Was Karsten wrong - Stiff for everybody?

[Seve0992]

I think Karsten based his belief on Ping Man testing as well as the thought that the stiffer the shaft the closer the head would be to being in line with the grip and therefore the closer the result would be to what the swing dictated. If the shaft is flexing, bowing, and twisting, the liklihood is that the head would be "somewhere else". However, when dealing with individual players and all types of swings, it is totally possible that a weaker shaft could produce more accurate results simply because the flexing, bowing, and twisting counteracts where the club would be and puts it in a better position.

[jonwil]

Good thinking Seve. Intellectual; not glandular.
Refreshing after the ususal stiffer=tougher=me insinuation dribble.

[Conrad1953]

Well, I played with some buddies today and one of 'em who has about
the same SS as me (driver about 95) had some TM rac MBs in the bag
with Rifle 6.0s in them. He had one of the best iron ball striking days I've
seen out of him. Before today he was hitting BStone J38s with Rifle 5.0s.

We talked about it and he was of the opinion that impact, not swing speed
is what matters. I couldn't argue with the results. I would've thought those
shafts to be too stout for him, but not at all. Mishits may hurt more, but
otherwise I'm starting to believe stiffer is better and will go that way next
set.

[cb24]

I probably would have disagreed with this until my wife played with my MP68 blades with Dynalite stiff shafts (the light shaft helped no doubt). She actually was able to make pretty pretty good contact and get decent distance with the stiff shafts and able to hit it straight very well even with the less forgiving heads. We are going to go try out more clubs for her but I am thinking that at least regular flex is the way to go even with her slower swing speed.


Sidenote:
I used to play extra stiff x18's with graphite shafts and those were insane! Hitting it straight wasnt so difficult but distance control was all over the place. 30 yards difference in my 5iron was a common occurrence depending how much torque was on the club hitting between 190 and 220. After getting back to steel shafts I realized the lesser distance but the much improved control and reliability was worth it in those stiffer steel shafts. Graphite can be pretty fun to play with though:)

[Bob172]

gm,
I would recommend a session with a good clubfitter.
My swing speed is around 96 and I use regular steel shafts in all my clubs except the sand wedge.
I'm sure it all comes down to personal choice, but for me confidence in what I am using is most important.
[quote name='glacialmoraine' timestamp='1317842641' post='3629587']
I have been playing zz lite shafted ping eye2's my entire golf career. Karsten Solheim, at that time anyway, believed everyone should play stiff shafts, so eye2's were available in any flex you wanted as long as it was stiff.

Now, I am looking at other clubs and am wondering if the arguments Karsten made, that stiff shafts have lower dispersion so will be more accurate for any player, and that precision is more important than any incremental distance you might get from whippier shafts still hold true, or if he was a crank on that one.

Basically i've been shopping for irons with stiff shafts to replace what I have even though my driver swing speed is only 92 or so. I realize i might lose a small amount of distance but like the idea of more accuracy. I don't have any swing problems with having all stiff shafts now that I know of, I'm not fighting a slice more like fighting to keep my draw from becoming a hook.

Thoughts?

gm
[/quote]

[avrag]

My own experience tells me that the overall stiffness of iron shafts does not matter as much as the bend profile. My driver swing speed is about 95 to 98 mph, my 6-iron according to the Mizuno shaft optimiser around 76 to 78mph. The shaft optimiser always recommends Dynalie Gold XP, KBS Tour or Nippon 950, all in regular flex.
In the past three years, I have played iron sets with Dynalite R-300, DG R-300, DG S-300, Nippon 1050 S, Ping Z-Z65 and True Temper Uniflex for Callaway, which in the particular case of my set are DG S-300 softstepped. The resuts for all of these sets and the playabilty are pretty much identical for me. I have even played a few rounds with a friend's iron set, which has DG X-100 in them. Again, I could hit them well enough, maybe a little lower than my own irons, but there was not too much difference.
On the other hand, when trying to play two rounds with a demo set which had PX 5.0 in them, I simply wanted to cry, because to me, they felt like the proverbial telephone poles and I could get no decent ball flight with them. All the shots were considerably lower than with the DG X-100, even if that sound absurd. The feel and bend profile simply did not fit me, the overall stiffness did not to be as important.
So, yes, I think that Mr. Solheim was correct, in a way. Everybody can play stiff shafts, as long as the bend profile is right for them.

[Conrad1953]

[quote name='avrag' timestamp='1326565390' post='4084019']
My own experience tells me that the overall stiffness of iron shafts does not matter as much as the bend profile. My driver swing speed is about 95 to 98 mph, my 6-iron according to the Mizuno shaft optimiser around 76 to 78mph. The shaft optimiser always recommends Dynalie Gold XP, KBS Tour or Nippon 950, all in regular flex.
In the past three years, I have played iron sets with Dynalite R-300, DG R-300, DG S-300, Nippon 1050 S, Ping Z-Z65 and True Temper Uniflex for Callaway, which in the particular case of my set are DG S-300 softstepped. The resuts for all of these sets and the playabilty are pretty much identical for me. I have even played a few rounds with a friend's iron set, which has DG X-100 in them. Again, I could hit them well enough, maybe a little lower than my own irons, but there was not too much difference.
On the other hand, when trying to play two rounds with a demo set which had PX 5.0 in them, I simply wanted to cry, because to me, they felt like the proverbial telephone poles and I could get no decent ball flight with them. All the shots were considerably lower than with the DG X-100, even if that sound absurd. The feel and bend profile simply did not fit me, the overall stiffness did not to be as important.
So, yes, I think that Mr. Solheim was correct, in a way. Everybody can play stiff shafts, as long as the bend profile is right for them.
[/quote]

I think you're right on. Good post.

[hardten]

[quote name='glacialmoraine' timestamp='1317842641' post='3629587']
I have been playing zz lite shafted ping eye2's my entire golf career. Karsten Solheim, at that time anyway, believed everyone should play stiff shafts, so eye2's were available in any flex you wanted as long as it was stiff.

Now, I am looking at other clubs and am wondering if the arguments Karsten made, that stiff shafts have lower dispersion so will be more accurate for any player, and that precision is more important than any incremental distance you might get from whippier shafts still hold true, or if he was a crank on that one.

Basically i've been shopping for irons with stiff shafts to replace what I have even though my driver swing speed is only 92 or so. I realize i might lose a small amount of distance but like the idea of more accuracy. I don't have any swing problems with having all stiff shafts now that I know of, I'm not fighting a slice more like fighting to keep my draw from becoming a hook.

Thoughts?

gm
[/quote]
Keep using your stiffer shafts in order to help fight hook and direction. Distance loss would be minimal IF AT ALL. I will be 65 in 2 weeks and everytime I go a regular, flex in woods ,which to me is far more critical to direction AND distance than irons, I suffer.
I was told 25 years ago by my head pro and good friend that the difference between my APEX 3 (regular) and Apex 4 (stiff) wasn,t a big deal in irons and he was right. Gained no distance with 3s but did straighten out a bit with the Apex 4.
You failed to mention feel which to me is critical.If you prefer the softer feel of more flexible shafts than that is something to consider.

[ChaosTheory]

I don't agree with the conclusion that was drawn from Karsten Solheim's yardstick trick. He was able to properly load the yardstick in both cases. So of course the stiffer one generated more speed. But can the golfer properly load a stiffer shaft in order to get more distance as he seems to say? Often not. Or at least, there is a point of increasing stiffness where it fails. Heck if stiffer was better, he should have used XXX flex, right? Maybe there is something to his thinking regarding R and S flex, but the yardstick trick is not a good way to prove it.

[bladestriker]

[quote name='Snowman9000' timestamp='1334972681' post='4760890']
I don't agree with the conclusion that was drawn from Karsten Solheim's yardstick trick. He was able to properly load the yardstick in both cases. So of course the stiffer one generated more speed. But can the golfer properly load a stiffer shaft in order to get more distance as he seems to say? Often not. Or at least, there is a point of increasing stiffness where it fails. Heck if stiffer was better, he should have used XXX flex, right? Maybe there is something to his thinking regarding R and S flex, but the yardstick trick is not a good way to prove it.
[/quote]

I believe your body rotation and arm swing are loading the club

[mwmgolfx]

Personally in my testing, I've found that there is such a case as Too stiff in woods.

Used a Cobra S-400 with stiff shaft and kept losing distance badly over time. So tried the following.

I have a r7-425 9.5 Taylor made driver head that I put in several shafts in (all extended to 48"). Started with the original TP shaft regular flex - worked exception but broke extension in shaft end (best by far). 12-14 fairways with super distance

Then put Accra stiff shaft in. Couldn't hit anything but extremely low snap hooks. Had to open club up severely just to hit somewhat straight. (zero fairways - always extremely short right - totally unusable

Then put Matrix shaft in - regular+ - controlled - hit pretty good and reasonable flight but very poor distance. (6-8 fairways only 175-190 distance)

Put Aldila DVS-60 in - regular - went to more fairways (10-12 out of 14). and added 30-40 yards in distance. (currently hitting r+ (between regular and stiff) Superfly with Krank Head. and down to about 8-10+ fairways - + 2-4 in first cut - but added another 30-50 yards in distance._

But with irons, I'm not sure there. I hit stiff (soft-stepped) fujikora shafts in my Miuras. And stiff in my Square-twos. Both hit exceptionally well.

With my 3-5-7 woods, I couldn't hit the stiff shafts for the ping G-20s but murder the 5-7 g-20 regular shafts. 3 is very mixed - good bad days but still serious too short.

So for a driver shaft, I'm definitely of the opinion that it can be too stiff for someone to hit correctly. Personal experience has proved that extensively.

[ChaosTheory]

Absolutely, and irons too. Karsten was right about a lot of things. The things he was right about moved the whole industry. The stiff shaft idea was not one of them.

[SlowRain]

All I know is from my own experience. Now 58 and thought perhaps, using the "conventional" wisdom, that I ought to drop down to a regular flex shaft in my irons and woods. I bought new irons and woods this year and a week on the range made me realize I made a terrible mistake. I was hitting moon balls with everything and shorter distances than I had previously.

Ended up moving from Titleist AP2's to Ping i20's (yeah probably some difference there) but I had the Ping's made up with KBS Tour Shafts in S flex. Brought the ball flight back down and distance up (about 155+ with a 7 iron on a 85% effort swing). Put Adams XTB 3 and 5 wood and a F12 LS Driver in the bag with Fubuki S flex shafts. Again...better flight and a little more distance.

So...while opinions certainly vary...I am going with what works...will stay in a stiff flex for the time being.

[BENCHMADE]

Compared to PINGs stock shafts sstiff is better. I've always hit low torq R flex shafts in my drivers. Switched to PING , both K15 and G20 in R flex. No distance no consistency . Going to reshaft the K with something more in line with what I played in the past. Pings shafts have very high torq.

[happyroman]

[quote name='glacialmoraine' timestamp='1317842641' post='3629587']
I have been playing zz lite shafted ping eye2's my entire golf career. Karsten Solheim, at that time anyway, believed everyone should play stiff shafts, so eye2's were available in any flex you wanted as long as it was stiff.

Now, I am looking at other clubs and am wondering if the arguments Karsten made, that stiff shafts have lower dispersion so will be more accurate for any player, and that precision is more important than any incremental distance you might get from whippier shafts still hold true, or if he was a crank on that one.

Basically i've been shopping for irons with stiff shafts to replace what I have even though my driver swing speed is only 92 or so. I realize i might lose a small amount of distance but like the idea of more accuracy. I don't have any swing problems with having all stiff shafts now that I know of, I'm not fighting a slice more like fighting to keep my draw from becoming a hook.

Thoughts?

gm
[/quote]

No, he actually was right. And, everyone should wear a size seven shoe.

Sorry to be an a$$. If everyone had the exact same swing, then they could all play the same shafts. But then, who's to say that stiff would be the best for everyone?

There are so many variables to the swing, such as clubhead speed, tempo, timing, transition, whether one swings smooth or grips it and rips it. etc., that the shafts must be matched to the individual. And I think we have just started to scratch the surface of what it takes to determine the best flex shaft for an individual's swing.

As technology improves, more and more advances will be made in shaft fitting. There was a time when matching sets by swing weight was state of the art. Now, due to the availability of newer technology, we can match for MOI. We can also match sets by the frequencies of the shafts and set the frequency to any slope you want, from a standard Brunswick slope to a flat line or zero slope.

Things are going to get really interesting over the next few years, IMHO.

[tarheel33]

I find it funny reading these numerous posts that people like to cite one example as if that one specific example proves all else (which anyone with any logical know how knows is a horrible arguement i.e just because one apple on the tree is rotten it does not mean every apple coming from said tree will be rotten). Maybe its the the countless hours for the last month I have spent studying for the LSAT that have me laughing at the ridiculous logic, but regardless these posts are full of assuming that what is true of parts of a whole is true of the whole itself ( which again is flawed reasoning).

[havoc01]

everyone should play stiff because limp just doesnt cut it

[mwmgolfx]

In my own experience with a driver, I would tend to disagree. First off, I'm 67 and don't swing as fast as I used to. Swing speed varies between 88 and 95 - sharp pull not smooth transition.

I was using a stiff shafted Cobra driver and started losing noticeable distance (went from 240-250 to 190-200). Experimented with a new driver, not much difference until I extended the length (R shaft). Felt whippy but when I controlled the swing, went seriously longer (averaged about 260 I'm using actualGPS yardage measurements on everything) until I broke the extension several times and left part in the shaft. So I had the driver reshafted with a measured (frequency) Stiff shaft (ACCRA). I found that i couldn't hit that stiff shaft more than 100 yards and 90+% of the time, it was sharp low duck hook. Couldn't hit it straight no matter what. Was fitted with another "softer stiff" shaft - Matrix. Hit it straight but distance was at best 200-210. Went to Aldila DVS-60 regular shaft and distance now up to 225. (and reasonably straight - could hit hook/fade, whatever usually on command).

Switched drivers to Krank with regular shaft Superfly 50 gram and now up to 240-245 (220 carry) versus old 190-200 carry.

So in my case, stiff shaft lost distance and in a couple of cases became totally uncontrollable. In fact, I'm actually considering going to a "softer" shaft but not super soft (maybe senior flex) and letting it flex with a more smooth swing.

Irons are still stiff but i'm starting to lose distance and control with them (often lose right - push) or pull hook left ). Thinking strongly that some "softer" shafts might give me better distance.

[TheLondoner]

Hi, I'm new to the site and not exactly an authority on golf, but I've just picked up a set of Eye 2 irons with ZZ Lite shafts and have been hitting them longer and straighter than anything else I've tried so far! I had been using reg flex in my irons and woods, but after my experience with the Eye 2's I'm going to give stiff shafts a go in my woods too.

Really like the ZZ lite shafts BTW. Didn't even know what shafts I had until I emailed the serial no to Ping, I thought they felt great and was really surprised to find out they were stiff.

[Ri_Redneck]

[quote name='gvogel' timestamp='1324766562' post='3984423']
[quote name='tampay' timestamp='1324752161' post='3983907']
I'm not going to bother making a super long post with all my thoughts because that would be a page long haha, but pretty much everything you said I disagree with. Karsten had it right IMO. I agree with an earlier post by Cwebb.

In a nutshell - IMO the stiffer a shaft can be made relative to its weight, the more effective it will be. We "control" the club head with the shaft. If the shaft is drooping / twisting / forward bending before impact (which almost all shafts do including most X stiff shafts to some degree) the head will be unstable and very hard to repeat a center hit. If more faster swing speed players / pros would try a stiffer shaft that would keep the head stable, I believe they would benefit greatly from it by tightening up that dispersion.

You will indeed hit it higher and spin it more with a weaker shaft because the forward bending is adding loft at impact. If you where to take a X stiff shaft tipped back and give it to a slow swing speed player, they could take one less club and achieve the same effective loft at impact because the shaft will not be forward bending like crazy leading to a more consistent hit. We could put a telephone pole in a hosel and create the words most consistent golf club. The ball would still get up and spin back off greens plenty with a nice downward strike due to LOFT. We don't need a shaft to help us because of that.

These ladies / regular flex shafts are a joke IMO. Tiger woods couldn't control those let alone the target market. For the very people who need more help with a consistent strike, we give them the most INCONSISTENT shaft possible. What we should be doing it giving them a STIFFER shaft with more LOFT. That will give them a consistent hit with the appropriate height. As you can see I don't agree with modern fitting that is giving people with slow swing speeds these noodles. We should be giving everyone a X stiff shaft and changing the loft on drivers and adding more hybrids / GI irons for the slow swinger.

That's all my opinion, just like you and fitters have one. One I disagree with.

Just a quick thought. If we where playing tee ball and I tee'd the ball up and gave you a bat, put a red dot on the bat and said hit the ball right on the red dot. Would you like your chances more with a whippy, flexy, droopy, twisty, weak bat - or a normal XXXX stiff no flex bat ?

That's all without getting into how we as humans subconsciously think about and react to what is given to us.
[/quote]

[b]So, basically what you are saying is that feel has no importance in the modern game of golf.[/b]

Basically, if you are playing a stiff or extra stiff shaft in a TaylorMade driver, you probably don't even realize that you are swinging a regular or stiff shaft.

Also, shaft stiffness also relates to the torque in the shaft. A little torque helps square the face. Slower swing players can use that help.

Like most things in life, actual best practice is more complicated than a hard and fast rule.
[/quote]

Accuracy-wise, No. Happiness-wise, Yes.

BT

[Ri_Redneck]

No one seems to get what "Feel" means to golfers today. Think about the adjectives used to describe feel on this forum - Smooth, Silky Smooth. Buttery, Nice, etc. They are talking about the LACK of feedback that they are getting compared to a stiffer/lower torque shaft. Pros play stiff/low torque shafts because they like to know what they did when they just hit that ball. They want to immediately know if they hit it high or low on the clubface or on the heel or toe. So, feel for the amature golfer can mean something completely different than what it means for the pro golfer.

The same argument came up many years ago when cavity backs came out. The pros were staying with musclebacks because they get more feedback from the club. Feedback is what the accomplished golfer used/uses to get better.

Now, here's another thing. Anyone here ever seen one of those trick-shot guys hit a ball using a clubhead mounted on a rubber hose? I've seen it many times. They adjust their timing so that the clubhead reaches the ball with the hose/shaft fully extended. There is really very little lag in the hose at all except when it is drooping over his shoulder in the backswing. If you swing ANY shaft like that, they will all hit about the same. However, when most of us are swinging a club, we are using the shaft to accelerate the clubhead and not just to swing it in the attempt to get maximum distance. I've hit driver shafts from 220 cpm range to the 290cpm range and with torques from 1.8* to 11*. If you adjust your swing, you can hit any of them reasonably well. What I have always looked for in golf shafts is a balance of useable feedback, optimal performance and consistency. Not necessarily in that order. I have settled on what works best for me. People can recommend all the shafts they want for a golfer, but in the end, the golfer has to make the decision.

BT

[ALIF]

I'll bet Bobby Jones's hickory shafts were not very stiff, but he could still smack one 300 yards.

[Badgergolfer2]

IMO, it depends upon your swing. If you have a quick transition you need a stiffer shaft but if you have a smoother swing you can get away with a softer shaft. Thats why you cant go with a cut and dried rule that any flex is right for every swing. Ive always been a believer that you should go with the softest shaft that you can control. Obviously, if a shaft is flopping all over the place on you, its not one that you can control. Stiff isnt going to be any good for you if you cant load the shaft properly and it releases too soon for you. Just as regular flex isnt going to be any good if the club is releasing too soon and causing you to hit pulls or duck hooks.
For me, r-flex is the way to go. Ive tried stiff in the past and everything ends up being low and slightly to the right.
I have all the respect in the world for Karsten Solheim but on this one Id say his opinon means little because he didnt have the modern technology that we have today such as trackman. In his day he used the best information that he had but Id bet that if he were alive today, he would have a different opinion.

[rybo]

A couple of comments.

I believe the premise Karsten had of stiffer is better to be correct. Where he failed is in the one size fits all shaft fitting. Sometimes engineers are just too practical and having different shaft flexes was probably low on his priority list. The idea of you should play the stiffest shaft for your swing and swing speed that produces the best accuracy is correct. I've seen way too many players of all ages and skill levels get on this light weight, softer flexing shafts and watched their games so sour.

Someone mentioned Ben Hogan, he played extra stiff shafts tipped an additional 2". He wanted the shaft to be where he put it, with zero shaft distortion of any kind. Hogan was rather small in stature and was not overly built; and had no problems with distance. But he was definitely one of the most accurate players in the history of the game!

Bobby Jones could hit 300 yard drives, occasionally! Interesting note his driver shaft was around 200grams! And if you've never hit a hickory shafted club before, they are in no way whippy, much the opposite they are rather stout. You have to go after it otherwise the club just doesn't perform. On the Bobby Jones video he did, he's hitting 4 woods from 245 yards out and he is literally surrounding the hole like someone is doing chipping practice. Hickory shafted, wood head and a very crappy ball by today's standards.

I've been toying around with the steel driver shaft thanks to ROBOPTI, and interestingly I had a two older gentleman hit the club with an X100 tipped 2 1/2", now were talking low swing speeds and one has a bit of a homemade swing, well both hit the snot out of that driver. Admittedly their first two shots were short popcorn fades, but every shot after that was really good. As good as their own drivers! This just happen two days ago so it's fresh in my mind.

[Conrad1953]

[quote name='Gaijin_Golfer' timestamp='1346227766' post='5553453']
IMO, it depends upon your swing. If you have a quick transition you need a stiffer shaft but if you have a smoother swing you can get away with a softer shaft. Thats why you cant go with a cut and dried rule that any flex is right for every swing. Ive always been a believer that you should go with the softest shaft that you can control. Obviously, if a shaft is flopping all over the place on you, its not one that you can control. Stiff isnt going to be any good for you if you cant load the shaft properly and it releases too soon for you. Just as regular flex isnt going to be any good if the club is releasing too soon and causing you to hit pulls or duck hooks.
For me, r-flex is the way to go. Ive tried stiff in the past and everything ends up being low and slightly to the right.
I have all the respect in the world for Karsten Solheim but on this one Id say his opinon means little because he didnt have the modern technology that we have today such as trackman. In his day he used the best information that he had but Id bet that if he were alive today, he would have a different opinion.
[/quote]
[quote name='Gaijin_Golfer' timestamp='1346227766' post='5553453']
IMO, it depends upon your swing. If you have a quick transition you need a stiffer shaft but if you have a smoother swing you can get away with a softer shaft. Thats why you cant go with a cut and dried rule that any flex is right for every swing. Ive always been a believer that you should go with the softest shaft that you can control. Obviously, if a shaft is flopping all over the place on you, its not one that you can control. Stiff isnt going to be any good for you if you cant load the shaft properly and it releases too soon for you. Just as regular flex isnt going to be any good if the club is releasing too soon and causing you to hit pulls or duck hooks.
For me, r-flex is the way to go. Ive tried stiff in the past and everything ends up being low and slightly to the right.
I have all the respect in the world for Karsten Solheim but on this one Id say his opinon means little because he didnt have the modern technology that we have today such as trackman. In his day he used the best information that he had but Id bet that if he were alive today, he would have a different opinion.
[/quote]

I agree. I did some experimenting this summer with stiffer shafts.
For my swing (driver ss 95 w/slow, smooth transition; R flex works
better. My tempo gets messed up with stiff shafts because I tend
force things.

Also, a high launch with longer carries works better on the courses
I play at home where the fairways are lush and wind isn't a big
issue most of the time.

[596]

I'd have to agree to use the stiffer shafts, until a point of no return. When you lose "alot" of distance you may need a less stiff shaft. I have a 100mph driver swing speed and recently went from stiff to x-stiff in my driver and 4 wood. I was playing a stiff shaft in the driver and beleive it or not a regular flex in my 3 wood and 5 wood. The regular flex keeps me from over swinging, which is easy to do with fairway woods. So I went with the FW in regular flex to mentally control my swing from the fairway. however. when teed up with a driver and able to hit it long, the X-flex fits my swing better then a stiff. I've not hit the x flex 4 wood but 20 times on the range, but flight was good and it was easy to hit. The shaft felt more in control with the X flex.

[bullrambler]

[quote name='glacialmoraine' timestamp='1317842641' post='3629587']
I have been playing zz lite shafted ping eye2's my entire golf career. Karsten Solheim, at that time anyway, believed everyone should play stiff shafts, so eye2's were available in any flex you wanted as long as it was stiff.

Now, I am looking at other clubs and am wondering if the arguments Karsten made, that stiff shafts have lower dispersion so will be more accurate for any player, and that precision is more important than any incremental distance you might get from whippier shafts still hold true, or if he was a crank on that one.

Basically i've been shopping for irons with stiff shafts to replace what I have even though my driver swing speed is only 92 or so. I realize i might lose a small amount of distance but like the idea of more accuracy. I don't have any swing problems with having all stiff shafts now that I know of, I'm not fighting a slice more like fighting to keep my draw from becoming a hook.

Thoughts?

gm
[/quote] As a person matures the swing goes through some changes... After three decades, it can be expected that the swing speed and flexibility may decrease. This can mean a change in equipment can be a bonus.

[jperkins12]

[quote name='dlygrisse' timestamp='1317845027' post='3629863']
I always disagreed with it, btw more flexible shafts wont necessarily cause you to hit the ball farther, they generally allow you to hit the ball higher and with a touch more spin, so if you have a low swing speed the ball may stay in the air longer...hence go farther, but a higher swing speed player could lose distance because they will have too much spin and too high a trajectory.

The correct answer is the shaft should be fit for the player. It is weird that someone who built the who company on customer fitting didn't believe in one of the key elements....but with irons it is probably less of an issue than woods.
[/quote]

Everyone knows the shaft should fit the player, but it is the fitting process and end results that is being discussed. There will always be an issue as to what proper fitting is. Why not give us your opinion as to detailed proper fitting technique?

[jperkins12]

[quote name='Ri_Redneck' timestamp='1345145904' post='5484148']
No one seems to get what "Feel" means to golfers today. Think about the adjectives used to describe feel on this forum - Smooth, Silky Smooth. Buttery, Nice, etc. They are talking about the LACK of feedback that they are getting compared to a stiffer/lower torque shaft. Pros play stiff/low torque shafts because they like to know what they did when they just hit that ball. They want to immediately know if they hit it high or low on the clubface or on the heel or toe. So, feel for the amature golfer can mean something completely different than what it means for the pro golfer.

The same argument came up many years ago when cavity backs came out. The pros were staying with musclebacks because they get more feedback from the club. Feedback is what the accomplished golfer used/uses to get better.

Now, here's another thing. Anyone here ever seen one of those trick-shot guys hit a ball using a clubhead mounted on a rubber hose? I've seen it many times. They adjust their timing so that the clubhead reaches the ball with the hose/shaft fully extended. There is really very little lag in the hose at all except when it is drooping over his shoulder in the backswing. If you swing ANY shaft like that, they will all hit about the same. However, when most of us are swinging a club, we are using the shaft to accelerate the clubhead and not just to swing it in the attempt to get maximum distance. I've hit driver shafts from 220 cpm range to the 290cpm range and with torques from 1.8* to 11*. If you adjust your swing, you can hit any of them reasonably well. What I have always looked for in golf shafts is a balance of useable feedback, optimal performance and consistency. Not necessarily in that order. I have settled on what works best for me. People can recommend all the shafts they want for a golfer, but in the end, the golfer has to make the decision.

BT
[/quote] I would have to say that this post is probably more accurate than any other that I have read since joining this site. However, it does not help me in reaching a conclusion at to what shaft I should be using. I suppose there is no substitute in experimentation, which seems to take an eternity, if you do not have access to unlimited clubs and testing.
Any ideas on the best approach for this?

[ennead]

[quote name='jperkins12' timestamp='1347295338' post='5616989']
[quote name='Ri_Redneck' timestamp='1345145904' post='5484148']
No one seems to get what "Feel" means to golfers today. Think about the adjectives used to describe feel on this forum - Smooth, Silky Smooth. Buttery, Nice, etc. They are talking about the LACK of feedback that they are getting compared to a stiffer/lower torque shaft. Pros play stiff/low torque shafts because they like to know what they did when they just hit that ball. They want to immediately know if they hit it high or low on the clubface or on the heel or toe. So, feel for the amature golfer can mean something completely different than what it means for the pro golfer.

The same argument came up many years ago when cavity backs came out. The pros were staying with musclebacks because they get more feedback from the club. Feedback is what the accomplished golfer used/uses to get better.

Now, here's another thing. Anyone here ever seen one of those trick-shot guys hit a ball using a clubhead mounted on a rubber hose? I've seen it many times. They adjust their timing so that the clubhead reaches the ball with the hose/shaft fully extended. There is really very little lag in the hose at all except when it is drooping over his shoulder in the backswing. If you swing ANY shaft like that, they will all hit about the same. However, when most of us are swinging a club, we are using the shaft to accelerate the clubhead and not just to swing it in the attempt to get maximum distance. I've hit driver shafts from 220 cpm range to the 290cpm range and with torques from 1.8* to 11*. If you adjust your swing, you can hit any of them reasonably well. What I have always looked for in golf shafts is a balance of useable feedback, optimal performance and consistency. Not necessarily in that order. I have settled on what works best for me. People can recommend all the shafts they want for a golfer, but in the end, the golfer has to make the decision.

BT
[/quote] I would have to say that this post is probably more accurate than any other that I have read since joining this site. However, it does not help me in reaching a conclusion at to what shaft I should be using. I suppose there is no substitute in experimentation, which seems to take an eternity, if you do not have access to unlimited clubs and testing.
Any ideas on the best approach for this?
[/quote]

If you don't have access to a golf store or a decent pro at your course, you can try this site [url="http://www.shaftfit.com/front/"]http://www.shaftfit.com/front/[/url]. It will tell you what you should get based on your opinions of your game . Not the best, but there you go...