The ballad of Jimmy Ballard...

[Forged_Irons]

I'm done as well. Good thing for Jack he didn't follow the 91%.

[Hstead]

Ok, it is apparent now that you know so much more than the community here. Thanks for sharing. You will now be seen as quite knowledgeable here, way to go.

[MizzyMan]

[quote name='Forged_Irons' timestamp='1390707151' post='8533805']
[quote name='bph7' timestamp='1390688299' post='8531747']
Is this debate actually happening? Geez....

Forged, I've enjoyed your posts, but as has already been said and echoed a bunch, your description of how the ball flies based on its face angle and path at impact are just wrong. It's been proven that the face angle at impact determines about 80% of initial direction and path in relation to that determines curve. It doesn't matter what you, ballard, or even Jack FEEL or think you do. Those are feels. Please, for your own sake, if you really don't believe us, get on a trackman to convince yourself. If your feels help you, then great, but if you ever are trying to correct ball flight you are gonna mess yourself up by for example changing path to alter initial direction etc...
[/quote]
So Jack Nicholas is wrong in his explanation when he says that he sets up left of target (path) and aligns his club face at the target (face angle) and his ball fades from left to right?
[/quote]

[quote name='Forged_Irons' timestamp='1390707151' post='8533805']
[quote name='bph7' timestamp='1390688299' post='8531747']
Is this debate actually happening? Geez....

Forged, I've enjoyed your posts, but as has already been said and echoed a bunch, your description of how the ball flies based on its face angle and path at impact are just wrong. It's been proven that the face angle at impact determines about 80% of initial direction and path in relation to that determines curve. It doesn't matter what you, ballard, or even Jack FEEL or think you do. Those are feels. Please, for your own sake, if you really don't believe us, get on a trackman to convince yourself. If your feels help you, then great, but if you ever are trying to correct ball flight you are gonna mess yourself up by for example changing path to alter initial direction etc...
[/quote]
So Jack Nicholas is wrong in his explanation when he says that he sets up left of target (path) and aligns his club face at the target (face angle) and his ball fades from left to right?
[/quote]
First of all, if you're gonna use him in your explanation, it's NICKLAUS. Jeez.

And no, he's not "wrong", that's what he THOUGHT he did. In actuality, at impact his face was left of target, but just right of the club's path. THAT'S what made his ball start slightly left and fade towards the target. It was a feel that he ingrained through years and decades of perfecting. He THOUGHT the face was straight at the target but now we know, through technology, that it was left as well, just not as left as the path.

All the older guys I've heard discussing it kind of chuckle about it now, thinking what was happening was not what was really happening. I bet Jack NICKLAUS would even tell you now that he was not exactly right when explaining how to fade or draw.

[bph7]

[quote name='Forged_Irons' timestamp='1390707151' post='8533805']
[quote name='bph7' timestamp='1390688299' post='8531747']
Is this debate actually happening? Geez....

Forged, I've enjoyed your posts, but as has already been said and echoed a bunch, your description of how the ball flies based on its face angle and path at impact are just wrong. It's been proven that the face angle at impact determines about 80% of initial direction and path in relation to that determines curve. It doesn't matter what you, ballard, or even Jack FEEL or think you do. Those are feels. Please, for your own sake, if you really don't believe us, get on a trackman to convince yourself. If your feels help you, then great, but if you ever are trying to correct ball flight you are gonna mess yourself up by for example changing path to alter initial direction etc...
[/quote]
So Jack Nicholas is wrong in his explanation when he says that he sets up left of target (path) and aligns his club face at the target (face angle) and his ball fades from left to right?
[/quote]

I'm sure that's how he set up to play a fade if that's what he said, so he's correct about his own fade set up, yes. What you have never discussed in regard to jack is his face angle and path numbers at IMPACT, which is what this entire debate is about. If jack returned to impact with a face pointing directly at the target and a path to the left of that face angle, the shot would end up blocked right. There is no debate about that, it's a fact. But you wouldn't know about Jack's impact alignments, because you keep reverting back to an ultimately irrelevant concern: his setup angles/feels. Jack's setup angles to play a fade have nothing to do with the laws of ball flight behavior.

[Mitchell]

[quote name='Forged_Irons' timestamp='1390707916' post='8533903']
Oh, one last thing. With a sound swing the path always travels from in to square which is the in to out Nicholas is describing. More descriptively: It goes from in to out till it reaches the ball squares up and returns inside again past the ball. That is for a draw or a fade. IMHO (and apparently Nicklaus' also). Although I'm sure he has no need to add the disclaimer "IMHO". Ha
[/quote]What part of the fact that discussion has moved to another location in order for thread to go back to original topic of Ballard is so difficult for you to comprehend?

[Hstead]

This didn't take long. Listen closer to Jack than you did Foley please. Jack clearly states in the beginning the Trackman "changed the way I play".

That is right, your man Jack there is stating he has changed his understanding of what is going on to fade and draw the ball.

http://youtu.be/AlLmvUBHUbg

[Mitchell]

[quote name='Hstead' timestamp='1390708384' post='8533973']
This didn't take long. Listen closer to Jack than you did Foley please. Jack clearly states in the beginning the Trackman "changed the way I play".

That is right, your man Jack there is stating he has changed his understanding of what is going on to fade and draw the ball.

http://youtu.be/AlLmvUBHUbg
[/quote]Hstead, please just post in the other thread as you originally intended, you had a great idea and feel that this thread needs to get back on track.

[Forged_Irons]

[quote name='MizzyMan' timestamp='1390708065' post='8533931']
[quote name='Forged_Irons' timestamp='1390707151' post='8533805']
[quote name='bph7' timestamp='1390688299' post='8531747']
Is this debate actually happening? Geez....

Forged, I've enjoyed your posts, but as has already been said and echoed a bunch, your description of how the ball flies based on its face angle and path at impact are just wrong. It's been proven that the face angle at impact determines about 80% of initial direction and path in relation to that determines curve. It doesn't matter what you, ballard, or even Jack FEEL or think you do. Those are feels. Please, for your own sake, if you really don't believe us, get on a trackman to convince yourself. If your feels help you, then great, but if you ever are trying to correct ball flight you are gonna mess yourself up by for example changing path to alter initial direction etc...
[/quote]
So Jack Nicholas is wrong in his explanation when he says that he sets up left of target (path) and aligns his club face at the target (face angle) and his ball fades from left to right?
[/quote]

[quote name='Forged_Irons' timestamp='1390707151' post='8533805']
[quote name='bph7' timestamp='1390688299' post='8531747']
Is this debate actually happening? Geez....

Forged, I've enjoyed your posts, but as has already been said and echoed a bunch, your description of how the ball flies based on its face angle and path at impact are just wrong. It's been proven that the face angle at impact determines about 80% of initial direction and path in relation to that determines curve. It doesn't matter what you, ballard, or even Jack FEEL or think you do. Those are feels. Please, for your own sake, if you really don't believe us, get on a trackman to convince yourself. If your feels help you, then great, but if you ever are trying to correct ball flight you are gonna mess yourself up by for example changing path to alter initial direction etc...
[/quote]
So Jack Nicholas is wrong in his explanation when he says that he sets up left of target (path) and aligns his club face at the target (face angle) and his ball fades from left to right?
[/quote]
First of all, if you're gonna use him in your explanation, it's NICKLAUS. Jeez.

And no, he's not "wrong", that's what he THOUGHT he did. In actuality, at impact his face was left of target, but just right of the club's path. THAT'S what made his ball start slightly left and fade towards the target. It was a feel that he ingrained through years and decades of perfecting. He THOUGHT the face was straight at the target but now we know, through technology, that it was left as well, just not as left as the path.

All the older guys I've heard discussing it kind of chuckle about it now, thinking what was happening was not what was really happening. I bet Jack NICKLAUS would even tell you now that he was not exactly right when explaining how to fade or draw.
[/quote]
This doesn't disagree with anything I've said. If he set up left of target, of course his club face will be headed left as it releases through the ball( that is the path and the direction the ball will begin on) and of course the face will be slightly more open than the path because he set up with the face open to his path which is the target (which is what causes the fade spin). What you're saying is exactly correct. IMHO and it doesn't agree with the so called "new swing rules".

[Forged_Irons]

[quote name='nochrome' timestamp='1390708182' post='8533947']
[quote name='Forged_Irons' timestamp='1390707916' post='8533903']
Oh, one last thing. With a sound swing the path always travels from in to square which is the in to out Nicholas is describing. More descriptively: It goes from in to out till it reaches the ball squares up and returns inside again past the ball. That is for a draw or a fade. IMHO (and apparently Nicklaus' also). Although I'm sure he has no need to add the disclaimer "IMHO". Ha
[/quote]What part of the fact that discussion has moved to another location in order for thread to go back to original topic of Ballard is so difficult for you to comprehend?
[/quote]
Very civilized.

[Forged_Irons]

On a different note, can anyone tell me why I get many email replies that don't show up anywhere in this thread?

[Hoganstriker]

I think that trying to argue against physics is futile.
I also strongly believe that Ballards ideas about swinging are top notch and well proven.
I think it's worth bringing up that with a proper release as taught by Ballard that the face tends to be pretty square to the path and the ball tends to start on the stance line for a neutral shot.
This is fundamentally sound IMO.
Understanding tm can influence greatly the setup changes necessary to work the ball.
It should not change ones swing though ideally.
For my money it's better for most to stick with one shot over trying to work it all over but that's a different discussion.

[dlygrisse]

Back to Ballard, I have been re-reading his book, I really like his idea of triggering the swing with moving the right knee towards the ball. It's funny but he uses Nicklaus as an example...in Jack's book he talks about planting the left heel. BUT Jack also talks about rolling the ankles....which is a very similar feel IMO.

I am also a big fan of his philosophy of hitting the ball with your right side....golf being a left sided game for a right hander if very counter intuitive for me.

[thekru]

[quote name='dlygrisse' timestamp='1390719974' post='8534837']
Back to Ballard, I have been re-reading his book, I really like his idea of triggering the swing with moving the right knee towards the ball. It's funny but he uses Nicklaus as an example...in Jack's book he talks about planting the left heel. BUT Jack also talks about rolling the ankles....which is a very similar feel IMO.

[b]I am also a big fan of his philosophy of hitting the ball with your right side[/b]....golf being a left sided game for a right hander if very counter intuitive for me.
[/quote]

Big fan of this idea also. I have always had the tendency to hold lag too much and hit a lot of blocks. Using this idea of releasing the right side keeps me on plane much better in my downswing and I have a much more relaxed release. It helps me get my weight forward at impact with a nice flat left wrist.

[pinhigh27]

Not a ballard student, but I too enjoy the right side concept. I feel if overworked it can develop into some issues with the right side, but for me, my miss has always been left. When I'm playing well and flighting the ball well, all I worry about is pick up the club and firing right side through.
I feel like people that struggle with going right should worry about left side, and vice versa.

[MizzyMan]

[quote name='Forged_Irons' timestamp='1390708663' post='8533999']
[quote name='MizzyMan' timestamp='1390708065' post='8533931']
[quote name='Forged_Irons' timestamp='1390707151' post='8533805']
[quote name='bph7' timestamp='1390688299' post='8531747']
Is this debate actually happening? Geez....

Forged, I've enjoyed your posts, but as has already been said and echoed a bunch, your description of how the ball flies based on its face angle and path at impact are just wrong. It's been proven that the face angle at impact determines about 80% of initial direction and path in relation to that determines curve. It doesn't matter what you, ballard, or even Jack FEEL or think you do. Those are feels. Please, for your own sake, if you really don't believe us, get on a trackman to convince yourself. If your feels help you, then great, but if you ever are trying to correct ball flight you are gonna mess yourself up by for example changing path to alter initial direction etc...
[/quote]
So Jack Nicholas is wrong in his explanation when he says that he sets up left of target (path) and aligns his club face at the target (face angle) and his ball fades from left to right?
[/quote]

[quote name='Forged_Irons' timestamp='1390707151' post='8533805']
[quote name='bph7' timestamp='1390688299' post='8531747']
Is this debate actually happening? Geez....

Forged, I've enjoyed your posts, but as has already been said and echoed a bunch, your description of how the ball flies based on its face angle and path at impact are just wrong. It's been proven that the face angle at impact determines about 80% of initial direction and path in relation to that determines curve. It doesn't matter what you, ballard, or even Jack FEEL or think you do. Those are feels. Please, for your own sake, if you really don't believe us, get on a trackman to convince yourself. If your feels help you, then great, but if you ever are trying to correct ball flight you are gonna mess yourself up by for example changing path to alter initial direction etc...
[/quote]
So Jack Nicholas is wrong in his explanation when he says that he sets up left of target (path) and aligns his club face at the target (face angle) and his ball fades from left to right?
[/quote]
First of all, if you're gonna use him in your explanation, it's NICKLAUS. Jeez.

And no, he's not "wrong", that's what he THOUGHT he did. In actuality, at impact his face was left of target, but just right of the club's path. THAT'S what made his ball start slightly left and fade towards the target. It was a feel that he ingrained through years and decades of perfecting. He THOUGHT the face was straight at the target but now we know, through technology, that it was left as well, just not as left as the path.

All the older guys I've heard discussing it kind of chuckle about it now, thinking what was happening was not what was really happening. I bet Jack NICKLAUS would even tell you now that he was not exactly right when explaining how to fade or draw.
[/quote]
This doesn't disagree with anything I've said. If he set up left of target, of course his club face will be headed left as it releases through the ball( that is the path and the direction the ball will begin on) and of course the face will be slightly more open than the path because he set up with the face open to his path which is the target (which is what causes the fade spin). What you're saying is exactly correct. IMHO and it doesn't agree with the so called "new swing rules".
[/quote]
Not quite. Where the disagreement is the amount the face is "open". If he is lined up left, and swings on that path, and the face is open to the path and aligned with the flagstick, the ball will start at the flagstick line and fade from there. To fade it TO the flagstick, the face would need to be right of the stance/path, but left of the flagstick. THAT'S where the confusion lies. People used to think the face was aligned at the flagstick at impact, but now we know the face was still aligned LEFT of the flagstick, but still RIGHT of the path. Only very high-tech equipment, not available until the last few years, has been able to show EXACTLY what happens at impact and the effect on the ball. Granted, often there's only a couple/few degrees difference in face direction as to where one THINKS it is and to where it ACTUALLY is. That's why some can't understand that legends like Nicklaus were actually slightly incorrect about what the face was doing at impact. And closure rate has NO bearing on direction of the ball, it only touches the face for a minuscule fraction of a second. Only the direction it's aligned matters (and to a smaller extent, it's path), not how fast it's closing or if it's being held off. Another tidbit proven by high-tech equipment that really can't be argued. Not even by you, Johnny Miller.

[Forged_Irons]

So, basically, if I understand this correctly, Nicklaus (it's my spell checker that keeps changing his name btw, tired or fighting it.). Was doing what he said he was doing, just to a slightly lesser degree?

Back to Ballard, there is an inner pull with the left side but not too many people know how to do it properly and end up pulling the butt of the club into a blocked position where they have to flip their hands. I like to think of firing my right side also and letting the left passively "thumb t
a ride".

[PreppySlapCut]

[quote name='pinhigh27' timestamp='1390754723' post='8536301']
Not a ballard student, but I too enjoy the right side concept. I feel if overworked it can develop into some issues with the right side, but for me, my miss has always been left. When I'm playing well and flighting the ball well, all I worry about is pick up the club and firing right side through.
I feel like people that struggle with going right should worry about left side, and vice versa.
[/quote]
One thing that changes a bit when talking Ballard is that the setup and plane are more vertical. This makes a zeroed out path (or at least a much-closer-to-zeroed-out path) more likely, and tends to produce straighter shots. However, because of the more upright plane and relatively neutral clubface, your main miss tends to be a wipe. By firing your right side more aggressively, you lessen the chance for the wipe.

[Forged_Irons]

Check out Curtis Strange's book "win and win again", full of Ballard concepts. I especially like the exercise of throwing the heavy bag. Very much like Hogan's medicine ball exercise. Really forces you to swing with the core and not hands and arms.

[Forged_Irons]

[quote name='PreppySlapCut' timestamp='1390762079' post='8536933']
[quote name='pinhigh27' timestamp='1390754723' post='8536301']
Not a ballard student, but I too enjoy the right side concept. I feel if overworked it can develop into some issues with the right side, but for me, my miss has always been left. When I'm playing well and flighting the ball well, all I worry about is pick up the club and firing right side through.
I feel like people that struggle with going right should worry about left side, and vice versa.
[/quote]
One thing that changes a bit when talking Ballard is that the setup and plane are more vertical. This makes a zeroed out path (or at least a much-closer-to-zeroed-out path) more likely, and tends to produce straighter shots. However, because of the more upright plane and relatively neutral clubface, your main miss tends to be a wipe. By firing your right side more aggressively, you lessen the chance for the wipe.
[/quote]
What causes you to wipe?

[Forged_Irons]

[quote name='Hoganstriker' timestamp='1390715735' post='8534649']
I think that trying to argue against physics is futile.
I also strongly believe that Ballards ideas about swinging are top notch and well proven.
I think it's worth bringing up that with a proper release as taught by Ballard that the face tends to be pretty square to the path and the ball tends to start on the stance line for a neutral shot.
This is fundamentally sound IMO.
Understanding tm can influence greatly the setup changes necessary to work the ball.
It should not change ones swing though ideally.
For my money it's better for most to stick with one shot over trying to work it all over but that's a different discussion.
[/quote]

Well said. Less is more I suppose.

[PreppySlapCut]

[quote name='Forged_Irons' timestamp='1390761821' post='8536917']
So, basically, if I understand this correctly, Nicklaus (it's my spell checker that keeps changing his name btw, tired or fighting it.). Was doing what he said he was doing, just to a slightly lesser degree?

Back to Ballard, there is an inner pull with the left side but not too many people know how to do it properly and end up pulling the butt of the club into a blocked position where they have to flip their hands. I like to think of firing my right side also and letting the left passively "thumb a ride".
[/quote]
No, Nicklaus just figured out how to adjust his aim to accommodate his feeling for working it both ways. His technical explanation was incorrect. Didn't matter for him, but for the sake of accuracy and explaining the game accurately to those less athletic than the GOAT (read:almost everyone) it's preferable to understand what's actually happening.

Ballard does a great explanation of getting back into that ideal impact position when he talks about Sutton. He says Hal wanted to feel like, after starting to reverse the direction with the lower body, he was piercing his heart with his left elbow. Obviously feels will be different for everyone. But to me that facilitates the left side getting out of the way and the right being able to fire on through. As long as you maintain connection and keep your arms sync'd up with your pivot, it should help people avoid the aforementioned blocked position.

[PreppySlapCut]

[quote name='Forged_Irons' timestamp='1390762297' post='8536965']
What causes you to wipe?
[/quote]
Right side gets a little passive or you get a little ahead of it (upper body moving too lateral). Usually results in ball that's not compressed and starts a little right with some cut.

[bph7]

Speaking of Curtis strange, I just love this video of his swing from the late 80s, when he was at the peak of his powers:

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=R6cH5GAQnlk&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DR6cH5GAQnlk

Just such a sweet move. Forged, would you say this is the best example of a Ballard move?

[JPGolf FL]

I have never studied much Ballard so i decided to check out a video or two. It seems to me that his whole "you can't turn" and "the head can't stay still" mumbo-jumbo sales pitch is due to a complete lack of understanding of how thoracic TURN and thoracic TILT works. He is standing there in front of a class making these ridiculous motions trying to prove his points. I truly think he has zero thoracic spine mobility so he thinks the only way to move the shoulders is to move the entire spine. If I had been in this class I could have showed him very quickly how to do everything he is saying is impossible.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=fPlXggMYXHY

[JPGolf FL]

It's why Rocco's swing looks like this

http://youtube.com/watch?v=HyoKHDwr3U8

And Gary Woodlands swing looks like this

http://youtube.com/watch?v=-9xE9xj1du4
No one can possibly say his head is not still, and he is clearly not reverse pivoting. So what Ballard said was impossible is very much possible if the thoracic spine is used correctly.

[Forged_Irons]

[quote name='JPGolf FL' timestamp='1390772885' post='8538065']
I have never studied much Ballard so i decided to check out a video or two. It seems to me that his whole "you can't turn" and "the head can't stay still" mumbo-jumbo sales pitch is due to a complete lack of understanding of how thoracic TURN and thoracic TILT works. He is standing there in front of a class making these ridiculous motions trying to prove his points. I truly think he has zero thoracic spine mobility so he thinks the only way to move the shoulders is to move the entire spine. If I had been in this class I could have showed him very quickly how to do everything he is saying is impossible.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=fPlXggMYXHY
[/quote]
You obviously don't know what Jimmy teaches. He teaches you to set up and swing just as you would in other sports. Tennis, hockey, baseball, etc. in all if these endeavors you move your spine and head to maintain your balance. Just the same as Hogan advocates when he uses the analogy of the short stop throwing to the second baseman. Can't be conveyed over internet postings or you tube clips. If you think staying over the ball and tilting and turning is the answer then stick with it.
Gary woodland muscles the ball with a stiff left arm block move. Everything Jimmy teaches is based on RELEASING the club head. Most of the Track Man ball rules seem to be predicated on swings that attempt to maintain a face angle all the way through that ball and not on swings with a good release.

[Forged_Irons]

[quote name='bph7' timestamp='1390768890' post='8537639']
Speaking of Curtis strange, I just love this video of his swing from the late 80s, when he was at the peak of his powers:

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=R6cH5GAQnlk&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DR6cH5GAQnlk

Just such a sweet move. Forged, would you say this is the best example of a Ballard move?
[/quote]

I heard from a guy that spoke with Jimmy at this year's PGA show in Orlando, and apparently Jimmy said the best two swings he ever saw were George Knudsen and Annika Sorenstam.

[bph7]

[quote name='Forged_Irons' timestamp='1390773986' post='8538225']
[quote name='JPGolf FL' timestamp='1390772885' post='8538065']
I have never studied much Ballard so i decided to check out a video or two. It seems to me that his whole "you can't turn" and "the head can't stay still" mumbo-jumbo sales pitch is due to a complete lack of understanding of how thoracic TURN and thoracic TILT works. He is standing there in front of a class making these ridiculous motions trying to prove his points. I truly think he has zero thoracic spine mobility so he thinks the only way to move the shoulders is to move the entire spine. If I had been in this class I could have showed him very quickly how to do everything he is saying is impossible.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=fPlXggMYXHY
[/quote]
You obviously don't know what Jimmy teaches. He teaches you to set up and swing just as you would in other sports. Tennis, hockey, baseball, etc. in all if these endeavors you move your spine and head to maintain your balance. Just the same as Hogan advocates when he uses the analogy of the short stop throwing to the second baseman. Can't be conveyed over internet postings or you tube clips. If you think staying over the ball and tilting and turning is the answer then stick with it.
Gary woodland muscles the ball with a stiff left arm block move. Everything Jimmy teaches is based on RELEASING the club head. Most of the Track Man ball rules seem to be predicated on swings that attempt to maintain a face angle all the way through that ball and not on swings with a good release.
[/quote]

Once again, these so called "rules" have nothing to do inherently with trackman or the type of swing. They reference how a ball struck by an object with a certain face angle and path reacts in the air. These are principles of physics, not some conspiracy brought on by trackman to make Ballards teachings look bad. Also, I think we should derail this thread again and go back into the ball flight laws. We tried to get it back on Ballard, but forged doesn't seem interested in letting it go, so I m not either.

[Hstead]

We created an entire thread for the ball flight laws but Forged refuses to participate because he is out numbered 95% to 5%. He doesn't want to go over there and admit that he has no clue of what he speaks.

Describing Gary Woodlands swing the way you have speaks volumes. You really need to read and learn more than type. Again, I am trying to cut you some slack since you are newer here. There are great instructors on this site and many members that have played as pros and even more am's that are way on the plus side of the handicap scale. You are a confessed 8 handicap. Do you really think you know so much more about the golf swing than guys that successfully played professionally and now teach it for a living? Perfect example is PuppetMaster. He has tried to be kind to you because he likes some of Ballards principles, but at the same time he understands the ball flight laws and what is really happening. He teaches golf. He mentioned "whipey cuts". You assumed he meant for himself. He meant the guys that he teaches on the range. He understands cause and effect. He understands way more than just the Ballard method. In my opinion, he understands way more about what is going on in the swing than Jimmy himself. And I promise you he knows more about the swing than Wozeniak, that guy is a fool.

You are trying to discuss a "rotary type release" yet you are describing a stall flip release with the toe flying over. Gary Woodland releases the club and he does it with his pivot, but you have no idea what that means because you have been brain washed with the Ballard BS.

[JPGolf FL]

[quote name='Forged_Irons' timestamp='1390773986' post='8538225']
[quote name='JPGolf FL' timestamp='1390772885' post='8538065']
I have never studied much Ballard so i decided to check out a video or two. It seems to me that his whole "you can't turn" and "the head can't stay still" mumbo-jumbo sales pitch is due to a complete lack of understanding of how thoracic TURN and thoracic TILT works. He is standing there in front of a class making these ridiculous motions trying to prove his points. I truly think he has zero thoracic spine mobility so he thinks the only way to move the shoulders is to move the entire spine. If I had been in this class I could have showed him very quickly how to do everything he is saying is impossible.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=fPlXggMYXHY
[/quote]
You obviously don't know what Jimmy teaches. He teaches you to set up and swing just as you would in other sports. Tennis, hockey, baseball, etc. in all if these endeavors you move your spine and head to maintain your balance. Just the same as Hogan advocates when he uses the analogy of the short stop throwing to the second baseman. Can't be conveyed over internet postings or you tube clips. If you think staying over the ball and tilting and turning is the answer then stick with it.
Gary woodland muscles the ball with a stiff left arm block move. Everything Jimmy teaches is based on RELEASING the club head. Most of the Track Man ball rules seem to be predicated on swings that attempt to maintain a face angle all the way through that ball and not on swings with a good release.
[/quote]

You yourself said "no turn" and "you can't keep the head still". How is that not what he teaches? I simply showed that you can turn without moving the whole spine and you can keep the head still. Other than that I do not know what Ballard teaches. But in his words those are two of the things his ideas are built around. So his ideas are built around a false premise due to his own lack of thoracic spine mobility and flat out lack of understanding of the thoracic spine. He says you can't turn the shoulders because they are two joints..... Wtf??? The entire shoulder girdle rotates (turns) via the thoracic spine..... It's not that hard to grasp.