How many scratch players are TRUELY scratch players ????

[robnplunder]

[quote name='scottishpedro' timestamp='1388572373' post='8378101']In reality, the standard scratch changes depending on how people score on the day; this is usually influenced by weather conditions, pin positions and rough length etc.

[/quote]

Makes sense. I recently scored 91 & 82 on a same course, back to back days. Pin locations on the 1st day were atrocious and I felt good about 91. 2nd day, I played equally well as the pervious 91 but carded 82. The difference between the two days? 41 putts on the 1st day & 31 the next. The course played a lot harder on the 1st but US handicap system cannot account for that.

[BrianL99]

[quote name='ProBowler' timestamp='1369960373' post='7139312']
I got paired with 2 golfers in a tournament last week and they both were in the Championship division and they came in at +2 and a +1 ........ They shot 86 and a 91 respectfully ........ the tournament director knows both of them and he said they both were probably around an 8 handicap at best !!!

So my question is ........ Why turn in false scores to boost your handicap ???

Just to be called a " scratch " golfer ???
Is it an ego thing ??
I just don't get it .........
[/quote]

Not that there's not plenty of sand-bagging and vanity handicaps, but the vast majority of golfers simply don't understand how the handicap system works and the goal.

It's strictly a "potential" number. You could be a legitimate 0 Index, without ever having shot even par (or even 1 or 2 over on a difficult course).

So the question when playing with someone isn't "is this guy a Par shooter", it's "could this guy shoot Par on his [b]best[/b] day" ?

[tinytim]

you are only scratch, if you collect your handicap on "unknown" courses !
thats the huge difference between top-players and the PGA tour guys, who play "scratch or better" every weekend on some other courses!
add to your localcourse handicap maybe 6 shots, and youre next to your handicap :P

[playa]

There are plenty of scratch handicaps who are not scratch golfers and struggle when they play away from their home coure. It stands to reason that you are at least a few shots better at home. Better course management is worth at least 5 shots imo.

[scottishpedro]

While I agree that every player will be better at their home course, at scratch level it is not 5 or 6 shots.

[playa]

[quote name='scottishpedro' timestamp='1388602814' post='8379619']
While I agree that every player will be better at their home course, at scratch level it is not 5 or 6 shots.
[/quote]
To clarify, I'm talking tournament conditions and setup. Under non trickep up conditions agree a scratch golfer should shoot close to par anywhere.

[scottishpedro]

[quote name='playa' timestamp='1388607188' post='8380029']
[quote name='scottishpedro' timestamp='1388602814' post='8379619']
While I agree that every player will be better at their home course, at scratch level it is not 5 or 6 shots.
[/quote]
To clarify, I'm talking tournament conditions and setup. Under non trickep up conditions agree a scratch golfer should shoot close to par anywhere.
[/quote]

That's where I guess the uk standard scratch score comes into play. It is determined by how tough the course is. Typically a standard par 72 will have a standard scratch 72 (which will go up or down on the day of a competition depending on conditions and course set up etc). If a course were set up really tough for a tournament, the CSS would rise in the Uk to reflect that, whereas in the US there is no provision for this. So what you are saying is correct in the US. An easy course set up and calm weather conditions versus a tough tournament set up, a scratch golfer's scores could vary wildly. This does not happen in the UK. Take Carnoustie as an example again. I played in my club's Autumn meeting, playing off the members back tees. The par was 72 and the competition standard scratch rose to 78. That day my gross 76 was effectively 2 under par. The Dunhill links was played the week later, pretty much identical course set up (they can't make it too difficult because the amateurs have to be able to play), the pros tees were a little further back from the members tips but not much, and even a lot of the pros scored well above par 72!

Cheers

Pete

[BrianL99]

[quote name='playa' timestamp='1388607188' post='8380029']
[quote name='scottishpedro' timestamp='1388602814' post='8379619']
While I agree that every player will be better at their home course, at scratch level it is not 5 or 6 shots.
[/quote]
To clarify, I'm talking tournament conditions and setup. Under non trickep up conditions agree a scratch golfer should shoot close to par anywhere.
[/quote]

That's just not true. A Scratch player should shoot within 3 of the course rating about 1/2 the time. The odds of a Scratch player shooting below the Course Rating, are about 4:1. Note "Course Rating", not "Par".

See: www.popeofslope.com

(At least with the USGA Handicap System)

[Ballgofarboy]

Then again, a HCP is 10 best of your last 20 and then a percentage of that. Say you got hot for a month. Couple of years ago my 10 best of my last 20 put me at -9 for a score, that would have made me pretty close to scratch. I know I am not that but for a while I was pretty hard to beat.

[playa]

[quote name='BrianL99' timestamp='1388608575' post='8380159']
[quote name='playa' timestamp='1388607188' post='8380029']
[quote name='scottishpedro' timestamp='1388602814' post='8379619']
While I agree that every player will be better at their home course, at scratch level it is not 5 or 6 shots.
[/quote]
To clarify, I'm talking tournament conditions and setup. Under non trickep up conditions agree a scratch golfer should shoot close to par anywhere.
[/quote]

That's just not true. A Scratch player should shoot within 3 of the course rating about 1/2 the time. The odds of a Scratch player shooting below the Course Rating, are about 4:1. Note "Course Rating", not "Par".

See: www.popeofslope.com

(At least with the USGA Handicap System)
[/quote]
I was referring to par, not course rating. That stuff just confuses me. I have played regularly with scratch caps and on a normal comp from forward tees they shoot par or better more often than not. In tourneys from the plates the same guys will be high 70s more often than par or better.

[BTP]

[quote name='scottishpedro' timestamp='1388572373' post='8378101']
[quote name='BTP' timestamp='1388425553' post='8368113']
Yes, definitely.
It's very clear that a "scratch" golfer is a loose term. It is apparent that it depends whose lens you're looking through too. My friends think I am a scratch golfer because I shoot par or better at a local course that plays less than 6,000yrds from the tips every time. Whereas I play to a 6.5 at my home course, which averages about 6,400yrds. One could then conclude that a particular player with the same handicap playing their 7000+yrds course is a better player than the golfer playing their 6200yrds course, but that very well may not be the case.
A true scratch golfer posts low scores during casual rounds and competitive tournament rounds with very little deviation above that 70-72 shot range. That is my definition of a "scratch" golfer, even though technically they would be a USGA + handicap.
[/quote]

The UK handicapping system is very different to the US system. From what I have read, your handicap in the US is based on the average of your best 50% of recent scores? Do you have a competition standard scratch, i.e. does the course rating adjust on the day for weather conditions? Does the course rating/difficulty/length get taken into acount?

As an example of how it works in the UK, I'll use my home course as an example. Carnoustie has 3 courses. The championship course (the famous one) is a par 72. It has been rated as a standard scratch 75, I.e a scratch handicapper should score 75 to play to the handicap as per the card. In reality, the standard scratch changes depending on how people score on the day; this is usually influenced by weather conditions, pin positions and rough length etc. At Carnoustie the competiton standard scratch almost always goes up, so on an average day in the summer the wind will be around 20-25mph and the competition standard scratch will often be 77.

The shortest of the courses at Carnoustie is the Buddon, it's currently a par 66. This favours the higher handicaps because it is shorter and there is less trouble. For me (1 hancicap) the championship course is much easier to play to handicap than the Buddon due or the higher standard scratch, so in generel the lounge and more difficult courses offer more opportunity to shoot a scratch round than the easier courses. Is this the case in the US or will many scratch players play primarily at shorter/easier courses?

Cheers

Pete
[/quote]

I like that a lot better. No the USGA to my knowledge does not do anything like that. I find that many scratch players play primarily at shorter/easier courses here.

[scottishpedro]

[quote name='playa' timestamp='1388613993' post='8380609']
I have played regularly with scratch caps and on a normal comp from forward tees they shoot par or better more often than not. In tourneys from the plates the same guys will be high 70s more often than par or better.
[/quote]

That is it exactly. A course with forward tees will be easier than par. The same course off back tees and tough pins is much harder than par. I think this highlights the problem with the US handicapping system as it doesn't take into account how difficult the course is, just what the par is.

[Beastmode Broker]

[quote name='JJK947' timestamp='1369967170' post='7140180']
People don't realize that scratch just means the average of your BEST HALF of you scores is equal to the course rating. I am currently at +1.7 but does that mean I am shooting under par every time I get on the course? Absolutely not. On my good days I am at or below the course rating, on my bad days, who knows because it really doesn't matter in this handicap system. Heck, I shot 85 waking up at 5 am and playing in the rain and cold the other week in a tournament, I guess I'm not a real scratch then? Amateur golfers also tend to play the same one or two courses a majority of the time so you'll find that a lot of guys' handicaps "don't travel well." There's a far greater likelihood that I am going to put up a low score on my home course during a casual round in conditions that are favorable to me. And most of my posted scores are just that.
[/quote]

could not have said it better myself
my index also says a 1.7 .. at my home course and dash of some other locals
doesnt mean im going to shoot my index at a course ive never seen

not saying i have a vanity cap, i play by the rules, post all my scores (good or bad) and it is what it is
i can be pretty inconsistent tho ... one day could be 72, the next could be an 85 no problem
sometimes ill string together a few low 70's rounds, but on any given day ill be in the mid to high 70's w a splash of some mid 80's beauty! LOL!

my best round ever was a 66... one of those days where every putt dropped
followed it up the next day w a 79 .... one of those days where NOTHING dropped

[JJK947]

[quote name='enis750' timestamp='1388617209' post='8380889']
[quote name='JJK947' timestamp='1369967170' post='7140180']
People don't realize that scratch just means the average of your BEST HALF of you scores is equal to the course rating. I am currently at +1.7 but does that mean I am shooting under par every time I get on the course? Absolutely not. On my good days I am at or below the course rating, on my bad days, who knows because it really doesn't matter in this handicap system. Heck, I shot 85 waking up at 5 am and playing in the rain and cold the other week in a tournament, I guess I'm not a real scratch then? Amateur golfers also tend to play the same one or two courses a majority of the time so you'll find that a lot of guys' handicaps "don't travel well." There's a far greater likelihood that I am going to put up a low score on my home course during a casual round in conditions that are favorable to me. And most of my posted scores are just that.
[/quote]

could not have said it better myself
my index also says a 1.7 .. at my home course and dash of some other locals
doesnt mean im going to shoot my index at a course ive never seen

not saying i have a vanity cap, i play by the rules, post all my scores (good or bad) and it is what it is
i can be pretty inconsistent tho ... one day could be 72, the next could be an 85 no problem
sometimes ill string together a few low 70's rounds, but on any given day ill be in the mid to high 70's w a splash of some mid 80's beauty! LOL!

my best round ever was a 66... one of those days where every putt dropped
followed it up the next day w a 79 .... one of those days where NOTHING dropped
[/quote]

It's funny I posted that in May. A couple months ago I shot a 66 and followed it up with a couple 81s in a tournament on a tricked out course I've never played before. Also wasn't striking it very well.

I've gotten my game to the point this year where 81-82 is the worst I can shoot but like you I still post a lot of scores between 73 and 78. It's those 2 or 3 rounds in the 60s that drop my cap considerably. My average score is about 74 yet my handicap is in the + range.

[Craglyboy]

[quote name='scottishpedro' timestamp='1388615574' post='8380759']
[quote name='playa' timestamp='1388613993' post='8380609']
I have played regularly with scratch caps and on a normal comp from forward tees they shoot par or better more often than not. In tourneys from the plates the same guys will be high 70s more often than par or better.
[/quote]

That is it exactly. A course with forward tees will be easier than par. The same course off back tees and tough pins is much harder than par. I think this highlights the problem with the US handicapping system as it doesn't take into account how difficult the course is, just what the par is.
[/quote]

Another issue is its a lot easier to reduce your handicap in America as well. In the uk you go down .1 every shot you are under standars scratch. The example you posted earlier is an absolute extreme. I normally see CSS go up maybe 2 or 3 shots on a really tough day and standard scratch is quite often below par to start off with anyways, so with that in regard my course is par 71 ss 69 so, to go down half a shot you have to shoot 7 under your handicap. It can take a lot longer to reduce your handicap than America of other systems such as SA.

So in the uk you have to be a lot more consistent, again, if you were playing well say shooting 3 under your handicap, you would have to play 10 rounds to get cut 1 shot. I don't think I've seen anyone with a 4 or lower handicap go out and not look like they couldn't get under par.

[BrianL99]

[quote name='playa' timestamp='1388613993' post='8380609']
[quote name='BrianL99' timestamp='1388608575' post='8380159']
[quote name='playa' timestamp='1388607188' post='8380029']
[quote name='scottishpedro' timestamp='1388602814' post='8379619']
While I agree that every player will be better at their home course, at scratch level it is not 5 or 6 shots.
[/quote]
To clarify, I'm talking tournament conditions and setup. Under non trickep up conditions agree a scratch golfer should shoot close to par anywhere.
[/quote]

That's just not true. A Scratch player should shoot within 3 of the course rating about 1/2 the time. The odds of a Scratch player shooting below the Course Rating, are about 4:1. Note "Course Rating", not "Par".

See: www.popeofslope.com

(At least with the USGA Handicap System)
[/quote]
I was referring to par, not course rating. That stuff just confuses me. I have played regularly with scratch caps and on a normal comp from forward tees they shoot par or better more often than not. In tourneys from the plates the same guys will be high 70s more often than par or better.
[/quote]

That's about exactly where they should be, according to the Pope of Slope.

[BrianL99]

[quote name='scottishpedro' timestamp='1388615574' post='8380759']
[quote name='playa' timestamp='1388613993' post='8380609']
I have played regularly with scratch caps and on a normal comp from forward tees they shoot par or better more often than not. In tourneys from the plates the same guys will be high 70s more often than par or better.
[/quote]

That is it exactly. A course with forward tees will be easier than par. The same course off back tees and tough pins is much harder than par. I think this highlights the problem with the US handicapping system as it doesn't take into account how difficult the course is, just what the par is.
[/quote]

Huh?

Of what do you think "Rating" & "Slope" are there for?

[Craglyboy]

[quote name='BrianL99' timestamp='1388626220' post='8381759']
[quote name='scottishpedro' timestamp='1388615574' post='8380759']
[quote name='playa' timestamp='1388613993' post='8380609']
I have played regularly with scratch caps and on a normal comp from forward tees they shoot par or better more often than not. In tourneys from the plates the same guys will be high 70s more often than par or better.
[/quote]

That is it exactly. A course with forward tees will be easier than par. The same course off back tees and tough pins is much harder than par. I think this highlights the problem with the US handicapping system as it doesn't take into account how difficult the course is, just what the par is.
[/quote]

Huh?

Of what do you think "Rating" & "Slope" are there for?
[/quote]

Your ratings are generally greater than par in the uk a lot of courses I play the standard scratch is below par or par you can be a scratch golfer in America and never shoot under par where as it's impossible to do that in the uk.

[chrisgilly09]

Haven't been a scratch in years...

Agree it's more difficult in the UK

[awil]

[quote name='PlayinThru' timestamp='1369972196' post='7140722']
Players with legitimate + or scratch handicaps reputation's precede them.

It works like this:
"Such Andsuch is playing in this tournament."
"What's his handicap?"
"I don't know, but he's won the _______ Invitational (or qualified for something)."

-NOT-
"There's a guy playing in this tournament with a +2 handicap."
"Who is it? Where's he from?"
"I don't know. I've never heard of him."
[/quote]
This is right on ; I've heard at a few levels of high arise level golf that once your handicap has been reached that you can play in certain events some don't even bother to post anymore ; because they won't play a 20 for money . Most games at that level are even strokes

[goobers80]

[color="#800080"]​Tournament courses i try to be likes five over at worst. Nobody can conquer a true tournaments course the first times through. I played Merion at 82 ands i did nots see half of the landing spots. Give me practice rounds , the scores woulds lower. I also played on courses so much harder thans anything i ever played on , i hads to adjust to *real* tournament conditions. The next times through , i will nots be overwhelmed. [/color]

[scottishpedro]

[quote name='BrianL99' timestamp='1388626220' post='8381759']
[quote name='scottishpedro' timestamp='1388615574' post='8380759']
[quote name='playa' timestamp='1388613993' post='8380609']
I have played regularly with scratch caps and on a normal comp from forward tees they shoot par or better more often than not. In tourneys from the plates the same guys will be high 70s more often than par or better.
[/quote]

That is it exactly. A course with forward tees will be easier than par. The same course off back tees and tough pins is much harder than par. I think this highlights the problem with the US handicapping system as it doesn't take into account how difficult the course is, just what the par is.
[/quote]

Huh?

Of what do you think "Rating" & "Slope" are there for?
[/quote]

Sorry I didn't realise slope/course rating were part of the calculation for handicap.

[tinytim]

[quote name='chrisgilly09' timestamp='1388642929' post='8383227']
Agree it's more difficult in the UK
[/quote]

Same in Germany. To become Scratch you NEED to score under Par.
On an easy Course, you need to Score -3 to confirm your Handiicap of 0.0 ( if you shoot just -1, your new handicap is -0.1).
And it also takes you years to lower your HC, not only the last rounds. You start with 54 and if you play your first 10 Tournaments even Par, your HC will maybe around 5-10 (depends on toughness of course). And if you now play the next 10 Tournaments even Par, you are somewhere around 2-4 HC. and now it takes you 10+ more Tournaments with even Par to become cloe to "true scratch".

If you have +0.2 your Targetscore will be (around) Par (maybe +2 Shots, if its super hard Course). Lets say, standard course and 72 Par.
If you shoot 72 - great. you confirmed your HC. if you shoot 73, nothing happens, if you go 74, your new HC is +0.3 if you shoot 75 its +0.4
You need to shoot under Par (!). With each shot under your targetscore you are lowering 0.1 So if you shoot a 72 its +0.1 if you go for a 71 its scratch zero 0.0
And this is a progress which takes years, since your Handicap is never resettet. If you have a streak where you suck, and you cant confirm your HC its going up with each tournament. Thats why its more difficult in Germany or UK to become Scratch

Still wondering why almost everybody here is <8 HC and so many claims to be scratch. But its logical if its just the average of the last few Rounds.

[idriveahonda]

US Handicap can fluctuate dramatically if you play a bunch of golf.

Hot streak vs. cold streak, you are talking 5-10 strokes in handicap difference…over a span of a couple months.

Thus why I only give strokes to people I play with [b]regularly.[/b]

[ben w]

from all this discussion, I like the UK system better. The USGA indexes change quickly, and can be manipulated all too well. Need to increase your handicap by 5-10 strokes for the upcoming member/guest net tournament? No problem. Need to get down to a 1.0 index to play in USGA qualifiers? No problem.

[bogeypro]

[quote name='ben w' timestamp='1388680839' post='8384871']
from all this discussion, I like the UK system better. The USGA indexes change quickly, and can be manipulated all too well. Need to increase your handicap by 5-10 strokes for the upcoming member/guest net tournament? No problem. Need to get down to a 1.0 index to play in USGA qualifiers? No problem.
[/quote]

This is not true. As your handicap goes down, it becomes harder to make it go down further. I got to 6 handicap fairly quickly, but it took alot of good scores to go down to even a 3. It took alot more to get to 1 and then 0. I was once at +1, but it came up fairly quickly. Right now, I could go out and post a 100 or even a 59 and my handicap wouldn't budge because of the number of scores I have in there. It would kick them out and wouldn't use them to calculate.

Most scratch players that I know are very consistent. Their scores won't vary but maybe 2 strokes up or down. It would take alot of scores at 2 strokes under your handicap to get it to move 0.1.

[ben w]

[quote name='bogeypro' timestamp='1388690198' post='8385921']
[quote name='ben w' timestamp='1388680839' post='8384871']
from all this discussion, I like the UK system better. The USGA indexes change quickly, and can be manipulated all too well. Need to increase your handicap by 5-10 strokes for the upcoming member/guest net tournament? No problem. Need to get down to a 1.0 index to play in USGA qualifiers? No problem.
[/quote]

This is not true. As your handicap goes down, it becomes harder to make it go down further. I got to 6 handicap fairly quickly, but it took alot of good scores to go down to even a 3. It took alot more to get to 1 and then 0. I was once at +1, but it came up fairly quickly. Right now, I could go out and post a 100 or even a 59 and my handicap wouldn't budge because of the number of scores I have in there. It would kick them out and wouldn't use them to calculate.

Most scratch players that I know are very consistent. Their scores won't vary but maybe 2 strokes up or down. It would take alot of scores at 2 strokes under your handicap to get it to move 0.1.
[/quote]

I hear what you're saying, but what I was getting at is that the USGA system is easier to manipulate. Knowing that the best 10 rounds of the last 20 handed in are what computes your handicap, you can turn in a bunch of high scores consecutively, or omit low ones. I have seen guys at clubs go from a 8 handicap to a 13.5 in a couple months leading up to a big event. It strikes me that handicaps progress much slower in the UK and thus the incentive to manipulate it is lost. I have also heard that in many places you are required to hand in scores in tournaments, which are of course more closely monitored than a casual round by yourself or with friends.

[scottishpedro]

[quote name='ben w' timestamp='1388693905' post='8386357']
[quote name='bogeypro' timestamp='1388690198' post='8385921']
[quote name='ben w' timestamp='1388680839' post='8384871']
from all this discussion, I like the UK system better. The USGA indexes change quickly, and can be manipulated all too well. Need to increase your handicap by 5-10 strokes for the upcoming member/guest net tournament? No problem. Need to get down to a 1.0 index to play in USGA qualifiers? No problem.
[/quote]

This is not true. As your handicap goes down, it becomes harder to make it go down further. I got to 6 handicap fairly quickly, but it took alot of good scores to go down to even a 3. It took alot more to get to 1 and then 0. I was once at +1, but it came up fairly quickly. Right now, I could go out and post a 100 or even a 59 and my handicap wouldn't budge because of the number of scores I have in there. It would kick them out and wouldn't use them to calculate.

Most scratch players that I know are very consistent. Their scores won't vary but maybe 2 strokes up or down. It would take alot of scores at 2 strokes under your handicap to get it to move 0.1.
[/quote]

I hear what you're saying, but what I was getting at is that the USGA system is easier to manipulate. Knowing that the best 10 rounds of the last 20 handed in are what computes your handicap, you can turn in a bunch of high scores consecutively, or omit low ones. I have seen guys at clubs go from a 8 handicap to a 13.5 in a couple months leading up to a big event. It strikes me that handicaps progress much slower in the UK and thus the incentive to manipulate it is lost. I have also heard that in many places you are required to hand in scores in tournaments, which are of course more closely monitored than a casual round by yourself or with friends.
[/quote]

Every handicap counting score in the UK has to recorded in a competition, apart from supplementary scores which are a new way of entering scores for those whos work commitments etc prevent them playing in competitions. For category 1 players (handicaps of 5 or less), supplementary scores are not allowed, so every counting round is in competition.

[ND2005]

[quote name='playa' timestamp='1388602360' post='8379579']
There are plenty of scratch handicaps who are not scratch golfers
[/quote]

If you post the scores honestly, I'm not one to quibble with the handicap system and tell someone they may be a "scratch handicap" but not a "scratch golfer" lol.

Sounds like what you guys really are saying is that to be "scratch" in your minds, someone has to have a pretty solid + handicap.

[xxjonesyxx]

I posted this somewhere before about how hard it is to get to scratch in the UK/ Europe system. Plus only competition rounds count.
The example below is a 5 handicapper shooting a stretch of 'par' rounds in a row.

A 5 shoots par (5 shots under hcp 0.1 x 5) so he's now a 4.5
shoots par again (5 shots under hcp 0.1 x 5) so now he's a 4
shoots par again (4 shots under hcp 0.1 x 4) so now he's a 3.6
shoots par again (4 shots under hcp 0.1 x 4) so now he's a 3.2
shoots par again (3shots under hcp 0.1 x 3) so now he's a 2.9
shoots par again (3shots under hcp 0.1 x 3) so now he's a 2.6
shoots par again (3shots under hcp 0.1 x 3) so now he's a 2.3
shoots par again (2 shots under hcp 0.1 x 2) so now he's a 2.1
shoots par again (2 shots under hcp 0.1 x 2) so now he's a 1.9
shoots par again (2 shots under hcp 0.1 x 2) so now he's a 1.7
shoots par again (2 shots under hcp 0.1 x 2) so now he's a 1.5

And so on, so that's 11 rounds of par in a row and still playing off 2!!!

(When i say par i mean CSS to be exact)

I have read that there is approx a 4 shot difference between handicaps over here in US ones. So someone of 0 in the states would be a 4 capper here, and would shoot the odd 80's round quite often in my experience.


Neil