggest he play two balls and we will settle the argument later, or, that whatever bet we have going is off. Of course, even having to do this is quite annoying, since while I am making sure he follows the rules I could have been setting up over my shot, getting ready to play, etc.

I agree that some of my annoyment (my own word) relates to this fellow as a "people" issue since he is a little less than appropriate with some other social graces. For example, I call to invite him to fill in our foursome on a Wednesday, and he never returns the call but then calls me an hour before the round is about to start (on Sunday) to find out if the spot is still available.

[Bayou Kato]

 

If you are going to do this, you should at least be hitting four from here. It is a "Stroke AND distance" penalty after all. As for the lateral water scenario, it makes no sense to have a drop area. Hit from the tee again if you want.

 

 

Touche.

 

My own scoring aside ... I still believe that the rules do not reflect the state of the game played by the hoy polloy. I think the rules focus a great deal on what happens on the PGA or in USGA tournament golf and perhaps the equipment/technology environment changes; they're focused on ensuring that the game does not deteriorate into par being a joke. And that's fine by me. But I don't think the rules changes have in mind what happens on the average muni, or even the affordable club.

 

Maybe guys who can't shoot an 'honest 85' shouldn't be playing on the weekend. Or maybe courses could implement some "local rules" in an attempt to not so much protect the scorecard, but protect the golfer from the slings and arrows (or Titleists) of outraged players. And in today's world, allowing them to 'play through' doesn't provide much relief. Because by the time they do move through, the foursome behind them is likely ready to go too. As long as courses wrestle for funding and do so by trying to put more players through the course on each playable day, this is going to be an issue. Personally, I play for enjoyment. And having daggers shot into my back from the eyes of those guys behind me -- not to mention an occasion "oh, sorry ... didn't mean to hit it that well" -- that's not fun.

 

By the way ... I'm not totally useless with a weapon in my hand. I usually shoot in the mid-80s; with only a little cheating (as my wife says). So I guess that means I really shoot about 90.

[BuckyBadger]

Sorry. I personally feel that all out of bounds stakes or whatever should be played as a lateral water hazard unless it's a tournament. For the everyday golfer, this would speed up play, lower ones scores and, if they are posting for handicap purposes, get their handicap closer to what it should be.

 

I'm a 20 handicap that used to play to a four a few years ago, so I'm not totally useless either!

 

Cheers.