The ballad of Jimmy Ballard...

[Hstead]

Maybe you can read the Japanese and understand better?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WvqFfSam4M4&list=PL79D151FEC98A6978&feature=share

[dairic]

[quote name='Hstead' timestamp='1390880318' post='8548255']
Again, he have no clue what you are talking about. Nicklaus said a million and one times that one of his most important fundamentals was that he kept his head dead still. You can try to throw out some BS about, presetting his head, which is totally Ballard speak because his head isn't freaking moving AT ALL, so he needs an excuse. Nicklaus rotated his chin slightly due to his eye dominance but it didn't move to his right. You are dead wrong again. Just because Ballard has no idea how the spine works. He has no idea what left tile, side bending is, which every good player did and still does. You do not "turn around center pivot point". Again, there has been numerous threads around here with the correct anatomical movement of the spine that is not up for debate, it is actually what is happening. If you would just realize you do not know nearly as much as you think you do in the end you might learn something. But with your know-it-all attitude you are going to learn nothing and instead make yourself look badly like you have already done.

There are tons of videos. How about you produce one where his head moves. Good luck I can post ones like this all day.
[media=]http://youtu.be/t7NOcf23IR8[/media]
[/quote]

Hstead how could this be possible??!! The man doesn't move his head, has two legs, and it would appear that he's turning with no reverse pivot. It's as if Forged_Irons doesn't know what the fuk he's talking about?

[Hstead]

But Jimmy said, I swear he did.........................................

[Hoganstriker]

Since I feel like throwing fuel on the fire-look at this his head stays stationary and then he backs up to get the tilt he needs for room...If it HAD moved right it could have remained and he would not have this backing up thing.
[media=]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a1dRdpt5QUA[/media]

So his head had to back up through it to get room why not let it fade back a touch as the right side is loaded and hit from there?
It's a valid point.
Hogan loaded up his head moved a bit right just like many other players. Some I am sure remain centered but a still head for sure isn't all it's cracked up to be unless its still at the right times...
IMO a bit of head to the right is a pretty classic move and is natural and athletic and nothing wrong with it. It's not a flaw. Hogan did it just like many many others.
Its a subtle thing that happens in many swings during the bs as the loading happens. Centered pivot is great also I got no qualms with it either it's just not the classic way.
Also don't forget Jimmy Ballard coached Rocco M. when he almost beat Tiger at the U.S. Open. I mean it's not like Ballards stuff is not proven and it's not like it changes. It works. I agree with everybody about the personality and marketing and all that but the core philosophy is quite solid.
You know Annika Sorenstam as well as Henrik Stenson were built up by the Swedes who basically copied and pasted Ballard as their golfing training info.
Annika and Henrik thats pretty seriously good consistent control and power. IMO both swings similar and both are based largely on Ballard.

[Hstead]

Hoganstriker- I am not saying a head that moves to the right a little is a flaw. I am saying that Ballard claiming "no great player" can do it is absolutely false. Jack kept his head still, especially with irons. He also said many times that when he was not playing well often his head moving was the culprit and he would go back and Jack Grout would hold onto his hair.

The point isn't whether or not you have to have a still head or one that moves some. I have my opinion. Many tour players these days are trying like heck to keep their heads still, and are doing exactly that. Ballard claims it cannot be done without a reverse tilt. The reason Ballard believes that if you watch his videos is because he has no idea what the spine is actually doing or how to do it. It is all about left side bending, not tilting toward the target. His overly simplistic idea of how the spine works is where Ballard is clueless. Sorry but that is fact.

[Hoganstriker]

Here's Ben...Head moves right during the load...

[media=]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OIGTAFuL2v0[/media]

I doubt Ballard was or is clueless as you say H. Thats a very extreme viewpoint. I think Ballards stuff hasn't changed much over the years. It continues to work at the highest level as well as for handicap golfers.
It seems you have it in either for Jimmy or Forged or both. It's no matter to me its just I cannot resist pointing out that Ballard made some good points and his method has stood the test of time without much change.
I think he has a point about loading its not about the spine or how it works its about athletic action in general like throwing or kicking or jumping or running.
George Knudson was a very famous guy who also was not big on the whole still head thing. I mean isn't that the cliche of every 20 mark? You hit a bad shot and they want to say "Lifted your head" or something like that. To me saying keep your head down is kind of a funny cliche more than anything.
Heres Knudson:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lRL686Yz-hw&list=PLB2A15FD09D455B3F&index=10

[vman]

Nicklaus used to set up with the centre of his head already preloaded to the right side and then also rotate his head to facilitate his turn.He didn't need it to move over there as it was already there…he also moved it to the left of his address position through impact particularly with iron shots.

[eightiron]

[quote name='Forged_Irons' timestamp='1390879336' post='8548149']
[quote name='JPGolf FL' timestamp='1390853124' post='8544717']
[quote name='PreppySlapCut' timestamp='1390852105' post='8544573']
When did I insinuate pieces matching should be credited to Ballard? I'm saying the reason his method works is because the pieces he implements fit together. Go pick up a copy of his book or spend some time around one of his disciples (or him) and you'll get a grasp of what he espouses.

He ABSOLUTELY teaches nothing but HIS method. Make no mistake about that.
[/quote]
I asked what else he teaches that is different than others and you led with "it's all about the pieces fitting together"........ I took that the wrong way I guess. You meant HIS pieces fitting together. And FWIW I have no interest in being near Ballard. He is dripping with "used car salesman" IMO. I just still have not heard what makes him so special to some, other than the untruths he spouts in the video I posted. That seems to be the common denominator. Maybe that appeals to people who have t-spine mobility issues so they think he is right??
[/quote]
Look, if you read a little about Ballard you'll find that he learned everything about the swing from Sam Byrd, who (Byrd) applied everything he learned about hitting a ball with a stick, in baseball, (from Babe Ruth himself) to golf and found only one difference. ONE. That the plane in baseball is flat and in golf it's tilted. (The plane, not the player). Byrd was the only baseball player to win on the golf tour, and actually came in second to Byron Nelson in a major. In case you haven't ever read these facts, Byrd is also responsible for teaching Hogan to transform his action to a more connected athletic swing in part by using the handkerchief under his left arm. This was the beginning of Hogan's meteoric rise. Ok now for the part you're really missing: Ballard (already a proficient amateur at the time) began working for Sam Byrd at his driving range and learned everything he espouses about swinging first hand from Byrd. Let me break it down for you. Babe Ruth > Sam Byrd > Hogan and Ballard. It's not difficult once you know these facts to see why Ballard has the utmost confidence that the fundamentals he teaches are THE fundamentals. THE fundamentals that apply in every athletic endeavor. So call that snake oil if you will but I think those with more discerning minds and superior judgement will ultimately see right through this. Personally I don't trust any professional that teaches that golf is different than other athletics and/or there are 1000s of good ways to swing (ie no rules) and needs to be addressed and taught as such. That to me is the epitome of snake oil.
Look, actually, there are tens of millions of ways to hit a ball, I'll give you that, but there's only one BEST way. The ATHLETIC way. That's what Jimmy teaches.
[/quote]

Jeff Martin did a lot of research on any Byrd , Hogan and Ballard connection and came to the conclusion it's all nonsense

[ej002]

Is that power golf photo Hogan or Sadlowski?

[dodger]

One of the biggest risks we have as golfers trying to learn the golf swing on the internet or by reading is having to rely on the written word and the different ways it can be interpreted. Ballard indicates the head moves in a swing. It does, whether it is Nicklaus, Hogan or Knudson the head moves because the forces on the body makes it move. Ballard does not say move the head, only that it moves. There is a difference. Nicklaus does not move his head on the backswing, however it does move around after impact due to the forces of the swing. Ballard simply advocates an athletic or athaletic for those in Alabama, motion. Peyton Manning does not worry about whether his head is still when he throws the ball long. It moves forward with momentum. If he tried keeping it in one place, it would not go anywhere. Ballard's teaching was groundbreaking because he was the only alternative at the time to the keep head still, take right side out of the swing, pull with the left stuff that golf digest pushed thru the 70's. The main issues that poster's critique Ballard for is he has a method he follows that he considers absolute and at least one poster had friends teach him the method from books and videos. Golf instructors are trying to make a living, to do so, they have to can their product somehow to sell it. Criticizing the words and packaging is more than appropriate. However, Ballard has proven himself as an instructor over and over. I have given my kids instruction from the golfing machine on the flat left wrist that they struggle with. It is simple stuff, they struggle because I am a crappy teacher so I stopped doing it. Teaching a golf swing is hard, harder than learning it. All students of golf have some thanks for guys like Ballard.

[mshills]

[quote name='Hoganstriker' timestamp='1390884144' post='8548637']
I doubt Ballard was or is clueless as you say H. Thats a very extreme viewpoint. I think Ballards stuff hasn't changed much over the years. It continues to work at the highest level as well as for handicap golfers.
It seems you have it in either for Jimmy or Forged or both. It's no matter to me its just I cannot resist pointing out that Ballard made some good points and his method has stood the test of time without much change.
I think he has a point about loading its not about the spine or how it works its about athletic action in general like throwing or kicking or jumping or running.
[/quote]

Of course Ballard has many good points. What I don't like (don't want to speak for Hstead) is his attitude that anything other than what he says cannot work, is wrong, or if you disagree you don't know what you are talking about.

There are lots of ways to produce great golf shots. Ballard has one, but it's the attitude and salesmanship that pisses a lot of people off, including me.

[stryper]

Saw a bit of Ballard influence on The Morning Drive today...Chris DiMarco was hitting balls into the simulator screen, and before every shot, he reached up and tucked his left shirt sleeve into his armpit. Earlier in the show, he was discussing how he likes to feel the connection there all the way through, even if it reaults in a slightly shorter swing. Interesting to see him put it into play even on the simulator. Don't know if DiMarco is a Ballard student or not, but obviously the connection thing was part of his approach to the golf swing.

[PreppySlapCut]

He was a solid ballstriker before his shoulder issues set him back a few years. Hit it really straight, and even though he wasn't long he was able to compete on tough courses because he could launch it.

[PreppySlapCut]

[quote name='eightiron' timestamp='1390921027' post='8550103']
Jeff Martin did a lot of research on any Byrd , Hogan and Ballard connection and came to the conclusion it's all nonsense
[/quote]
It's exactly the same as the Player step-through thing.

[bph7]

[quote name='PreppySlapCut' timestamp='1390942169' post='8552707']
[quote name='eightiron' timestamp='1390921027' post='8550103']
Jeff Martin did a lot of research on any Byrd , Hogan and Ballard connection and came to the conclusion it's all nonsense
[/quote]
It's exactly the same as the Player step-through thing.
[/quote]

Ok.... but is the thing about Sammy Byrd passing stuff onto Hogan and Ballard being involved true or not? Ballard is not being taken to task for his methods (at least not for the most part) but for what appears to be a web of mistruths to promote his ideas. I can't stand instructors that feel the need to do this. If they can teach, their teaching should speak for itself, there should be no need to make up stories...

[Forged_Irons]

[quote name='Hstead' timestamp='1390880318' post='8548255']
Again, he have no clue what you are talking about. Nicklaus said a million and one times that one of his most important fundamentals was that he kept his head dead still. You can try to throw out some BS about, presetting his head, which is totally Ballard speak because his head isn't freaking moving AT ALL, so he needs an excuse. Nicklaus rotated his chin slightly due to his eye dominance but it didn't move to his right. You are dead wrong again. Just because Ballard has no idea how the spine works. He has no idea what left tile, side bending is, which every good player did and still does. You do not "turn around center pivot point". Again, there has been numerous threads around here with the correct anatomical movement of the spine that is not up for debate, it is actually what is happening. If you would just realize you do not know nearly as much as you think you do in the end you might learn something. But with your know-it-all attitude you are going to learn nothing and instead make yourself look badly like you have already done.

There are tons of videos. How about you produce one where his head moves. Good luck I can post ones like this all day.
http://youtu.be/t7NOcf23IR8
[/quote]
Why so defensive? Could it be that your sacred cows are in doubt. Thou dost protest too loudly.

[psufish]

[quote name='Forged_Irons' timestamp='1391027450' post='8559717']
Why so defensive? Could it be that your sacred cows are in doubt. Thou dost protest too loudly.

[/quote]

Have you ever met Lane Holt? You guys should chat....for everyone else, here's a preview of that chat in video form:

[url="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ofV_iFBw2YE"]https://www.youtube....h?v=ofV_iFBw2YE[/url]

[Forged_Irons]

[quote name='Hstead' timestamp='1390880318' post='8548255']
Again, he have no clue what you are talking about. Nicklaus said a million and one times that one of his most important fundamentals was that he kept his head dead still. You can try to throw out some BS about, presetting his head, which is totally Ballard speak because his head isn't freaking moving AT ALL, so he needs an excuse. Nicklaus rotated his chin slightly due to his eye dominance but it didn't move to his right. You are dead wrong again. Just because Ballard has no idea how the spine works. He has no idea what left tile, side bending is, which every good player did and still does. You do not "turn around center pivot point". Again, there has been numerous threads around here with the correct anatomical movement of the spine that is not up for debate, it is actually what is happening. If you would just realize you do not know nearly as much as you think you do in the end you might learn something. But with your know-it-all attitude you are going to learn nothing and instead make yourself look badly like you have already done.

There are tons of videos. How about you produce one where his head moves. Good luck I can post ones like this all day.
http://youtu.be/t7NOcf23IR8
[/quote]

First off, producing a 1000 videos will not confirm or deny anything. There are tons of Hogan and Nicklaus swings that are taped that weren't filmed when they were playing well, they could have made a poor swing, and we don't even know if they struck the ball as they intended in any particular clip. I'm not saying that's the case here, or in any of the particular vids you posted, I'm just saying that we don't know with any certainty. Too many variables. These guys aren't machines and they didn't always make the swings they wanted to.


That said:
Forget the circle around Jack's head. Everyone is so addicted to the circle around the head BS. Lol
Take a straight edge and go down to the ground from Jack's nose. The center of his head is much closer to his left instep then you want to see. This presets his spine and weight to the right. This is not Ballard BS. You can clearly see his head moving forward through the ball right? This wouldn't be possible if he kept his head centered throughout the swing. If he tried to keep his head centered and still he'd reverse his weight and his head (weight) would have to move away from the target through the shot and he'd end up in a reverse c of some magnitude.

[Forged_Irons]

[quote name='mshills' timestamp='1390924522' post='8550493']
[quote name='Hoganstriker' timestamp='1390884144' post='8548637']
I doubt Ballard was or is clueless as you say H. Thats a very extreme viewpoint. I think Ballards stuff hasn't changed much over the years. It continues to work at the highest level as well as for handicap golfers.
It seems you have it in either for Jimmy or Forged or both. It's no matter to me its just I cannot resist pointing out that Ballard made some good points and his method has stood the test of time without much change.
I think he has a point about loading its not about the spine or how it works its about athletic action in general like throwing or kicking or jumping or running.
[/quote]

Of course Ballard has many good points. What I don't like (don't want to speak for Hstead) is his attitude that anything other than what he says cannot work, is wrong, or if you disagree you don't know what you are talking about.

There are lots of ways to produce great golf shots. Ballard has one, but it's the attitude and salesmanship that pisses a lot of people off, including me.
[/quote]

I don't understand why (even if that were the case) it pisses you off. What is the problem with someone being absolutely certain that their method is sound and works and is the best, most repeatable, and most athletic way (in their opinion) to do it. Why do folks find this certainty so repellant? Jimmy isn't trashing other instructors. Is it that he won't participate in all the backslapping and the "mutual admiration" BS that masquerades as humility. If you've seen it work for as many people as he has, you'd be pretty certain too.

So please, somebody tell me why is heresy for him to believe that there is an optimal athletic way to swing a club? I certainly don't want any part of an instructor that tells me "do it however it suits you" or "there's no right way to do it". May as well burn my money.

[Forged_Irons]

[quote name='psufish' timestamp='1391028904' post='8559872']
[quote name='Forged_Irons' timestamp='1391027450' post='8559717']
Why so defensive? Could it be that your sacred cows are in doubt. Thou dost protest too loudly.

[/quote]

Have you ever met Lane Holt? You guys should chat....for everyone else, here's a preview of that chat in video form:

[url="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ofV_iFBw2YE"]https://www.youtube....h?v=ofV_iFBw2YE[/url]
[/quote]
Not understanding the reference so I'll just assume this is some sort of attempt at levity.

[Forged_Irons]

[quote name='bph7' timestamp='1390943088' post='8552825']
[quote name='PreppySlapCut' timestamp='1390942169' post='8552707']
[quote name='eightiron' timestamp='1390921027' post='8550103']
Jeff Martin did a lot of research on any Byrd , Hogan and Ballard connection and came to the conclusion it's all nonsense
[/quote]
It's exactly the same as the Player step-through thing.
[/quote]

Ok.... but is the thing about Sammy Byrd passing stuff onto Hogan and Ballard being involved true or not? Ballard is not being taken to task for his methods (at least not for the most part) but for what appears to be a web of mistruths to promote his ideas. I can't stand instructors that feel the need to do this. If they can teach, their teaching should speak for itself, there should be no need to make up stories...
[/quote]
Read this-
http://talesfromthebunker.com/tag/sam-byrd/
It's just a primer on Byrd and Ballard. If that piques your interest do your own research to verify. It's simply the truth. Not snake oil or used car salesmanship.

[bph7]

[quote name='Forged_Irons' timestamp='1391029597' post='8559934']
[quote name='mshills' timestamp='1390924522' post='8550493']
[quote name='Hoganstriker' timestamp='1390884144' post='8548637']
I doubt Ballard was or is clueless as you say H. Thats a very extreme viewpoint. I think Ballards stuff hasn't changed much over the years. It continues to work at the highest level as well as for handicap golfers.
It seems you have it in either for Jimmy or Forged or both. It's no matter to me its just I cannot resist pointing out that Ballard made some good points and his method has stood the test of time without much change.
I think he has a point about loading its not about the spine or how it works its about athletic action in general like throwing or kicking or jumping or running.
[/quote]

Of course Ballard has many good points. What I don't like (don't want to speak for Hstead) is his attitude that anything other than what he says cannot work, is wrong, or if you disagree you don't know what you are talking about.

There are lots of ways to produce great golf shots. Ballard has one, but it's the attitude and salesmanship that pisses a lot of people off, including me.
[/quote]

I don't understand why (even if that were the case) it pisses you off. What is the problem with someone being absolutely certain that their method is sound and works and is the best, most repeatable, and most athletic way (in their opinion) to do it. Why do folks find this certainty so repellant? Jimmy isn't trashing other instructors. Is it that he won't participate in all the backslapping and the "mutual admiration" BS that masquerades as humility. If you've seen it work for as many people as he has, you'd be pretty certain too.

So please, somebody tell me why is heresy for him to believe that there is an optimal athletic way to swing a club? I certainly don't want any part of an instructor that tells me "do it however it suits you" or "there's no right way to do it". May as well burn my money.
[/quote]

In all honesty, do you really want an explanation? Won't you just argue with whatever we say? Is it really that important to you to get to the bottom of this issue? If you had read all of the posts, you'd see that the issues go much deeper than Mr Ballards supposed certainty with his method. The bigger issue is that there is NO, none, zero evidence to support this Sammy Byrd to Hogan nonsense. But you don't want to engage in that discussion, you will just say it's true because jimmy said so. That's fine for you, but not good enough for all of us. Seems like Ballards methods are working out for you. Good, keep improving and enjoy the game. You can do so without having to constantly defend the deceptive bs that ballard says to make his own ideas look better.

As for why we care that someone is being deceptive, I said this earlier in the thread I believe but I will repeat it: some people are ok with deception/over the top marketing bs as long as they are ultimately satisfied with the work, but others do not wish to do business with or promote those who do such things to further their credentials. You sound like you are in the first group, while a lot of others in this thread are in the second. Nothing wrong with either group, but figured that since you are so desperate for an explanation, I'd help you out. Although my guess is that you will not accept the explanation, only to further obfuscate what is really going on, and come back with another post that doesn't address the REAL issue (which is the truth of Ballard's Sam Byrd story)...

[bph7]

[quote name='Forged_Irons' timestamp='1391030338' post='8560004']
[quote name='bph7' timestamp='1390943088' post='8552825']
[quote name='PreppySlapCut' timestamp='1390942169' post='8552707']
[quote name='eightiron' timestamp='1390921027' post='8550103']
Jeff Martin did a lot of research on any Byrd , Hogan and Ballard connection and came to the conclusion it's all nonsense
[/quote]
It's exactly the same as the Player step-through thing.
[/quote]

Ok.... but is the thing about Sammy Byrd passing stuff onto Hogan and Ballard being involved true or not? Ballard is not being taken to task for his methods (at least not for the most part) but for what appears to be a web of mistruths to promote his ideas. I can't stand instructors that feel the need to do this. If they can teach, their teaching should speak for itself, there should be no need to make up stories...
[/quote]
Read this-
http://talesfromthebunker.com/tag/sam-byrd/
It's just a primer on Byrd and Ballard. If that piques your interest do your own research to verify. It's simply the truth. Not snake oil or used car salesmanship.
[/quote]

I see what the words on that screen are, but since Ballards credibility is at issue here, I'm not sure what his own words add to truthfulness of the story. I do know that I've read a lot about hogan and never heard about Byrd once. So, if Byrd was really important to Hogan, hogan did a good job of hiding it. Maybe that was his "secret"?

[Hstead]

Forged, evidently you didn;t watch the video, which happens to be Jacks instruction video, where he didn't draw a circle but rather a straight line right down the middle. Let's also not pay any attention that Jack says he is trying to do just that since that would be completely hypocritical to argue at one point that "Jack said ..................." and then ignore it now.

Please show us one video where Jack is moving his head well to the right like Ballard claims he does.

Then, I will show you three dozen of the best Tour players right now and from the past that do not move their heads to the right even thou Ballard claims it cannot be done. Or of course you get the old "in an athletic swing" non-sense. Tiger Woods is pretty dang athletic. He used to move his head well to the right. Now he doesn't. Not only that he is working on keeping it more still.

And then there is your claim that Ballard doesn't bash other instructors. Are you serious? Do I need to start posting videos of Ballard claiming everyone is copying him but doing it wrong and making fun? Or do I need to link to your "Expert" Wozeniak saying horrendous things about Foley who happens to be making a heck of a lot more money than Ballard or Wozeniak combined from Tour players paying him for his advice?

[Forged_Irons]

Correction: meant Nicklaus' right instep on previous post. Sure you knew that though.

[Forged_Irons]

[quote name='bph7' timestamp='1391030584' post='8560020']
[quote name='Forged_Irons' timestamp='1391029597' post='8559934']
[quote name='mshills' timestamp='1390924522' post='8550493']
[quote name='Hoganstriker' timestamp='1390884144' post='8548637']
I doubt Ballard was or is clueless as you say H. Thats a very extreme viewpoint. I think Ballards stuff hasn't changed much over the years. It continues to work at the highest level as well as for handicap golfers.
It seems you have it in either for Jimmy or Forged or both. It's no matter to me its just I cannot resist pointing out that Ballard made some good points and his method has stood the test of time without much change.
I think he has a point about loading its not about the spine or how it works its about athletic action in general like throwing or kicking or jumping or running.
[/quote]


Of course Ballard has many good points. What I don't like (don't want to speak for Hstead) is his attitude that anything other than what he says cannot work, is wrong, or if you disagree you don't know what you are talking about.

There are lots of ways to produce great golf shots. Ballard has one, but it's the attitude and salesmanship that pisses a lot of people off, including me.
[/quote]

I don't understand why (even if that were the case) it pisses you off. What is the problem with someone being absolutely certain that their method is sound and works and is the best, most repeatable, and most athletic way (in their opinion) to do it. Why do folks find this certainty so repellant? Jimmy isn't trashing other instructors. Is it that he won't participate in all the backslapping and the "mutual admiration" BS that masquerades as humility. If you've seen it work for as many people as he has, you'd be pretty certain too.

So please, somebody tell me why is heresy for him to believe that there is an optimal athletic way to swing a club? I certainly don't want any part of an instructor that tells me "do it however it suits you" or "there's no right way to do it". May as well burn my money.
[/quote]

In all honesty, do you really want an explanation? Won't you just argue with whatever we say? Is it really that important to you to get to the bottom of this issue? If you had read all of the posts, you'd see that the issues go much deeper than Mr Ballards supposed certainty with his method. The bigger issue is that there is NO, none, zero evidence to support this Sammy Byrd to Hogan nonsense. But you don't want to engage in that discussion, you will just say it's true because jimmy said so. That's fine for you, but not good enough for all of us. Seems like Ballards methods are working out for you. Good, keep improving and enjoy the game. You can do so without having to constantly defend the deceptive bs that ballard says to make his own ideas look better.

As for why we care that someone is being deceptive, I said this earlier in the thread I believe but I will repeat it: some people are ok with deception/over the top marketing bs as long as they are ultimately satisfied with the work, but others do not wish to do business with or promote those who do such things to further their credentials. You sound like you are in the first group, while a lot of others in this thread are in the second. Nothing wrong with either group, but figured that since you are so desperate for an explanation, I'd help you out. Although my guess is that you will not accept the explanation, only to further obfuscate what is really going on, and come back with another post that doesn't address the REAL issue (which is the truth of Ballard's Sam Byrd story)...
[/quote]
Suspicious minds I suppose. I appreciate the response. The only thing I still fail to see is why you feel that this is some big lie.
All Ballard is trying to say via e link to Byrd, and Hogan is that he didn't invent this stuff. He's not trying to establish credibility, just telling the truth.

[Forged_Irons]

[quote name='Hstead' timestamp='1391034603' post='8560462']
Forged, evidently you didn;t watch the video, which happens to be Jacks instruction video, where he didn't draw a circle but rather a straight line right down the middle. Let's also not pay any attention that Jack says he is trying to do just that since that would be completely hypocritical to argue at one point that "Jack said ..................." and then ignore it now.

Please show us one video where Jack is moving his head well to the right like Ballard claims he does.

Then, I will show you three dozen of the best Tour players right now and from the past that do not move their heads to the right even thou Ballard claims it cannot be done. Or of course you get the old "in an athletic swing" non-sense. Tiger Woods is pretty dang athletic. He used to move his head well to the right. Now he doesn't. Not only that he is working on keeping it more still.

And then there is your claim that Ballard doesn't bash other instructors. Are you serious? Do I need to start posting videos of Ballard claiming everyone is copying him but doing it wrong and making fun? Or do I need to link to your "Expert" Wozeniak saying horrendous things about Foley who happens to be making a heck of a lot more money than Ballard or Wozeniak combined from Tour players paying him for his advice?
[/quote]
1)Ok, I can see where your mind is set. Jack Nicklaus also said Jack Grout used to hold his hair to keep him over the ball. Jack Grout himself has said he never did any such thing.
2) And yes you can play golf by holding your head over the ball but Jimmy simply says it's not the best way.
3) I've had a lesson with Jimmy Ballard. Have you had a lesson with Sean Foley?
4) Tiger is a shadow of the player he used to be in 2000 when he moved into his right side better. All the stats back this up.

[Forged_Irons]

[quote name='bph7' timestamp='1391030765' post='8560038']
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[quote name='PreppySlapCut' timestamp='1390942169' post='8552707']
[quote name='eightiron' timestamp='1390921027' post='8550103']
Jeff Martin did a lot of research on any Byrd , Hogan and Ballard connection and came to the conclusion it's all nonsense
[/quote]
It's exactly the same as the Player step-through thing.
[/quote]

Ok.... but is the thing about Sammy Byrd passing stuff onto Hogan and Ballard being involved true or not? Ballard is not being taken to task for his methods (at least not for the most part) but for what appears to be a web of mistruths to promote his ideas. I can't stand instructors that feel the need to do this. If they can teach, their teaching should speak for itself, there should be no need to make up stories...
[/quote]
Read this-
http://talesfromthebunker.com/tag/sam-byrd/
It's just a primer on Byrd and Ballard. If that piques your interest do your own research to verify. It's simply the truth. Not snake oil or used car salesmanship.
[/quote]

I see what the words on that screen are, but since Ballards credibility is at issue here, I'm not sure what his own words add to truthfulness of the story. I do know that I've read a lot about hogan and never heard about Byrd once. So, if Byrd was really important to Hogan, hogan did a good job of hiding it. Maybe that was his "secret"?
[/quote]
Maybe it was! Have you heard Hogan give credit to anyone? (Besides Henry Piccard for a grip change?)

[Forged_Irons]

[quote name='eightiron' timestamp='1390921027' post='8550103']
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[quote name='JPGolf FL' timestamp='1390853124' post='8544717']
[quote name='PreppySlapCut' timestamp='1390852105' post='8544573']
When did I insinuate pieces matching should be credited to Ballard? I'm saying the reason his method works is because the pieces he implements fit together. Go pick up a copy of his book or spend some time around one of his disciples (or him) and you'll get a grasp of what he espouses.

He ABSOLUTELY teaches nothing but HIS method. Make no mistake about that.
[/quote]
I asked what else he teaches that is different than others and you led with "it's all about the pieces fitting together"........ I took that the wrong way I guess. You meant HIS pieces fitting together. And FWIW I have no interest in being near Ballard. He is dripping with "used car salesman" IMO. I just still have not heard what makes him so special to some, other than the untruths he spouts in the video I posted. That seems to be the common denominator. Maybe that appeals to people who have t-spine mobility issues so they think he is right??
[/quote]
Look, if you read a little about Ballard you'll find that he learned everything about the swing from Sam Byrd, who (Byrd) applied everything he learned about hitting a ball with a stick, in baseball, (from Babe Ruth himself) to golf and found only one difference. ONE. That the plane in baseball is flat and in golf it's tilted. (The plane, not the player). Byrd was the only baseball player to win on the golf tour, and actually came in second to Byron Nelson in a major. In case you haven't ever read these facts, Byrd is also responsible for teaching Hogan to transform his action to a more connected athletic swing in part by using the handkerchief under his left arm. This was the beginning of Hogan's meteoric rise. Ok now for the part you're really missing: Ballard (already a proficient amateur at the time) began working for Sam Byrd at his driving range and learned everything he espouses about swinging first hand from Byrd. Let me break it down for you. Babe Ruth > Sam Byrd > Hogan and Ballard. It's not difficult once you know these facts to see why Ballard has the utmost confidence that the fundamentals he teaches are THE fundamentals. THE fundamentals that apply in every athletic endeavor. So call that snake oil if you will but I think those with more discerning minds and superior judgement will ultimately see right through this. Personally I don't trust any professional that teaches that golf is different than other athletics and/or there are 1000s of good ways to swing (ie no rules) and needs to be addressed and taught as such. That to me is the epitome of snake oil.
Look, actually, there are tens of millions of ways to hit a ball, I'll give you that, but there's only one BEST way. The ATHLETIC way. That's what Jimmy teaches.
[/quote]

Jeff Martin did a lot of research on any Byrd , Hogan and Ballard connection and came to the conclusion it's all nonsense
[/quote]
What evidence do you need? Ballard's W-2s from Byrd's driving range in Alabama?

[pinhigh27]

[quote name='Forged_Irons' timestamp='1391039299' post='8560890']
[quote name='Hstead' timestamp='1391034603' post='8560462']
Forged, evidently you didn;t watch the video, which happens to be Jacks instruction video, where he didn't draw a circle but rather a straight line right down the middle. Let's also not pay any attention that Jack says he is trying to do just that since that would be completely hypocritical to argue at one point that "Jack said ..................." and then ignore it now.

Please show us one video where Jack is moving his head well to the right like Ballard claims he does.

Then, I will show you three dozen of the best Tour players right now and from the past that do not move their heads to the right even thou Ballard claims it cannot be done. Or of course you get the old "in an athletic swing" non-sense. Tiger Woods is pretty dang athletic. He used to move his head well to the right. Now he doesn't. Not only that he is working on keeping it more still.

And then there is your claim that Ballard doesn't bash other instructors. Are you serious? Do I need to start posting videos of Ballard claiming everyone is copying him but doing it wrong and making fun? Or do I need to link to your "Expert" Wozeniak saying horrendous things about Foley who happens to be making a heck of a lot more money than Ballard or Wozeniak combined from Tour players paying him for his advice?
[/quote]
1)Ok, I can see where your mind is set. Jack Nicklaus also said Jack Grout used to hold his hair to keep him over the ball. Jack Grout himself has said he never did any such thing.
2) And yes you can play golf by holding your head over the ball but Jimmy simply says it's not the best way.
3) I've had a lesson with Jimmy Ballard. Have you had a lesson with Sean Foley?
4) Tiger is a shadow of the player he used to be in 2000 when he moved into his right side better. All the stats back this up.
[/quote]

How can you possibly compare a guy post injuries and traumatic life events to a guy fresh on tour, world at his feet rearing to go?