The ballad of Jimmy Ballard...

[pinhigh27]

I mean it's pretty easy to see with a putter.... Go putt a ball. Make a line on the floor that is between putterhead and the target. Now swing out 45 degrees while keeping the face completely square. Tell me how the ball starts? Just a little right of the line, right? Way closer to the clubface line, than the path line, huh?

I don't even understand how people ever thought that path controlled starting direction. It doesn't even make sense in layman's terms thinking about it.

Do the putter experiment and let me know what you find. Thanks

[PreppySlapCut]

[quote name='Forged_Irons' timestamp='1390677161' post='8530547']
Because it's the opposite. That's why.
[/quote]
I'm not saying this to attack you, so please don't take it the wrong way. YOU ARE WRONG. IT HAS BEEN PROVEN SCIENTIFICALLY. There is no "debate."

[Forged_Irons]

[quote name='JPGolf FL' timestamp='1390677287' post='8530567']
[quote name='Forged_Irons' timestamp='1390675567' post='8530375']
[quote name='JPGolf FL' timestamp='1390674654' post='8530297']
@forged..... Could you explain how the ball fades or draws?
[/quote]
Related to fades and draws:
There are many ways to draw and fade it with independent motions of the hands, wrists, and arms. A la the foley bs that's going around. But for those of us who don't want to hit inconsistent glancing blows all the time to work the ball we have to use the big muscles to swing the club and RELEASE it. Not hold it off or roll it over. (The phrase wrapping around the ball simply refers to a proper release of the club. It's the door swinging on a hinge analogy and happens naturally without manipulation in a proper athletic swing.)
The only way to do it properly is as follows. Set up right or left to determine path and initial direction of the ball, this is your actual target line. Set club face square to location were you wish the ball to finish, this is your actual target. Swing naturally on the lime you have chosen (to the right or left of the target, as you please, release the club fully (assuming you know how to do this) and the ball will curve toward your target due to squaring it to your target in the set up.
Any method other than this involves various independent hand and arm motions which aren't repeatable. This is how Hogan and Nicholas hit standard draws and fades. Trouble and specialty shots ate different and should only be used after becoming proficient the conventional way.
[/quote]
So to fade a ball to a flag you want your path left of the flag and the face pointing directly at the flag at impact......right?
[/quote]
Face pointing at flag at SETUP. The club is moving 100+ mph through the ball. The only real way to move it though the ball is with a proper release. Manually trying to put the club square to anything at impact is crazy. Again that's a hands and arms move and will never be consistent.

[thekru]

[quote name='JPGolf FL' timestamp='1390677287' post='8530567']
[quote name='Forged_Irons' timestamp='1390675567' post='8530375']
[quote name='JPGolf FL' timestamp='1390674654' post='8530297']
@forged..... Could you explain how the ball fades or draws?
[/quote]
Related to fades and draws:
There are many ways to draw and fade it with independent motions of the hands, wrists, and arms. A la the foley bs that's going around. But for those of us who don't want to hit inconsistent glancing blows all the time to work the ball we have to use the big muscles to swing the club and RELEASE it. Not hold it off or roll it over. (The phrase wrapping around the ball simply refers to a proper release of the club. It's the door swinging on a hinge analogy and happens naturally without manipulation in a proper athletic swing.)
The only way to do it properly is as follows. Set up right or left to determine path and initial direction of the ball, this is your actual target line. Set club face square to location were you wish the ball to finish, this is your actual target. Swing naturally on the lime you have chosen (to the right or left of the target, as you please, release the club fully (assuming you know how to do this) and the ball will curve toward your target due to squaring it to your target in the set up.
Any method other than this involves various independent hand and arm motions which aren't repeatable. This is how Hogan and Nicholas hit standard draws and fades. Trouble and specialty shots ate different and should only be used after becoming proficient the conventional way.
[/quote]
So to fade a ball to a flag you want your path left of the flag and the face pointing directly at the flag at impact......right?
[/quote]

If it works for forged, it works. Does it really matter......The ball flight law fanatics seem to think if you are wrong about the facts of ball flight you cannot achieve what really matters. Results!!.....If Hogan, Snead and Nelson had it wrong, who cares, they were great players. Tiger knows the 'new ball flight laws' and can still hit it off the planet. Faldo went off the 'old ball flight laws' and did quite well for himself.

These discussions about ball flight laws are getting old, stupid, annoying and boring.

[Forged_Irons]

[quote name='pinhigh27' timestamp='1390679416' post='8530795']
I mean it's pretty easy to see with a putter.... Go putt a ball. Make a line on the floor that is between putterhead and the target. Now swing out 45 degrees while keeping the face completely square. Tell me how the ball starts? Just a little right of the line, right? Way closer to the clubface line, than the path line, huh?

I don't even understand how people ever thought that path controlled starting direction. It doesn't even make sense in layman's terms thinking about it.

Do the putter experiment and let me know what you find. Thanks
[/quote]
You're probably not releasing the putter properly either. You're probably using the square to square rock your shoulder method which is not how the club was designed but everyone does it. It's a block stroke and not a release. No wonder the face angle dictates way more than it should.

[Forged_Irons]

[quote name='Forged_Irons' timestamp='1390680822' post='8530923']
[quote name='pinhigh27' timestamp='1390679416' post='8530795']
I mean it's pretty easy to see with a putter.... Go putt a ball. Make a line on the floor that is between putterhead and the target. Now swing out 45 degrees while keeping the face completely square. Tell me how the ball starts? Just a little right of the line, right? Way closer to the clubface line, than the path line, huh?

I don't even understand how people ever thought that path controlled starting direction. It doesn't even make sense in layman's terms thinking about it.

Do the putter experiment and let me know what you find. Thanks
[/quote]
You're probably not releasing the putter properly either. You're probably using the square to square rock your shoulder method which is not how the club was designed but everyone does it. It's a block stroke and not a release. No wonder the face angle dictates way more than it should.
[/quote]
So now, with the Kenny Perry example you believe that the 3 degree open face is dictating more of the balls initial path than the 6 degree path to the right the club is traveling on. Insanity.

[Forged_Irons]

You guys are all speaking in terms of swings where the face angle is controlled by the rolling of the hands and/or arms. None of that should take place in a proper swing. In a proper swing the face if the club is square to the path entirely through the ball. No rolling or twisting. I'm certain that for a manipulated move the face angle dictates nearly everything since the club face is nearly never square to the path.

[JPGolf FL]

[quote name='thekru' timestamp='1390680770' post='8530919']
[quote name='JPGolf FL' timestamp='1390677287' post='8530567']
[quote name='Forged_Irons' timestamp='1390675567' post='8530375']
[quote name='JPGolf FL' timestamp='1390674654' post='8530297']
@forged..... Could you explain how the ball fades or draws?
[/quote]
Related to fades and draws:
There are many ways to draw and fade it with independent motions of the hands, wrists, and arms. A la the foley bs that's going around. But for those of us who don't want to hit inconsistent glancing blows all the time to work the ball we have to use the big muscles to swing the club and RELEASE it. Not hold it off or roll it over. (The phrase wrapping around the ball simply refers to a proper release of the club. It's the door swinging on a hinge analogy and happens naturally without manipulation in a proper athletic swing.)
The only way to do it properly is as follows. Set up right or left to determine path and initial direction of the ball, this is your actual target line. Set club face square to location were you wish the ball to finish, this is your actual target. Swing naturally on the lime you have chosen (to the right or left of the target, as you please, release the club fully (assuming you know how to do this) and the ball will curve toward your target due to squaring it to your target in the set up.
Any method other than this involves various independent hand and arm motions which aren't repeatable. This is how Hogan and Nicholas hit standard draws and fades. Trouble and specialty shots ate different and should only be used after becoming proficient the conventional way.
[/quote]
So to fade a ball to a flag you want your path left of the flag and the face pointing directly at the flag at impact......right?
[/quote]


These discussions about ball flight laws are getting old, stupid, annoying and boring.
[/quote]
So old stupid and annoying that you decided to join in...... It's not about discussion. It's about knowing why the ball does what it does. If someone went off the idea that the ball starts on the path they would never ever be able to self diagnose ball flight problems. This could be the reason forged_irons is still a self proclaimed "mid-high" handicap. If someone hits a straight hook every time and tries to get the ball to start more right by pushing the path more to right field, they are going to miss even more left. So it's not about pointless discussion. It's about snuffing out wrong information before it messes other people up.

[Forged_Irons]

[quote name='thekru' timestamp='1390680770' post='8530919']
[quote name='JPGolf FL' timestamp='1390677287' post='8530567']
[quote name='Forged_Irons' timestamp='1390675567' post='8530375']
[quote name='JPGolf FL' timestamp='1390674654' post='8530297']
@forged..... Could you explain how the ball fades or draws?
[/quote]
Related to fades and draws:
There are many ways to draw and fade it with independent motions of the hands, wrists, and arms. A la the foley bs that's going around. But for those of us who don't want to hit inconsistent glancing blows all the time to work the ball we have to use the big muscles to swing the club and RELEASE it. Not hold it off or roll it over. (The phrase wrapping around the ball simply refers to a proper release of the club. It's the door swinging on a hinge analogy and happens naturally without manipulation in a proper athletic swing.)
The only way to do it properly is as follows. Set up right or left to determine path and initial direction of the ball, this is your actual target line. Set club face square to location were you wish the ball to finish, this is your actual target. Swing naturally on the lime you have chosen (to the right or left of the target, as you please, release the club fully (assuming you know how to do this) and the ball will curve toward your target due to squaring it to your target in the set up.
Any method other than this involves various independent hand and arm motions which aren't repeatable. This is how Hogan and Nicholas hit standard draws and fades. Trouble and specialty shots ate different and should only be used after becoming proficient the conventional way.
[/quote]
So to fade a ball to a flag you want your path left of the flag and the face pointing directly at the flag at impact......right?
[/quote]

If it works for forged, it works. Does it really matter......The ball flight law fanatics seem to think if you are wrong about the facts of ball flight you cannot achieve what really matters. Results!!.....If Hogan, Snead and Nelson had it wrong, who cares, they were great players. Tiger knows the 'new ball flight laws' and can still hit it off the planet. Faldo went off the 'old ball flight laws' and did quite well for himself.

These discussions about ball flight laws are getting old, stupid, annoying and boring.
[/quote]
I agree. I like the old laws but I'm bored of this too. Thanks for being the voice of reason.

[KevCarter]

With the information that's been readily available the past several years, I'm very surprised to see this argument taking place...

[Mitchell]

So getting back on topic, does Ballard prefer a particular ballflight and if so, what is it?

[rok78]

[quote name='Forged_Irons' timestamp='1390681149' post='8530955']
You guys are all speaking in terms of swings where the face angle is controlled by the rolling of the hands and/or arms. None of that should take place in a proper swing. In a proper swing the face if the club is square to the path entirely through the ball. No rolling or twisting. I'm certain that for a manipulated move the face angle dictates nearly everything since the club face is nearly never square to the path.
[/quote]

For someone who says they don't know everything, why are you so sensitive/defensive when all scientific facts are saying you are wrong regarding this particular issue? Why not go do some independent research on what dictates the start line?

Ballard's methods can work, but the ball flight explanations are very wrong.

[dlygrisse]

Well this has been a fun thread.

Forged I love your passion, I love your commitment, I love your tenacity, but I am sorry to tell you, your are arguing scientific facts by trying to describe feels. "Feel and Real" are not always the same...if you know what I mean.

Fact is all the "Foley BS" can be accomplished in many different ways, including trying to manipulate as you say, and by releasing in a "proper" way. I will grant you, you are correct that releasing the club is usually a really good way to think about it, but what happens at impact is science, physics, laws of the universe, how a human being gets there is more of an art than science.

I understand why someone would teach a student what you are saying, in fact it is probably more effective than explaining science to most....it seems whomever you learned your info from was more of an artist than a scientist,....which is fine, but you need to realize you cannot win this argument on a scientific level.

That being said I was enjoying your comments on Ballard, he teaches many good feels and visualizations. It is a method that should not be discredited.

(FWIW I think Foley is full of himself and full of a lot of BS, but not about the ball flight laws...but MAYBE full of BS in regard to his method of teaching them)

Make sense?

[zukszoo]

I have personally found Ballard's teachings to produce some of my most consistent scoring in golf. My only under par rounds have been in the last three years that I have been working on these fundamentals.

For me, the ball flight is high but penetrating. I know many have said that it would tend to be lower. Most people I see using his methods now seem to also hit it what I would consider to be on the high side. Makes me wonder how much of that is related to the modern ball.

I started playing 22 years ago with balata balls and they would take off low and then just spin their way up. New balls take off on a beautiful angle, flatten, and then drop. Very much prefer todays ball.

[pinhigh27]

[quote name='Forged_Irons' timestamp='1390680822' post='8530923']
[quote name='pinhigh27' timestamp='1390679416' post='8530795']
I mean it's pretty easy to see with a putter.... Go putt a ball. Make a line on the floor that is between putterhead and the target. Now swing out 45 degrees while keeping the face completely square. Tell me how the ball starts? Just a little right of the line, right? Way closer to the clubface line, than the path line, huh?

I don't even understand how people ever thought that path controlled starting direction. It doesn't even make sense in layman's terms thinking about it.

Do the putter experiment and let me know what you find. Thanks
[/quote]
You're probably not releasing the putter properly either. You're probably using the square to square rock your shoulder method which is not how the club was designed but everyone does it. It's a block stroke and not a release. No wonder the face angle dictates way more than it should.
[/quote]

The results of how impact achieved do not matter at all. The only things that matters are the instantaneous values of the club at impact. Such as where the face it pointed, along with the tangent line of the swing arc at that exact point.
Seriously. Do the putter test. Video tape doing it and the results proving your point, and you will have proved us all wrong. The release, the swing, none of that matters. Its the position of the club at impact. Nothing else matters. Aim the putter at your target, swing 45 degrees to the right of that, and tell me what the ball does.
This is really easy. If you want to actually improve as a golfer(just read you are a mid-high capper) so that's probably your goal, this is the easiest way to properly understand. It is also the easiest way to prove us wrong if you are correct.
It's also funny you are a mid-high, so I'm assuming like 12+, yet I'm pretty sure people that teach with TM have weighed in opposite of you and you still claim to know whats up....
Do the putter drill. It's really easy to see, and you'll have your answer.

[Forged_Irons]

[quote name='pinhigh27' timestamp='1390679416' post='8530795']
I mean it's pretty easy to see with a putter.... Go putt a ball. Make a line on the floor that is between putterhead and the target. Now swing out 45 degrees while keeping the face completely square. Tell me how the ball starts? Just a little right of the line, right? Way closer to the clubface line, than the path line, huh?

I don't even understand how people ever thought that path controlled starting direction. It doesn't even make sense in layman's terms thinking about it.

Do the putter experiment and let me know what you find. Thanks
[/quote]
I find that if I set my body up left of target and set my face to the target, (with the putter) and swing along my body lines with the proper release, the ball starts out left of my target. Pretty much right on my body line. Forgive me but isn't this the same thing Jack Nicklaus did with most of his shots (fades)? I'm 99.99% sure that he won 18 majors this way. He aimed his body lines slightly left, squared his club face to the target (not his body line), swung the club along his body lines (to the left) and fired (released) as hard as he wanted. Ball started out on the path of the swing (to the left) and faded to the target as hoe club face at address promoted. What does this have to do with old or new rules? If the new rules are based on turning around yourself and not swinging with an athletic release then I suppose anything goes with that "philosophy" and I don't want any part of it.

[thekru]

[quote name='JPGolf FL' timestamp='1390681238' post='8530969']
[quote name='thekru' timestamp='1390680770' post='8530919']
[quote name='JPGolf FL' timestamp='1390677287' post='8530567']
[quote name='Forged_Irons' timestamp='1390675567' post='8530375']
[quote name='JPGolf FL' timestamp='1390674654' post='8530297']
@forged..... Could you explain how the ball fades or draws?
[/quote]
Related to fades and draws:
There are many ways to draw and fade it with independent motions of the hands, wrists, and arms. A la the foley bs that's going around. But for those of us who don't want to hit inconsistent glancing blows all the time to work the ball we have to use the big muscles to swing the club and RELEASE it. Not hold it off or roll it over. (The phrase wrapping around the ball simply refers to a proper release of the club. It's the door swinging on a hinge analogy and happens naturally without manipulation in a proper athletic swing.)
The only way to do it properly is as follows. Set up right or left to determine path and initial direction of the ball, this is your actual target line. Set club face square to location were you wish the ball to finish, this is your actual target. Swing naturally on the lime you have chosen (to the right or left of the target, as you please, release the club fully (assuming you know how to do this) and the ball will curve toward your target due to squaring it to your target in the set up.
Any method other than this involves various independent hand and arm motions which aren't repeatable. This is how Hogan and Nicholas hit standard draws and fades. Trouble and specialty shots ate different and should only be used after becoming proficient the conventional way.
[/quote]
So to fade a ball to a flag you want your path left of the flag and the face pointing directly at the flag at impact......right?
[/quote]


These discussions about ball flight laws are getting old, stupid, annoying and boring.
[/quote]
So old stupid and annoying that you decided to join in...... It's not about discussion. It's about knowing why the ball does what it does. If someone went off the idea that the ball starts on the path they would never ever be able to self diagnose ball flight problems. This could be the reason forged_irons is still a self proclaimed "mid-high" handicap. If someone hits a straight hook every time and tries to get the ball to start more right by pushing the path more to right field, they are going to miss even more left. So it's not about pointless discussion. It's about snuffing out wrong information before it messes other people up.
[/quote]

Why are you assuming he is going to push his path more right? Maybe he will make the same swing and just aim more right.

[bph7]

Is this debate actually happening? Geez....

Forged, I've enjoyed your posts, but as has already been said and echoed a bunch, your description of how the ball flies based on its face angle and path at impact are just wrong. It's been proven that the face angle at impact determines about 80% of initial direction and path in relation to that determines curve. It doesn't matter what you, ballard, or even Jack FEEL or think you do. Those are feels. Please, for your own sake, if you really don't believe us, get on a trackman to convince yourself. If your feels help you, then great, but if you ever are trying to correct ball flight you are gonna mess yourself up by for example changing path to alter initial direction etc...

[pinhigh27]

[quote name='Forged_Irons' timestamp='1390686045' post='8531511']
[quote name='pinhigh27' timestamp='1390679416' post='8530795']
I mean it's pretty easy to see with a putter.... Go putt a ball. Make a line on the floor that is between putterhead and the target. Now swing out 45 degrees while keeping the face completely square. Tell me how the ball starts? Just a little right of the line, right? Way closer to the clubface line, than the path line, huh?

I don't even understand how people ever thought that path controlled starting direction. It doesn't even make sense in layman's terms thinking about it.

Do the putter experiment and let me know what you find. Thanks
[/quote]
I find that if I set my body up left of target and set my face to the target, (with the putter) and swing along my body lines with the proper release, the ball starts out left of my target. Pretty much right on my body line. Forgive me but isn't this the same thing Jack Nicklaus did with most of his shots (fades)? I'm 99.99% sure that he won 18 majors this way. He aimed his body lines slightly left, squared his club face to the target (not his body line), swung the club along his body lines (to the left) and fired (released) as hard as he wanted. Ball started out on the path of the swing (to the left) and faded to the target as hoe club face at address promoted. What does this have to do with old or new rules? [b]If the new rules are based on turning around yourself and not swinging with an athletic release then I suppose anything goes with that "philosophy" and I don't want any part of it.[/b]
[/quote]

This isn't something you can choose to partake in or not. It's collision physics. Anyone with a basic understanding of collision would see it's ludicrous to think that the primary determinant of starting direction is path.

Again. This is a set of universal truths. It doesn't matter if you like them or not. If you control your golf ball, you obey them. That doesn't mean you have to think you do, but it still happens.

P.S. Does this guy remind anyone of Chris P?

[Forged_Irons]

[quote name='pinhigh27' timestamp='1390684257' post='8531281']
[quote name='Forged_Irons' timestamp='1390680822' post='8530923']
[quote name='pinhigh27' timestamp='1390679416' post='8530795']
I mean it's pretty easy to see with a putter.... Go putt a ball. Make a line on the floor that is between putterhead and the target. Now swing out 45 degrees while keeping the face completely square. Tell me how the ball starts? Just a little right of the line, right? Way closer to the clubface line, than the path line, huh?

I don't even understand how people ever thought that path controlled starting direction. It doesn't even make sense in layman's terms thinking about it.

Do the putter experiment and let me know what you find. Thanks
[/quote]
You're probably not releasing the putter properly either. You're probably using the square to square rock your shoulder method which is not how the club was designed but everyone does it. It's a block stroke and not a release. No wonder the face angle dictates way more than it should.
[/quote]

The results of how impact achieved do not matter at all. The only things that matters are the instantaneous values of the club at impact. Such as where the face it pointed, along with the tangent line of the swing arc at that exact point.
Seriously. Do the putter test. Video tape doing it and the results proving your point, and you will have proved us all wrong. The release, the swing, none of that matters. Its the position of the club at impact. Nothing else matters. Aim the putter at your target, swing 45 degrees to the right of that, and tell me what the ball does.
This is really easy. If you want to actually improve as a golfer(just read you are a mid-high capper) so that's probably your goal, this is the easiest way to properly understand. It is also the easiest way to prove us wrong if you are correct.
It's also funny you are a mid-high, so I'm assuming like 12+, yet I'm pretty sure people that teach with TM have weighed in opposite of you and you still claim to know whats up....
Do the putter drill. It's really easy to see, and you'll have your answer.
[/quote]
I think it's funny that so many make so many snap assumptions here. I am listing myself as a mid-high capper which means I'm in the mid to high single digits, as if that speaks to credibility. You seem to view handicap as some sort of standardized test and that my ~ -8 handicap tells you everything you need to know and to dismiss what I'm saying. Based on this view, Tiger woods shouldn't ever have listened to anyone as nobody's handicap was better. Foolishness. I haven't asked you what your handicap is btw, because I judge your points on their own merit, and not by your scorecards. Overestimate the value of TM for improving your golf game at your own peril . If you don't already know through practice, TM can only give quantitative info and not qualitative info. Additionally, TM can't tell you if your swing sucks and you just happen to have a square face and path (maybe just that day). Moreover, TM can't tell if you are swinging mostly with your hands and arms or whether you have a coordinated athletic action that promotes consistency without having to bang balls for hours to maintain your hand eye coordination.

Just to recap what I've stated prior about myself: I played for many years trying nearly every method under the sun to improve, nearly every technique I worked on involved some type of attempt to learn the golf swing through positions, and drills to try to "connect the dots" between those positions. Most of these methods also involved the very things Jimmy Ballard advises against, straight left arm, still head, turning, etc. Bottom line was that all this that effort got me an awful swing that miraculously produced a 4.3 handicap (does that give me 50% more credibility now?! Lol) but I couldn't get better no matter what. Also this swing would often abandon me under pressure. Therefore I had to learn a better way, the right way (IMO). Consequently, in the re-learning process my handicap initially went up to about an 11 (zero credibility here I assume) and it's heading back down now but with tangible ball striking improvements. (Maybe if I spend a week on TM working on my numbers I can become a scratch! Haha)

[Forged_Irons]

[quote name='bph7' timestamp='1390688299' post='8531747']
Is this debate actually happening? Geez....

Forged, I've enjoyed your posts, but as has already been said and echoed a bunch, your description of how the ball flies based on its face angle and path at impact are just wrong. It's been proven that the face angle at impact determines about 80% of initial direction and path in relation to that determines curve. It doesn't matter what you, ballard, or even Jack FEEL or think you do. Those are feels. Please, for your own sake, if you really don't believe us, get on a trackman to convince yourself. If your feels help you, then great, but if you ever are trying to correct ball flight you are gonna mess yourself up by for example changing path to alter initial direction etc...
[/quote]
I would suggest ignoring me if you think track man is the answer. Thank you for the diplomatic approach nonetheless.

[Hstead]

Forged, you have only been a member her it looks like for a month, so I do not expect you to know who some of these posters are that are disagreeing with you. There have been several golf teachers chime in to help you. If you think you know everything and all of us are just wrong and you seem to be the only guy is right, then ok. But, if you want to improve past you best 4.3 handicap, you might want to listen to the numerous members here that have been there and done that and are now way better than 4.3 because of it.

At one point, I was in your boat, thinking the path was responsible for direction and face was controlling the curve. I never was able to better 3 as a handicap. Not only that, the frustration of thinking that the hook I just hit that started where I aimed my face, at the target, but my body aiming right with my path was because I didn't swing the path more right where I wanted it to start nearly drove me nuts. Now I understand the ball flight laws and can correct any miss I create because I know what created it.

This forum can be extremely helpful for guys that want to improve, but you have to be willing to learn. There are guys on here that make their living by teaching this game and they share their knowledge on a regular basis for free to use hacks because they want to help golfers in general. Go ask Monte what is responsible for the balls flight, or Brian Manzella, or Brad Hughes, or Jim Waldren, or Martin Chcuk, just to name a few that post here regularly. None of those guys are going agree with you. You will have a hard time finding anyone on this site that is going to agree with. So maybe you might want to reconsider that you do not know everything about the golf swing. Trust me, the more I learn about the swing from guys that know what they are talking about the more I realize how much I do not know. You will become a much better player if you lose the attitude that you are the only guy right and everyone else on this site is wrong. Or, you can keep thinking you know everything and never become better than a 4.3.

[PutterKilledTheDream]

Trackman isn't the answer its a diagnostic snapshot of what th clubs doing right before and at impact. You have to figure out how to swing the club in a way to get to impact correctly. Describing correctly is where the disconnect happens.Its being described incorrectly. I was taught to aim right hood my face to hit draws... it actually did appear that the toe was wrapping the ball from that hooded position. It worked too, problem was I hooked the s*** out of the ball more than not. Also hit alot of wide right over cuts. I've spent 1 1/2 years now practicing on Trackman I haven't changed my swing. What I have learned how to do is get the clubface in a better impact position and shape the ball with bigger muscles and less hand action. I don't care who says it... the old way of shaping shots required more hand manipulation than less.

[pinhigh27]

[quote name='Forged_Irons' timestamp='1390688842' post='8531805']
[quote name='pinhigh27' timestamp='1390684257' post='8531281']
[quote name='Forged_Irons' timestamp='1390680822' post='8530923']
[quote name='pinhigh27' timestamp='1390679416' post='8530795']
I mean it's pretty easy to see with a putter.... Go putt a ball. Make a line on the floor that is between putterhead and the target. Now swing out 45 degrees while keeping the face completely square. Tell me how the ball starts? Just a little right of the line, right? Way closer to the clubface line, than the path line, huh?

I don't even understand how people ever thought that path controlled starting direction. It doesn't even make sense in layman's terms thinking about it.

Do the putter experiment and let me know what you find. Thanks
[/quote]
You're probably not releasing the putter properly either. You're probably using the square to square rock your shoulder method which is not how the club was designed but everyone does it. It's a block stroke and not a release. No wonder the face angle dictates way more than it should.
[/quote]

The results of how impact achieved do not matter at all. The only things that matters are the instantaneous values of the club at impact. Such as where the face it pointed, along with the tangent line of the swing arc at that exact point.
Seriously. Do the putter test. Video tape doing it and the results proving your point, and you will have proved us all wrong. The release, the swing, none of that matters. Its the position of the club at impact. Nothing else matters. Aim the putter at your target, swing 45 degrees to the right of that, and tell me what the ball does.
This is really easy. If you want to actually improve as a golfer(just read you are a mid-high capper) so that's probably your goal, this is the easiest way to properly understand. It is also the easiest way to prove us wrong if you are correct.
It's also funny you are a mid-high, so I'm assuming like 12+, yet I'm pretty sure people that teach with TM have weighed in opposite of you and you still claim to know whats up....
Do the putter drill. It's really easy to see, and you'll have your answer.
[/quote]
I think it's funny that so many make so many snap assumptions here. I am listing myself as a mid-high capper which means I'm in the mid to high single digits, as if that speaks to credibility. You seem to view handicap as some sort of standardized test and that my ~ -8 handicap tells you everything you need to know and to dismiss what I'm saying. Based on this view, Tiger woods shouldn't ever have listened to anyone as nobody's handicap was better. Foolishness. I haven't asked you what your handicap is btw, because I judge your points on their own merit, and not by your scorecards. Overestimate the value of TM for improving your golf game at your own peril . If you don't already know through practice, TM can only give quantitative info and not qualitative info. Additionally, TM can't tell you if your swing sucks and you just happen to have a square face and path (maybe just that day). Moreover, TM can't tell if you are swinging mostly with your hands and arms or whether you have a coordinated athletic action that promotes consistency without having to bang balls for hours to maintain your hand eye coordination.

Just to recap what I've stated prior about myself: I played for many years trying nearly every method under the sun to improve, nearly every technique I worked on involved some type of attempt to learn the golf swing through positions, and drills to try to "connect the dots" between those positions. Most of these methods also involved the very things Jimmy Ballard advises against, straight left arm, still head, turning, etc. Bottom line was that all this that effort got me an awful swing that miraculously produced a 4.3 handicap (does that give me 50% more credibility now?! Lol) but I couldn't get better no matter what. Also this swing would often abandon me under pressure. Therefore I had to learn a better way, the right way (IMO). Consequently, in the re-learning process my handicap initially went up to about an 11 (zero credibility here I assume) and it's heading back down now but with tangible ball striking improvements. (Maybe if I spend a week on TM working on my numbers I can become a scratch! Haha)
[/quote]

No it doesn't dismiss your credibility, but when you have people that teach on TM and understand it's results and how the ball curves, then those are probably the people you want to listen to. My handicap is irrelevant, however yours reflect on your ignorance and the relatively high potential you have to improve with good information. Therefore if I was in your position, I would seek correct information that is backed by science, rather than what someone "feels."

No one is telling you that getting on TM is magically going to fix your problems. What it will do, is give you a proper understanding on the flight of your ball. From there, you can tailor your swing towards your desired flight. That's awfully hard to do without understanding the concepts that produce those desired results. As in pretty much guessing. Therefore, TM would save you time and effort and allow you to understand the concepts behind reaching your goals.

[Hstead]

I started a new thread to discuss the ball flight laws. I feel badly that folks wanting to learn what Ballard teaches will have to wade through a few pages of nothing related to his method but instead to why the ball flies as it does.

I agreed with Puppett a while back to not make this all about ball flight as he understands exactly why the ball flies the way it does too, so here is the new thread link so we can let this thread get back to Ballard stuff.

I made a poll out of curiosity to see how many more people think the "new" laws are wrong.

http://www.golfwrx.com/forums/topic/959899-ball-flight-laws-poll-who-disagrees/

[psufish]

[quote name='Hstead' timestamp='1390691893' post='8532129']
I started a new thread to discuss the ball flight laws. I feel badly that folks wanting to learn what Ballard teaches will have to wade through a few pages of nothing related to his method but instead to why the ball flies as it does.

I agreed with Puppett a while back to not make this all about ball flight as he understands exactly why the ball flies the way it does too, so here is the new thread link so we can let this thread get back to Ballard stuff.

I made a poll out of curiosity to see how many more people think the "new" laws are wrong.

[url="http://www.golfwrx.com/forums/topic/959899-ball-flight-laws-poll-who-disagrees/"]http://www.golfwrx.c...-who-disagrees/[/url]
[/quote]

Seriously, it'd be nice to get back to what Ballard teaches...thanks HStead for moving the ball discussion out of the way. There are just some people who will believe whatever they were taught, and they don't have the flexibility to change. That's life, and f_irons, by all means man, you do whatever you think is best. Just please, don't "teach" anyone this.

[Forged_Irons]

[quote name='bph7' timestamp='1390688299' post='8531747']
Is this debate actually happening? Geez....

Forged, I've enjoyed your posts, but as has already been said and echoed a bunch, your description of how the ball flies based on its face angle and path at impact are just wrong. It's been proven that the face angle at impact determines about 80% of initial direction and path in relation to that determines curve. It doesn't matter what you, ballard, or even Jack FEEL or think you do. Those are feels. Please, for your own sake, if you really don't believe us, get on a trackman to convince yourself. If your feels help you, then great, but if you ever are trying to correct ball flight you are gonna mess yourself up by for example changing path to alter initial direction etc...
[/quote]
So Jack Nicholas is wrong in his explanation when he says that he sets up left of target (path) and aligns his club face at the target (face angle) and his ball fades from left to right?

[Hstead]

[quote name='Forged_Irons' timestamp='1390707151' post='8533805']
[quote name='bph7' timestamp='1390688299' post='8531747']
Is this debate actually happening? Geez....

Forged, I've enjoyed your posts, but as has already been said and echoed a bunch, your description of how the ball flies based on its face angle and path at impact are just wrong. It's been proven that the face angle at impact determines about 80% of initial direction and path in relation to that determines curve. It doesn't matter what you, ballard, or even Jack FEEL or think you do. Those are feels. Please, for your own sake, if you really don't believe us, get on a trackman to convince yourself. If your feels help you, then great, but if you ever are trying to correct ball flight you are gonna mess yourself up by for example changing path to alter initial direction etc...
[/quote]
So Jack Nicholas is wrong in his explanation when he says that he sets up left of target (path) and aligns his club face at the target (face angle) and his ball fades from left to right?
[/quote]

I have no clue what Jack Nicholas does, but what Jack Nicklaus says he does and what actually happens at impact are two different things, called "feel vs real".

Have you not looked at the other thread? Do you not want to take this conversation over there for the sake of Ballard folks? It is overwhelming over on the other thread I understand, about 91% of folks agree with us and 9% believe as you do that the path is responsible for the start, but I digress.

[Forged_Irons]

So this info from waldo1 must be dead wrong according to the "new rules"?
Quote: "The terms "old school" and "we now know" are confusing to me.
In the Nicklaus Golf My way book Jack seems to understand quite well what influences ball flight. He states a push fade is caused by the club head traveling from in to out with the club face looking right of the swing path. That's from 1974. How is that not understanding ball flight. In the book Jack explains that his power fade was from an in to out swing with the face looking at the target and therefore he aimed left. That seems to be accurate and again its from 1974. I understand his video, Golf My Way, was ultra simplistic and not presented with great depth of detail, but his book, IMHO, seems to show he does understand how and why his ball curves. Tommy Armor made similar statements in the 1920's. He gave lessons based solely on swing correction made based on ball flight. So, exactly what is "old school" and what do "we now know" that is different from what Nicklaus or Armor wrote? I ask because I am confused and could use guidance."
Sounds right on to me and I'll leave it at that.

[Forged_Irons]

Oh, one last thing. With a sound swing the path always travels from in to square which is the in to out Nicholas is describing. More descriptively: It goes from in to out till it reaches the ball squares up and returns inside again past the ball. That is for a draw or a fade. IMHO (and apparently Nicklaus' also). Although I'm sure he has no need to add the disclaimer "IMHO". Ha