The ballad of Jimmy Ballard...

[bph7]

Maybe ballard/forged still use an "old" set of anatomy laws in addition to ball flight laws? Forged, did Jack at one point give his opinion on anatomy? Because, as we all know, he was the GOAT so if he said it, he's right.

[Forged_Irons]

[quote name='JPGolf FL' timestamp='1390777166' post='8538599']
[quote name='Forged_Irons' timestamp='1390773986' post='8538225']
[quote name='JPGolf FL' timestamp='1390772885' post='8538065']
I have never studied much Ballard so i decided to check out a video or two. It seems to me that his whole "you can't turn" and "the head can't stay still" mumbo-jumbo sales pitch is due to a complete lack of understanding of how thoracic TURN and thoracic TILT works. He is standing there in front of a class making these ridiculous motions trying to prove his points. I truly think he has zero thoracic spine mobility so he thinks the only way to move the shoulders is to move the entire spine. If I had been in this class I could have showed him very quickly how to do everything he is saying is impossible.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=fPlXggMYXHY
[/quote]
You obviously don't know what Jimmy teaches. He teaches you to set up and swing just as you would in other sports. Tennis, hockey, baseball, etc. in all if these endeavors you move your spine and head to maintain your balance. Just the same as Hogan advocates when he uses the analogy of the short stop throwing to the second baseman. Can't be conveyed over internet postings or you tube clips. If you think staying over the ball and tilting and turning is the answer then stick with it.
Gary woodland muscles the ball with a stiff left arm block move. Everything Jimmy teaches is based on RELEASING the club head. Most of the Track Man ball rules seem to be predicated on swings that attempt to maintain a face angle all the way through that ball and not on swings with a good release.
[/quote]

You yourself said "no turn" and "you can't keep the head still". How is that not what he teaches? I simply showed that you can turn without moving the whole spine and you can keep the head still. Other than that I do not know what Ballard teaches. But in his words those are two of the things his ideas are built around. So his ideas are built around a false premise due to his own lack of thoracic spine mobility and flat out lack of understanding of the thoracic spine. He says you can't turn the shoulders because they are two joints..... Wtf??? The entire shoulder girdle rotates (turns) via the thoracic spine..... It's not that hard to grasp.
[/quote]
Jimmy doesn't deny that you CAN turn your body but he doesn't advocate it for playing your best golf.

[Forged_Irons]

[quote name='bph7' timestamp='1390777362' post='8538631']
Maybe ballard/forged still use an "old" set of anatomy laws in addition to ball flight laws? Forged, did Jack at one point give his opinion on anatomy? Because, as we all know, he was the GOAT so if he said it, he's right.
[/quote]
Don't recall Nicklaus expounding on "anatomy laws".

[Forged_Irons]

[quote name='bph7' timestamp='1390777362' post='8538631']
Maybe ballard/forged still use an "old" set of anatomy laws in addition to ball flight laws? Forged, did Jack at one point give his opinion on anatomy? Because, as we all know, he was the GOAT so if he said it, he's right.
[/quote]
Love the old anatomy!!! Ha

[Hstead]

It is now up to 86 to 5 and Jack said in his own words he changed his thinking which I noticed you ignored. Are you going to continue to tell us we are all wrong? You and 4 other guys know everything and the rest of us are incorrect? Why have you not posted on that thread and continue over here?

[PreppySlapCut]

[quote name='JPGolf FL' timestamp='1390777166' post='8538599']
You yourself said "no turn" and "you can't keep the head still". How is that not what he teaches? I simply showed that you can turn without moving the whole spine and you can keep the head still. Other than that I do not know what Ballard teaches. But in his words those are two of the things his ideas are built around. So his ideas are built around a false premise due to his own lack of thoracic spine mobility and flat out lack of understanding of the thoracic spine. He says you can't turn the shoulders because they are two joints..... Wtf??? The entire shoulder girdle rotates (turns) via the thoracic spine..... It's not that hard to grasp.
[/quote]
I think limiting the mobility of the thoracic spine is one of the benefits of JBs method. There is a lot of pressure taken off the back.

[Forged_Irons]

[quote name='Hstead' timestamp='1390781623' post='8539151']
It is now up to 86 to 5 and Jack said in his own words he changed his thinking which I noticed you ignored. Are you going to continue to tell us we are all wrong? You and 4 other guys know everything and the rest of us are incorrect? Why have you not posted on that thread and continue over here?
[/quote]
I'll be happy to post over there. I looked for it in new forums, guess I missed it.

[Forged_Irons]

[quote name='PreppySlapCut' timestamp='1390781815' post='8539181']
[quote name='JPGolf FL' timestamp='1390777166' post='8538599']
You yourself said "no turn" and "you can't keep the head still". How is that not what he teaches? I simply showed that you can turn without moving the whole spine and you can keep the head still. Other than that I do not know what Ballard teaches. But in his words those are two of the things his ideas are built around. So his ideas are built around a false premise due to his own lack of thoracic spine mobility and flat out lack of understanding of the thoracic spine. He says you can't turn the shoulders because they are two joints..... Wtf??? The entire shoulder girdle rotates (turns) via the thoracic spine..... It's not that hard to grasp.
[/quote]
I think limiting the mobility of the thoracic spine is one of the benefits of JBs method. There is a lot of pressure taken off the back.
[/quote]
He advocates standing tall in a ready athletic position. He advocates against bending (leaning over toward ball) and turning in a barrel over the ball as the bending destroys connection and one's back in the process. He advocates against turning because an athletic golf swing is not a circular path, it's elliptical and that's why you hit it straighter with his method. The club head travels along the target line much longer through the ball. Trevino was known it have the longest "flat spot" in golf due to his loading to the right and unloading to the left. (It's not a lateral slide either for those chomping at the bit). Trevino swings very athletically btw.

[JPGolf FL]

[quote name='PreppySlapCut' timestamp='1390781815' post='8539181']
[quote name='JPGolf FL' timestamp='1390777166' post='8538599']
You yourself said "no turn" and "you can't keep the head still". How is that not what he teaches? I simply showed that you can turn without moving the whole spine and you can keep the head still. Other than that I do not know what Ballard teaches. But in his words those are two of the things his ideas are built around. So his ideas are built around a false premise due to his own lack of thoracic spine mobility and flat out lack of understanding of the thoracic spine. He says you can't turn the shoulders because they are two joints..... Wtf??? The entire shoulder girdle rotates (turns) via the thoracic spine..... It's not that hard to grasp.
[/quote]
I think limiting the mobility of the thoracic spine is one of the benefits of JBs method. There is a lot of pressure taken off the back.
[/quote]
Ballard presents it as the only way to swing. BS. Turning the t-spine correctly does not pressure the back. Whether his idea is easier on the back..... Ehhh, I would doubt it. The problem is that most people don't understand how to turn and tilt the t-spine correctly. Hence the reason JB thinks one must either move the head or else reverse pivot. He clearly does not understand tilt. That is exactly what people who don't understand tilt do/say. I'm not saying one can't play good golf with JBs method. It just annoys me to death when JB/forged/other minions act as if they have some superior method and all the other 99% of schlubs out there don't know jack. It is ridic and smells of an "as seen on TV" product. I fully admit there is no "best way" to swing. People are built differently, they will swing differently. Some people lack t-spine mobility, some don't. But when JB says "you can't turn without a reverse pivot" or "you can't kelp your head still" and that is so obviously, absolutely false......it smells very fishy. Especially when he says his way is the only way. I call BS.

[dairic]

Delusion defn.
A delusion is a belief held with strong conviction despite superior evidence to the contrary. As a pathology, it is distinct from a belief based on false or incomplete information, confabulation, dogma, illusion, or other effects of perception.

[PreppySlapCut]

You just need to get past the marketing schpiel. It's really no different than the S&T crew. Once you look past the BS and into the meat and potatoes of their instruction, there's good info.

[bph7]

[quote name='PreppySlapCut' timestamp='1390838302' post='8542855']
You just need to get past the marketing schpiel. It's really no different than the S&T crew. Once you look past the BS and into the meat and potatoes of their instruction, there's good info.
[/quote]

I completely agree that Ballard teaches a good motion that would help many. However, as with S&T, and lots of other methods, it can be REALLY tough to get past the marketing sometimes, especially when the teachers act like it's the only way to swing and show the swings of all the greats as examples of "their" method. For many, this puts a serious dent in the credibility of these teachers from the get go, and I don't think it's unreasonable for potential customers to feel that way. After all, there are obviously tons of ways to effectively swing a club. So when both Ballard and S&T use Jack as a model, it's tough for many to understand how that's possible. In the end, most potential customers of the instructor have to know inherently that the instructor's method can't be the only way, and then the customers end up asking themselves, "well, if this teacher is wrong about it being the only way to play, what else are they wrong about..." etc.

[Hstead]

That is exactly how I feel. Do I like everything about S&T? No. Are there some great nuggets in some of their stuff. Absolutely. Same with Ballard. But when teachers start saying "This is what Hogan did" and it is not even close, and then demanding that certain things cannot be done in the swing when clearly they can, you have to question the entire "method".

Steve Wokeniak stated that good players lead the divot with the toe of the club. Seriously? "The toe cuts but the heel digs" he said. That is just ignorant. How can you take a guy like that serious? Same with guys that have no understanding of why the ball started left and hooked. How much could they really know?

[JPGolf FL]

[quote name='PreppySlapCut' timestamp='1390838302' post='8542855']
You just need to get past the marketing schpiel. It's really no different than the S&T crew. Once you look past the BS and into the meat and potatoes of their instruction, there's good info.
[/quote]
If the teacher feels it necessary to heavily market with dishonest prerequisites that lead into their instruction, what does that say about their instruction? Ballard tries to come off as having knowledge of some kind of profound information that makes all other instruction incorrect. THAT is his marketing strategy. No thanks. As far as good parts of his instruction, all I have heard mentioned is using the right side to get the ball. He did not make that up. That is fully described in TGM. I employ a strong right side hit in my swing, and I did not get it from him. So to say that "his" right side swing is somehow special is just not true. I really have not studied much on Ballard, what is special about his instruction? Not including the incorrect premise he uses about not turning and the head not moving etc...

[PreppySlapCut]

It's entirely about how the pieces match together. I think it has advantages in terms of being easier on the body, and creating a much more neutral path (which reduces the potential for a big two way miss).

Do I think it's the best way to swing a golf club, assuming someone has no physical limitations? No. However the simplicity and ease with which people can be moved into it make it a very appealing option for a wide array of players.

[dodger]

As far as numbers, considering how long he has taught, Ballard has instructed as many tour players as any other single instructor. In the 70's and 80's he was the guy. Have any of those players ever criticized Ballard's teaching ? Not criticism from someone looking at the player's record, but the player him or herself criticizing him? Ballard's teaching really helps players who tend to hook and come too much from the inside. That is my issue and the thought of the toe wrapping around the ball helps. It may not be what the club actually does at impact, but the thought works for me as it keeps me from getting too shallow. There will be thoughts that promote a certain body movement that may not be compatible with trackman findings. An instructor may need someone to feel like he is releasing from the top. In truth, that may never come close to happening on trackman. That does not mean the feel is wrong for the player who is trying to change their swing. Ballard is an instruction legend who I would see in a heartbeat if I got the chance.

[JPGolf FL]

[quote name='PreppySlapCut' timestamp='1390850307' post='8544333']
It's entirely about how the pieces match together. I think it has advantages in terms of being easier on the body, and creating a much more neutral path (which reduces the potential for a big two way miss).

Do I think it's the best way to swing a golf club, assuming someone has no physical limitations? No. However the simplicity and ease with which people can be moved into it make it a very appealing option for a wide array of players.
[/quote]
Pieces matching together is not a Ballard thing either. Any instructor with half a brain knows the pieces have to fit together. The problem I have is that if he thinks there is no such thing as shoulder turn in the golf swing, and thinks there's no way to keep the head still without reverse pivoting, where does that leave him fitting pieces together? And from what I understand he believes his way is the only correct way to swing. So it's a matter of fitting HIS pieces together. A really good instructor knows ALL of the pieces and understands what fits and what does not.

As for the more neutral path, I assume this is done through a more upright plane? The only way I can picture accomplishing this would make for more face rotation which undermines the benefits of the more neutral path.

To be clear I'm not arguing with you, just trying to grasp Ballard.

[mshills]

[quote name='Hstead' timestamp='1390839381' post='8542967']
That is exactly how I feel. Do I like everything about S&T? No. Are there some great nuggets in some of their stuff. Absolutely. Same with Ballard. But when teachers start saying "This is what Hogan did" and it is not even close, and then demanding that certain things cannot be done in the swing when clearly they can, you have to question the entire "method".

Steve Wokeniak stated that [size=5][b]good players lead the divot with the toe of the club. [/b][/size] Seriously? [size=5][b]"The toe cuts but the heel digs"[/b][/size] he said. That is just ignorant. How can you take a guy like that serious? Same with guys that have no understanding of why the ball started left and hooked. How much could they really know?
[/quote]

LOL, what? Shirley, you cannot be serious.

My way or the highway golf instruction is what turns me off. Ben Hogan swung like Ben Hogan because he was Ben Hogan. Don't tell me that "Hogan did this so you should do it." Rubbish.

There are certain principles that apply across the board, sure, but these method teachers are selling snake oil disguised as swing crack.

[bph7]

[quote name='dodger' timestamp='1390851215' post='8544465']
As far as numbers, considering how long he has taught, Ballard has instructed as many tour players as any other single instructor. In the 70's and 80's he was the guy. Have any of those players ever criticized Ballard's teaching ? Not criticism from someone looking at the player's record, but the player him or herself criticizing him? Ballard's teaching really helps players who tend to hook and come too much from the inside. That is my issue and the thought of the toe wrapping around the ball helps. It may not be what the club actually does at impact, but the thought works for me as it keeps me from getting too shallow. There will be thoughts that promote a certain body movement that may not be compatible with trackman findings. An instructor may need someone to feel like he is releasing from the top. In truth, that may never come close to happening on trackman. That does not mean the feel is wrong for the player who is trying to change their swing. Ballard is an instruction legend who I would see in a heartbeat if I got the chance.
[/quote]

No one is saying he's not a great instructor. We are just saying that some of the things he says to market his philosophy are false. There is a large difference between these two things. A lot of people will say, "I don't care, he believes in his instruction, and he can say what he wants to promote it" and that's fine, but I myself don't feel that way and I am not alone. It doesn't matter how many pictures of hogan and nicklaus he uses, neither player used anything close to his swing philosophy and it's simply misleading to suggest otherwise. This turns SOME people off. Not everyone, as some apparently don't care about being misled as long as the bottom line is right. It's a fundamental question every consumer must answer before buying into any swing instructor/method: How much "snake oil" am I willing to put up with for my instructor? Different people have different levels they can handle before being entirely turned off. No one is right or wrong, just different ways of looking at it I guess.

But again, I am not sure what the point is of defending Ballard's methods/results in his instruction. No one is really criticizing it, instead Ballard is being criticized for overstating the "universal-ness" of his teachings to everyone.

[PreppySlapCut]

When did I insinuate pieces matching should be credited to Ballard? I'm saying the reason his method works is because the pieces he implements fit together. Go pick up a copy of his book or spend some time around one of his disciples (or him) and you'll get a grasp of what he espouses.

He ABSOLUTELY teaches nothing but HIS method. Make no mistake about that.

[Hstead]

[quote name='mshills' timestamp='1390851755' post='8544521']
[quote name='Hstead' timestamp='1390839381' post='8542967']
That is exactly how I feel. Do I like everything about S&T? No. Are there some great nuggets in some of their stuff. Absolutely. Same with Ballard. But when teachers start saying "This is what Hogan did" and it is not even close, and then demanding that certain things cannot be done in the swing when clearly they can, you have to question the entire "method".

Steve Wokeniak stated that [size=5][b]good players lead the divot with the toe of the club. [/b][/size] Seriously? [size=5][b]"The toe cuts but the heel digs"[/b][/size] he said. That is just ignorant. How can you take a guy like that serious? Same with guys that have no understanding of why the ball started left and hooked. How much could they really know?
[/quote]

LOL, what? Shirley, you cannot be serious.

My way or the highway golf instruction is what turns me off. Ben Hogan swung like Ben Hogan because he was Ben Hogan. Don't tell me that "Hogan did this so you should do it." Rubbish.

There are certain principles that apply across the board, sure, but these method teachers are selling snake oil disguised as swing crack.
[/quote]

Yes. This "expert" linked to by Forged_irons said it in his link. Go back and check it out.

I have read this thread since the beginning mostly because years ago my buddies were infatuated with Ballard and they were trying to teach his stuff. They gave me the videos, gave me their experiences, etc. These are my two best golfing buddies that I have literally played hundreds of rounds of golf with over the years. I am not talking about a couple of guys giving me a pointer or two on the range. I am talking years of work on it. It made me terrible to try to "aggressively release" the toe, stay overly connected, sway off the ball, all of the things Ballard promotes, meanwhile my two buddies did neither once we started using high speed video.

I have never posted in this thread as I know guys have some success with the Ballard method and that is great, but I couldn't take some of this nonsense any longer about ball flight and this "expert" Wozeniak. It is just so blatantly wrong and inaccurate I couldn't take it. Total snake oil BS. But some people buy it hook line and sinker ie. See Forged.



Here is a piece of the article: For some reason we are supposed to listen to what Jack "feels" but not Rose?

[b]"[color=#000000][size=3]Now here is a tip in the same article that completely contradicts the previous drill and what Justin does not know is that if you try to do this there is no possible way to keep the shirt under the armpit and finish like he wants in the other picture. Here he wants you to feel like your catching the ground with the heel of the club. Wrong, every great player works the toe of the club around the ball. If you drag the heel of the club this digs ugly big divots that go left of the line of flight. Great swings work the toe of the club, this cuts nice clean divots that go down the line of flight. The heel digs, the toe cuts. So think drills through that you may try, do they make sense, don’t just automatically try something that a coach or even a tour player tells you to, look at what they do….not what they say they do, it’s often different."[/size][/color][/b]

[JPGolf FL]

[quote name='PreppySlapCut' timestamp='1390852105' post='8544573']
When did I insinuate pieces matching should be credited to Ballard? I'm saying the reason his method works is because the pieces he implements fit together. Go pick up a copy of his book or spend some time around one of his disciples (or him) and you'll get a grasp of what he espouses.

He ABSOLUTELY teaches nothing but HIS method. Make no mistake about that.
[/quote]
I asked what else he teaches that is different than others and you led with "it's all about the pieces fitting together"........ I took that the wrong way I guess. You meant HIS pieces fitting together. And FWIW I have no interest in being near Ballard. He is dripping with "used car salesman" IMO. I just still have not heard what makes him so special to some, other than the untruths he spouts in the video I posted. That seems to be the common denominator. Maybe that appeals to people who have t-spine mobility issues so they think he is right??

[PreppySlapCut]

I don't look at it in terms of right and wrong. I look at patterns and what works. I don't have to interact with Ballard personally or professionally. As a result, I don't much care about his marketing BS (I do NOT agree with it). I can separate good info from it's source. What I care about is that his pattern is a perfectly viable way to swing a golf club. It would be irresponsible of me, as a professional, to overlook that and not look into why.

[Forged_Irons]

[quote name='Hstead' timestamp='1390852587' post='8544639']
[quote name='mshills' timestamp='1390851755' post='8544521']
[quote name='Hstead' timestamp='1390839381' post='8542967']
That is exactly how I feel. Do I like everything about S&T? No. Are there some great nuggets in some of their stuff. Absolutely. Same with Ballard. But when teachers start saying "This is what Hogan did" and it is not even close, and then demanding that certain things cannot be done in the swing when clearly they can, you have to question the entire "method".

Steve Wokeniak stated that [size=5][b]good players lead the divot with the toe of the club. [/b][/size] Seriously? [size=5][b]"The toe cuts but the heel digs"[/b][/size] he said. That is just ignorant. How can you take a guy like that serious? Same with guys that have no understanding of why the ball started left and hooked. How much could they really know?
[/quote]

LOL, what? Shirley, you cannot be serious.

My way or the highway golf instruction is what turns me off. Ben Hogan swung like Ben Hogan because he was Ben Hogan. Don't tell me that "Hogan did this so you should do it." Rubbish.

There are certain principles that apply across the board, sure, but these method teachers are selling snake oil disguised as swing crack.
[/quote]

Yes. This "expert" linked to by Forged_irons said it in his link. Go back and check it out.

I have read this thread since the beginning mostly because years ago my buddies were infatuated with Ballard and they were trying to teach his stuff. They gave me the videos, gave me their experiences, etc. These are my two best golfing buddies that I have literally played hundreds of rounds of golf with over the years. I am not talking about a couple of guys giving me a pointer or two on the range. I am talking years of work on it. It made me terrible to try to "aggressively release" the toe, stay overly connected, sway off the ball, all of the things Ballard promotes, meanwhile my two buddies did neither once we started using high speed video.

I have never posted in this thread as I know guys have some success with the Ballard method and that is great, but I couldn't take some of this nonsense any longer about ball flight and this "expert" Wozeniak. It is just so blatantly wrong and inaccurate I couldn't take it. Total snake oil BS. But some people buy it hook line and sinker ie. See Forged.



Here is a piece of the article: For some reason we are supposed to listen to what Jack "feels" but not Rose?

[b]"[color=#000000][size=3]Now here is a tip in the same article that completely contradicts the previous drill and what Justin does not know is that if you try to do this there is no possible way to keep the shirt under the armpit and finish like he wants in the other picture. Here he wants you to feel like your catching the ground with the heel of the club. Wrong, every great player works the toe of the club around the ball. If you drag the heel of the club this digs ugly big divots that go left of the line of flight. Great swings work the toe of the club, this cuts nice clean divots that go down the line of flight. The heel digs, the toe cuts. So think drills through that you may try, do they make sense, don’t just automatically try something that a coach or even a tour player tells you to, look at what they do….not what they say they do, it’s often different."[/size][/color][/b]
[/quote]
Saying that Ballard teaches a sway is the most inaccurate (and flat out wrong) piece of information I've heard thus far.

[Hstead]

Call it what you want. Ballard can name it what ever he wants. He teaches that the head should move to the golfers right. You can define sway a bunch of ways. He does not teach what is considered a centered pivot. Period. Yet, the overwhelming majority of tour players now and back in the day, including Jack, did not move their heads to their right like Ballard say they do.

Trust me, I have watched all of the snake oil BS about how "Jack Grout would have pulled all of Jack Nicklaus' hair out if he held onto it" yada yada yada.

It is funny, we are supposed to absolutely believe Jack Nicklaus knew exactly what club ball collision dynamics that were happening at 115+ mph but yet when Jack says one of the tenants to his swing was to keep his head still, which can easily be seen in any video of Jack, we are supposed to ignore that because Ballard says it can't happen?

[Forged_Irons]

[quote name='JPGolf FL' timestamp='1390853124' post='8544717']
[quote name='PreppySlapCut' timestamp='1390852105' post='8544573']
When did I insinuate pieces matching should be credited to Ballard? I'm saying the reason his method works is because the pieces he implements fit together. Go pick up a copy of his book or spend some time around one of his disciples (or him) and you'll get a grasp of what he espouses.

He ABSOLUTELY teaches nothing but HIS method. Make no mistake about that.
[/quote]
I asked what else he teaches that is different than others and you led with "it's all about the pieces fitting together"........ I took that the wrong way I guess. You meant HIS pieces fitting together. And FWIW I have no interest in being near Ballard. He is dripping with "used car salesman" IMO. I just still have not heard what makes him so special to some, other than the untruths he spouts in the video I posted. That seems to be the common denominator. Maybe that appeals to people who have t-spine mobility issues so they think he is right??
[/quote]
Look, if you read a little about Ballard you'll find that he learned everything about the swing from Sam Byrd, who (Byrd) applied everything he learned about hitting a ball with a stick, in baseball, (from Babe Ruth himself) to golf and found only one difference. ONE. That the plane in baseball is flat and in golf it's tilted. (The plane, not the player). Byrd was the only baseball player to win on the golf tour, and actually came in second to Byron Nelson in a major. In case you haven't ever read these facts, Byrd is also responsible for teaching Hogan to transform his action to a more connected athletic swing in part by using the handkerchief under his left arm. This was the beginning of Hogan's meteoric rise. Ok now for the part you're really missing: Ballard (already a proficient amateur at the time) began working for Sam Byrd at his driving range and learned everything he espouses about swinging first hand from Byrd. Let me break it down for you. Babe Ruth > Sam Byrd > Hogan and Ballard. It's not difficult once you know these facts to see why Ballard has the utmost confidence that the fundamentals he teaches are THE fundamentals. THE fundamentals that apply in every athletic endeavor. So call that snake oil if you will but I think those with more discerning minds and superior judgement will ultimately see right through this. Personally I don't trust any professional that teaches that golf is different than other athletics and/or there are 1000s of good ways to swing (ie no rules) and needs to be addressed and taught as such. That to me is the epitome of snake oil.
Look, actually, there are tens of millions of ways to hit a ball, I'll give you that, but there's only one BEST way. The ATHLETIC way. That's what Jimmy teaches.

[Forged_Irons]

[quote name='Hstead' timestamp='1390878178' post='8547987']
Call it what you want. Ballard can name it what ever he wants. He teaches that the head should move to the golfers right. You can define sway a bunch of ways. He does not teach what is considered a centered pivot. Period. Yet, the overwhelming majority of tour players now and back in the day, including Jack, did not move their heads to their right like Ballard say they do.

Trust me, I have watched all of the snake oil BS about how "Jack Grout would have pulled all of Jack Nicklaus' hair out if he held onto it" yada yada yada.

It is funny, we are supposed to absolutely believe Jack Nicklaus knew exactly what club ball collision dynamics that were happening at 115+ mph but yet when Jack says one of the tenants to his swing was to keep his head still, which can easily be seen in any video of Jack, we are supposed to ignore that because Ballard says it can't happen?
[/quote]
Get video (not just any video) of Jack when he was playing his best (and make sure it's a dead straight view at his chest) and you'll see that he preset his head back before even swinging, hogan did it too. In effect this got their weight pre set into the right leg. They did not have to move back nearly as much this way and yet they still moved their heads a tad more right getting to the top. Swinging around a centered pivot point (the head) works but it's not the best way to do it. Folks started thinking (erroneously) this way after the advent of iron Byron which is a machine on one fixed axis. Humans are not built that way. Therefore, same principles do not apply.

[Hstead]

Again, he have no clue what you are talking about. Nicklaus said a million and one times that one of his most important fundamentals was that he kept his head dead still. You can try to throw out some BS about, presetting his head, which is totally Ballard speak because his head isn't freaking moving AT ALL, so he needs an excuse. Nicklaus rotated his chin slightly due to his eye dominance but it didn't move to his right. You are dead wrong again. Just because Ballard has no idea how the spine works. He has no idea what left tile, side bending is, which every good player did and still does. You do not "turn around center pivot point". Again, there has been numerous threads around here with the correct anatomical movement of the spine that is not up for debate, it is actually what is happening. If you would just realize you do not know nearly as much as you think you do in the end you might learn something. But with your know-it-all attitude you are going to learn nothing and instead make yourself look badly like you have already done.

There are tons of videos. How about you produce one where his head moves. Good luck I can post ones like this all day.
http://youtu.be/t7NOcf23IR8

[Hstead]

There are a ton of these. Please show me one where he moves his head.

http://youtu.be/WBIagUWkbRY

[Hstead]

How about 1963?

http://youtu.be/ar0qLYWdD28