The ballad of Jimmy Ballard...

[pinhigh27]

It's a heavier hit? Assuming you weren't deflecting a huge margin, you still should have gotten pretty decent smashes... The route of the club in the backswing means nothing. If you are square at impact, you won't deflect. Don't forget that during all this talk we are talking about fractions, not anything you'd actually notice, unless you were deflecting by huge margins...

Preppy you just said you'd launch it lower, but then said its because of axis tilt....

Going to back to forged, your definition of its flight would be low(er) launch with high(er) spin. If you launch it lower, and spin it the same, the shot is going to fly lower. Assuming the same speed, which is relatively true, unless you had deflection somehow costing you 10 mph of BS.

[tembolo1284]

Not sure what a heavier hit means.

[pinhigh27]

[quote name='tembolo1284' timestamp='1390535520' post='8521301']
Not sure what a heavier hit means.
[/quote]

Nothing. It's not possible. If you max smash, that's all the energy the ball is going to get. Obviously we can improve launch conditions but that has nothing to do with a heavy hit.

[stryper]

[quote name='pinhigh27' timestamp='1390543434' post='8521889']
[quote name='tembolo1284' timestamp='1390535520' post='8521301']
Not sure what a heavier hit means.
[/quote]

Nothing. It's not possible. If you max smash, that's all the energy the ball is going to get. Obviously we can improve launch conditions but that has nothing to do with a heavy hit.
[/quote]

Hmmm...I would tend to agree, however, in baseballs, catchers/broadcasters often refer to certain pitchers as throwing a "heavy ball" that punishes the hand inside the mitt. This seems to be independent from velocity, as pitches are measured on radar all the time, and these guys aren't necessarily the ones throwing 100+. My guess would be that the phenomena, if it exists at all beyond the minds of guys who'd been run over at the plate too many times, is more spin related.

Of course, I'm not sure this translates in any way to golf, but I thought I'd throw it (heavily) out there.

[Sabanator]

[quote name='PreppySlapCut' timestamp='1390529453' post='8520389']
The flight tends to be lower because there's less axis tilt. I don't find the ball flight to be as low as Mr. Jones makes it out to be. However, anytime you're more on top of it with less secondary you're going to launch it lower (and likely hit it straighter).
[/quote]

I followed Rocco for 2 rounds at a tournament last year. He mostly hits a high draw. Don't recall any low shots

[erikro]

The comments about the fade are interesting. Since trying Ballard's method I have been hitting a draw. I never hit one before now.

[pinhigh27]

[quote name='stryper' timestamp='1390563887' post='8522295']
[quote name='pinhigh27' timestamp='1390543434' post='8521889']
[quote name='tembolo1284' timestamp='1390535520' post='8521301']
Not sure what a heavier hit means.
[/quote]

Nothing. It's not possible. If you max smash, that's all the energy the ball is going to get. Obviously we can improve launch conditions but that has nothing to do with a heavy hit.
[/quote]

Hmmm...I would tend to agree, however, in baseballs, catchers/broadcasters often refer to certain pitchers as throwing a "heavy ball" that punishes the hand inside the mitt. This seems to be independent from velocity, as pitches are measured on radar all the time, and these guys aren't necessarily the ones throwing 100+. My guess would be that the phenomena, if it exists at all beyond the minds of guys who'd been run over at the plate too many times, is more spin related.

Of course, I'm not sure this translates in any way to golf, but I thought I'd throw it (heavily) out there.
[/quote]

Heavy balls in baseball are just ones that break late and the catcher can't put good glove on it..
If you are hitting 60 yard pushes and pulls that come back on line, then deflection will be an issue in regards to distance. However if someone is hitting it dead straight compared to 10 yard push pull, which is still a lot for most, you'd never be able to see that one flies "heavier."
The only actual way to explain the stated flight (assuming a realistic amount of deflection ) is that there was a change in launch conditions. If it starts lower, that's a lower launch angle. If it still gets up to same height, it's more spin. Even higher would be even more spin, and clearly lower than before would be the same or less spin due to the lowering of launch.

[PreppySlapCut]

[quote name='pinhigh27' timestamp='1390534448' post='8521139']
Preppy you just said you'd launch it lower, but then said its because of axis tilt....
[/quote]
Yes that's what I personally find to be the cause.

[pinhigh27]

[quote name='PreppySlapCut' timestamp='1390580173' post='8523593']
[quote name='pinhigh27' timestamp='1390534448' post='8521139']
Preppy you just said you'd launch it lower, but then said its because of axis tilt....
[/quote]
Yes that's what I personally find to be the cause.
[/quote]

How does axis tilt affect launch ?

[stryper]

[quote name='pinhigh27' timestamp='1390578854' post='8523453']
[quote name='stryper' timestamp='1390563887' post='8522295']
[quote name='pinhigh27' timestamp='1390543434' post='8521889']
[quote name='tembolo1284' timestamp='1390535520' post='8521301']
Not sure what a heavier hit means.
[/quote]

Nothing. It's not possible. If you max smash, that's all the energy the ball is going to get. Obviously we can improve launch conditions but that has nothing to do with a heavy hit.
[/quote]

Hmmm...I would tend to agree, however, in baseballs, catchers/broadcasters often refer to certain pitchers as throwing a "heavy ball" that punishes the hand inside the mitt. This seems to be independent from velocity, as pitches are measured on radar all the time, and these guys aren't necessarily the ones throwing 100+. My guess would be that the phenomena, if it exists at all beyond the minds of guys who'd been run over at the plate too many times, is more spin related.

Of course, I'm not sure this translates in any way to golf, but I thought I'd throw it (heavily) out there.
[/quote]

Heavy balls in baseball are just ones that break late and the catcher can't put good glove on it..
If you are hitting 60 yard pushes and pulls that come back on line, then deflection will be an issue in regards to distance. However if someone is hitting it dead straight compared to 10 yard push pull, which is still a lot for most, you'd never be able to see that one flies "heavier."
The only actual way to explain the stated flight (assuming a realistic amount of deflection ) is that there was a change in launch conditions. If it starts lower, that's a lower launch angle. If it still gets up to same height, it's more spin. Even higher would be even more spin, and clearly lower than before would be the same or less spin due to the lowering of launch.
[/quote]

Not sure about the late break thing, as I'm not sure the physics/aerodynamics involved allow such a thing. Spin and velocity can only decrease once the ball leaves the pitcher's hand, so there's no force that can occur later in flight that can change the path of the ball, or the aerodynamic forces surrounding the ball. I think late break is really more of an optical illusion, while a heavy ball seems to be more of a physical sensation. Again, just throwing it out there.

Now, to get back to Ballard...is it possible at the Ballard swing produces a ball flight that is perceived to be heavier, the same way catchers perceive some pitchers to throw a heavier ball, even if it is something as simple as more solid contact? (Personally, I would find that odd, as to me the purest strikes always feel effortless or even lighter.) Reading through this thread, it doesn't seem to be uncommon for Ballard newbies to describe a different feel to their ball flight.

[bph7]

[quote name='pinhigh27' timestamp='1390581833' post='8523765']
[quote name='PreppySlapCut' timestamp='1390580173' post='8523593']
[quote name='pinhigh27' timestamp='1390534448' post='8521139']
Preppy you just said you'd launch it lower, but then said its because of axis tilt....
[/quote]
Yes that's what I personally find to be the cause.
[/quote]

How does axis tilt affect launch ?
[/quote]

I don't think it would directly, but, all else being constant, doesn't more secondary axis tilt equal lower AOA, which would directly effect spin loft and compression, which would certainly affect launch, no?

[Forged_Irons]

You guys need to understand that the backswing, downswing, and through swing determine the path the club head takes through space and it's ability to release properly (which is what should be responsible for a square club through impact and not some artificial effort to square it up with the hands, wrists, or arms) on the intended target line and compress the ball fully. This is what causes a heavy hit. All the forces operating in unison and coordination. That's why it's a complete fallacy that the only thing that matters is what the club face looks like at impact. Total nonsense. If I was playing hockey and hitting a slap shot and my blade was square at impact but I had the stick traveling inside-out or outside-in in relation to the target for whatever reason, the puck would start out straight but the full forward force of the correct path wouldn't be adding power to the shot.p. You'd be shortchanged in other words. It would be a weak shot and not "a heavy hit.
Same with a field goal kicker. If the path of his foot is incidental (not square) to the target line he intends, he will produce a weak shot that is probably going to get pummeled by the elements. If the path of his foot is dead square to the intended target line he will kick a heavy penetrating s*** that has little chance of being affected by the wind.
Here's another example: everyone knows the physics toy that has 5 or 6 balls on strings and when you collide one with the rest on a dead straight path nearly all the energy is transferred to the ball on the other side of the row. (Heavy hit) If you collide the same ball with the others on an oblique angle only a fraction of that energy travels to the other side if the rack.
In baseball I believe that when two pitches of equal speed but different spins (and therefore different paths of flight) are compared, the heavy ball is the one that doesn't deviate from it's intended line very much. All the energy is going toward the same end.

[Forged_Irons]

[quote name='stryper' timestamp='1390583197' post='8523961']
[quote name='pinhigh27' timestamp='1390578854' post='8523453']
[quote name='stryper' timestamp='1390563887' post='8522295']
[quote name='pinhigh27' timestamp='1390543434' post='8521889']
[quote name='tembolo1284' timestamp='1390535520' post='8521301']
Not sure what a heavier hit means.
[/quote]

Nothing. It's not possible. If you max smash, that's all the energy the ball is going to get. Obviously we can improve launch conditions but that has nothing to do with a heavy hit.
[/quote]

Hmmm...I would tend to agree, however, in baseballs, catchers/broadcasters often refer to certain pitchers as throwing a "heavy ball" that punishes the hand inside the mitt. This seems to be independent from velocity, as pitches are measured on radar all the time, and these guys aren't necessarily the ones throwing 100+. My guess would be that the phenomena, if it exists at all beyond the minds of guys who'd been run over at the plate too many times, is more spin related.

Of course, I'm not sure this translates in any way to golf, but I thought I'd throw it (heavily) out there.
[/quote]

Heavy balls in baseball are just ones that break late and the catcher can't put good glove on it..
If you are hitting 60 yard pushes and pulls that come back on line, then deflection will be an issue in regards to distance. However if someone is hitting it dead straight compared to 10 yard push pull, which is still a lot for most, you'd never be able to see that one flies "heavier."
The only actual way to explain the stated flight (assuming a realistic amount of deflection ) is that there was a change in launch conditions. If it starts lower, that's a lower launch angle. If it still gets up to same height, it's more spin. Even higher would be even more spin, and clearly lower than before would be the same or less spin due to the lowering of launch.
[/quote]

Not sure about the late break thing, as I'm not sure the physics/aerodynamics involved allow such a thing. Spin and velocity can only decrease once the ball leaves the pitcher's hand, so there's no force that can occur later in flight that can change the path of the ball, or the aerodynamic forces surrounding the ball. I think late break is really more of an optical illusion, while a heavy ball seems to be more of a physical sensation. Again, just throwing it out there.

Now, to get back to Ballard...is it possible at the Ballard swing produces a ball flight that is perceived to be heavier, the same way catchers perceive some pitchers to throw a heavier ball, even if it is something as simple as more solid contact? (Personally, I would find that odd, as to me the purest strikes always feel effortless or even lighter.) Reading through this thread, it doesn't seem to be uncommon for Ballard newbies to describe a different feel to their ball flight.
[/quote]
A heavy hit doesn't feel heavy to the deliverer, as it is the epitome of efficient motion, it feels effortless. If the ball had feelings I guarantee it wouldn't feel effortless on that end. Ha.

[Forged_Irons]

Also, this is not a Ballard phenomenon, but an athletic phenomenon. I suspect that all the greats felt this at the height of their powers.

[Forged_Irons]

Here's why it's just athletics and no different from other "stick and ball" games.



http://www.stevewozeniak.com/2013/05/one-out-of-two-is-bad/

http://www.stevewozeniak.com/2007/11/golf-just-another-sport-using-a-stick/

[gators78]

[quote name='PreppySlapCut' timestamp='1390580173' post='8523593']
[quote name='pinhigh27' timestamp='1390534448' post='8521139']
Preppy you just said you'd launch it lower, but then said its because of axis tilt....
[/quote]
Yes that's what I personally find to be the cause.
[/quote]

Releasing it with minimal tilt is something I never figured out. You really have to make an effort to roll those arms over when it feels like you turn dead level.

[Hstead]

Man I have tried to stay out of this one but with all due respect, Mr. Wozeniak is full of it. First, it is pretty dang clear that Weir is hitting some kind of hold off punch shot. Weir does not swing like that on all full shots. That is a low blow and ridiculous to compare that to other players that are sling flippers.

And the stuff "all great players work the toe around the ball" is just old ball flight confusion and total crap. Kenny Perry is one of the best ball strikers on the Sr. Tour and he gets to impact with the face wide open compared to the target, heel well in front of the toe, his path is right, and he draws the ball. His "glancing" blow is one of the longest on the Sr Tour. This guys has no clue what the ball and club collisions are actually doing.

Very few PGA Tour players have 0 face angles with 0 paths. It is proven with TM.

[Forged_Irons]

[quote name='Hstead' timestamp='1390591314' post='8524753']
Man I have tried to stay out of this one but with all due respect, Mr. Wozeniak is full of it. First, it is pretty dang clear that Weir is hitting some kind of hold off punch shot. Weir does not swing like that on all full shots. That is a low blow and ridiculous to compare that to other players that are sling flippers.

And the stuff "all great players work the toe around the ball" is just old ball flight confusion and total crap. Kenny Perry is one of the best ball strikers on the Sr. Tour and he gets to impact with the face wide open compared to the target, heel well in front of the toe, his path is right, and he draws the ball. His "glancing" blow is one of the longest on the Sr Tour. This guys has no clue what the ball and club collisions are actually doing.

Very few PGA Tour players have 0 face angles with 0 paths. It is proven with TM.
[/quote]
TM is a way to nit pick any swing to death. Paralysis by analysis. I'm gonna check Perry's swing but I seriously doubt he blocks his shots as you suggest. The club face ideally works like a door on a hinge through the ball because it's traveling on an arc. The pros are familiar with this concept and often feel as though the club face is wrapping around the ball through the hitting zone. This describes a natural release without manipulation. If the toe of Perry's club is pointing at the target at about shin high through the ball then he is releasing it and should not be sited as having an open face through the ball. Stop motion photography only shows a moment in time it doesn't show what's happening motion wise. Motion wise I suggest his club face in in the process of "wrapping around" and compressing the ball. No way he'd pound it with a big glancing blow.
Also, for the record, the images and verbiage I've been using describes ideals. No one, not even Hogan himself swung perfectly.

[Forged_Irons]

[quote name='Hstead' timestamp='1390591314' post='8524753']
Man I have tried to stay out of this one but with all due respect, Mr. Wozeniak is full of it. First, it is pretty dang clear that Weir is hitting some kind of hold off punch shot. Weir does not swing like that on all full shots. That is a low blow and ridiculous to compare that to other players that are sling flippers.

And the stuff "all great players work the toe around the ball" is just old ball flight confusion and total crap. Kenny Perry is one of the best ball strikers on the Sr. Tour and he gets to impact with the face wide open compared to the target, heel well in front of the toe, his path is right, and he draws the ball. His "glancing" blow is one of the longest on the Sr Tour. This guys has no clue what the ball and club collisions are actually doing.

Very few PGA Tour players have 0 face angles with 0 paths. It is proven with TM.
[/quote]
Weir could be hitting a punch hold off shot here. Nonetheless, he's listened to the wrong ideas clearly. He changed his swing and it's hurting him.

[Forged_Irons]

[quote name='Hstead' timestamp='1390591314' post='8524753']
Man I have tried to stay out of this one but with all due respect, Mr. Wozeniak is full of it. First, it is pretty dang clear that Weir is hitting some kind of hold off punch shot. Weir does not swing like that on all full shots. That is a low blow and ridiculous to compare that to other players that are sling flippers.

And the stuff "all great players work the toe around the ball" is just old ball flight confusion and total crap. Kenny Perry is one of the best ball strikers on the Sr. Tour and he gets to impact with the face wide open compared to the target, heel well in front of the toe, his path is right, and he draws the ball. His "glancing" blow is one of the longest on the Sr Tour. This guys has no clue what the ball and club collisions are actually doing.

Very few PGA Tour players have 0 face angles with 0 paths. It is proven with TM.
[/quote]
Weir's a hockey player that should have stuck with his hockey swing. A hockey slapshot is just like a good golf swing only with hands separated.

[Hstead]

Kenny Perry has his face approximately 3 degrees right of the target at impact and his path is 6 degrees right of his target on average according to TM. It has nothing to do with paralysis by analysis and everything to do with physics and what is actually happening at impact. You do not hit a draw with the face "closing" or "toe wrapping around" the ball. That has all been debunked a long time ago. The face determines the start line for the most part, over 80% and the path determines curve. This is really not new. But evidently Steve still doesn't understand it. Having a face 3 degrees left of the 6 degree rightward path is not glancing. As pin mentioned earlier, a 1.50 smash is a 1.50 smash regardless of path and face.

[Forged_Irons]

[quote name='Hstead' timestamp='1390597995' post='8525393']
Kenny Perry has his face approximately 3 degrees right of the target at impact and his path is 6 degrees right of his target on average according to TM. It has nothing to do with paralysis by analysis and everything to do with physics and what is actually happening at impact. You do not hit a draw with the face "closing" or "toe wrapping around" the ball. That has all been debunked a long time ago. The face determines the start line for the most part, over 80% and the path determines curve. This is really not new. But evidently Steve still doesn't understand it. Having a face 3 degrees left of the 6 degree rightward path is not glancing. As pin mentioned earlier, a 1.50 smash is a 1.50 smash regardless of path and face.
[/quote]
If perry didn't release it it wouldn't draw. He's hitting the ball to the right to draw it. His intended target line is to the right of the actual target. So his club face is actually square to his intended target line it appears open in relation to a straight target line. If he didn't release the toe the ball would go straight right. The opposite would be true for a fader of the ball, the face would appear closed at impact but square to the intended target line left of the actual target.
Do you understand now?

[Hstead]

Let me make sure what you are saying. So he is drawing the ball by "releasing the toe"? His face is square to his start line? And the toe closing causes it to draw? What does the path do?

[JPGolf FL]

Forgedirons is sounding a bit like j. Miller and co. from last year. "Hard to believe this ball went left with the club opening....... Yea seems impossible"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hcq0xhAe7UI

This club was clearly not "wrapping around the ball", how did it hook forged irons?????? It's because the ball has no idea what the club face is doing after it has already left.

[Lefthook]

[quote name='Forged_Irons' timestamp='1390586423' post='8524291']

A heavy hit doesn't feel heavy to the deliverer, as it is the epitome of efficient motion, it feels effortless. If the ball had feelings I guarantee it wouldn't feel effortless on that end. Ha.
[/quote]

It seems like your definition of a heavy hit is the opposite of mine...

[pinhigh27]

Your stuff sounds good in theory, but it's just not significant enough to matter. Once you hit 1.50 smash, that's it. You aren't applying any more energy, you are just handling it more efficiently. This is where launch stats come in. The difference between someone with face and path completely square(which would of course assume 0 AoA ) or someone face 2 open and path 4 right in terms of ball speed isn't even quantifiable. You aren't going to see a reduce in BS due to deflection under playable circumstances.
It's cool to say you're hitting the ball more solidly or that you feel more confident so you let it rip more. But there's no such thing as a heavy hit. With regards to the baseball thing, that was just something I read, I'd agree with you that the physics don't make sense, but I also don't understand how a knuckleball wobbles almost randomly.

[PutterKilledTheDream]

[quote name='Forged_Irons' timestamp='1390597646' post='8525341']
[quote name='Hstead' timestamp='1390591314' post='8524753']
Man I have tried to stay out of this one but with all due respect, Mr. Wozeniak is full of it. First, it is pretty dang clear that Weir is hitting some kind of hold off punch shot. Weir does not swing like that on all full shots. That is a low blow and ridiculous to compare that to other players that are sling flippers.

And the stuff "all great players work the toe around the ball" is just old ball flight confusion and total crap. Kenny Perry is one of the best ball strikers on the Sr. Tour and he gets to impact with the face wide open compared to the target, heel well in front of the toe, his path is right, and he draws the ball. His "glancing" blow is one of the longest on the Sr Tour. This guys has no clue what the ball and club collisions are actually doing.

Very few PGA Tour players have 0 face angles with 0 paths. It is proven with TM.
[/quote]
TM is a way to nit pick any swing to death. Paralysis by analysis. I'm gonna check Perry's swing but I seriously doubt he blocks his shots as you suggest. The club face ideally works like a door on a hinge through the ball because it's traveling on an arc. The pros are familiar with this concept and often feel as though the club face is wrapping around the ball through the hitting zone. This describes a natural release without manipulation. If the toe of Perry's club is pointing at the target at about shin high through the ball then he is releasing it and should not be sited as having an open face through the ball. Stop motion photography only shows a moment in time it doesn't show what's happening motion wise. Motion wise I suggest his club face in in the process of "wrapping around" and compressing the ball. No way he'd pound it with a big glancing blow.
Also, for the record, the images and verbiage I've been using describes ideals. No one, not even Hogan himself swung perfectly.
[/quote]
This is about as inaccurate as it gets. HStead is 100% correct about Perry's face at impact. Of course it's releasing in time through the arc, but at the moment of truth, where ball flight is determined, it absolutely is right of where his ultate target is.

[PreppySlapCut]

[quote name='gators78' timestamp='1390587244' post='8524389']
[quote name='PreppySlapCut' timestamp='1390580173' post='8523593']
[quote name='pinhigh27' timestamp='1390534448' post='8521139']
Preppy you just said you'd launch it lower, but then said its because of axis tilt....
[/quote]
Yes that's what I personally find to be the cause.
[/quote]

Releasing it with minimal tilt is something I never figured out. You really have to make an effort to roll those arms over when it feels like you turn dead level.
[/quote]
I don't like to personally feel like I'm releasing it. I feel like I'm squaring it up and I'm just going to keep pivoting. I'm sure this sounds abstract, and I apologize but it's difficult to convey a feel; rather than feeling like I go from open to closed and impact occurs somewhere in between, I feel like the club goes from open to square at impact. That to me is the idea of squaring an axe to a tree.

I'm not anti-axis tilt for everyone. I just feel for me personally it's easier on my back when I can keep my spine more vertical.

[PreppySlapCut]

[quote name='Forged_Irons' timestamp='1390599069' post='8525517']
[quote name='Hstead' timestamp='1390597995' post='8525393']
Kenny Perry has his face approximately 3 degrees right of the target at impact and his path is 6 degrees right of his target on average according to TM. It has nothing to do with paralysis by analysis and everything to do with physics and what is actually happening at impact. You do not hit a draw with the face "closing" or "toe wrapping around" the ball. That has all been debunked a long time ago. The face determines the start line for the most part, over 80% and the path determines curve. This is really not new. But evidently Steve still doesn't understand it. Having a face 3 degrees left of the 6 degree rightward path is not glancing. As pin mentioned earlier, a 1.50 smash is a 1.50 smash regardless of path and face.
[/quote]
If perry didn't release it it wouldn't draw. He's hitting the ball to the right to draw it. His intended target line is to the right of the actual target. So his club face is actually square to his intended target line it appears open in relation to a straight target line. If he didn't release the toe the ball would go straight right. The opposite would be true for a fader of the ball, the face would appear closed at impact but square to the intended target line left of the actual target.
Do you understand now?
[/quote]
What you're saying is inaccurate. Shot shape is determined by the differential in path and face angle at the moment of impact (assuming centered impact). Closure rate does not effect ball flight in a given shot.

[Forged_Irons]

[quote name='Hstead' timestamp='1390599698' post='8525565']
Let me make sure what you are saying. So he is drawing the ball by "releasing the toe"? His face is square to his start line? And the toe closing causes it to draw? What does the path do?
[/quote]
You are correct in your understanding. The path is the the line the ball starts on. [quote name='PreppySlapCut' timestamp='1390614152' post='8526919']
[quote name='Forged_Irons' timestamp='1390599069' post='8525517']
[quote name='Hstead' timestamp='1390597995' post='8525393']
Kenny Perry has his face approximately 3 degrees right of the target at impact and his path is 6 degrees right of his target on average according to TM. It has nothing to do with paralysis by analysis and everything to do with physics and what is actually happening at impact. You do not hit a draw with the face "closing" or "toe wrapping around" the ball. That has all been debunked a long time ago. The face determines the start line for the most part, over 80% and the path determines curve. This is really not new. But evidently Steve still doesn't understand it. Having a face 3 degrees left of the 6 degree rightward path is not glancing. As pin mentioned earlier, a 1.50 smash is a 1.50 smash regardless of path and face.
[/quote]
If perry didn't release it it wouldn't draw. He's hitting the ball to the right to draw it. His intended target line is to the right of the actual target. So his club face is actually square to his intended target line it appears open in relation to a straight target line. If he didn't release the toe the ball would go straight right. The opposite would be true for a fader of the ball, the face would appear closed at impact but square to the intended target line left of the actual target.
Do you understand now?
[/quote]
What you're saying is inaccurate. Shot shape is determined by the differential in path and face angle at the moment of impact (assuming centered impact). Closure rate does not effect ball flight in a given shot.
[/quote]
Don't recall saying anything about closure rate. A draw is caused by spinning the ball slightly counterclockwise (if the clock were on the ground with 6 to 12 being the target line). This is achieved by starting the ball to the right and wrapping the club face around the ball through a full aggressive release. The fade is caused by starting the ball left of the target line and ideally releasing it very aggressively with the body so the club head stays open slightly longer (causing a clockwise spin on the ball) before it catches up with body. The latter is how Nicklaus and hogan hit the fade while releasing it fully.