The ballad of Jimmy Ballard...

[bell812]

Heavy hit AND wrapping the clubface around the ball? Oh man.

[JPGolf FL]

[quote name='Forged_Irons' timestamp='1390615452' post='8527037']
[quote name='Hstead' timestamp='1390599698' post='8525565']
Let me make sure what you are saying. So he is drawing the ball by "releasing the toe"? His face is square to his start line? And the toe closing causes it to draw? What does the path do?
[/quote]
You are correct in your understanding. The path is the the line the ball starts on. [quote name='PreppySlapCut' timestamp='1390614152' post='8526919']
[quote name='Forged_Irons' timestamp='1390599069' post='8525517']
[quote name='Hstead' timestamp='1390597995' post='8525393']
Kenny Perry has his face approximately 3 degrees right of the target at impact and his path is 6 degrees right of his target on average according to TM. It has nothing to do with paralysis by analysis and everything to do with physics and what is actually happening at impact. You do not hit a draw with the face "closing" or "toe wrapping around" the ball. That has all been debunked a long time ago. The face determines the start line for the most part, over 80% and the path determines curve. This is really not new. But evidently Steve still doesn't understand it. Having a face 3 degrees left of the 6 degree rightward path is not glancing. As pin mentioned earlier, a 1.50 smash is a 1.50 smash regardless of path and face.
[/quote]
If perry didn't release it it wouldn't draw. He's hitting the ball to the right to draw it. His intended target line is to the right of the actual target. So his club face is actually square to his intended target line it appears open in relation to a straight target line. If he didn't release the toe the ball would go straight right. The opposite would be true for a fader of the ball, the face would appear closed at impact but square to the intended target line left of the actual target.
Do you understand now?
[/quote]
What you're saying is inaccurate. Shot shape is determined by the differential in path and face angle at the moment of impact (assuming centered impact). Closure rate does not effect ball flight in a given shot.
[/quote]
Don't recall saying anything about closure rate. A draw is caused by spinning the ball slightly counterclockwise (if the clock were on the ground with 6 to 12 being the target line). This is achieved by starting the ball to the right and wrapping the club face around the ball through a full aggressive release. The fade is caused by starting the ball left of the target line and ideally releasing it very aggressively with the body so the club head stays open slightly longer (causing a clockwise spin on the ball) before it catches up with body. The latter is how Nicklaus and hogan hit the fade while releasing it fully.
[/quote]
Let's assume you are correct....... How in the world did this ball hook into the woods??????
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hcq0xhAe7UI

[Dr.John]

Forged, I agree with you on swing philosophy, but your explanation for ball flight is way off. No offense, but the ball is not in contact with the club face long enough to be influenced by "club head wrapping around the ball". All the ball knows is club face angle and path of the club face at impact.

[Hstead]

Forged, mine was a question about what you thought, not what I understand. I actually understand the ball flight laws and you have been taught the "old" way of thinking which is inaccurate. The ball flight laws are almost exactly the opposite of what you have been told. The face is not releasing etc or staying open for a fade to make the ball curve. The path is not what determines the start line. It is the opposite, the face determines the start line (for the most part) and the path is what creates the tilted axis spin. It is the differential in face to path that causes the curve.

This video explains it as well as anyone can IMHO. Foley makes it pretty easy to understand here. There are tons of videos on youtube if you search "ball flight laws". I don't know why we call them "new" now that they have been known by many for several years now.

http://youtu.be/tvo5XnlrzU8

There are also a zillion threads on this site explaining the ball flight laws. Ballard is old school and doesn't quite understand some of this stuff. If a path differential to the face is a "glancing" blow, then why does Bubba move the ball more than anyone on tour, huge draws and fades, and is the longest guy out there. It has nothing to do with "square face" or "heavy hit". It is all about swing speed, center contact, and he bends it with face to path differential. He isn't "wrapping the toe around it".

[pinhigh27]

Wait a sec, you think that path controls start direction and that the active closure or release of club face causes curvature? I suggest you try playing ping pong and see how that works out.

[pinhigh27]

Not to mention both of your situations say aggressive release.

[Hstead]

[quote name='pinhigh27' timestamp='1390616702' post='8527155']
Wait a sec, you think that path controls start direction and that the active closure or release of club face causes curvature? I suggest you try playing ping pong and see how that works out.
[/quote]

This is why I had to finally chime in, I couldn't take it anymore. Two of my buddies worked with Ballard way back when Curtis was winning US Opens. They were taught this same stuff. I still haven't been able to teach my 62 year old buddy that he isn't curving the ball with the face. He still thinks a ball that starts at the target and hooks is where you "Come OTT" Well no, you actually swung way to the right and the face was pointing at the target, hence it curved a mile left. He still doesn't get it just like Kosits and Miller and a bunch of other old school guys that haven't learned the physics behind it.

[PreppySlapCut]

Let's not allow this lack of understanding of ball flight to diminish an otherwise sound method of swinging the club...

[Hstead]

[quote name='PreppySlapCut' timestamp='1390620963' post='8527523']
Let's not allow this lack of understanding of ball flight to diminish an otherwise sound method of swinging the club...
[/quote]

I agree. A discussion of Ballards methods are good. Confusion on "heavier hit" and why, with confusing information on path and face angle etc, is not good for people reading that may not understand the ball flight laws. Understanding why the ball curves or starts in a certain direction is vital information for anyone that is trying to improve via any method.

Also, linking to "experts" that do not understand why the ball starts where it does and curves is not useful either.

Sharing Ballards ideas, drills, and philosophy is useful for those trying to implement his method.

[waldo1]

The terms "old school" and "we now know" are confusing to me.
In the Nicklaus Golf My way book Jack seems to understand quite well what influences ball flight. He states a push fade is caused by the club head traveling from in to out with the club face looking right of the swing path. That's from 1974. How is that not understanding ball flight. In the book Jack explains that his power fade was from an in to out swing with the face looking at the target and therefore he aimed left. That seems to be accurate and again its from 1974. I understand his video, Golf My Way, was ultra simplistic and not presented with great depth of detail, but his book, IMHO, seems to show he does understand how and why his ball curves. Tommy Armor made similar statements in the 1920's. He gave lessons based solely on swing correction made based on ball flight. So, exactly what is "old school" and what do "we now know" that is different from what Nicklaus or Armor wrote? I ask because I am confused and could use guidance.

[Hstead]

In the simplest to understand terms, "old school" taught that the direction the ball started on was a result of the swing path and the face caused the curvature. Which is exactly opposite of what is really happening. The face is the major determining factor of the start line not the path, and the face much less to do with the curve, path does. That is about as simple as it can be explained.

Jack used to say to aim the face where you want the ball to finish, adjust your body so the path swings where you want the ball to start.

Did you watch the Foley video? He sums it up pretty succinctly.

[Forged_Irons]

[quote name='JPGolf FL' timestamp='1390616334' post='8527119']
[quote name='Forged_Irons' timestamp='1390615452' post='8527037']
[quote name='Hstead' timestamp='1390599698' post='8525565']
Let me make sure what you are saying. So he is drawing the ball by "releasing the toe"? His face is square to his start line? And the toe closing causes it to draw? What does the path do?
[/quote]
You are correct in your understanding. The path is the the line the ball starts on. [quote name='PreppySlapCut' timestamp='1390614152' post='8526919']
[quote name='Forged_Irons' timestamp='1390599069' post='8525517']
[quote name='Hstead' timestamp='1390597995' post='8525393']
Kenny Perry has his face approximately 3 degrees right of the target at impact and his path is 6 degrees right of his target on average according to TM. It has nothing to do with paralysis by analysis and everything to do with physics and what is actually happening at impact. You do not hit a draw with the face "closing" or "toe wrapping around" the ball. That has all been debunked a long time ago. The face determines the start line for the most part, over 80% and the path determines curve. This is really not new. But evidently Steve still doesn't understand it. Having a face 3 degrees left of the 6 degree rightward path is not glancing. As pin mentioned earlier, a 1.50 smash is a 1.50 smash regardless of path and face.
[/quote]
If perry didn't release it it wouldn't draw. He's hitting the ball to the right to draw it. His intended target line is to the right of the actual target. So his club face is actually square to his intended target line it appears open in relation to a straight target line. If he didn't release the toe the ball would go straight right. The opposite would be true for a fader of the ball, the face would appear closed at impact but square to the intended target line left of the actual target.
Do you understand now?
[/quote]
What you're saying is inaccurate. Shot shape is determined by the differential in path and face angle at the moment of impact (assuming centered impact). Closure rate does not effect ball flight in a given shot.
[/quote]
Don't recall saying anything about closure rate. A draw is caused by spinning the ball slightly counterclockwise (if the clock were on the ground with 6 to 12 being the target line). This is achieved by starting the ball to the right and wrapping the club face around the ball through a full aggressive release. The fade is caused by starting the ball left of the target line and ideally releasing it very aggressively with the body so the club head stays open slightly longer (causing a clockwise spin on the ball) before it catches up with body. The latter is how Nicklaus and hogan hit the fade while releasing it fully.
[/quote]
Let's assume you are correct....... How in the world did this ball hook into the woods??????
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hcq0xhAe7UI
[/quote]
There are many manipulations you can put on the golf ball, as alluded to by the Sean Foley "rules of ball flight" proponent. I have no idea here what type of action or path Dustin Johnson is applying to the ball here. From the sound of it nobody knows, possibly not even Dustin himself. Could have been a dead pull, which is caused by the path. Only thing we do know from this video is that he did not release the club down his intended line. Ha

[Forged_Irons]

[quote name='JPGolf FL' timestamp='1390616334' post='8527119']
[quote name='Forged_Irons' timestamp='1390615452' post='8527037']
[quote name='Hstead' timestamp='1390599698' post='8525565']
Let me make sure what you are saying. So he is drawing the ball by "releasing the toe"? His face is square to his start line? And the toe closing causes it to draw? What does the path do?
[/quote]
You are correct in your understanding. The path is the the line the ball starts on. [quote name='PreppySlapCut' timestamp='1390614152' post='8526919']
[quote name='Forged_Irons' timestamp='1390599069' post='8525517']
[quote name='Hstead' timestamp='1390597995' post='8525393']
Kenny Perry has his face approximately 3 degrees right of the target at impact and his path is 6 degrees right of his target on average according to TM. It has nothing to do with paralysis by analysis and everything to do with physics and what is actually happening at impact. You do not hit a draw with the face "closing" or "toe wrapping around" the ball. That has all been debunked a long time ago. The face determines the start line for the most part, over 80% and the path determines curve. This is really not new. But evidently Steve still doesn't understand it. Having a face 3 degrees left of the 6 degree rightward path is not glancing. As pin mentioned earlier, a 1.50 smash is a 1.50 smash regardless of path and face.
[/quote]
If perry didn't release it it wouldn't draw. He's hitting the ball to the right to draw it. His intended target line is to the right of the actual target. So his club face is actually square to his intended target line it appears open in relation to a straight target line. If he didn't release the toe the ball would go straight right. The opposite would be true for a fader of the ball, the face would appear closed at impact but square to the intended target line left of the actual target.
Do you understand now?
[/quote]
What you're saying is inaccurate. Shot shape is determined by the differential in path and face angle at the moment of impact (assuming centered impact). Closure rate does not effect ball flight in a given shot.
[/quote]
Don't recall saying anything about closure rate. A draw is caused by spinning the ball slightly counterclockwise (if the clock were on the ground with 6 to 12 being the target line). This is achieved by starting the ball to the right and wrapping the club face around the ball through a full aggressive release. The fade is caused by starting the ball left of the target line and ideally releasing it very aggressively with the body so the club head stays open slightly longer (causing a clockwise spin on the ball) before it catches up with body. The latter is how Nicklaus and hogan hit the fade while releasing it fully.
[/quote]
Let's assume you are correct....... How in the world did this ball hook into the woods??????
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hcq0xhAe7UI
[/quote]
As a matter of fact, he didn't release it at all.

[dairic]

Gear effect

[JPGolf FL]

@forged..... Could you explain how the ball fades or draws?

[Hstead]

Forged, you must have missed the point in the Foley video. He is explaining the opposite, there are no "manipulations" that can be put on the golf ball. You cannot spin the ball by closing or opening the face. The path does not determine the direction the ball starts. The path determines the curve, not start line. (FOR THE MOST PART). Foley is dismissing the "face manipulations" idea that guys like Kostis and Wozeniak believe is happening.

Dustin hooked the nuts off of it because he swung way inside out to the right, hit it off of the toe, and had a closed face at impact compared to his path. If I had to guess, the numbers were probably like a +1 degree open face (to target line, not path) and +8 degree inside out path with a toe hit equals massive hook that started at the target and finished in the left bushes. The path couldn't have been more opposite of where the ball finished. The ball curved a mile left and the face couldn't have twisted more open due to the toe hit. The toe is not "wrapping around" the ball to create the hook. It is exactly the opposite. The toe is opening after impact because it was struck there, and gear effect along with path send the ball screaming left.

You are missing the concept. Watch the Foley video again or do a search on here for "ball flight laws" and there is a ton of great info on what is really happening when the ball and club collide. PutterKilledTheDream is a teacher that uses TrackMan and he understands the ball flight laws very well. Check out some of his posts.

[Hoganstriker]

Per the previous page here's Kenny P.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=xqxIvS3D9_E

No block. Toe is releasing through the impact zone. I also am a fan of Ballard. I think it's a mistake to try to invalidate his teachings by saying he doesn't understand the new laws. He's telling you how it's done not providing explanation of impact physics.
Free release without manipulation with connection is great IMO. I have nothing to say on heavy hit but I can sure tell the difference between square contact and a piercing shot vs a glancing blow. It's common sense. A more square hit will produce more ball speed in relation to swing speed. It's more efficient. His methods are great. I agree with the idea of working on fundamentals and over time you might improve slowly but your upside is much greater if you don't chase shortcuts. No ones saying its the easy quick way. It's just the right way to go about it long term. The fundamentals never change.

[Hoganstriker]

Is it possible that a lot of folks are not getting what is meant by not manipulating and, instead, releasing? Methinks so. The concept is pretty much the same in putting as driving as I see it.
I think forged is making perfect sense. I am not saying tm guys are wrong in terms of the physics of it. But tm doesn't teach one how to be connected and have a pure release.

[Forged_Irons]

[quote name='Hstead' timestamp='1390597995' post='8525393']
Kenny Perry has his face approximately 3 degrees right of the target at impact and his path is 6 degrees right of his target on average according to TM. It has nothing to do with paralysis by analysis and everything to do with physics and what is actually happening at impact. You do not hit a draw with the face "closing" or "toe wrapping around" the ball. That has all been debunked a long time ago. The face determines the start line for the most part, over 80% and the path determines curve. This is really not new. But evidently Steve still doesn't understand it. Having a face 3 degrees left of the 6 degree rightward path is not glancing. As pin mentioned earlier, a 1.50 smash is a 1.50 smash regardless of path and face.
[/quote]
As far as I know, the only thing track man can tell you is what the club head is doing. Not how it's is doing said action. Let me see if I can break this down: as far as a "heavy hit" is conserved, it's just a way of saying all the power that can be generated by an individual is directed correctly through the ball. No glancing face angles, deviant paths, and no independent hand, arm and wrist manipulations. Easy enough right. Apparently not. Too many people are out there arming the ball to understand what the heck I'm even referring to. That's unfortunate. Want I'm referring to is analogous throwing a ball "like a girl" (we all know what that's like, arming it in other words, vs getting our entire body producing the motion like the third baseman sizzling it into first. It's like a body blow from mike Tyson vs. mike Tyson slapping you with his arm and wrist. Both blows end up on your face but one is gonna irritate you and the other is gonna put you in the hospital. Can you start to see now why the face angle at impact is only one part of the equation? Can you see why what someone's club looks like at impact isn't the only thing that matters. That is a complete fallacy and should have been debunked long ago. I can make my club look like bubba Watson's for a split second at impact by mimicking that position but do you really think I'm gonna have his power and ball flight just because I copied his look at impact?! That's just stupid.

Related to draws and fades:
There are many ways to draw and fade it with independent motions of the hands, wrists, and arms. A la the foley bs that's going around. But for those of us who don't want to hit inconsistent glancing blows all the time to work the ball we have to use the big muscles to swing the club and RELEASE it. Not hold it off or roll it over. (The phrase wrapping around the ball simply refers to a proper release of the club. It's the door swinging on a hinge analogy and happens naturally without manipulation in a proper athletic swing.)
The only way to do it properly is as follows. Set up right or left to determine path and initial direction of the ball, this is your actual target line. Set club face square to location were you wish the ball to finish, this is your actual target. Swing naturally on the lime you have chosen (to the right or left of the target, as you please, release the club fully (assuming you know how to do this) and the ball will curve toward your target due to squaring it to your target in the set up.
Any method other than this involves various independent hand and arm motions which aren't repeatable. This is how Hogan and Nicholas hit standard draws and fades. Trouble and specialty shots ate different and should only be used after becoming proficient the conventional way.

[Hstead]

I am not trying to invalidate Ballard, but at the same time if you do not know what actually causes the ball to start a certain direction and curve in a direction, how do you really know "how to do it"? Ballard may very well understand the ball flight laws better than I do for all I know. The Wozeniak link however suggests he does not.

Kenny is not drawing the ball with the face. Kenny averages a +6 path to the right and a face that is +3 to the right according to Trackman.

I have no problem with people using the Ballard method, to each their own. If it works, then it works and that is all that matters. Do you get the ball in the hole faster or not, I could care less how a guy does it. If Ballard helps a guy do that then great.

But at the same time, it is not a good thing to give folks a false impression of what is going on in the swing to create ball flights etc. I once thought the same thing and once I learned what was really happening with face and path this game became much easier than trying to do the opposite with the old way of thinking. Understanding the ball flight laws can help tremendously, including folks that want to use Ballards fundamentals.

[Forged_Irons]

[quote name='JPGolf FL' timestamp='1390674654' post='8530297']
@forged..... Could you explain how the ball fades or draws?
[/quote]
Related to fades and draws:
There are many ways to draw and fade it with independent motions of the hands, wrists, and arms. A la the foley bs that's going around. But for those of us who don't want to hit inconsistent glancing blows all the time to work the ball we have to use the big muscles to swing the club and RELEASE it. Not hold it off or roll it over. (The phrase wrapping around the ball simply refers to a proper release of the club. It's the door swinging on a hinge analogy and happens naturally without manipulation in a proper athletic swing.)
The only way to do it properly is as follows. Set up right or left to determine path and initial direction of the ball, this is your actual target line. Set club face square to location were you wish the ball to finish, this is your actual target. Swing naturally on the lime you have chosen (to the right or left of the target, as you please, release the club fully (assuming you know how to do this) and the ball will curve toward your target due to squaring it to your target in the set up.
Any method other than this involves various independent hand and arm motions which aren't repeatable. This is how Hogan and Nicholas hit standard draws and fades. Trouble and specialty shots ate different and should only be used after becoming proficient the conventional way.

[Hstead]

Ok, I have tried my best to help but apparently you guys just do not get it. That is ok, Johnny Miller doesn't either. I think there is enough info here for other folks looking to learn that they can search and make up their own mind. Physics is physics. We will have to agree to disagree on what is happening. There is a reason most of the top Tour players are trying to get in Foleys' camp. There is also a reason most of the top instructors use radar now. Good luck

[Mitchell]

Nicholas?
Came into thread late, why is there such disagreement that face angle @ impact controls starting direction and path contributes to curvature?

[Hoganstriker]

Johnny miller was also one of the best in history.
I don't think anyone's arguing physics here except you, H. The real question is how to get it done repeatedly with the least number of adjustments required.
The physics has never changed.

[Forged_Irons]

[quote name='Hstead' timestamp='1390675492' post='8530365']
I am not trying to invalidate Ballard, but at the same time if you do not know what actually causes the ball to start a certain direction and curve in a direction, how do you really know "how to do it"? Ballard may very well understand the ball flight laws better than I do for all I know. The Wozeniak link however suggests he does not.

Kenny is not drawing the ball with the face. Kenny averages a +6 path to the right and a face that is +3 to the right according to Trackman.

I have no problem with people using the Ballard method, to each their own. If it works, then it works and that is all that matters. Do you get the ball in the hole faster or not, I could care less how a guy does it. If Ballard helps a guy do that then great.

But at the same time, it is not a good thing to give folks a false impression of what is going on in the swing to create ball flights etc. I once thought the same thing and once I learned what was really happening with face and path this game became much easier than trying to do the opposite with the old way of thinking. Understanding the ball flight laws can help tremendously, including folks that want to use Ballards fundamentals.
[/quote]
I think the ball flight laws that you are subscribing to are flawed but it's hard to know for sure. I'm not even sure what you are trying to say that Perry is doing. Are you trying to say that because his face is 3 degrees open and his path is 6degrees right of his final target that he's not releasing the club? Of course he is, he's not holding the face open to draw the thing! That's preposterous. His club face is releasing through the ball (closing like a door on a hinge). How else do you think the ball ends up going back to the left. It's not some sort of mega glancing blow that causes the draw spin on the ball. Further, checking the face angle just before or at impact doesn't tell the whole story. Perry's club face is not 3 degrees right after he's through the ball, if it were he'd never draw it. So the obvious thing that everyone's ignoring is that with a proper release the club is "square-ing" to the the ball as it's going through the ball. Maybe it is easier for all to understand that the club, just before impact, will be slightly open to the intended start line and then just after impact the face will be slightly closed in relation to the intended starting direction. Related to his 6 degree right path: Let's just clarify that his path is 6 degrees right of the ultimate target, not 6 degrees right of his intended starting line! His path is 0 degrees different from where he wants the ball to begin traveling. Of course Perry's swing path is going to the right of the target but it's not going to the right of the line he wishes to start the ball on, if he wants to draw it he has to start the ball out to the right!!! That is unless he wants to hit it left of his target all day. Which he may, just to make things more interesting, but I still doubt it.

[Forged_Irons]

[quote name='nochrome' timestamp='1390676380' post='8530457']
Nicholas?
Came into thread late, why is there such disagreement that face angle @ impact controls starting direction and path contributes to curvature?
[/quote]

Because it's the opposite. That's why.

[waldo1]

[quote name='Hstead' timestamp='1390667165' post='8529611']
In the simplest to understand terms, "old school" taught that the direction the ball started on was a result of the swing path and the face caused the curvature. Which is exactly opposite of what is really happening. The face is the major determining factor of the start line not the path, and the face much less to do with the curve, path does. That is about as simple as it can be explained.

Jack used to say to aim the face where you want the ball to finish, adjust your body so the path swings where you want the ball to start.

Did you watch the Foley video? He sums it up pretty succinctly.
[/quote]
Nicklaus wrote in 1974 what I posted. There is no disagreement with Foley. I understand his video gave a different explanation on how to curve the ball but that does not change what Nicklaus wrote in 1974 and Tommy Armor wrote over 90 years ago. My confusion is not on the laws of flight, but why we think its new. If Nicklaus thought otherwise why would he swing in to out with an open face to hit his power fade? I don't think we can use the Golf My Way video to discount Jacks book and say he didn't understand what controlled ball flight. His video seems predicated on realizing most amateurs come over the top. If they aim left with a slightly opened face you will hit a fade/slice toward the target. While Nicklaus doesn't say that, in his video he does imply it when he states that he doesn't mind if "you come a little over the top". I've seen the Foley video and I'm not in disagreement with what he says. A side note: Back in the late 70's Dede Owens had shown me the same way of hitting a draw or fade that is now considered what "we now know". Dede was an LPGA pro and Golf Digest regular and listed in their top 10 instructors until she passed away from cancer. So newer teachers can state that they have a new and better way that old dogs didn't understand, but its simply not true. Were there some that taught wrong methods on flight? Yes and there still are. Are there way too many people improperly trying to hit a fade because of the Golf My Way video? Yes there are. There are also many, like Greg Norman, who say they learned how to work the ball from Jacks book.

[Forged_Irons]

[quote name='Hoganstriker' timestamp='1390676463' post='8530465']
Johnny miller was also one of the best in history.
I don't think anyone's arguing physics here except you, H. The real question is how to get it done repeatedly with the least number of adjustments required.
The physics has never changed.
[/quote]
Amen! And the best way to repeat it is with the least amount if hand and arm manipulation possible.

[JPGolf FL]

[quote name='Forged_Irons' timestamp='1390675567' post='8530375']
[quote name='JPGolf FL' timestamp='1390674654' post='8530297']
@forged..... Could you explain how the ball fades or draws?
[/quote]
Related to fades and draws:
There are many ways to draw and fade it with independent motions of the hands, wrists, and arms. A la the foley bs that's going around. But for those of us who don't want to hit inconsistent glancing blows all the time to work the ball we have to use the big muscles to swing the club and RELEASE it. Not hold it off or roll it over. (The phrase wrapping around the ball simply refers to a proper release of the club. It's the door swinging on a hinge analogy and happens naturally without manipulation in a proper athletic swing.)
The only way to do it properly is as follows. Set up right or left to determine path and initial direction of the ball, this is your actual target line. Set club face square to location were you wish the ball to finish, this is your actual target. Swing naturally on the lime you have chosen (to the right or left of the target, as you please, release the club fully (assuming you know how to do this) and the ball will curve toward your target due to squaring it to your target in the set up.
Any method other than this involves various independent hand and arm motions which aren't repeatable. This is how Hogan and Nicholas hit standard draws and fades. Trouble and specialty shots ate different and should only be used after becoming proficient the conventional way.
[/quote]
So to fade a ball to a flag you want your path left of the flag and the face pointing directly at the flag at impact......right?

[JPGolf FL]

[quote name='Forged_Irons' timestamp='1390677161' post='8530547']
[quote name='nochrome' timestamp='1390676380' post='8530457']
Nicholas?
Came into thread late, why is there such disagreement that face angle @ impact controls starting direction and path contributes to curvature?
[/quote]

Because it's the opposite. That's why.
[/quote]
Why is it that everyone that has this wrong is so sure they have it right???? Seriously forged, do a little research outside of Ballard and come back. Nothing wrong with not knowing. There is plenty wrong with not knowing and then digging in your heels.