How many scratch players are TRUELY scratch players ????

[bogeypro]

[quote name='xxjonesyxx' timestamp='1388739182' post='8389587']
I posted this somewhere before about how hard it is to get to scratch in the UK/ Europe system. Plus only competition rounds count.
The example below is a 5 handicapper shooting a stretch of 'par' rounds in a row.

A 5 shoots par (5 shots under hcp 0.1 x 5) so he's now a 4.5
shoots par again (5 shots under hcp 0.1 x 5) so now he's a 4
shoots par again (4 shots under hcp 0.1 x 4) so now he's a 3.6
shoots par again (4 shots under hcp 0.1 x 4) so now he's a 3.2
shoots par again (3shots under hcp 0.1 x 3) so now he's a 2.9
shoots par again (3shots under hcp 0.1 x 3) so now he's a 2.6
shoots par again (3shots under hcp 0.1 x 3) so now he's a 2.3
shoots par again (2 shots under hcp 0.1 x 2) so now he's a 2.1
shoots par again (2 shots under hcp 0.1 x 2) so now he's a 1.9
shoots par again (2 shots under hcp 0.1 x 2) so now he's a 1.7
shoots par again (2 shots under hcp 0.1 x 2) so now he's a 1.5

And so on, so that's 11 rounds of par in a row and still playing off 2!!!

(When i say par i mean CSS to be exact)

I have read that there is approx a 4 shot difference between handicaps over here in US ones. So someone of 0 in the states would be a 4 capper here, and would shoot the odd 80's round quite often in my experience.


Neil
[/quote]

Using the handicap calculations at USGA: [url="http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Handicap-System-Manual/Rule-10/"]http://www.usga.org/...Manual/Rule-10/[/url]

Assumptions:
1. Using my home course - Robert Trent Jones Hampton Cove, Highlands course, from the back tees (which is where a 5 would play), rating/slope =75.7/136
2. Round the course rating up from 75.7 to 76 so that we can have even numbers
3. Assuming that the player has posted enough scores to use these 10 scores as the lowest 10 scores.
4. This is a USGA handicap scratch golfer

This person's USGA handicap would be in the -2.8 range.

****Please keep in mind that accoring the guy who invenvted the USGA handicap system, the odds of a USGA handicap scratch player posting these 10 scores in relation to their handicap is pretty much a big fat ZERO (source: [url="http://www.popeofslope.com/magazine/beat_your_handicap.html"]http://www.popeofslo...r_handicap.html[/url] )

[xxjonesyxx]

Thanks for doing the comparison figures bogeypro. So there would be a five shot difference, but Im guessing your course is rated pretty difficult at 75.5 which has probably widened the gap a little more,

Neil

[Craglyboy]

[quote name='xxjonesyxx' timestamp='1388827381' post='8395837']
Thanks for doing the comparison figures bogeypro. So there would be a five shot difference, but Im guessing your course is rated pretty difficult at 75.5 which has probably widened the gap a little more,

Neil
[/quote]

From what other posters have said with regards to their home course ratings it doesn't seem obscene, even then I would say your CSS is out for most courses I play CSS is usually 1 or 2 under par which would widen the gap even further.

[idriveahonda]

I think it's fair to say most people in the US Handicapping system TRAVEL 2-5 strokes higher than on their home course.

An accurate handicap would be ~25% of rounds played at home course, mixed in with travel golf.

[BrianL99]

[quote name='idriveahonda' timestamp='1388866679' post='8397915']
I think it's fair to say most people in the US Handicapping system TRAVEL 2-5 strokes higher than on their home course.

An accurate handicap would be ~25% of rounds played at home course, mixed in with travel golf.
[/quote]

I'm guessing even higher than that.

I'm curious ... at +3.4 how does your handicap travel, generally? I would think it's damn tough to shoot 4 under at a course you don't know? Then again, most guys I know with handicaps as low as yours, typically play a lot more than just your "home course", which I suppose helps?

[farmer]

This will show my age, but when I was young, (shortly after the earth cooled) being a scratch golfer meant you brought it in around par or better, whether at home or on the road.

[Bonesaw]

This is a good thread. . A one just as good would be "How many 10 caps are truly scratch golfers?" Haha. Anyways I personally have more trouble shooting a 69 on a 69 rated course than a 75 on a 75 rated course. I'm sure there are different players who would find it easier to shoot the cr on the 69.

[bogeypro]

I with bone saw. I don't usually play well on short "small" courses. I prefer what I call "big boy" courses - long, tough, demanding courses. They seem to make me focus more. Yep, it is all mental with me.

[RRFireblade]

[quote name='farmer' timestamp='1389063056' post='8412835']
This will show my age, but when I was young, (shortly after the earth cooled) being a scratch golfer meant you brought it in around par or better, whether at home or on the road.
[/quote]

Pretty much. As a kid, scratch basically meant you didn't "need" a handicap.

Was like getting kicked in the nuts growing up and finding out that maybe you even had to give strokes back to the field!

[tinytim]

[quote name='bogeypro' timestamp='1389072644' post='8413789']
I with bone saw. I don't usually play well on short "small" courses. I prefer what I call "big boy" courses - long, tough, demanding courses. They seem to make me focus more. Yep, it is all mental with me.
[/quote]

your shortgame sucks, would also be opinion

[JustTheTips]

Both systems have flaws. Google around and you will find complaints about sandbagging and vanity caps with both systems. People that want to cheat will cheat. The UK system takes a lot longer to respond to changes. You can view that is a good or a bad thing. Personally I think it leads to unintentional vanity caps and sandbagging.

[quote name='ben w' timestamp='1388693905' post='8386357']
[quote name='bogeypro' timestamp='1388690198' post='8385921']
[quote name='ben w' timestamp='1388680839' post='8384871']
from all this discussion, I like the UK system better. The USGA indexes change quickly, and can be manipulated all too well. Need to increase your handicap by 5-10 strokes for the upcoming member/guest net tournament? No problem. Need to get down to a 1.0 index to play in USGA qualifiers? No problem.
[/quote]

This is not true. As your handicap goes down, it becomes harder to make it go down further. I got to 6 handicap fairly quickly, but it took alot of good scores to go down to even a 3. It took alot more to get to 1 and then 0. I was once at +1, but it came up fairly quickly. Right now, I could go out and post a 100 or even a 59 and my handicap wouldn't budge because of the number of scores I have in there. It would kick them out and wouldn't use them to calculate.

Most scratch players that I know are very consistent. Their scores won't vary but maybe 2 strokes up or down. It would take alot of scores at 2 strokes under your handicap to get it to move 0.1.
[/quote]

I hear what you're saying, but what I was getting at is that the USGA system is easier to manipulate. Knowing that the best 10 rounds of the last 20 handed in are what computes your handicap, you can turn in a bunch of high scores consecutively, or omit low ones. I have seen guys at clubs go from a 8 handicap to a 13.5 in a couple months leading up to a big event. It strikes me that handicaps progress much slower in the UK and thus the incentive to manipulate it is lost. I have also heard that in many places you are required to hand in scores in tournaments, which are of course more closely monitored than a casual round by yourself or with friends.
[/quote]

[idriveahonda]

[quote name='BrianL99' timestamp='1389013551' post='8407197']
[quote name='idriveahonda' timestamp='1388866679' post='8397915']
I think it's fair to say most people in the US Handicapping system TRAVEL 2-5 strokes higher than on their home course.

An accurate handicap would be ~25% of rounds played at home course, mixed in with travel golf.
[/quote]

I'm guessing even higher than that.

I'm curious ... at +3.4 how does your handicap travel, generally? I would think it's damn tough to shoot 4 under at a course you don't know? Then again, most guys I know with handicaps as low as yours, typically play a lot more than just your "home course", which I suppose helps?
[/quote]

RRFireblade would be another good person to ask.

Again, remember…+3.4 doesn't mean I'm going to shoot 4-under…don't fall into that group of people making that assumption

I typically play 3-5 courses on the regular, so it's a fair mix.

I don't shoot a bunch of 68-69 on the regular. I typically mix in 64-65-66 with numerous 71-72-73. Depends on the putter that came that day.

[dpb5031]

Interesting topic. I've been down to scratch (0 HC, USGA HC system) on just a couple of occasions over the past three seasons since learning the Slicefixer release (thanks Geoff Jones). I'm usually in the 2-4 range (course HC slope 134). When I do get down there it seems like it's extraordinarily difficult to play to it in a handicapped match against the guys I play with. The golf group at my club also keeps everyone's Stableford scores using your top 5 scores out of 10 to determine your quota, plus we adjust anyone's score to 80% of quota if they tank it for the day. It works out pretty well, and if you play most rounds with the group your HC and point quota are usually very close. When I've been down to scratch HC my point quota with the group is usually right around 36.

I'm with the crowd that detests sandbaggers and couldn't care less about the vanity caps unless I somehow draw one as a partner. When my HC is down to zero it is nearly impossible to compete with the guys at my club who are 10-13 handicaps. These guys can really play. Our course is par 71 with 5 par threes (a few really difficult) and I believe that Equitable Stroke Control helps to keep guys in this HC range artificially inflated. We see it when we compare their course HC to our Stableford point quota. They can post a 7 on the par 3s for HC purposes, and do. I know statistically based on the mathematics of the HC system that the lower HC is supposed to have the edge heads up against a handicap player at 100% HC, but I haven't typically found that to be the case in real life.

It's also very difficult for a guy with my typical HC range (0-4) to stay down at scratch. Different for a guy whose range is (+2-2). In my case it comes down to how hard I'm working on my game at the given time. If you do what I did this season and basically neglect your game, go straight from the car to the 1st tee, and fail to work hard on your short game, it becomes real easy to double bogie a couple holes early in the round and end up shooting 77. I really need to work at it to stay down at scratch, but when it's been that low my game has traveled reasonably well and I've shot some good scores in competition and on away courses. There's very little room for error out there if you're going to be a true scratch player.

[lumberman2462]

Handicap system here in the US is pretty interesting. I have an example of a guy that can flat out play. He's 70 years old and won quite a few tournaments back in the 1960s - Not Pro...he's always been an amateur.

He plays tees at my club that are about 6200-6300 yards and our course rating is 75.[i]something [/i]from the tips which are 7396 yards. It's a tough track.

He won't always shoot even par from his tees but he rarely shoots above 76-77. His handicap is still 0.[i]something[/i].

Take him back to the tips and the best score he's ever shot is 83. It's just too long for him back there.

So what's his handicap???

I know this - We've got some long bomber types that play the tips and will shoot 73,74,75 from the tips that don't want any piece of this guy from his tees.

[idriveahonda]

[quote name='dpb5031' timestamp='1389109840' post='8415289']
Interesting topic. I've been down to scratch (0 HC, USGA HC system) on just a couple of occasions over the past three seasons since learning the Slicefixer release (thanks Geoff Jones). I'm usually in the 2-4 range (course HC slope 134). When I do get down there it seems like it's extraordinarily difficult to play to it in a handicapped match against the guys I play with. The golf group at my club also keeps everyone's Stableford scores using your top 5 scores out of 10 to determine your quota, plus we adjust anyone's score to 80% of quota if they tank it for the day. It works out pretty well, and if you play most rounds with the group your HC and point quota are usually very close. When I've been down to scratch HC my point quota with the group is usually right around 36.

I'm with the crowd that detests sandbaggers and couldn't care less about the vanity caps unless I somehow draw one as a partner. When my HC is down to zero it is nearly impossible to compete with the guys at my club who are 10-13 handicaps. These guys can really play. Our course is par 71 with 5 par threes (a few really difficult) and I believe that Equitable Stroke Control helps to keep guys in this HC range artificially inflated. We see it when we compare their course HC to our Stableford point quota. They can post a 7 on the par 3s for HC purposes, and do. I know statistically based on the mathematics of the HC system that the lower HC is supposed to have the edge heads up against a handicap player at 100% HC, but I haven't typically found that to be the case in real life.

It's also very difficult for a guy with my typical HC range (0-4) to stay down at scratch. Different for a guy whose range is (+2-2). In my case it comes down to how hard I'm working on my game at the given time. If you do what I did this season and basically neglect your game, go straight from the car to the 1st tee, and fail to work hard on your short game, it becomes real easy to double bogie a couple holes early in the round and end up shooting 77. I really need to work at it to stay down at scratch, but when it's been that low my game has traveled reasonably well and I've shot some good scores in competition and on away courses. There's very little room for error out there if you're going to be a true scratch player.
[/quote]

How do you guys play Stableford?

If it is 1-bogey, 2-par, 3-birdie, 4-eagle…then it is completely unfair. I've had heated arguments with chairmen before, as that SEVERELY handicaps (oh the irony) the better player. To break even @ 36 points you have to shoot even par…which isn't technically your "handicap".

The only way I'll play Stableford is if the points are doubled as the score gets better:
1-bogey, 2-par, 4-birdie, 8-eagle

[dpb5031]

[quote name='idriveahonda' timestamp='1389110879' post='8415391']
[quote name='dpb5031' timestamp='1389109840' post='8415289']
Interesting topic. I've been down to scratch (0 HC, USGA HC system) on just a couple of occasions over the past three seasons since learning the Slicefixer release (thanks Geoff Jones). I'm usually in the 2-4 range (course HC slope 134). When I do get down there it seems like it's extraordinarily difficult to play to it in a handicapped match against the guys I play with. The golf group at my club also keeps everyone's Stableford scores using your top 5 scores out of 10 to determine your quota, plus we adjust anyone's score to 80% of quota if they tank it for the day. It works out pretty well, and if you play most rounds with the group your HC and point quota are usually very close. When I've been down to scratch HC my point quota with the group is usually right around 36.

I'm with the crowd that detests sandbaggers and couldn't care less about the vanity caps unless I somehow draw one as a partner. When my HC is down to zero it is nearly impossible to compete with the guys at my club who are 10-13 handicaps. These guys can really play. Our course is par 71 with 5 par threes (a few really difficult) and I believe that Equitable Stroke Control helps to keep guys in this HC range artificially inflated. We see it when we compare their course HC to our Stableford point quota. They can post a 7 on the par 3s for HC purposes, and do. I know statistically based on the mathematics of the HC system that the lower HC is supposed to have the edge heads up against a handicap player at 100% HC, but I haven't typically found that to be the case in real life.

It's also very difficult for a guy with my typical HC range (0-4) to stay down at scratch. Different for a guy whose range is (+2-2). In my case it comes down to how hard I'm working on my game at the given time. If you do what I did this season and basically neglect your game, go straight from the car to the 1st tee, and fail to work hard on your short game, it becomes real easy to double bogie a couple holes early in the round and end up shooting 77. I really need to work at it to stay down at scratch, but when it's been that low my game has traveled reasonably well and I've shot some good scores in competition and on away courses. There's very little room for error out there if you're going to be a true scratch player.
[/quote]

How do you guys play Stableford?

If it is 1-bogey, 2-par, 3-birdie, 4-eagle…then it is completely unfair. I've had heated arguments with chairmen before, as that SEVERELY handicaps (oh the irony) the better player. To break even @ 36 points you have to shoot even par…which isn't technically your "handicap".

The only way I'll play Stableford is if the points are doubled as the score gets better:
1-bogey, 2-par, 4-birdie, 8-eagle
[/quote]

We play 1 for bogie, 2 for par, 3 for birdie and 5 for eagle...so eagles pay a bonus. I can tell you unequivocally based on over ten years of data that it is a fair system for all players. Our chairman keeps a spreadsheet that tracks all sorts of statistics and he publishes them bi-annually.

Also, there are 2 facets to our game, which is a $40 per round throw-in. $20 goes to a 50% net scats pool (full hc but 1/2 shots on stroke holes), and $20 goes to the Stableford competition where we pay multiple places from 1-4 depending on how many competitors we have on a given day.

The chairman's spreadsheet automatically tracks stats like most point $$ won, % in the money, ROI, most scat $$, ROI for scats, total combined $$ and combined ROI. The distribution of Stableford point $$ shows that the system does not favor the high or low HC player. In fact, there is a slight bias toward the lower HCs winning more.

I think the difference relative to the situation you describe is that we play exclusively off of our own data in the group. We are not converting a player's USGA HC to a quota unless we have a guest, although in most cases the number should be close.

[idriveahonda]

My reasoning behind it:

It is easier for a person who shoots 85 (let's call him a 13-handicap for ease…) to shoot 79 (and go +6 on points) then it is for a scratch golfer to shoot 66 (and go +6 on points)…again all things being equal.

It's a rock and a hard place.

[dpb5031]

[quote name='idriveahonda' timestamp='1389112911' post='8415629']
My reasoning behind it:

It is easier for a person who shoots 85 (let's call him a 13-handicap for ease…) to shoot 79 (and go +6 on points) then it is for a scratch golfer to shoot 66 (and go +6 on points)…again all things being equal.

It's a rock and a hard place.
[/quote]

That's why we play to our quotas in the group. There's a history there for each player. I get your point though, it still seems easier for a guy with a quota of 23 to make 28 and be plus 5, whereas the 36 quota player would have to make 41 points which would equate to a five under par round. In my experience, it seems like my odds of winning with our group are better for me on really difficult days...when the wind is blowing or when the greens are really fast with difficult hole locations. There are quite a few times throughout the year where being +1 on your points or even against your points will win first place.

[mark m]

idrive:

Are you talking stableford points based on NET scores?

A modified stableford point system is a huge advantage to higher handicap players in a net competiton. They can and do tend to make more net birdes, net eagles, net double eagles, etc., then low handicaps - [b][u]and[/u][/b] - they have little to no downside for poor scores on holes. The only way to make this somewhat fair would be to have corresponding big negative points for bad holes. But that takes one of the best things about stableford out of play - the ability to pick up on bad holes. Modified points work best in gross competitions in my experience. Please explain.

[idriveahonda]

[quote name='mark m' timestamp='1389116986' post='8416137']
idrive:

Are you talking stableford points based on NET scores?

A modified stableford point system is a huge advantage to higher handicap players in a net competiton. They can and do tend to make more net birdes, net eagles, net double eagles, etc., then low handicaps - [b][u]and[/u][/b] - they have little to no downside for poor scores on holes. The only way to make this somewhat fair would be to have corresponding big negative points for bad holes. But that takes one of the best things about stableford out of play - the ability to pick up on bad holes. Modified points work best in gross competitions in my experience. Please explain.
[/quote]

No, I'm talking GROSS stableford format.

See dpb's response above.

There has only been ONE circumstance in probably 40+ stableford games I've played, where +1 on total points even CASHES. Winning is typically +4 to +6 over quota.

People who agree it is just as hard for a 13 handicap to make pars as it is a 0 to make birdies is incorrect. MUCH easier to make pars.

The group it most helps is the 10-18 handicap based on my experience.

[mark m]

[quote name='ProBowler' timestamp='1369960373' post='7139312']
I got paired with 2 golfers in a tournament last week and they both were in the Championship division and they came in at +2 and a +1 ........ They shot 86 and a 91 respectfully ........ the tournament director knows both of them and he said they both were probably around an 8 handicap at best !!!

So my question is ........ Why turn in false scores to boost your handicap ???

Just to be called a " scratch " golfer ???
Is it an ego thing ??
I just don't get it .........
[/quote]


Getting back to the OP

A good way to tell is to look at a players scoring record. If he has Tournament scores with differentials around 0.0 - that would show his handicap to be pretty accurate. Conversely, if all of his 'T' scores are way above his current HI and none are used to calculate his HI - that would also be instructive. The other thing you can look at is the course ratings. If the course rating of a tournament course is much more difficult than the 'scratch player" is used to playing - he may struggle. But not always. Some excellent players live in the outskirts and have few course choices (no hard courses around to play), but can still really excell in tournaments. But those are rare birds.

[cardoustie]

I have not been scratch in over 22 years. ... But I know there are four types of scratch players IMO

I will use real examples of guys I know or have known

FULL ON Vanity Scratch: Guy plays by himself, always shoots 71-74. Can't break 78 playing with others, can't break 83 in the club C's. Likely rakes in all four footers and does not know what three of the tee actually means. ATM

Home Course Scratch: Generally a weaker player on harder and longer courses but can shoot 71 half the time on his home track, which is short and or open with avg greens that you can miss and make easy up and downs. He knows the misses and he knows the greens. Will shoot 82 on a 7000 yard course and be perplexed and/or terrified as he it out of his element

True Scratch: Guys that can shoot 71-74 at home, travelling locally, playing interclubs, club C's, money games with friends, Rules stickler as well. Will shoot high 70's in Am and Mid-Am events. Can qualify but miss the cut generally

Stud or Tourney or Travelling Scratch: I know three of these guys, all top 10 in last year's CDN Mid-Am. One of them is a plus 5. These guys shoot in the 60's all the time, even in big events. By big events I mean provincial and nationals and big invitationals. Will come to your home club and break par even thought it is rated 74 and sloped 145. One guy won his club C by 19 shots after opening with a 64 with 10 birdies. One guy has played in two PGA tour events and the third guy has Nationwide experience and a NCAA all star

The STUD will beat the ATM by 15-20 shots, or even more, all the time in a big event

As Bob Jones said, there is golf and tournament golf

[mark m]

[quote name='idriveahonda' timestamp='1389118043' post='8416261']
[quote name='mark m' timestamp='1389116986' post='8416137']
idrive:

Are you talking stableford points based on NET scores?

A modified stableford point system is a huge advantage to higher handicap players in a net competiton. They can and do tend to make more net birdes, net eagles, net double eagles, etc., then low handicaps - [b][u]and[/u][/b] - they have little to no downside for poor scores on holes. The only way to make this somewhat fair would be to have corresponding big negative points for bad holes. But that takes one of the best things about stableford out of play - the ability to pick up on bad holes. Modified points work best in gross competitions in my experience. Please explain.
[/quote]

No, I'm talking GROSS stableford format.

See dpb's response above.

There has only been ONE circumstance in probably 40+ stableford games I've played, where +1 on total points even CASHES. Winning is typically +4 to +6 over quota.

People who agree it is just as hard for a 13 handicap to make pars as it is a 0 to make birdies is incorrect. MUCH easier to make pars.

The group it most helps is the 10-18 handicap based on my experience.
[/quote]

Sorry you are correct. I missed that you were talking about Quota Points system.
Your point system is correct. Good luck with the chairman!

[idriveahonda]

[quote name='mark m' timestamp='1389118939' post='8416405']
[quote name='idriveahonda' timestamp='1389118043' post='8416261']
[quote name='mark m' timestamp='1389116986' post='8416137']
idrive:

Are you talking stableford points based on NET scores?

A modified stableford point system is a huge advantage to higher handicap players in a net competiton. They can and do tend to make more net birdes, net eagles, net double eagles, etc., then low handicaps - [b][u]and[/u][/b] - they have little to no downside for poor scores on holes. The only way to make this somewhat fair would be to have corresponding big negative points for bad holes. But that takes one of the best things about stableford out of play - the ability to pick up on bad holes. Modified points work best in gross competitions in my experience. Please explain.
[/quote]

No, I'm talking GROSS stableford format.

See dpb's response above.

There has only been ONE circumstance in probably 40+ stableford games I've played, where +1 on total points even CASHES. Winning is typically +4 to +6 over quota.

People who agree it is just as hard for a 13 handicap to make pars as it is a 0 to make birdies is incorrect. MUCH easier to make pars.

The group it most helps is the 10-18 handicap based on my experience.
[/quote]

Sorry you are correct. I missed that you were talking about Quota Points system.
Your point system is correct. Good luck with the chairman!

[/quote]

So are there some people in agreeance with GROSS quota system going off of :
1-bogey, 2-par, 4-birdie, 8-eagle?

If so, it makes sense why the same people continually win (based on the 1-bogey, 2-par, 3-birdie, 4-eagle) and they are 10 and up handicaps.

[mark m]

[quote name='cardoustie' timestamp='1389118799' post='8416379']
I have not been scratch in over 22 years. ... But I know there are four types of scratch players IMO

I will use real examples of guys I know or have known

FULL ON Vanity Scratch: Guy plays by himself, always shoots 71-74. Can't break 78 playing with others, can't break 83 in the club C's. Likely rakes in all four footers and does not know what three of the tee actually means. ATM

Home Course Scratch: Generally a weaker player on harder and longer courses but can shoot 71 half the time on his home track, which is short and or open with avg greens that you can miss and make easy up and downs. He knows the misses and he knows the greens. Will shoot 82 on a 7000 yard course and be perplexed and/or terrified as he it out of his element

True Scratch: Guys that can shoot 71-74 at home, travelling locally, playing interclubs, club C's, money games with friends, Rules stickler as well. Will shoot high 70's in Am and Mid-Am events. Can qualify but miss the cut generally

Stud or Tourney or Travelling Scratch: I know three of these guys, all top 10 in last year's CDN Mid-Am. One of them is a plus 5. These guys shoot in the 60's all the time, even in big events. By big events I mean provincial and nationals and big invitationals. Will come to your home club and break par even thought it is rated 74 and sloped 145. One guy won his club C by 19 shots after opening with a 64 with 10 birdies. One guy has played in two PGA tour events and the third guy has Nationwide experience and a NCAA all star

The STUD will beat the ATM by 15-20 shots, or even more, all the time in a big event

As Bob Jones said, there is golf and tournament golf
[/quote]

+1 Well done sir!

The "travelling scratch" player's handicap is inaccurate if it is around 0.0. It should be at least +4, but he tends not to post all of his scores. (Posts 5 so-so scores in June when he really played 15+ times.) He is close to a "sandbagger" - but never or rarely is called such as he would rarely play in a NET competition. (Technically, a sandbagger maintains a higher handicap to win net competions.) So no one tends to say anything.

[mark m]

idrive: from here - [url="http://www.mngolf.org/games-individual.html"]http://www.mngolf.org/games-individual.html[/url]

(go to bottom of the page)

Also at usga.org: [url="http://www.usga.org/handicapping/articles_resources/Using-Your-Handicap-Articles---Resources/"]http://www.usga.org/handicapping/articles_resources/Using-Your-Handicap-Articles---Resources/[/url]

go to the bottom under Resources - [b]"tournaments for your club"[/b] and open the pdf. It is in there under "[u]Chicago Points System[/u]"

[b] Individual Quota Tournament, using USGA Course Handicap[/b]

18-holes of stroke play competition were the golfer is playing for Quota Points. Each player is assigned a Quota of points to make during the 18-holes of golf. The player's Quota is arrived by subtracting his/her USGA Handicap from 36.
Example; Jackie Parr has a handicap of 5, he/she needs Quota 31 points[u] before he/she gets any plus points.[/u] Bob Bogey has a 16 handicap, he has a Quota of 20 points[u] before he gets any plus points.[/u] USGA Handicaps of 33 and above are assigned a of Quota 4 points [u]before he/she gets any plus points.[/u]
[b]The winner of the event has the most points over his/her Quota.[/b]
The value of Stableford Points are:[indent]
1 Point net Bogey
2 Points net Par
4 Points net Birdie
8 Points net Eagle[/indent]
Scorekeeper: First line should reflect player's gross score and the second line the player's net score. The third line should reflect Quota Points earned on that hole.

[idriveahonda]

[quote name='mark m' timestamp='1389119778' post='8416505']
idrive: from here - [url="http://www.mngolf.org/games-individual.html"]http://www.mngolf.or...individual.html[/url]

(go to bottom of the page)

Also at usga.org: [url="http://www.usga.org/handicapping/articles_resources/Using-Your-Handicap-Articles---Resources/"]http://www.usga.org/...es---Resources/[/url]

go to the bottom under Resources - [b]"tournaments for your club"[/b] and open the pdf. It is in there under "[u]Chicago Points System[/u]"

[b] Individual Quota Tournament, using USGA Course Handicap[/b]

18-holes of stroke play competition were the golfer is playing for Quota Points. Each player is assigned a Quota of points to make during the 18-holes of golf. The player's Quota is arrived by subtracting his/her USGA Handicap from 36.
Example; Jackie Parr has a handicap of 5, he/she needs Quota 31 points[u] before he/she gets any plus points.[/u] Bob Bogey has a 16 handicap, he has a Quota of 20 points[u] before he gets any plus points.[/u] USGA Handicaps of 33 and above are assigned a of Quota 4 points [u]before he/she gets any plus points.[/u]
[b]The winner of the event has the most points over his/her Quota.[/b]
The value of Stableford Points are:
[indent=1]
1 Point net Bogey
2 Points net Par
4 Points net Birdie
8 Points net Eagle[/indent]
Scorekeeper: First line should reflect player's gross score and the second line the player's net score. The third line should reflect Quota Points earned on that hole.
[/quote]

If you were here I would kiss your sweet little face!

[RRFireblade]

[quote name='idriveahonda' timestamp='1389107299' post='8415005']
[quote name='BrianL99' timestamp='1389013551' post='8407197']
[quote name='idriveahonda' timestamp='1388866679' post='8397915']
I think it's fair to say most people in the US Handicapping system TRAVEL 2-5 strokes higher than on their home course.

An accurate handicap would be ~25% of rounds played at home course, mixed in with travel golf.
[/quote]

I'm guessing even higher than that.

I'm curious ... at +3.4 how does your handicap travel, generally? I would think it's damn tough to shoot 4 under at a course you don't know? Then again, most guys I know with handicaps as low as yours, typically play a lot more than just your "home course", which I suppose helps?
[/quote]

RRFireblade would be another good person to ask.

Again, remember…+3.4 doesn't mean I'm going to shoot 4-under…don't fall into that group of people making that assumption

I typically play 3-5 courses on the regular, so it's a fair mix.

I don't shoot a bunch of 68-69 on the regular. I typically mix in 64-65-66 with numerous 71-72-73. Depends on the putter that came that day.
[/quote]

Sorry I missed this.

My handicap I keep really just for personal reasons. It not required on any of the tours I play in but I like to keep it as a reference and because I get asked like all the time what mine is. To answer the question, mine is nearly 100% "Other" courses as there are very few rounds I enter that are played at my usual local courses. More often that not I play honest practice rounds when not in competition so few are 'legal'. My current cap is primarily my competitive entries although many of those rounds are on courses I have played before. In fact I would very rarely pay an entry fee and expect to cash on a blind course.

I mentioned this in another thread but the handicap system becomes increasing flawed as you get farther away from par. It becomes less about ability and more about course specs, ratings and various numerical factors. It's not even possible to figure a real handicap for most PGA touring players, best you could do would be to do the math and take a wild guess at a number that would really have no merit. I think most would be incredibly surprised (in both ways), to say the least, at what many at the top of the game carried as a cap before they went pro. It's basically a meaningless number after a certain point not any indication of ability in many cases. Didn't mean to go O/T, sorry.

[scottishpedro]

FULL ON Vanity Scratch: Guy plays by himself, always shoots 71-74. Can't break 78 playing with others, can't break 83 in the club C's. Likely rakes in all four footers and does not know what three of the tee actually means. ATM

Can you play in the US on your own and hand in a handicap counting score?

[mark m]

[quote name='scottishpedro' timestamp='1389133382' post='8417937']
FULL ON Vanity Scratch: Guy plays by himself, always shoots 71-74. Can't break 78 playing with others, can't break 83 in the club C's. Likely rakes in all four footers and does not know what three of the tee actually means. ATM

Can you play in the US on your own and hand in a handicap counting score?
[/quote]

Yes

If we ever went to a system where only tournament scores were used for handicap, the number of entries to many am tournaments would decrease. Like a state am for instance. IDK if this factors into the discussions on possible changes to our system. Any system has good points and bad points.