The ballad of Jimmy Ballard...

[Forged_Irons]

[quote name='tembolo1284' timestamp='1389115492' post='8415937']
What forged excellent post!

Does he teach you to move off the ball? Not a sway as you said...but does your head move a lot to the right relatively speaking like curtis strange?

Why does he say coil all the time and not turn?

I know he says you can't turn when you have two posts (your legs) but that upper body sure looks like it's turning to me. Is he against a shoulder turn?
[/quote]

1-Your head moves back in tandem with your spine (because it's a 17 lb weight attached to your spine) in proportion to the width of your stance. On a driver it moves more than with a wedge.

2-He discourages the term turn because you don't turn in any other athletic endeavor to DRIVE or PROPEL an object forward. The motion is taking the triangle established at address and moving in in one piece into the INSIDE of the right leg. Legend has it that hogan described the result of correctly executing the back swing was a pinching of your right between your groin and your pelvis.

3- In a turn the shoulders rotate level around a still head. Not good. In a coil the weight moves back, as I said, into the right instep while the left shoulder moves back (pretty much level) to the away from target and the right shoulder moves upward. (Picture Tom Brady getting ready to launch a bomb, right shoulder goes up and left shoulder moves back over right instep then he can just uncork toward the target. He would never spin (rotate, turn) around himself.

Hope that helps.

[Forged_Irons]

[quote name='tembolo1284' timestamp='1389119086' post='8416431']
What's his advice for hitting the ball high?
[/quote]

Tee it higher. But still hit down with the whole body.

Watch Azinger on the latest golf academy!

[Forged_Irons]

1-Your head moves back in tandem with your spine (because it's a 17 lb weight attached to your spine) in proportion to the width of your stance. On a driver it moves more than with a wedge.

2-He discourages the term turn because you don't turn in any other athletic endeavor to DRIVE or PROPEL an object forward. The motion is taking the triangle established at address and moving in in one piece into the INSIDE of the right leg. Legend has it that hogan described the result of correctly executing the back swing was a pinching of your right between your groin and your pelvis.

3- In a turn the shoulders rotate level around a still head. Not good. In a coil the weight moves back, as I said, into the right instep while the left shoulder moves back (pretty much level) to the away from target and the right shoulder moves upward. (Picture Tom Brady getting ready to launch a bomb, right shoulder goes up and left shoulder moves back over right instep then he can just uncork toward the target. He would never spin (rotate, turn) around himself.

Hope that helps.

[Forged_Irons]

[quote name='Forged_Irons' timestamp='1389300945' post='8429991']
[quote name='tembolo1284' timestamp='1389115492' post='8415937']
What forged excellent post!

Does he teach you to move off the ball? Not a sway as you said...but does your head move a lot to the right relatively speaking like curtis strange?

Why does he say coil all the time and not turn?

I know he says you can't turn when you have two posts (your legs) but that upper body sure looks like it's turning to me. Is he against a shoulder turn?
[/quote]

1-Your head moves back in tandem with your spine (because it's a 17 lb weight attached to your spine) in proportion to the width of your stance. On a driver it moves more than with a wedge.

2-He discourages the term turn because you don't turn in any other athletic endeavor to DRIVE or PROPEL an object forward. The motion is taking the triangle established at address and moving in in one piece into the INSIDE of the right leg. Legend has it that hogan described the result of correctly executing the back swing was a pinching of your right nut between your groin and your pelvis.

3- In a turn the shoulders rotate level around a still head. Not good. In a coil the weight moves back, as I said, into the right instep while the left shoulder moves back (pretty much level) to the away from target and the right shoulder moves upward. (Picture Tom Brady getting ready to launch a bomb, right shoulder goes up and left shoulder moves back over right instep then he can just uncork toward the target. He would never spin (rotate, turn) around himself.

Hope that helps.
[/quote]

[Forged_Irons]

[quote name='Forged_Irons' timestamp='1389300945' post='8429991']
[quote name='tembolo1284' timestamp='1389115492' post='8415937']
What forged excellent post!

Does he teach you to move off the ball? Not a sway as you said...but does your head move a lot to the right relatively speaking like curtis strange?

Why does he say coil all the time and not turn?

I know he says you can't turn when you have two posts (your legs) but that upper body sure looks like it's turning to me. Is he against a shoulder turn?
[/quote]

1-Your head moves back in tandem with your spine (because it's a 17 lb weight attached to your spine) in proportion to the width of your stance. On a driver it moves more than with a wedge.

2-He discourages the term turn because you don't turn in any other athletic endeavor to DRIVE or PROPEL an object forward. The motion is taking the triangle established at address and moving in in one piece into the INSIDE of the right leg. Legend has it that hogan described the result of correctly executing the back swing was a pinching of your right between your groin and your pelvis.

3- In a turn the shoulders rotate level around a still head. Not good. In a coil the weight moves back, as I said, into the right instep while the left shoulder moves back (pretty much level) to the away from target and the right shoulder moves upward. (Picture Tom Brady getting ready to launch a bomb, right shoulder goes up and left shoulder moves back over right instep then he can just uncork toward the target. He would never spin (rotate, turn) around himself.

Hope that helps.
[/quote]

Ps. A coil connotes resistance, a turn doesn't create resistance, it's like spinning and it doesn't utilize a digging into your right leg to spring off of. Like a runner jumping out of the blocks.

[Forged_Irons]

[quote name='Cartrydge ' timestamp='1337105271' post='4919364']
I honestly hope it works for you but, what is different about this and the 40 other systems you have made posts about before. I think you would do yourself a world of good to stick with one system instead of bouncing around like crazy. There is no magic pill and you need to make sure what ever direction you choose you stick with it long enough to make some real changes.
[/quote]

Too true! Stick with one system. With one caveat, make sure it's based on fundamentals and not a system that promotes working backwards from finished product positions (a la Hogan) to trying to connect the fundamental dots yourself. In other words, there's no shortcut to swinging like the greats. They too at one time were beginners working on their fundamentals and didn't look nearly as polished. Baby steps. Too many are focused on how the swing looks rather than how it works. Too many golfers believe that the pros are working on a much more advanced move from which general public wouldn't benefit. Untrue. The pros (the ones with the most solid swings anyway) have simply been working on the fundamentals for much longer and likely far more often than we duffers. They just do the same basic moves better.

[tembolo1284]

Good stuff thanks forged_irons!

[Forged_Irons]

[quote name='greens hit' timestamp='1337093564' post='4918030']
My first paid instruction was at the Jim Colbert School in Seattle. Had a chance to meet Mr Ballard there. He gave me a few pointers. Specifically the glove under the left arm, a mentioned in the article. He was a nice man, albeit a bit eccentric.
[/quote]

I'd say he is eccentric also, but extremely smart and with the conviction of his cause. That cause being the antithesis of the slick golf pro who can pound a golf ball who has an even better knack for getting you to come back over and over again for platitudes, band aids, and quick fixes. Let's face it, most good players, mostly through athletic ability, have stumbled on a workable formula for their own swings but have no business helping others as they only understand what they think makes their own swing work. Jimmy knows what makes THE golf swing work.

[farmer]

Sadly, Dan got trashed so much in his original thread that he quit posting at all. Maybe you (Forged) will encourage him to come back.

[Forged_Irons]

Did he get thrashed? If so, it's likely due to ignorance. The simplicity of the truth is hard to bear for those of us who have been in the wilderness all our golfing lives thinking that we're one great tip away from "having it". So much so, that we do t want to hear that we've been going about this whole thing the wrong way all this time. Truly, the fundamentals are simple but not easy, whereas everything else seems to be convoluted but somehow more appealing to the mentally masterbating golf community at large.

Come back Dan and tell us of your progress!

[Jacob Mac]

Dan was trashed more so because he was finding his way on what pattern suited him best. And he shared his experience trying a couple of different methods. Too bad because he contributed some good stuff. And bouncing between patterns is pretty normal when trying to find your way. I know I have had my fair share of false starts.

[Tanner25]

[quote name='Forged_Irons' timestamp='1389114569' post='8415821']
Dan,

Enjoyed your insight on Ballard.

I'm approaching my third season employing his methods and the result is a seismic shift in my understanding of the fundamentals and extremely encouraging changes in my swing and ball striking.

Although I went to see Jimmy last spring with a buddy in Key Largo, which was a major eye opener and worth the trip for the education alone, I'd been working with Tom Rinna, one of Jimmy's assistants (Formerly with the Colbert/Ballard schools), here in Michigan. Prior to seeing Tom Rinna and Jimmy Ballard I'd been through what seemed like a lifetime roller coaster ride of inconsistent golf. I began golfing in college and managed to get down to a -4 index using primarily hand-eye coordination, myriad quick fix drills, band-aid remedies (many from from very highly rated professionals), beating endless balls to keep my timing, expensive golf schools, and reading every golf book and Golf Digest article I could find. This worked pretty well in casual rounds with my friends, but I'd fade like a J.C. Penny suit when I played a top 100 track, when things got really competitive, or if I simply wanted my skills to show up for an important round. Bottom line was that when I really needed it to work all the timing I'd developed on the range went out the window. I was in the wilderness.

What I learned from Tom, and later Jimmy himself, was that the golf swing isn't a mystery at all. I was relieved to discover that, yes, even in golf, there are the same basic fundamental motions found in most athletic activities, and once I accepted and understood this I could begin to change and progress naturally. This wasn't the magic wand I always thought was right around the corner, and fortunately so. Moreover, it wasn't some newly invented theory or a series of positions that never seemed natural, a la "stack and wilt".
It was simply athletics and the simple physics that have to take place to strike any object on the ground. I found it incredible that I could immediately make the motion easily using a hockey stick, baseball bat, tennis racquet, or even chopping wood, but when I'd attempt to hit a golf ball all my old bad habits would rear up. This proved to me that nearly everything I had learned to this point was completely wrong. The merry-go-round of tips and endlessly trying new theories on the range had ended, finally.

Honestly, I had never experienced a truly solid, piercing golf shot until I started making an athletic move. Before that it was always glancing blows to some degree or another. When one makes an athletic move the ball does things that can not be adequately described. It behaves!

Some noteworthy things I really like about Ballard's teaching:

-This approach came straight from Babe Ruth to Sam Byrd, to Ben Hogan, and ultimately to Jimmy Ballard. Without Sam Byrd, Ben Hogan might very well have been a footnote in professional golf as his early swing was a lot like my own, disconnected and terrible. -The entire basis for Jimmy's teaching is CONNECTION. Nobody knows more about what made Hogan's swing tick than Jimmy Ballard. Unfortunately, it doesn't seem that telling the truth has made Jimmy a lot of friends in golf's mainstream. But it has produced many, many winners. That's proof enough for me.

-Jimmy's had more winning students on all the tours than any other teacher.

-He's not teaching a cookie cutter approach. Everyone will look unique making this motion because of their physical and mental constitution. Notwithstanding appearances, the same fundamentals are employed.

-Anyone can make this move, "it's as simple as an underhanded tossing motion". You don't have to be Phil or Tiger. Children do it automatically before taught otherwise. (Usually in an effort to hit it further.)

-Jimmy doesn't teach impact drills or positions as he considers it inimical to swinging the club fast through the ball. Manufactured impact positions only slow the club head down.

-Most people make this athletic move naturally UNTIL they're told things like "hold your head still, keep their left arm straight, c0ck your wrists, turn, lag the club, fire your hips, etc.". (Again, usually as a short cut to more distance but a detriment to progress and consistency)

-Jimmy NEVER taught me to sway. He doesn't teach anyone to sway. (A sway is a move to the outside of the right foot.) What he teaches is a loading into the right side, where the head moves with the spine, so the student can use the big muscles to move right back and down into the ball and down the target line with the least amount of motion and energy expenditure. Same as in baseball, tennis, hockey, etc. (The Longer the shot the more noticeable the head move is, that is how pros measure distance. Observe for yourself: Watch Hogan (who preset his head to the right), Snead, (head flowed back) Nicholas (also preset), Federer, Gretzky, Cabrera (Miguel or Angel), Tom Brady, etc.. All these greats load into their right side to make an athletic move (to propel something forward), and consequently their heads move back several inches on the backswing to accommodate.

-With this motion the hands and arms are simply holding on to the club. No timing or extraneous hand, arm, or wrist action involved! (Watch Hogan's training drill on the Ed Sullivan show. It's on You Tube)

-Jimmy demonstrates how most of us are attempting to help the ball into the air instead of hitting down and through. (Many teachers advocate a descending blow but haven't the comprehensive methodology to back it up.)

-With the input of physicists and physicians Jimmy has completely debunked the idea of any rotary action or "turning" in the swing. He explains how TURNING is total misnomer and one of the biggest causes of glancing blows. According to Jimmy, it's impossible to turn on two fixed points (it causes twisting, reverse weight shifts, and coming over the top), and obviously most of us play on two feet.

-Jimmy explained the difference between feels and fundamental swing thoughts and how feels are abstract and unreliable.

-His method sometimes gets a bad rap for lack of distance. This couldn't be more wrong, I've had tremendous distance gains making athletic swings and with less motion, less effort, and far fewer back problems. Unlike some other methods it's not a shortcut to power and it does require a reasonable amount of repetition.

-Jimmy dispels the old canard that there are 1000s of good ways to swing a golf club. Exposing many accepted (PGA) teaching methods to the light of day. I agree with Tom and Jimmy that the reason the average golfer's score never improves is primarily because they aren't working on the fundamentals. Unfortunately many golfer's have been conditioned to believe, as I did, that each swing is totally unique to each individual and there isn't one best way to swing the club. Utterly untrue. When it comes to the great ball strikers with the longest careers, Jimmy can prove that, without exception, they were all making the same fundamental move while looking very different doing it. A la Tiger in 2000 vs. today. There's a reason he's not winning majors, he's gotten away from the basics. The irony is that with the Ballard approach he'd be putting less stress on his entire body because it's a natural move. With Ballard Tiger would likely win 10 more majors and again be untouchable.

-This is truly a swing for a lifetime because you'll never master it, you'll just keep getting better at it. The sky is the limit. There are no short cuts. And that's something every great performer will tell you about their craft. Conversely, you'll never "lose" the swing, because you'll no longer be relying on timing and contorted positions that cause DISCONNECTION leaving you back in the wilderness looking for elusive feels to right the ship.

I often wonder how many golfers will live their entire lives never experiencing true striking of the golf ball and the way the ball behaves when struck this way. This is not to be missed.

If you're a lifer like me you have to read Jimmy Ballard's book; "How To Perfect Your Golf Swing". Give yourself that gift. And if that piques your interest give Jimmy a call and he'll direct you to a teacher in your area.

James V.
Birmingham, MI

Interesting history-
[url="http://talesfromthebunker.com/tag/sam-byrd/"]http://talesfromtheb...m/tag/sam-byrd/[/url]
[/quote]

Welcome Forged. Looks like you have been through the journey and know a few things about the swing. Are there any other simple analogies - toss a ball underhand or swinging an ax that will help us understand Jimmy's teachings? The elbows down
do not work for me as I have a flying right elbow (rightie).

Cheers

Tanner

[PreppySlapCut]

Letting that right elbow fly, and thus losing the connection of the upper right arm, is contrary to what Ballard teaches. Doesn't make it wrong in any way, just saying I'd look elsewhere for info.

[Forged_Irons]

[quote name='Tanner25' timestamp='1390063393' post='8483607']
[quote name='Forged_Irons' timestamp='1389114569' post='8415821']
Dan,

Enjoyed your insight on Ballard.

I'm approaching my third season employing his methods and the result is a seismic shift in my understanding of the fundamentals and extremely encouraging changes in my swing and ball striking.

Although I went to see Jimmy last spring with a buddy in Key Largo, which was a major eye opener and worth the trip for the education alone, I'd been working with Tom Rinna, one of Jimmy's assistants (Formerly with the Colbert/Ballard schools), here in Michigan. Prior to seeing Tom Rinna and Jimmy Ballard I'd been through what seemed like a lifetime roller coaster ride of inconsistent golf. I began golfing in college and managed to get down to a -4 index using primarily hand-eye coordination, myriad quick fix drills, band-aid remedies (many from from very highly rated professionals), beating endless balls to keep my timing, expensive golf schools, and reading every golf book and Golf Digest article I could find. This worked pretty well in casual rounds with my friends, but I'd fade like a J.C. Penny suit when I played a top 100 track, when things got really competitive, or if I simply wanted my skills to show up for an important round. Bottom line was that when I really needed it to work all the timing I'd developed on the range went out the window. I was in the wilderness.

What I learned from Tom, and later Jimmy himself, was that the golf swing isn't a mystery at all. I was relieved to discover that, yes, even in golf, there are the same basic fundamental motions found in most athletic activities, and once I accepted and understood this I could begin to change and progress naturally. This wasn't the magic wand I always thought was right around the corner, and fortunately so. Moreover, it wasn't some newly invented theory or a series of positions that never seemed natural, a la "stack and wilt".
It was simply athletics and the simple physics that have to take place to strike any object on the ground. I found it incredible that I could immediately make the motion easily using a hockey stick, baseball bat, tennis racquet, or even chopping wood, but when I'd attempt to hit a golf ball all my old bad habits would rear up. This proved to me that nearly everything I had learned to this point was completely wrong. The merry-go-round of tips and endlessly trying new theories on the range had ended, finally.

Honestly, I had never experienced a truly solid, piercing golf shot until I started making an athletic move. Before that it was always glancing blows to some degree or another. When one makes an athletic move the ball does things that can not be adequately described. It behaves!

Some noteworthy things I really like about Ballard's teaching:

-This approach came straight from Babe Ruth to Sam Byrd, to Ben Hogan, and ultimately to Jimmy Ballard. Without Sam Byrd, Ben Hogan might very well have been a footnote in professional golf as his early swing was a lot like my own, disconnected and terrible. -The entire basis for Jimmy's teaching is CONNECTION. Nobody knows more about what made Hogan's swing tick than Jimmy Ballard. Unfortunately, it doesn't seem that telling the truth has made Jimmy a lot of friends in golf's mainstream. But it has produced many, many winners. That's proof enough for me.

-Jimmy's had more winning students on all the tours than any other teacher.

-He's not teaching a cookie cutter approach. Everyone will look unique making this motion because of their physical and mental constitution. Notwithstanding appearances, the same fundamentals are employed.

-Anyone can make this move, "it's as simple as an underhanded tossing motion". You don't have to be Phil or Tiger. Children do it automatically before taught otherwise. (Usually in an effort to hit it further.)

-Jimmy doesn't teach impact drills or positions as he considers it inimical to swinging the club fast through the ball. Manufactured impact positions only slow the club head down.

-Most people make this athletic move naturally UNTIL they're told things like "hold your head still, keep their left arm straight, c0ck your wrists, turn, lag the club, fire your hips, etc.". (Again, usually as a short cut to more distance but a detriment to progress and consistency)

-Jimmy NEVER taught me to sway. He doesn't teach anyone to sway. (A sway is a move to the outside of the right foot.) What he teaches is a loading into the right side, where the head moves with the spine, so the student can use the big muscles to move right back and down into the ball and down the target line with the least amount of motion and energy expenditure. Same as in baseball, tennis, hockey, etc. (The Longer the shot the more noticeable the head move is, that is how pros measure distance. Observe for yourself: Watch Hogan (who preset his head to the right), Snead, (head flowed back) Nicholas (also preset), Federer, Gretzky, Cabrera (Miguel or Angel), Tom Brady, etc.. All these greats load into their right side to make an athletic move (to propel something forward), and consequently their heads move back several inches on the backswing to accommodate.

-With this motion the hands and arms are simply holding on to the club. No timing or extraneous hand, arm, or wrist action involved! (Watch Hogan's training drill on the Ed Sullivan show. It's on You Tube)

-Jimmy demonstrates how most of us are attempting to help the ball into the air instead of hitting down and through. (Many teachers advocate a descending blow but haven't the comprehensive methodology to back it up.)

-With the input of physicists and physicians Jimmy has completely debunked the idea of any rotary action or "turning" in the swing. He explains how TURNING is total misnomer and one of the biggest causes of glancing blows. According to Jimmy, it's impossible to turn on two fixed points (it causes twisting, reverse weight shifts, and coming over the top), and obviously most of us play on two feet.

-Jimmy explained the difference between feels and fundamental swing thoughts and how feels are abstract and unreliable.

-His method sometimes gets a bad rap for lack of distance. This couldn't be more wrong, I've had tremendous distance gains making athletic swings and with less motion, less effort, and far fewer back problems. Unlike some other methods it's not a shortcut to power and it does require a reasonable amount of repetition.

-Jimmy dispels the old canard that there are 1000s of good ways to swing a golf club. Exposing many accepted (PGA) teaching methods to the light of day. I agree with Tom and Jimmy that the reason the average golfer's score never improves is primarily because they aren't working on the fundamentals. Unfortunately many golfer's have been conditioned to believe, as I did, that each swing is totally unique to each individual and there isn't one best way to swing the club. Utterly untrue. When it comes to the great ball strikers with the longest careers, Jimmy can prove that, without exception, they were all making the same fundamental move while looking very different doing it. A la Tiger in 2000 vs. today. There's a reason he's not winning majors, he's gotten away from the basics. The irony is that with the Ballard approach he'd be putting less stress on his entire body because it's a natural move. With Ballard Tiger would likely win 10 more majors and again be untouchable.

-This is truly a swing for a lifetime because you'll never master it, you'll just keep getting better at it. The sky is the limit. There are no short cuts. And that's something every great performer will tell you about their craft. Conversely, you'll never "lose" the swing, because you'll no longer be relying on timing and contorted positions that cause DISCONNECTION leaving you back in the wilderness looking for elusive feels to right the ship.

I often wonder how many golfers will live their entire lives never experiencing true striking of the golf ball and the way the ball behaves when struck this way. This is not to be missed.

If you're a lifer like me you have to read Jimmy Ballard's book; "How To Perfect Your Golf Swing". Give yourself that gift. And if that piques your interest give Jimmy a call and he'll direct you to a teacher in your area.

James V.
Birmingham, MI

Interesting history-
[url="http://talesfromthebunker.com/tag/sam-byrd/"]http://talesfromtheb...m/tag/sam-byrd/[/url]
[/quote]

Welcome Forged. Looks like you have been through the journey and know a few things about the swing. Are there any other simple analogies - toss a ball underhand or swinging an ax that will help us understand Jimmy's teachings? The elbows down
do not work for me as I have a flying right elbow (rightie).

Cheers

Tanner
[/quote]

I really like the split hand drill where you separate your hands about 6 inches apart on the grip. This really makes your right side do the work. Imagine a hockey slapshot motion using the whole body and negating any independent arm motion. Observe how the left arm feels shorter and just goes along for the ride. No pulling. Curtis Strange did this thru the 1980s.
This drill also does wonder for a good coiled backswing!

[stryper]

I'm usually not one to get too caught up in swing theories, internet or magazine tips, nor do I like to do a lot of tinkering, but you Ballard Balladeers have got me curious. So I started rooting around trying to get more information and found is little gem from another site: http://www.mizunoforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=2048

Seems like a pretty good primer for Ballard's teaching.

[tembolo1284]

Does ballard teach anyone on tour still?

[exgolfpro]

[quote name='tembolo1284' timestamp='1390497132' post='8516827']
Does ballard teach anyone on tour still?
[/quote]

Rocco Mediate on the senior tour. Not sure of anyone on the regular tour.

[tembolo1284]

Does his technique seem to favor a ball flight in particular?

I remember slicefixer saying when he did it he noticed it produces a very straight ball with maybe a hint of a fade tendency...but very low.

Seems the opposite of what rocco hits...kind of a mid-higher pronounced push draw.

He does set up awfully closed though.

[Forged_Irons]

[quote name='tembolo1284' timestamp='1390497132' post='8516827']
Does ballard teach anyone on tour still?
[/quote]
Scott Piercy was seeing him last year not sure if he currently sees him. Joe Durrant. Zinger, Rocco senior tour.

[tembolo1284]

Azinger still hits a good ball. He hits it awfully low though...I guess that's more his style of grip.

[tembolo1284]

More so his grip than the ballard method I meant to say.

[Forged_Irons]

[quote name='tembolo1284' timestamp='1390501237' post='8517357']
Does his technique seem to favor a ball flight in particular?

I remember slicefixer saying when he did it he noticed it produces a very straight ball with maybe a hint of a fade tendency...but very low.

Seems the opposite of what rocco hits...kind of a mid-higher pronounced push draw.

He does set up awfully closed though.
[/quote]
Ballard's technique (which is basically just good athletics) generally produces a straight ball with a piercing flight. Depending in the player they can adjust to hit a fade or a draw if they choose. He is teaching the real deal so players can work the ball as they will.

[tembolo1284]

I just heard his ball flight tends to be lower...just wanted to see if you also noticed that.

[tembolo1284]

I agree his motion is very athletic!

[Forged_Irons]

[quote name='tembolo1284' timestamp='1390519448' post='8519377']
I just heard his ball flight tends to be lower...just wanted to see if you also noticed that.
[/quote]
It's not lower at the apex, it's simply a more boring trajectory so it starts out lower I believe but ends up flying like a jet taking off from a runway with that ascending arc that plateaus and then falls from the sky and settles without much deviation. Here's an interesting way of looking at it. When I make Jimmy's athletic move well it's like I'm hitting a feather with a wrecking ball. The club head, when swung well, has all the mass in my body channelling through the shaft into the ball and I can't even feel my hands. Feels like I'm hitting it with my sternum many times. Anyway, when I used to swing around myself and lift and separate my arms I could hit it decently but any negative weather condition like wind or cold (or god forbid both) would affect the ball greatly. Knock it outta the sky if you will. If it was really cold I'd lose tons of distance! The way I'm swinging lately (more and more as I progress) the more the ball just seems to cut through the air, just tears through it and is virtually unaffected (in distance or direction) by the cold or wind!!! It's absolutely insane!!!

[pinhigh27]

[quote name='Forged_Irons' timestamp='1390525004' post='8519945']
[quote name='tembolo1284' timestamp='1390519448' post='8519377']
I just heard his ball flight tends to be lower...just wanted to see if you also noticed that.
[/quote]
It's not lower at the apex, it's simply a more boring trajectory so it starts out lower I believe but ends up flying like a jet taking off from a runway with that ascending arc that plateaus and then falls from the sky and settles without much deviation. Here's an interesting way of looking at it. When I make Jimmy's athletic move well it's like I'm hitting a feather with a wrecking ball. The club head, when swung well, has all the mass in my body channelling through the shaft into the ball and I can't even feel my hands. Feels like I'm hitting it with my sternum many times. Anyway, when I used to swing around myself and lift and separate my arms I could hit it decently but any negative weather condition like wind or cold (or god forbid both) would affect the ball greatly. Knock it outta the sky if you will. If it was really cold I'd lose tons of distance! The way I'm swinging lately (more and more as I progress) the more the ball just seems to cut through the air, just tears through it and is virtually unaffected (in distance or direction) by the cold or wind!!! It's absolutely insane!!!
[/quote]

That doesn't really add up though. If you are launching it lower than before, yet you spin it less(cuts through wind better) it would have a lower apex.

[Forged_Irons]

[quote name='pinhigh27' timestamp='1390525668' post='8520023']
[quote name='Forged_Irons' timestamp='1390525004' post='8519945']
[quote name='tembolo1284' timestamp='1390519448' post='8519377']
I just heard his ball flight tends to be lower...just wanted to see if you also noticed that.
[/quote]
It's not lower at the apex, it's simply a more boring trajectory so it starts out lower I believe but ends up flying like a jet taking off from a runway with that ascending arc that plateaus and then falls from the sky and settles without much deviation. Here's an interesting way of looking at it. When I make Jimmy's athletic move well it's like I'm hitting a feather with a wrecking ball. The club head, when swung well, has all the mass in my body channelling through the shaft into the ball and I can't even feel my hands. Feels like I'm hitting it with my sternum many times. Anyway, when I used to swing around myself and lift and separate my arms I could hit it decently but any negative weather condition like wind or cold (or god forbid both) would affect the ball greatly. Knock it outta the sky if you will. If it was really cold I'd lose tons of distance! The way I'm swinging lately (more and more as I progress) the more the ball just seems to cut through the air, just tears through it and is virtually unaffected (in distance or direction) by the cold or wind!!! It's absolutely insane!!!
[/quote]

That doesn't really add up though. If you are launching it lower than before, yet you spin it less(cuts through wind better) it would have a lower apex.
[/quote]
It doesn't cut through the wind better because it's traveling below the wind, it cuts through because it's a heavier hit. i.e. More mass propelling it due to all the forces in the swing working together to "push" the ball forward. In many of the swing techniques you are not taking the most direct route back to the ball with the club head and/or the club face is not square to the swing arc and therefore there is loss of efficiency and centeredness of hit. A similar example in tennis would be a flat shot vs a top spin shot. In the former it is a driving motion where the path and the face angle are ideally square to the target (that's what we want in golf to propel the ball to the objective). In the latter the racquet face is square to the target but the face is not. The topspin example is is kind of like what most golfers do, and what I used to do, where the club face is reasonably square at impact yet the path is not, or even vice versa.

[Forged_Irons]

[quote name='pinhigh27' timestamp='1390525668' post='8520023']
[quote name='Forged_Irons' timestamp='1390525004' post='8519945']
[quote name='tembolo1284' timestamp='1390519448' post='8519377']
I just heard his ball flight tends to be lower...just wanted to see if you also noticed that.
[/quote]
It's not lower at the apex, it's simply a more boring trajectory so it starts out lower I believe but ends up flying like a jet taking off from a runway with that ascending arc that plateaus and then falls from the sky and settles without much deviation. Here's an interesting way of looking at it. When I make Jimmy's athletic move well it's like I'm hitting a feather with a wrecking ball. The club head, when swung well, has all the mass in my body channelling through the shaft into the ball and I can't even feel my hands. Feels like I'm hitting it with my sternum many times. Anyway, when I used to swing around myself and lift and separate my arms I could hit it decently but any negative weather condition like wind or cold (or god forbid both) would affect the ball greatly. Knock it outta the sky if you will. If it was really cold I'd lose tons of distance! The way I'm swinging lately (more and more as I progress) the more the ball just seems to cut through the air, just tears through it and is virtually unaffected (in distance or direction) by the cold or wind!!! It's absolutely insane!!!
[/quote]

That doesn't really add up though. If you are launching it lower than before, yet you spin it less(cuts through wind better) it would have a lower apex.
[/quote]
Also it doesn't necessarily spin less, it has much less side spin though with the right amount of under spin.

[PreppySlapCut]

The flight tends to be lower because there's less axis tilt. I don't find the ball flight to be as low as Mr. Jones makes it out to be. However, anytime you're more on top of it with less secondary you're going to launch it lower (and likely hit it straighter).

[Forged_Irons]

[quote name='PreppySlapCut' timestamp='1390529453' post='8520389']
The flight tends to be lower because there's less axis tilt. I don't find the ball flight to be as low as Mr. Jones makes it out to be. However, anytime you're more on top of it with less secondary you're going to launch it lower (and likely hit it straighter).
[/quote]
Covering the ball (being more on top of it) is the only way to do it. Besides, the ball will check on the green even with long irons when you cover it as preppyslapcut suggests. I think the reason so many players want the rainmaker ball flight into the greens is because they have too much sidespin on the ball and not enough end over end spin. If I don't know what my ball will do when it hits the green (because of sidespin) then having it travel on a super high U shaped arc negates sidespin issues. When the ball is hit with a square club face that's traveling on an arc that's complimentary to the target and the club head is released properly to the target the ball will fly straight, hit and spin to a halt. It won't squirt off sideways and trundle god knows where.