The ballad of Jimmy Ballard...

[Forged_Irons]

[quote name='eightiron' timestamp='1390921027' post='8550103']
[quote name='Forged_Irons' timestamp='1390879336' post='8548149']
[quote name='JPGolf FL' timestamp='1390853124' post='8544717']
[quote name='PreppySlapCut' timestamp='1390852105' post='8544573']
When did I insinuate pieces matching should be credited to Ballard? I'm saying the reason his method works is because the pieces he implements fit together. Go pick up a copy of his book or spend some time around one of his disciples (or him) and you'll get a grasp of what he espouses.

He ABSOLUTELY teaches nothing but HIS method. Make no mistake about that.
[/quote]
I asked what else he teaches that is different than others and you led with "it's all about the pieces fitting together"........ I took that the wrong way I guess. You meant HIS pieces fitting together. And FWIW I have no interest in being near Ballard. He is dripping with "used car salesman" IMO. I just still have not heard what makes him so special to some, other than the untruths he spouts in the video I posted. That seems to be the common denominator. Maybe that appeals to people who have t-spine mobility issues so they think he is right??
[/quote]
Look, if you read a little about Ballard you'll find that he learned everything about the swing from Sam Byrd, who (Byrd) applied everything he learned about hitting a ball with a stick, in baseball, (from Babe Ruth himself) to golf and found only one difference. ONE. That the plane in baseball is flat and in golf it's tilted. (The plane, not the player). Byrd was the only baseball player to win on the golf tour, and actually came in second to Byron Nelson in a major. In case you haven't ever read these facts, Byrd is also responsible for teaching Hogan to transform his action to a more connected athletic swing in part by using the handkerchief under his left arm. This was the beginning of Hogan's meteoric rise. Ok now for the part you're really missing: Ballard (already a proficient amateur at the time) began working for Sam Byrd at his driving range and learned everything he espouses about swinging first hand from Byrd. Let me break it down for you. Babe Ruth > Sam Byrd > Hogan and Ballard. It's not difficult once you know these facts to see why Ballard has the utmost confidence that the fundamentals he teaches are THE fundamentals. THE fundamentals that apply in every athletic endeavor. So call that snake oil if you will but I think those with more discerning minds and superior judgement will ultimately see right through this. Personally I don't trust any professional that teaches that golf is different than other athletics and/or there are 1000s of good ways to swing (ie no rules) and needs to be addressed and taught as such. That to me is the epitome of snake oil.
Look, actually, there are tens of millions of ways to hit a ball, I'll give you that, but there's only one BEST way. The ATHLETIC way. That's what Jimmy teaches.
[/quote]

Jeff Martin did a lot of research on any Byrd , Hogan and Ballard connection and came to the conclusion it's all nonsense
[/quote]
Can't speak to the dates, but you can clearly see that is hogans old swing. Hogan never swung his arms that far before his change. I think it's pretty clear what the photo is an example of. Hogan "pre-connection".

[Dr.John]

This thread was a nice story about a guy who tried various swing methods and finally found one that he made progress with and found enjoyment playing golf. It has now turned into a hit job by a few who obviously have an issue with Jimmy Ballard. If you guys seriously want answers to your questions reguarding Jimmy's methods, why are you wasting your time asking someone who doesn't know him. Jimmy has a twitter account that I'm sure you can use to seek answers to your questions, or you can find his email through any number of avenues. This constant bickering and lack of respect towards our golfing brothers has caused this forum to lose the valuable contributions of many great teachers/members like ITeach and Slicefixer. Well done "gentleman"!

[Forged_Irons]

[quote name='pinhigh27' timestamp='1391039693' post='8560930']
[quote name='Forged_Irons' timestamp='1391039299' post='8560890']
[quote name='Hstead' timestamp='1391034603' post='8560462']
Forged, evidently you didn;t watch the video, which happens to be Jacks instruction video, where he didn't draw a circle but rather a straight line right down the middle. Let's also not pay any attention that Jack says he is trying to do just that since that would be completely hypocritical to argue at one point that "Jack said ..................." and then ignore it now.

Please show us one video where Jack is moving his head well to the right like Ballard claims he does.

Then, I will show you three dozen of the best Tour players right now and from the past that do not move their heads to the right even thou Ballard claims it cannot be done. Or of course you get the old "in an athletic swing" non-sense. Tiger Woods is pretty dang athletic. He used to move his head well to the right. Now he doesn't. Not only that he is working on keeping it more still.

And then there is your claim that Ballard doesn't bash other instructors. Are you serious? Do I need to start posting videos of Ballard claiming everyone is copying him but doing it wrong and making fun? Or do I need to link to your "Expert" Wozeniak saying horrendous things about Foley who happens to be making a heck of a lot more money than Ballard or Wozeniak combined from Tour players paying him for his advice?
[/quote]
1)Ok, I can see where your mind is set. Jack Nicklaus also said Jack Grout used to hold his hair to keep him over the ball. Jack Grout himself has said he never did any such thing.
2) And yes you can play golf by holding your head over the ball but Jimmy simply says it's not the best way.
3) I've had a lesson with Jimmy Ballard. Have you had a lesson with Sean Foley?
4) Tiger is a shadow of the player he used to be in 2000 when he moved into his right side better. All the stats back this up.
[/quote]

How can you possibly compare a guy post injuries and traumatic life events to a guy fresh on tour, world at his feet rearing to go?
[/quote]
That's the same excuse I've heard over and over and over. First someone cites tiger as the poster child for the foley centered pivot (or whatever you call it) and then when tigers performance is called into question, all of a sudden he's some poor cripple or his short game is terrible or he can't putt anymore. Can't have it both ways. His driving accuracy, total driving, GIR, and proximity to the hole have all gone way down. Stats verify this.
Also, Rocco is playing better than he ever has at 50+ with chronic back problems and tiger is striking the ball with the least consistency of his career so far. (He probably doesn't have a firm grasp on toes "new rules" yet.

[Forged_Irons]

[quote name='Forged_Irons' timestamp='1391040368' post='8561022']
[quote name='pinhigh27' timestamp='1391039693' post='8560930']
[quote name='Forged_Irons' timestamp='1391039299' post='8560890']
[quote name='Hstead' timestamp='1391034603' post='8560462']
Forged, evidently you didn;t watch the video, which happens to be Jacks instruction video, where he didn't draw a circle but rather a straight line right down the middle. Let's also not pay any attention that Jack says he is trying to do just that since that would be completely hypocritical to argue at one point that "Jack said ..................." and then ignore it now.

Please show us one video where Jack is moving his head well to the right like Ballard claims he does.

Then, I will show you three dozen of the best Tour players right now and from the past that do not move their heads to the right even thou Ballard claims it cannot be done. Or of course you get the old "in an athletic swing" non-sense. Tiger Woods is pretty dang athletic. He used to move his head well to the right. Now he doesn't. Not only that he is working on keeping it more still.

And then there is your claim that Ballard doesn't bash other instructors. Are you serious? Do I need to start posting videos of Ballard claiming everyone is copying him but doing it wrong and making fun? Or do I need to link to your "Expert" Wozeniak saying horrendous things about Foley who happens to be making a heck of a lot more money than Ballard or Wozeniak combined from Tour players paying him for his advice?
[/quote]
1)Ok, I can see where your mind is set. Jack Nicklaus also said Jack Grout used to hold his hair to keep him over the ball. Jack Grout himself has said he never did any such thing.
2) And yes you can play golf by holding your head over the ball but Jimmy simply says it's not the best way.
3) I've had a lesson with Jimmy Ballard. Have you had a lesson with Sean Foley?
4) Tiger is a shadow of the player he used to be in 2000 when he moved into his right side better. All the stats back this up.
[/quote]

How can you possibly compare a guy post injuries and traumatic life events to a guy fresh on tour, world at his feet rearing to go?
[/quote]
That's the same excuse I've heard over and over and over. First someone cites tiger as the poster child for the foley centered pivot (or whatever you call it) and then when tigers performance is called into question, all of a sudden he's some poor cripple or his short game is terrible or he can't putt anymore. Can't have it both ways. His driving accuracy, total driving, GIR, and proximity to the hole have all gone way down. Stats verify this.
Also, Rocco is playing better than he ever has at 50+ with chronic back problems and tiger is striking the ball with the least consistency of his career so far. (He probably doesn't have a firm grasp on toes "new rules" yet.
[/quote]
Traumatic events, that's a total heap! Who has lived without traumatic events. Compared to most he's led a charmed life.

[Forged_Irons]

[quote name='Dr.John' timestamp='1391040329' post='8561012']
This thread was a nice story about a guy who tried various swing methods and finally found one that he made progress with and found enjoyment playing golf. It has now turned into a hit job by a few who obviously have an issue with Jimmy Ballard. If you guys seriously want answers to your questions reguarding Jimmy's methods, why are you wasting your time asking someone who doesn't know him. Jimmy has a twitter account that I'm sure you can use to seek answers to your questions, or you can find his email through any number avenues. This constant bickering and lack of respect towards our golfing brothers has caused this forum to lose the valuable contributions of many great teachers/members like ITeach and Slicefixer. Well done "gentleman"!
[/quote]

Dr John,

You are absolutely correct. I've said all I can. I will leave the finer points to the professionals.
You are the voice of reason.

[ej002]

Bickering is not why Slice or Iteach left - good assumption though.

[Dr.John]

[quote name='ej002' timestamp='1391040771' post='8561070']
Bickering is not why Slice or Iteach left - good assumption though.
[/quote]

Actually, the constant disrespect they received while being posters here IS. It's not an assumption either, I've talked to both of them about it. Perhaps you are the one who assumes.

[ej002]

So have I.

[Dr.John]

[quote name='ej002' timestamp='1391041131' post='8561116']
So have I.
[/quote]

Bravo!! But you weren't there during my lessons, so don't tell me what our conversations detailed.

[ej002]

Don't tell me either

[Dr.John]

[quote name='ej002' timestamp='1391041487' post='8561152']
Don't tell me either
[/quote]

Where exactly did I? You challenged what I was told. From what I can gather, you are exactly the kind of "Richard" ITeach was referring to when we talked. Good day, Troll on

[ej002]

Haha - your pretty smart there.

[Forged_Irons]

[quote name='danattherock' timestamp='1337380437' post='4939818']
I just found an [b]extremely [/b]insightful post in an older thread. About ten years old.

Whomever this guy is, he knows his stuff.




[b][size="3"][color="#333333"]You could imagine a square clubface to the path as being angle free. But how do you accomplish that? Jimmy talks about angles as being created when the [/color]left [color="#333333"]elbow does not point down in the swing or when the butt-end of the club is out of center. When you destroy either of these two things (this is also a form of disconnection), you create an angle, the clubface is no longer square and the golf ball starts to curve. [/color][/size]


[size="3"][color="#333333"]For instance, if your roll the club behind you to the inside when you coil on the backswing, the butt-end of the club is pointing to right field (in baseball terms) and the [/color]left [color="#333333"]elbow is pointing out in front of you. You've now just destroyed the triangle established at address and created an "angle". You will now have to reroute the club to hit the ball squarely. Conversely, if you drag the club away into the backswing, with the butt-end pointing behind you, you've created an angle as well. [/color][/size]

[size="3"][color="#333333"]Same kind of things can happen on the downswing. Pulling the butt-end at the ball, sliding your hips toward the target or tucking the right elbow all create angles as well.[/color][/size]

[size="3"][color="#333333"]You should always maintain the triangle formed between the butt-end of the club and your [/color]arms[color="#333333"] throughout, as well as keep the [/color]left[color="#333333"] elbow pointing down. Doing both go hand in hand and are part of "connection". It's hard to hit a golf shot that curves if you're doing that (assuming you're not manipulating or flipping the club with your hands).[/color][/size]

[size="3"][color="#333333"]At this point, you may be thinking about the change of direction destroying the triangle. However, if you "spring" the shaft with the right side, instead of pulling down or tucking the right elbow, you will maintain the triangle/center and the [/color]left [color="#333333"]elbow will point down. I don't want to get too side-tracked here but an easy way to think about it is; the right elbow/triangle folds "up" on the backswing. It then unfolds through impact (returning to where it started at address) and finally the [/color]left [color="#333333"]elbow folds "down" and up into the finish. [/color][/size]

[size="3"][color="#333333"]It's unfortunate that some people take one look at Jimmy's teaching and see an overly wide stance and lateral sway. It turns a lot of people off. However, you have to look beyond the cover of the book. It's too bad that not many people have seen Sam Byrd's swing (Jimmy's teacher). He had a much more free flowing swing. One that led him to over 20 wins on tour in a very short period. We have to remember that Jimmy systematized what he learned from Sam over the years. He did so to teach the fundamentals in an easy to understand, systematic manner. [/color][/size]

[size="3"][color="#333333"]There is room for interpretation down the road. Sam himself taught more like a Harvey Penick. Jimmy has a great way of talking about the swing as it relates to other sports. That, along with introducing video to teaching is why he is such a great teacher.... Sorry for the rant, I just think there may be people out there that have no idea who Jimmy Ballard is, or where his teaching comes from.[/color][/size]


[size="3"][color="#333333"]Anyway, that's a little more about "angles".[/color][/size]





[/b]
[color="#333333"]From...[/color]

[url="http://www.freegolfinfo.com/forums/tm.aspx?m=131218&mpage=1&key=soft%2Cleft%2Carm"]http://www.freegolfi...ft%2Cleft%2Carm[/url]
[/quote]
Wow! I'm glad I decided to retread some of this stuff! This post was fantastic. Sometimes I think Jimmy gets a really bad rap because his swing is not distance oriented (although I find it plenty long), but has a greater emphasis on accuracy (not creating and un-creating angles and/or connection). I think you can certainly get some extra distance (tiger sometimes did in the early 2000s) by a bit of disconnection at the left armpit at the top, or working some severe angles (a la lever style swing techniques) but this inevitably leads to directional issues. I hear tell that Hogan hit nearly (if not every) every fairway at the Open he won at Carnoustie. Folkes attribute this astounding consistency to the Hogan mistique much more than the fact that he was more connected than anybody and he didn't creat angles in his swing. If the club is always in center how can you "wipe" it?!

[glcoach]

You wipe it by getting the body too "in front of it" on the way down.

Jimmy helped a lot of tour players by getting them to move off of it a bit more because the player already had an overly aggressive weight shift to begin with. The move off the ball helped hem stay more behind it..

The force plate technology has allowed us to peer in to what the best ball strikers do in this regard.

A lot of old timers get absolutely flamed for saying things like " it feels like you are hitting off of your back foot". The reality is, they are not far off. The best ball strikers are only 70 % on their lead leg halfway in the downswing. The conclusion that the weight shift is way more gradual than some people teach. A lot of golfers, especially if they played other sports, shift their weight very aggressively, with up to 95% of their weight on the front foot at the halfway point of e downswing. This causes wipes and blocks or snap hooks.

A lot of these guys got better because Jimmy gave them more time, via the move off the ball to counteract their already aggressive weight shift. It's also why a lot of Ams get better using his method.

The takeaway is that overly aggressive weight shifts at the beginning of the downswing need to be tempered. It is a more gradual shift, way more gradual than even I thought, it "feels" like I am still on my back foot because 70% weight on the front foot feels really different from 95%.

Just my thoughts. Technology I'd showing us why, through different feels, some swing theories evolved. It is really interesting and proves that there is a lot of good in all methods. Overdoing concepts is what holds many golfers back.

[Forged_Irons]

[quote name='naia73' timestamp='1337730530' post='4961016']
I met Jimmy Ballard two years ago at Ocean Reef he was between lessons and I was hitting balls. We talked for one and a half hours he could not have been nicer
[/quote]
When my buddy and I went to see Jimmy at ocean reef he spent 2 extra hours with us in the classroom and on the range. Gratis.
Afterwards, we met Jimmy and his wife Lori (who couldn't have been more hospitable) at a local joint for a late lunch etc. We talked for a couple more hours over refreshments. I got the impression that Jimmy could have talked all day with us. I found him to be extremely friendly, down to earth, and encyclopedic in his golf experience.

[Big L]

Watched Champions tour learning center the other night and saw Ballard and Rocco. I was intrigued by some of the stuff they said so I decided to look him up on here and found this thread, reading all 14 pages in one sitting. Very interesting stuff, shame it all went to crap around page 5. Does anybody know if Dan has continued to have success with this method (I'm pretty close to ordering the book)

[jerry1967]

Talk to Jimmy Ballard on twitter and he told me he is working on new book and or tape to explain his teachings. I for one am looking forward to this book/tape.

[stryper]

[quote name='jerry1967' timestamp='1391809954' post='8618685']
Talk to Jimmy Ballard on twitter and he told me he is working on new book and or tape to explain his teachings. I for one am looking forward to this book/tape.
[/quote]

Nice.

[Forged_Irons]

[quote name='jerry1967' timestamp='1391809954' post='8618685']
Talk to Jimmy Ballard on twitter and he told me he is working on new book and or tape to explain his teachings. I for one am looking forward to this book/tape.
[/quote]
That's cool, I tried to talk with him on twitter but didn't hear back.

[Joe Duffer]

Jimmy Ballard and Rocco Mediate on RollYourRock's YouTube channel... [size=5]"Pain-Free Golf"[/size]

[media=]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zw_cNOd0wYs[/media]

[Joe Duffer]

[color=#282828]Jimmy Ballard and Rocco Mediate on RollYourRock's YouTube channel...[size=5] "Wedge Play"[/size][/color]

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oyYnzZ-xoxw"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oyYnzZ-xoxw[/url]

[Forged_Irons]

Oops

[countach711]

[quote name='Forged_Irons' timestamp='1390599069' post='8525517']
[quote name='Hstead' timestamp='1390597995' post='8525393']
Kenny Perry has his face approximately 3 degrees right of the target at impact and his path is 6 degrees right of his target on average according to TM. It has nothing to do with paralysis by analysis and everything to do with physics and what is actually happening at impact. You do not hit a draw with the face "closing" or "toe wrapping around" the ball. That has all been debunked a long time ago. The face determines the start line for the most part, over 80% and the path determines curve. This is really not new. But evidently Steve still doesn't understand it. Having a face 3 degrees left of the 6 degree rightward path is not glancing. As pin mentioned earlier, a 1.50 smash is a 1.50 smash regardless of path and face.
[/quote]
If perry didn't release it it wouldn't draw. He's hitting the ball to the right to draw it. His intended target line is to the right of the actual target. So his club face is actually square to his intended target line it appears open in relation to a straight target line. If he didn't release the toe the ball would go straight right. The opposite would be true for a fader of the ball, the face would appear closed at impact but square to the intended target line left of the actual target.
Do you understand now?
[/quote]

While you may be right about Perry's angles, you are describing it incorrectly by saying the club face is square to his intended target line. If his intended target line is 6 degrees to the right but his face angle is only 3 degrees right of target then the club face is 3 degrees closed relative to his swing path.

[FlyFish]

In the video above, Ballard talks about Hogan "holding a dime", and by that Ballard means the feeling of holding a dime between your glutes (it's in his book). I'm not read anything from Hogan recommending this feeling - does anybody else know if this really did originate from Hogan?

[tembolo1284]

Holding a dime between his butt cheeks you mean? Yikes!

[smotherhook]

[quote name='tembolo1284' timestamp='1393864306' post='8787352']
Holding a dime between his butt cheeks you mean? Yikes!
[/quote]

Parents used to tell kids, "don't put money in your mouth, it's dirty." I guess so.

[smotherhook]

[quote name='FlyFish' timestamp='1393826768' post='8785412']
In the video above, Ballard talks about Hogan "holding a dime", and by that Ballard means the feeling of holding a dime between your glutes (it's in his book). I'm not read anything from Hogan recommending this feeling - does anybody else know if this really did originate from Hogan?
[/quote]

[smotherhook]

I'm almost sure Hogan didn't say anything about that feeling. I do remember Ballard writing something to the effect that if you don't fire the right side, you'll misplace some loose change. I lent out my copy years ago and don't know where it is now. I think it is a real good book for someone to get the basic concepts of swinging anything. Most of my golfing crowd doesn't study the swing like most of us, and they are looking for that magic pill.

[trapsmv15]

I've always gravitated toward Jimmy's swing method due to various physical issues - sad to see that this thread had gone so wrong. Dan, please come back and share some updates!

I tend to have misses on the heel swinging this way; unfortunately, the closest Ballard teacher to me is in PA! Anyone with a little insight as to the certain misses and why? (Perhaps the getting in front of it part applies to me - closed stance and in to out path causing the heel miss.)

Ryan

[tembolo1284]

So what's up with Ballard these days?