Was Karsten wrong - Stiff for everybody?

[glacialmoraine]

I have been playing zz lite shafted ping eye2's my entire golf career. Karsten Solheim, at that time anyway, believed everyone should play stiff shafts, so eye2's were available in any flex you wanted as long as it was stiff.

 

Now, I am looking at other clubs and am wondering if the arguments Karsten made, that stiff shafts have lower dispersion so will be more accurate for any player, and that precision is more important than any incremental distance you might get from whippier shafts still hold true, or if he was a crank on that one.

 

Basically i've been shopping for irons with stiff shafts to replace what I have even though my driver swing speed is only 92 or so. I realize i might lose a small amount of distance but like the idea of more accuracy. I don't have any swing problems with having all stiff shafts now that I know of, I'm not fighting a slice more like fighting to keep my draw from becoming a hook.

 

Thoughts?

 

gm

[dlygrisse]

I always disagreed with it, btw more flexible shafts wont necessarily cause you to hit the ball farther, they generally allow you to hit the ball higher and with a touch more spin, so if you have a low swing speed the ball may stay in the air longer...hence go farther, but a higher swing speed player could lose distance because they will have too much spin and too high a trajectory.

The correct answer is the shaft should be fit for the player. It is weird that someone who built the who company on customer fitting didn't believe in one of the key elements....but with irons it is probably less of an issue than woods.

[SurfinTurf]

I believe Karsten's thought was the stiffer the shaft the better the distance. There's an interesting video somewhere where he pops a mable in the air off the end of a yardstick thats extended off a table top. He changes the amount the yardstick is extended off the table to affect the stiffness. The less it was extended, the more it would kick and the marble would fly dramatically higher. It was a pretty convincing demonstration. Made me reconsider the idea that softer shafts kick more.

[GolfMonster09]

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v9JyLzMhx8Q"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v9JyLzMhx8Q[/url]

Here is the video of Karsten's yard stick demonstration. It is toward the end of the video. The man really was brilliant.

[Cwing]

How long ago was this? Shafts tech has come very far as has most other tech since his time so maybe he was right based on shaft tech of the time. Today quality specs and tolerances are very tight.

[SurfinTurf]

[quote name='Cwing' timestamp='1318338084' post='3656525']
How long ago was this? Shafts tech has come very far as has most other tech since his time so maybe he was right based on shaft tech of the time. Today quality specs and tolerances are very tight.
[/quote]

Agreed. But there's a lot of contradictory fitting advice out there, which is fine, just different schools of thought. Haven't you ever been told to play the softest shafts you can control? Well, this is the opposing school of thought.

[AC-Golf]

Just my thoughts... but i think there is something to playing stiffer shafts as long as you have the strength/swingspeed to flex them enough. If you can't flex them enough, you'll lose distance. But if can flex and reg and a stiff, i say play the stiff.

[PKMillerJr]

[quote name='glacialmoraine' timestamp='1317842641' post='3629587']
I have been playing zz lite shafted ping eye2's my entire golf career. Karsten Solheim, at that time anyway, believed everyone should play stiff shafts, so eye2's were available in any flex you wanted as long as it was stiff.

Now, I am looking at other clubs and am wondering if the arguments Karsten made, that stiff shafts have lower dispersion so will be more accurate for any player, and that precision is more important than any incremental distance you might get from whippier shafts still hold true, or if he was a crank on that one.

Basically i've been shopping for irons with stiff shafts to replace what I have even though my driver swing speed is only 92 or so. I realize i might lose a small amount of distance but like the idea of more accuracy. I don't have any swing problems with having all stiff shafts now that I know of, I'm not fighting a slice more like fighting to keep my draw from becoming a hook.

Thoughts?

gm
[/quote]


Old test done either in Golf Digest or Golf Magazine showed that if you are strong enough to hit a stiff flex in irons, you will hit them farther and straighter than regular flex. This was not true with woods. Most flexible you can control brings the most distance in woods. Article was years ago -- maybe in the 90's.

[puttingmatt]

In the era of Karsten Solheim, I believe he was correct. The yardstick
is a physics trick !!! That said, remember, He had no trackman data to
play around with. All in all, Karsten was ahead of his time. He is the father
of cavity back design !!! A real innovator of modern club design !!!!

[stonecutter908]

Interesting ... Never heard this before.

[maverick]

[size="3"]Being a real 'senior' here I will add some info. About 10 years ago I was told I should go to a senior shaft. I did and never hit the ball very far. I tried several different shafts/heads and ended up back with regular graphite shafts. One theory is use the whippiest shaft you can. Greg Norman says hit the stiffest you can. I agree with Greg. I say this after going backand forth with different flex shafts for years. Now I am 64 and still hit regular shafts, but steel instead of graphite. Every time I have gone through this I hit the stiffer shaft farther. I hit them all straight, just not far enough. So maybe he was partially right. [/size]

[Cwebb]

If you're looking to play precision golf with as a tight of dispersion as possible, it doesn't make sense to play a shaft that's bending and twisting a lot.

Some of the ladies graphites are a comedy show. When you can softly waggle a club and feel it flexing and torquing all over the place, it doesn't matter if your driver swing speed is 60mph, a shaft that moves that much couldn't possibly produce the tightest consistency and dispersion. Imagine what would happen with that wet noodle when a player happens to drop kick a drive.....could go anywhere.

I'm a believer in most cases of "when in doubt", go with the firmer flex. Of course only after a full fitting and testing. If it comes down to two flexes that perform very close, go with the firmer one for the best dispersion...unless you just hate the feel of it.

[starsail85]

The softer it is the more the shaft has unloaded and bowed forwards into impact, so I agree with playin stiff shafts

[maverick]

[quote name='Cwebb' timestamp='1324358284' post='3964011']
If you're looking to play precision golf with as a tight of dispersion as possible, it doesn't make sense to play a shaft that's bending and twisting a lot.

Some of the ladies graphites are a comedy show. When you can softly waggle a club and feel it flexing and torquing all over the place, it doesn't matter if your driver swing speed is 60mph, a shaft that moves that much couldn't possibly produce the tightest consistency and dispersion. Imagine what would happen with that wet noodle when a player happens to drop kick a drive.....could go anywhere.

I'm a believer in most cases of "when in doubt", go with the firmer flex. Of course only after a full fitting and testing. If it comes down to two flexes that perform very close, go with the firmer one for the best dispersion...unless you just hate the feel of it.
[/quote]


When I was playing graphite I bought a set of Big Bertha irons in r shafts. The heads were huge and weighed a ton and the shafts felt very weak. It felt like an anvil on a noodle. I swear I could not hit a green from 100yds. It was hard to tell where the heads were going to fly. The shortest time I ever owned a set of irons.

[gvogel]

I would like to argue the counter point here.

When I get a shaft that is too stiff for me and my swing speed, I tend to force the shot and get too quick.

I find that with a "correct" shaft, which is between R and S for my 94 mph ss, I have a better feel for hitting shots. I practice a lot, and I can hit fades and draws when desired. But, if a shaft is too stiff, I lose that ability.

also, it is nice to be able to take something off a shot - say hit a 7-iron 135 yards. A softer shaft makes that ability to play shots easier.

So - get the right shaft for your game.

Karsten was wrong. golf is not pure science; there is an art to it as well.

[tampay]

[quote name='gvogel' timestamp='1324740846' post='3983321']
I would like to argue the counter point here.

When I get a shaft that is too stiff for me and my swing speed, I tend to force the shot and get too quick.

I find that with a "correct" shaft, which is between R and S for my 94 mph ss, I have a better feel for hitting shots. I practice a lot, and I can hit fades and draws when desired. But, if a shaft is too stiff, I lose that ability.

also, it is nice to be able to take something off a shot - say hit a 7-iron 135 yards. A softer shaft makes that ability to play shots easier.

So - get the right shaft for your game.

Karsten was wrong. golf is not pure science; there is an art to it as well.
[/quote]

I'm not going to bother making a super long post with all my thoughts because that would be a page long haha, but pretty much everything you said I disagree with. Karsten had it right IMO. I agree with an earlier post by Cwebb.

In a nutshell - IMO the stiffer a shaft can be made relative to its weight, the more effective it will be. We "control" the club head with the shaft. If the shaft is drooping / twisting / forward bending before impact (which almost all shafts do including most X stiff shafts to some degree) the head will be unstable and very hard to repeat a center hit. If more faster swing speed players / pros would try a stiffer shaft that would keep the head stable, I believe they would benefit greatly from it by tightening up that dispersion.

You will indeed hit it higher and spin it more with a weaker shaft because the forward bending is adding loft at impact. If you where to take a X stiff shaft tipped back and give it to a slow swing speed player, they could take one less club and achieve the same effective loft at impact because the shaft will not be forward bending like crazy leading to a more consistent hit. We could put a telephone pole in a hosel and create the words most consistent golf club. The ball would still get up and spin back off greens plenty with a nice downward strike due to LOFT. We don't need a shaft to help us because of that.

These ladies / regular flex shafts are a joke IMO. Tiger woods couldn't control those let alone the target market. For the very people who need more help with a consistent strike, we give them the most INCONSISTENT shaft possible. What we should be doing it giving them a STIFFER shaft with more LOFT. That will give them a consistent hit with the appropriate height. As you can see I don't agree with modern fitting that is giving people with slow swing speeds these noodles. We should be giving everyone a X stiff shaft and changing the loft on drivers and adding more hybrids / GI irons for the slow swinger.

That's all my opinion, just like you and fitters have one. One I disagree with.

Just a quick thought. If we where playing tee ball and I tee'd the ball up and gave you a bat, put a red dot on the bat and said hit the ball right on the red dot. Would you like your chances more with a whippy, flexy, droopy, twisty, weak bat - or a normal XXXX stiff no flex bat ?

That's all without getting into how we as humans subconsciously think about and react to what is given to us.

[KYMAR]

[quote name='tampay' timestamp='1324752161' post='3983907']
[quote name='gvogel' timestamp='1324740846' post='3983321']
I would like to argue the counter point here.

When I get a shaft that is too stiff for me and my swing speed, I tend to force the shot and get too quick.

I find that with a "correct" shaft, which is between R and S for my 94 mph ss, I have a better feel for hitting shots. I practice a lot, and I can hit fades and draws when desired. But, if a shaft is too stiff, I lose that ability.

also, it is nice to be able to take something off a shot - say hit a 7-iron 135 yards. A softer shaft makes that ability to play shots easier.

So - get the right shaft for your game.

Karsten was wrong. golf is not pure science; there is an art to it as well.
[/quote]

[b]I'm not going to bother making a super long post [/b]with all my thoughts because that would be a page long haha, but pretty much everything you said I disagree with. Karsten had it right IMO. I agree with an earlier post by Cwebb.

In a nutshell - IMO the stiffer a shaft can be made relative to its weight, the more effective it will be. We "control" the club head with the shaft. If the shaft is drooping / twisting / forward bending before impact (which almost all shafts do including most X stiff shafts to some degree) the head will be unstable and very hard to repeat a center hit. If more faster swing speed players / pros would try a stiffer shaft that would keep the head stable, I believe they would benefit greatly from it by tightening up that dispersion.

You will indeed hit it higher and spin it more with a weaker shaft because the forward bending is adding loft at impact. If you where to take a X stiff shaft tipped back and give it to a slow swing speed player, they could take one less club and achieve the same effective loft at impact because the shaft will not be forward bending like crazy leading to a more consistent hit. We could put a telephone pole in a hosel and create the words most consistent golf club. The ball would still get up and spin back off greens plenty with a nice downward strike due to LOFT. We don't need a shaft to help us because of that.

These ladies / regular flex shafts are a joke IMO. Tiger woods couldn't control those let alone the target market. For the very people who need more help with a consistent strike, we give them the most INCONSISTENT shaft possible. What we should be doing it giving them a STIFFER shaft with more LOFT. That will give them a consistent hit with the appropriate height. As you can see I don't agree with modern fitting that is giving people with slow swing speeds these noodles. We should be giving everyone a X stiff shaft and changing the loft on drivers and adding more hybrids / GI irons for the slow swinger.

That's all my opinion, just like you and fitters have one. One I disagree with.

Just a quick thought. If we where playing tee ball and I tee'd the ball up and gave you a bat, put a red dot on the bat and said hit the ball right on the red dot. Would you like your chances more with a whippy, flexy, droopy, twisty, weak bat - or a normal XXXX stiff no flex bat ?

That's all without getting into how we as humans subconsciously think about and react to what is given to us.
[/quote]

Wow, I cant tell you how glad I am you decided [i]against [/i]the Super long post.

[tampay]

[quote name='KYMAR' timestamp='1324752814' post='3983935']
Wow, I cant tell you how glad I am you decided [i]against [/i]the Super long post.
[/quote] Haha. Pretty short actually. If you want to get in depth on this subject it would be a page long. For me anyway.   

[Tertius]

^^^ Me too.

[KYMAR]

[quote name='tampay' timestamp='1324753529' post='3983973']
[quote name='KYMAR' timestamp='1324752814' post='3983935']
Wow, I cant tell you how glad I am you decided [i]against [/i]the Super long post.
[/quote] Haha. Pretty short actually. If you want to get in depth on this subject it would be a page long. For me anyway.
[/quote]



Actually I agree with most of what you had to say.Stiffer is better in most cases. The only issue i have a bit of a problem with is the release of the player in question. A lot of lag and a late release will have quite a bit to do with forward shaft bending at impact. Two swings that max out at 60mph with the same shaft can look very different and perform very differently on the ball at impact.

[gvogel]

[quote name='tampay' timestamp='1324752161' post='3983907']


I'm not going to bother making a super long post with all my thoughts because that would be a page long haha, but pretty much everything you said I disagree with. Karsten had it right IMO. I agree with an earlier post by Cwebb.

In a nutshell - IMO the stiffer a shaft can be made relative to its weight, the more effective it will be. We "control" the club head with the shaft. If the shaft is drooping / twisting / forward bending before impact (which almost all shafts do including most X stiff shafts to some degree) the head will be unstable and very hard to repeat a center hit. If more faster swing speed players / pros would try a stiffer shaft that would keep the head stable, I believe they would benefit greatly from it by tightening up that dispersion.

You will indeed hit it higher and spin it more with a weaker shaft because the forward bending is adding loft at impact. If you where to take a X stiff shaft tipped back and give it to a slow swing speed player, they could take one less club and achieve the same effective loft at impact because the shaft will not be forward bending like crazy leading to a more consistent hit. We could put a telephone pole in a hosel and create the words most consistent golf club. The ball would still get up and spin back off greens plenty with a nice downward strike due to LOFT. We don't need a shaft to help us because of that.

These ladies / regular flex shafts are a joke IMO. Tiger woods couldn't control those let alone the target market. For the very people who need more help with a consistent strike, we give them the most INCONSISTENT shaft possible. What we should be doing it giving them a STIFFER shaft with more LOFT. That will give them a consistent hit with the appropriate height. As you can see I don't agree with modern fitting that is giving people with slow swing speeds these noodles. We should be giving everyone a X stiff shaft and changing the loft on drivers and adding more hybrids / GI irons for the slow swinger.

That's all my opinion, just like you and fitters have one. One I disagree with.

Just a quick thought. If we where playing tee ball and I tee'd the ball up and gave you a bat, put a red dot on the bat and said hit the ball right on the red dot. Would you like your chances more with a whippy, flexy, droopy, twisty, weak bat - or a normal XXXX stiff no flex bat ?

That's all without getting into how we as humans subconsciously think about and react to what is given to us.
[/quote]

So, basically what you are saying is that feel has no importance in the modern game of golf.

Basically, if you are playing a stiff or extra stiff shaft in a TaylorMade driver, you probably don't even realize that you are swinging a regular or stiff shaft.

Also, shaft stiffness also relates to the torque in the shaft. A little torque helps square the face. Slower swing players can use that help.

Like most things in life, actual best practice is more complicated than a hard and fast rule.

[Shambles]

I agree with Gvogel.

There are limits to everything and also a range of utility. Excessive soft does not work and neither does excessive stiff. Complicate the discussion by a lack of standards as to what constitutes stiff, regular and soft, and we have a wealth of confusion. The limits are not a good place.

I have seen the Eye 2's with original shafts used satisfactorily by Golfers from outright beginner to budding pros, and even some new pros and the differences in performance was always in how well they used them. Karsten put together a set of clubs that was good for a very large number of people. Stiff enough to be stable and flexible enough to be long.


Shambles

[MadGolfer76]

Interesting how black and white the discussion is. Some say "yes," go stiffer, others say no. It is interesting that what is being debated is [i]which[/i] it supposedly should be, rather than observing that one fitting philosophy for all golfers is flawed in and of itself. Maybe one philosophy holds true...for a particular golfer...but I can't imagine there is any truth to one philosophy being generalizable to all or even the majority of golfers.

[tampay]

[quote name='MadGolfer76' timestamp='1324774127' post='3984617']
Interesting how black and white the discussion is. Some say "yes," go stiffer, others say no. It is interesting that what is being debated is [i]which[/i] it supposedly should be, rather than observing that one fitting philosophy for all golfers is flawed in and of itself. Maybe one philosophy holds true...for a particular golfer...but I can't imagine there is any truth to one philosophy being generalizable to all or even the majority of golfers.
[/quote]

I understand what your saying but If you look at the laws of leverage etc I think you'll come to a conclusion on what works (for everybody). We adapt to the laws, we don't control or tell them what to do - if that makes sense.

For gvogel about feel : Probably going to think I'm crazy so I should probably stop posting stuff like this on here lol.

If you want a specific answer about feel - You can't know exactly where your hands and arms are in the golf swing at any point in real time, let alone your golf shaft even if it's just an extension of your lever system. So you can't "feel" anything at the moment of impact in real time. What people feel in the golf swing is two tenths of a second (quite a long time) in the past because humans can't send information through our nerve pathways any faster than that. Unless it's though our pain nerve pathways (which have priority) that have very little to do with the golf swing. By the time we feel what happened just before impact, we have already hit the ball. So what's the point of feel in the golf swing ? We can't go back in the past and change anything. If you do claim you're a superhuman and bypass all the facts about your sensory and motor nerves and can indeed "feel" your hands / shaft just before Impact in real time. You would still have to tell your motor nervous system to correct / make compensations for your R flex droopy, flexy, forward bending shaft at Impact which also takes time. It's just not possible. - With a shaft as stiff as you can make it none of those compensations would be necessary. Just swing the mass like a baseball bat with CONSISTENT results. Any real amount of flex in a shaft is just losing energy and it would be hard to be consistent playing a noodle shaft. To put it simply, our subconscious mind is really amazing and we can compensate for oddities (flexy shaft) very well with motor patterns that will work specifically for the unique object given to us but not consistently. If we gave Tiger a R flex shaft - after hitting balls to build up a motor pattern, I'm sure he could play with it but he would never be consistent because of the amount of flexing, twisting, forward bending, droop ect going on, the head just isn't stable. Wouldn't it be easier to swing a mass without timing anything ? Just a still object in space.

Through my own testing I've found a lot of the accepted standards on how to teach golf and pass out golf equipment is incorrect. But it's normal so we just gotta go with the flow right ? Nope. Have the guts to fly in the face on convention and conduct your own testings, have a blast while doing it. It's actually pretty fun to know your off the chain of normal and playing great golf. (senior person playing X stiff tipped back shafts for example). I'll probably stick to talking equipment on this forum from now on as people don't seem to agree with me that much (on here) when I speak my mind on real issues like this in golf. At the end of the day I'm just trying to help somebody. Not stir up an argument about how the stuff I've posted is the total opposite what you heard on tv or what your favorite teacher said. I'll just continue down the road I'm on to find the real answers I guess.

[Conrad1953]

I think there's merit in the go stiffer argument. I did it with
my driver, am doing it with my woods now, and may even
do it with my next set of irons. I'm soon to be 59 years old.

Granted stiff shafts may cause some people to try to
swing too hard to load the shaft. On the other hand a
soft high torque shaft can lead to trying to steer the ball
around the course, which is equally as bad.

For us older guys there are better options now for
light weight stiff shafts rather than trying to cope with
DGS 300s or something similar. I like the light weight
Ping AWT R shafts I have in my S58s now. I hit my
nephews x100s a few months ago. I expected them to
feel harsh to me but they weren't. I think I could handle
a little stiffer shaft in my irons, especially if my accuracy
improves!

[gvogel]

[quote name='tampay' timestamp='1324776374' post='3984661']



If you want a specific answer about feel - You can't know exactly where your hands and arms are in the golf swing at any point in real time, let alone your golf shaft even if it's just an extension of your lever system. So you can't "feel" anything at the moment of impact in real time. What people feel in the golf swing is two tenths of a second (quite a long time) in the past because humans can't send information through our nerve pathways any faster than that. Unless it's though our pain nerve pathways (which have priority) that have very little to do with the golf swing. By the time we feel what happened just before impact, we have already hit the ball. So what's the point of feel in the golf swing ? We can't go back in the past and change anything.
[/quote]


There is a part of the brain that works so much faster than the part that recognizes conscious thought.



If I throw my fast at your face, you will flinch. You don't think about flinching until way after the second that you actually flinch. Your consciousness can not even compare to keep up with the flinch mechanism.


That same part of the brain brushes your teeth, without you giving a second thought to it. It also drives you to work every day while you daydream about something else, or contemplate the meeting with your boss later in the morning.


THAT part of the brain swings the golf club, and it actually does a better job of swinging the golf club when your conscious mind gets out of the way. Over time, or over many swings, it learns to adjust to different shafts, with different amounts of flex, and also different amounts of torque.


Over time, it allows, maybe not you, but me anyway, to swing most efficiently. But, if a player fights a shaft that is too stiff, that part of the brain cannot perform to optimum efficiency. The feel of which I talk, can not be measured by conscious thought, and cannot be controlled by conscious thought. It is a feel that is developed over many repetitions swinging a golf club. It is a feel that can be trusted, but can not be controlled by the conscious mind.


That feel works best in a player when the shaft in the hand is appropriate for the swing speed and loading that the individual player exerts on the shaft.


If it were not so, a tremendously accomplished player like Luke Donald would be playing X100 shafts; but Luke plays S300, a shaft that he can play shots with.


Sorry to end a sentence with a preposition.

[Cwebb]

[quote name='gvogel' timestamp='1324788741' post='3985191']


If it were not so, a tremendously accomplished player like Luke Donald would be playing X100 shafts; but Luke plays S300, a shaft that he can play shots with.


[/quote]

On the other hand, there's actually many more players on the regular and senior tour with clubhead speeds at or less than Donald's, who choose Extra Stiff shafts. Why? For no other reason than tighter dispersion and cosistency. Any "help" from the shaft in helping the ball up and/or 'squaring' the face, is not a priority.

[Rohlio]

How about this; ignore the Letter on the side of the shaft and find what actually works for you the individual. You have access to your own eyes and senses as well as trackman outdoor fitting if you really want to know.

[tampay]

[quote name='Cwebb' timestamp='1324791648' post='3985285']
[quote name='gvogel' timestamp='1324788741' post='3985191']
If it were not so, a tremendously accomplished player like Luke Donald would be playing X100 shafts; but Luke plays S300, a shaft that he can play shots with.


[/quote]

On the other hand, there's actually many more players on the regular and senior tour with clubhead speeds at or less than Donald's, who choose Extra Stiff shafts. Why? For no other reason than tighter dispersion and cosistency. Any "help" from the shaft in helping the ball up and/or 'squaring' the face, is not a priority.
[/quote]

+1 for a good point.

He plays those shafts because thats what his subconscious "compensations" are accustomed to from playing golf all his life with weak shafts. His "sequence" (Important word if you think about it). A repeatable action 90% of the time because of exhausting practice. But with all the hinges in the human body being controlled and stable. The leverage laws would require the shaft to be stable as well, as it's just an extension of the multiple lever system that is the human golfer. But It isn't, it's a weak noodle.

I'd almost guarantee that if you had somebody who hadn't played golf before, but had any knowledge of how the body works at all. They would take the telephone pole over the noodle for performance reasons only. They wouldn't have been swinging a noodle all their life like Luke has so It would be a unbiased opinion.

I (as a fast swinger) have never had a golf shaft that could keep up with me. Neither does Tiger / Phil or many golfers. If we had the tools to handle the force of the human body we would be better off because of it. Tiger might actually hit fairways with his driver. Instead you are forced to tip back extra stiff shafts that are usually .355 tip and have to ream out the hosel for it to fit. Most people won't go to that extreme anyway because the "industry standard" X Stiff shafts are perfect right ?

Maybe one day people will learn from our elders such as Ben Hogan who had almost all of it right IMO. One of those things being the stiffest shaft he could possibly find. In his case - hickory over 205 grams. People thought he was crazy at the time.

@gvogel - Like I said I'm not going to bother responding to stuff like that anymore as it always ends in an useless argument. Gonna try and keep it equipment specific. I'll leave those posts to private conversations. But the fact you bring up Luke Donald, like he knows everything because he plays good golf. Would give me a page to right about in argument. Again I choose not to go there. I'm just trying to help somebody and I wish you luck in your search for the real answers.  

[HeadonaStick]

[quote name='gvogel' timestamp='1324788741' post='3985191']
[quote name='tampay' timestamp='1324776374' post='3984661']



If you want a specific answer about feel - You can't know exactly where your hands and arms are in the golf swing at any point in real time, let alone your golf shaft even if it's just an extension of your lever system. So you can't "feel" anything at the moment of impact in real time. What people feel in the golf swing is two tenths of a second (quite a long time) in the past because humans can't send information through our nerve pathways any faster than that. Unless it's though our pain nerve pathways (which have priority) that have very little to do with the golf swing. By the time we feel what happened just before impact, we have already hit the ball. So what's the point of feel in the golf swing ? We can't go back in the past and change anything.
[/quote]


There is a part of the brain that works so much faster than the part that recognizes conscious thought.



If I throw my fast at your face, you will flinch. You don't think about flinching until way after the second that you actually flinch. Your consciousness can not even compare to keep up with the flinch mechanism.[/quote]

I don't know much about shafts etc. but what you are referring to is called the reflex arc, and it is not instantaneous and you are not conscious of the action, therefor feel would have no bearing on it nor would you be able to tell where your hands are if the reflex arc were involved in your swing (which it isn't).


[quote]That same part of the brain brushes your teeth, without you giving a second thought to it. It also drives you to work every day while you daydream about something else, or contemplate the meeting with your boss later in the morning.
[/quote]

You do not brush your teeth unconsciously, it is simply such a practiced act that you do not need to devote your attention to it. It is also not related to feel nor is it instantaneous.

[quote]THAT part of the brain swings the golf club, and it actually does a better job of swinging the golf club when your conscious mind gets out of the way. Over time, or over many swings, it learns to adjust to different shafts, with different amounts of flex, and also different amounts of torque. [/quote]

Yes, if you practice an act over and over again it requires much less conscious effort to complete the act, but you cannot adjust to changes in shafts and flexes without additional practice - which is why small changes to equipment can create big problems for one's game.


[quote]Over time, it allows, maybe not you, but me anyway, to swing most efficiently. But, if a player fights a shaft that is too stiff, that part of the brain cannot perform to optimum efficiency. The feel of which I talk, can not be measured by conscious thought, and cannot be controlled by conscious thought. It is a feel that is developed over many repetitions swinging a golf club. It is a feel that can be trusted, but can not be controlled by the conscious mind.


That feel works best in a player when the shaft in the hand is appropriate for the swing speed and loading that the individual player exerts on the shaft.


If it were not so, a tremendously accomplished player like Luke Donald would be playing X100 shafts; but Luke plays S300, a shaft that he can play shots with.


Sorry to end a sentence with a preposition.
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You are confusing many different ideas in brain function in this post, but at the end of the day, you cannot feel your swing as quickly as it happens, period. Feel does not play a part in any single swing although you may get used to a certain feel at a certain time in the swing (although you are used to feeling it after it has already happened in the swing) over repeated swings - assuming you complete each practice swing identically.