How many scratch players are TRUELY scratch players ????

[scottishpedro]

[quote name='mark m' timestamp='1389134690' post='8418037']
[quote name='scottishpedro' timestamp='1389133382' post='8417937']
FULL ON Vanity Scratch: Guy plays by himself, always shoots 71-74. Can't break 78 playing with others, can't break 83 in the club C's. Likely rakes in all four footers and does not know what three of the tee actually means. ATM

Can you play in the US on your own and hand in a handicap counting score?
[/quote]

Yes

If we ever went to a system where only tournament scores were used for handicap, the number of entries to many am tournaments would decrease. Like a state am for instance. IDK if this factors into the discussions on possible changes to our system. Any system has good points and bad points.
[/quote]

I understand that, and personally I agree with being able to hand in a card at every opportunity, but a single player handing in a card with no one to verify the score is wide open to manipulation. Surely a rule where there must be a minimum of 2 players (to sign each other's cards) for handicap purposes would make sense.

[mark m]

[quote name='scottishpedro' timestamp='1389135249' post='8418091']
[quote name='mark m' timestamp='1389134690' post='8418037']
[quote name='scottishpedro' timestamp='1389133382' post='8417937']
FULL ON Vanity Scratch: Guy plays by himself, always shoots 71-74. Can't break 78 playing with others, can't break 83 in the club C's. Likely rakes in all four footers and does not know what three of the tee actually means. ATM

Can you play in the US on your own and hand in a handicap counting score?
[/quote]

Yes

If we ever went to a system where only tournament scores were used for handicap, the number of entries to many am tournaments would decrease. Like a state am for instance. IDK if this factors into the discussions on possible changes to our system. Any system has good points and bad points.
[/quote]

I understand that, and personally I agree with being able to hand in a card at every opportunity, but a single player handing in a card with no one to verify the score is wide open to manipulation. Surely a rule where there must be a minimum of 2 players (to sign each other's cards) for handicap purposes would make sense.
[/quote]

If read the postings here, many guys don't go into the clubhouse to post their score. They do it with their phone or from home. Cards cannot be required to be turned in for these type of casual rounds either. So real peer review is a challenge to implement. We value freedom. With that freedom comes responsibility to do the right thing and follow the rules. Some do manipulate the system - no question about it. They say the USGA is looking at the system for ways to improve it - and so change could come.

[Craglyboy]

[quote name='JustTheTips' timestamp='1389106712' post='8414947']
Both systems have flaws. Google around and you will find complaints about sandbagging and vanity caps with both systems. People that want to cheat will cheat. The UK system takes a lot longer to respond to changes. You can view that is a good or a bad thing. Personally I think it leads to unintentional vanity caps and sandbagging.


[/quote]

I can see the vanity caps as a disadvantage we had a net 58 score in a tourney a couple of months back and the guy hasn't come anywhere near replicating that form, but sandbagging is almost impossible in the uk. You can only go up a maximum of 0.1 per round even if you NR. Seeing as if your a higher handicapper and go down 0.4 per shot under CSS your gonna trend downwards and the fact of the matter is at the higher handicaps you would rather have vanity capers than sandbaggers, at the lower handicaps your handicap can only go down 0.1 per shot under CSS.

[Craglyboy]

[quote name='mark m' timestamp='1389135843' post='8418161']
[quote name='scottishpedro' timestamp='1389135249' post='8418091']
[quote name='mark m' timestamp='1389134690' post='8418037']
[quote name='scottishpedro' timestamp='1389133382' post='8417937']
FULL ON Vanity Scratch: Guy plays by himself, always shoots 71-74. Can't break 78 playing with others, can't break 83 in the club C's. Likely rakes in all four footers and does not know what three of the tee actually means. ATM

Can you play in the US on your own and hand in a handicap counting score?
[/quote]

Yes

If we ever went to a system where only tournament scores were used for handicap, the number of entries to many am tournaments would decrease. Like a state am for instance. IDK if this factors into the discussions on possible changes to our system. Any system has good points and bad points.
[/quote]

I understand that, and personally I agree with being able to hand in a card at every opportunity, but a single player handing in a card with no one to verify the score is wide open to manipulation. Surely a rule where there must be a minimum of 2 players (to sign each other's cards) for handicap purposes would make sense.
[/quote]

If read the postings here, many guys don't go into the clubhouse to post their score. They do it with their phone or from home. Cards cannot be required to be turned in for these type of casual rounds either. So real peer review is a challenge to implement. We value freedom. With that freedom comes responsibility to do the right thing and follow the rules. Some do manipulate the system - no question about it. They say the USGA is looking at the system for ways to improve it - and so change could come.
[/quote]

That is utterly ridiculous. I understand this game is all about integrity but to allow that to happen is an utter farce. Every score in competition should be recorded, with regards to casual rounds in the uk you can put General play cards in if you wish but they will only change your handicap in exceptional circumstances. In fact as long as your not category 1 you can ask for you handicap to be reduced regardless of your scores.

[mark m]

[quote name='Craglyboy' timestamp='1389137096' post='8418299']
[quote name='mark m' timestamp='1389135843' post='8418161']
[quote name='scottishpedro' timestamp='1389135249' post='8418091']
[quote name='mark m' timestamp='1389134690' post='8418037']
[quote name='scottishpedro' timestamp='1389133382' post='8417937']
FULL ON Vanity Scratch: Guy plays by himself, always shoots 71-74. Can't break 78 playing with others, can't break 83 in the club C's. Likely rakes in all four footers and does not know what three of the tee actually means. ATM

Can you play in the US on your own and hand in a handicap counting score?
[/quote]

Yes

If we ever went to a system where only tournament scores were used for handicap, the number of entries to many am tournaments would decrease. Like a state am for instance. IDK if this factors into the discussions on possible changes to our system. Any system has good points and bad points.
[/quote]

I understand that, and personally I agree with being able to hand in a card at every opportunity, but a single player handing in a card with no one to verify the score is wide open to manipulation. Surely a rule where there must be a minimum of 2 players (to sign each other's cards) for handicap purposes would make sense.
[/quote]

If read the postings here, many guys don't go into the clubhouse to post their score. They do it with their phone or from home. Cards cannot be required to be turned in for these type of casual rounds either. So real peer review is a challenge to implement. We value freedom. With that freedom comes responsibility to do the right thing and follow the rules. Some do manipulate the system - no question about it. They say the USGA is looking at the system for ways to improve it - and so change could come.
[/quote]

That is utterly ridiculous. I understand this game is all about integrity but to allow that to happen is an utter farce. Every score in competition should be recorded, with regards to casual rounds in the uk you can put General play cards in if you wish but they will only change your handicap in exceptional circumstances. In fact as long as your not category 1 you can ask for you handicap to be reduced regardless of your scores.
[/quote]

There are many weaknesses. A obvious positive is for guys that play a lot, their handicaps can change to more accurately reflect their current playing ability. This is a great feature if you play for a few bucks in a smaller group that otherwise follows the rules. I play in such a group. I could live with your system too. It would put more of a premium on creating a real golf club. Where the members are there to play golf with one another (less "free agents"). It would also help to focus the leaders in the importance of creating good tournaments for all ability levels. It would simplify things - play golf in a few tournaments each season to be a member in good standing. I see nothing wrong with that principle.

[CG69's]

It's tough as a scratch player to not try to "live up to" your handicap. If you play well it's expected. If you play poorly you lie about your scores. I've learned to only think about my handicap when figuring up the cash games. I turn in every card and whatever happens happens. I fluctuated from +1 to 1.5 last year but had a couple of outliers in the mid eighties. Some people will be jealous and try to bash anyone who's better than them. As long as I'm enjoying myself and I know I'm being honest I don't worry about people's perception of my handicap.

[scottishpedro]

[quote name='mark m' timestamp='1389135843' post='8418161']
[quote name='scottishpedro' timestamp='1389135249' post='8418091']
[quote name='mark m' timestamp='1389134690' post='8418037']
[quote name='scottishpedro' timestamp='1389133382' post='8417937']
FULL ON Vanity Scratch: Guy plays by himself, always shoots 71-74. Can't break 78 playing with others, can't break 83 in the club C's. Likely rakes in all four footers and does not know what three of the tee actually means. ATM

Can you play in the US on your own and hand in a handicap counting score?
[/quote]

Yes

If we ever went to a system where only tournament scores were used for handicap, the number of entries to many am tournaments would decrease. Like a state am for instance. IDK if this factors into the discussions on possible changes to our system. Any system has good points and bad points.
[/quote]

I understand that, and personally I agree with being able to hand in a card at every opportunity, but a single player handing in a card with no one to verify the score is wide open to manipulation. Surely a rule where there must be a minimum of 2 players (to sign each other's cards) for handicap purposes would make sense.
[/quote]

If read the postings here, many guys don't go into the clubhouse to post their score. They do it with their phone or from home. Cards cannot be required to be turned in for these type of casual rounds either. So real peer review is a challenge to implement. We value freedom. With that freedom comes responsibility to do the right thing and follow the rules. Some do manipulate the system - no question about it. They say the USGA is looking at the system for ways to improve it - and so change could come.
[/quote]

Freedom is a good thing, however It becomes difficult to implement correct rules etc when a single player enters his own, unverifiable score. An example, and the only time I played in America (I was about 12), my Dad and I played with a local guy who was keeping score. He took about 6 'mulligans' during his round then declared after the round that his score was good and his handicap would decrease. I honestly don't know if he was aware he was breaking the rules or if he was knowingly falsifying his score.

Pete

[Bingo1976]

I realised very quickly when I moved to the USGA system that playing any net competition was pointless, as someone would sandbag a couple of stupidly low rounds in competition (the prizes out in Asia are quite generous).

I only play in the gross comps now, which as a 5 gives me a very limited chance to win, but at least lets me gauge my game against the better players, not the micky mouse B and C divisions with their Pluto verified 'caps.

I do prefer the CONGU system of your handicap being your actual rather than your potential, although it is far from perfect. It does however mean that a scratch handicap should play to scratch, which seems more equitable to me. I am a 7-9 handicap in terms of actual scores vs par - I could play off the back tees at my club (7,000yds, 74.9 and 150 slope) never shoot better than 77 and be a scratch golfer - that doesn't seem right to me.

[SurfDuffer]

I'm not scratch but I've played embarrassingly bad in tournaments. Only once have I played a round better than my handicap would suggest in a tournament situation and that is my all time low score and that was just a day where my putter caught fire. Tournament pressure and playing with unfamiliar people both are things I'm not comfortable with and it usually reflects in my scores.

[backtees]

Over here in Europe every tournament (invitation, mid-weeks, club-championship etc.) counts. Absolutely no mercy.
And if you do not play at least 3 tournaments a year your hcp will raise up.

On top of that a commitee has the power the adjust the handicap of each player according to the results during the year.

So, over here a scratch-handicaper plays scratch - at least on average.

[lumberman2462]

[quote name='Bingo1976' timestamp='1389176853' post='8420847']
I realised very quickly when I moved to the USGA system that playing any net competition was pointless, as someone would sandbag a couple of stupidly low rounds in competition (the prizes out in Asia are quite generous).

I only play in the gross comps now, which as a 5 gives me a very limited chance to win, but at least lets me gauge my game against the better players, not the micky mouse B and C divisions with their Pluto verified 'caps.

I do prefer the CONGU system of your handicap being your actual rather than your potential, although it is far from perfect. It does however mean that a scratch handicap should play to scratch, which seems more equitable to me. I am a 7-9 handicap in terms of actual scores vs par - I could play off the back tees at my club (7,000yds, 74.9 and 150 slope) never shoot better than 77 and be a scratch golfer - that doesn't seem right to me.
[/quote]

We've got a tough course an hour or so away from where I live and they've got a slew of scratch handicap players that rarely -- make that never -- shoot 74 or below. It's a 75 course rating and high slope.

[Drudersh]

In the last few years I have fluctuated between 2 and +2. I've shot my fair share of rounds under par but my cap is also a reflection of the fact that I moved from a longer course with fescue lined fairways to a shorter Donald Ross course with 3 reachable Par 5's, one of which if it's dry and running is often a 6/7/8 iron into a severely elevated and protected green, par is bogey there for me. I go through good stretches just like anyone else and bad stretches, the good this year included my qualifying for the US Mid Am, the bad was my play at the Mid Am.

As for playing by myself, I do it every now and then and if I play it straight, I turn the card in, but if I hit one practice shot, it's no longer a legit round, most of my golf is Sat and Sun morning with a group and we all funnel into the clubhouse and post right away, there is peer pressure to do so to keep handicaps legit and keep games fair and balanced.

This whole argument that scratch golfers should shoot close to level par every time can be debunked pretty easily by looking at the scores posted at qualifiers for various tournaments. Go to any sectional golf organizations website and look up local US Open qualifying scores, which require that you carry a 1.4 index or less to enter, and see how many of those guys shoot around par. I understand the argument against hollywood handicaps and how they make the player look silly, but 95+% of these are guys that play and post their scores accurately, and look how they perform.

[JustTheTips]

No it is trivial. You just pull an Ian Poultier and you don't play any handicap events for 3 years despite the fact your constantly working on your game. Your game drops 5 strokes but you card handicap stays the same. And then since it takes forever for your handicap to drop, you get to go out and dominate for a full season.



[quote name='Craglyboy' timestamp='1389136831' post='8418267']
[quote name='JustTheTips' timestamp='1389106712' post='8414947']
Both systems have flaws. Google around and you will find complaints about sandbagging and vanity caps with both systems. People that want to cheat will cheat. The UK system takes a lot longer to respond to changes. You can view that is a good or a bad thing. Personally I think it leads to unintentional vanity caps and sandbagging.


[/quote]

I can see the vanity caps as a disadvantage we had a net 58 score in a tourney a couple of months back and the guy hasn't come anywhere near replicating that form, but sandbagging is almost impossible in the uk. You can only go up a maximum of 0.1 per round even if you NR. Seeing as if your a higher handicapper and go down 0.4 per shot under CSS your gonna trend downwards and the fact of the matter is at the higher handicaps you would rather have vanity capers than sandbaggers, at the lower handicaps your handicap can only go down 0.1 per shot under CSS.
[/quote]

[Craglyboy]

[quote name='JustTheTips' timestamp='1389302868' post='8430253']
No it is trivial. You just pull an Ian Poultier and you don't play any handicap events for 3 years despite the fact your constantly working on your game. Your game drops 5 strokes but you card handicap stays the same. And then since it takes forever for your handicap to drop, you get to go out and dominate for a full season.



[quote name='Craglyboy' timestamp='1389136831' post='8418267']
[quote name='JustTheTips' timestamp='1389106712' post='8414947']
Both systems have flaws. Google around and you will find complaints about sandbagging and vanity caps with both systems. People that want to cheat will cheat. The UK system takes a lot longer to respond to changes. You can view that is a good or a bad thing. Personally I think it leads to unintentional vanity caps and sandbagging.


[/quote]

I can see the vanity caps as a disadvantage we had a net 58 score in a tourney a couple of months back and the guy hasn't come anywhere near replicating that form, but sandbagging is almost impossible in the uk. You can only go up a maximum of 0.1 per round even if you NR. Seeing as if your a higher handicapper and go down 0.4 per shot under CSS your gonna trend downwards and the fact of the matter is at the higher handicaps you would rather have vanity capers than sandbaggers, at the lower handicaps your handicap can only go down 0.1 per shot under CSS.
[/quote]
[/quote]

Apart from the fact handicaps in the uk are closely regulated. As a category 1 golfer his handicap is controlled directly by the egu and not just the club he is a member of. To keep an active handicap you are required to post 3 competitive rounds in egu qualifiers within a calendar year, if you do not do this your handicap becomes inactive, once this happens you can enter tournaments but are unable to win any prizes. It becomes active again once 3 rounds have been posted and your handicap will be adjusted accordingly.

The only thing about our system I don't like is that as a low handicap it's hard to reduce your handicap. But if your a higher handicap egg a category 4 handicap (18-28) your handicap goes down by .4 per shot under par so it is hard to sandbag as your handicap can only go up by .1. When I first got a handicap it was 21 my first cut was from 21 to 11 so you can get cut quickly just not at the lower caps.

[thug the bunny]

To answer the OP question, I will hit the 'EASY' button: WHO CARES?

Why do vanity cappers bother people? Never could get that one. Either take their money and be happy, or just chuckle internally while you hit good shots. Either way, why would it bother you?

[JustTheTips]

I am being a bit facetious. The point is that under any system people are always going to be complaining about handicaps and some of them will have a legit complaint. The US has the huge advantage of people being able to post a lot of rounds. The downside of course is that you post a lot of rounds that are not remotely under "tournament conditions". In the UK system people don't post as many rounds but those rounds are all under more standard conditions. You need to pick you poison.


[quote name='Craglyboy' timestamp='1389312504' post='8431319']


Apart from the fact handicaps in the uk are closely regulated. As a category 1 golfer his handicap is controlled directly by the egu and not just the club he is a member of. To keep an active handicap you are required to post 3 competitive rounds in egu qualifiers within a calendar year, if you do not do this your handicap becomes inactive, once this happens you can enter tournaments but are unable to win any prizes. It becomes active again once 3 rounds have been posted and your handicap will be adjusted accordingly.

The only thing about our system I don't like is that as a low handicap it's hard to reduce your handicap. But if your a higher handicap egg a category 4 handicap (18-28) your handicap goes down by .4 per shot under par so it is hard to sandbag as your handicap can only go up by .1. When I first got a handicap it was 21 my first cut was from 21 to 11 so you can get cut quickly just not at the lower caps.
[/quote]

[jed6293]

Gotta love that!!!

It is an ego thing. They want to say that they are really good, so they can play blades and tour balls, also so that they can brag at the club that they are in the championship flight.

The best way to deal with those guys is to play them (for money, lunch..etc) and play with your handicap..No doubt you will win, and they might realize they arent that good.

Expection: some guys have a bad round but I rarely played with a scratch who has shotted more then 10 over par, even on the hardest of courses

[TMBob]

More then we realize because the wanta be's get all our attention because what a joke they are. I know a +4 who rarely shoots 75 or lower and those are his best scores....most are 82-86.....most of it is mental though.....he should be a solid 3-4 but that's not who he is

[isaacbm]

[quote name='thug the bunny' timestamp='1389315630' post='8431671']
To answer the OP question, I will hit the 'EASY' button: WHO CARES?

Why do vanity cappers bother people? Never could get that one. Either take their money and be happy, or just chuckle internally while you hit good shots. Either way, why would it bother you?
[/quote]Here's an example of why: Last year in Provincial Open qualifying, I got paired with a nice your kid that was fairly new to competitive golf. He trades cards with this vanity cap that shouldn't have been in the field. The young guy ends up missing the cut off score by 2 because all day long he s trying to keep track of this other idiot that is on his way to a 101. Seriously, 101!! Hes trying to help him with drops, rulings, etiquette, etc. and he gets completely caught up in it because he doesn't really know better. The 101 shooter was in as a 1. The guy couldnèt break 85 with an eraser!

That's a reason that people care.

[mark m]

Isaac nailed it. I have friends who have had similar experiences is qualifiers and it can be a nightmare. What can add to it is being told your group is behind - and to pick it up when it isn't your fault.

Another reason to care is accurate handicaps (or handicaps at least close to accurate) helps to build participation over time. Inaccurate tends to destory participation over time - whether it be sandbagging or vanity caps. A common format for clubs is to have a few tournaments each year which are 4-man team formats and teams are chosen at randon after players are separated into ABCD flights. The format is often a best ball of some type and if you get a vanity cap on your team - you basically have no chance. This makes for a bad experince for all and can hurt future participation. (Exact opposite of what you are trying to accomplish.)

Feel good story: About 15 years ago a friend of mine first started playing in our club and our smaller group game that plays a few times a week. He was early 20's and an 8 hdcp at the time. He went up to 23 hdcp in a year or so. He was working on his game and going the wrong way, but his beginning hdcp was not accurate at all. Also helped that he now played by the rules and putted out. And his scores were real scores. He worked very hard and greatly improved over the next 5-8 years. About 5 years ago he was down to scratch or +1 and was a member of a team that won a state gross score tournament. Quite an accomplishment.

[Jones01]

According to my HDCP I am a scratch golfer. I mainly play one course and have learned to play it fairly well. When I go to other courses I either shoot a great score (even par or a couple under) or I shoot between 5 and 8 over. Depends on how tough the course is. My issue is I keep a pretty decent record of my scores but I try and not enter the really low scores unless they are a tournament round. Because I live in Canada and basically start golfing around March and end my season in September I honestly start to play good golf in Mid August and September. Just in time for the weather to turn and for me to put the clubs away. By the time I bring the clubs out in Feb to March I am pretty cold and it takes a while to get shooting good golf again.

If I was to play numerous courses I think my HDCP would be more around the 1 to 3 range so I maintain that I am a 2 HDCP for most of the season. I don't win any net prizes at that HDCP. I usually might win the odd mens night if I shoot a couple under on nine holes.

So my HDCP Shows I am a scratch but honestly I think I am a couple over a scratch golfer. Just my opinion too.

[scottishpedro]

To clarify, do you have to decide before a round whether the score will definitely be entered for handicap purposes or do some people not bother depending on how good/bad the score is at the end?

[tinytim]

[quote name='scottishpedro' timestamp='1389397055' post='8438183']
To clarify, do you have to decide before a round whether the score will definitely be entered for handicap purposes or do some people not bother depending on how good/bad the score is at the end?
[/quote]
in middle europe, like UK or germany: yes!

you play in handicap-tournaments, where your score goes lowers or increments it
or you can play EDS-rounds (extra day scores) on your homecourse. say you think you have a good day, youll register in the office. but somebody needs to score you. you cant score yourself (like in tournament). then you have to return the scorecard and its valueing your handicap.

all other rounds we play are for fun. not related.
i like that. there are courses where we play "harakiri". just drive everything and have fun. drive par3s, play lefthanded or do other stuff. why should these rounds go into our handicap?
even our homecourse (short one) we play driver for fun. no hole requires more as 5iron for me.... but try to drive the 330yd green with wind from behind is fun. in tournaments we would never do that. hey - these are fun rounds. we dont need to count. we can drop wherever we want. we can throw balls into the water to splash them out. and drive 150yd par threes . love it

[RRFireblade]

[quote name='scottishpedro' timestamp='1389397055' post='8438183']
To clarify, do you have to decide before a round whether the score will definitely be entered for handicap purposes or do some people not bother depending on how good/bad the score is at the end?
[/quote]

That would technically be "illegal" and/or unethical.

Well...it would definitely be unethical.

[backtees]

[quote name='tinytim' timestamp='1389398096' post='8438265']
[quote name='scottishpedro' timestamp='1389397055' post='8438183']
To clarify, do you have to decide before a round whether the score will definitely be entered for handicap purposes or do some people not bother depending on how good/bad the score is at the end?
[/quote]
in middle europe, like UK or germany: yes!

you play in handicap-tournaments, where your score goes lowers or increments it
or you can play EDS-rounds (extra day scores) on your homecourse. say you think you have a good day, youll register in the office. but somebody needs to score you. you cant score yourself (like in tournament). then you have to return the scorecard and its valueing your handicap.

all other rounds we play are for fun. not related.
i like that. there are courses where we play "harakiri". just drive everything and have fun. drive par3s, play lefthanded or do other stuff. why should these rounds go into our handicap?
even our homecourse (short one) we play driver for fun. no hole requires more as 5iron for me.... but try to drive the 330yd green with wind from behind is fun. in tournaments we would never do that. hey - these are fun rounds. we dont need to count. we can drop wherever we want. we can throw balls into the water to splash them out. and drive 150yd par threes . love it
[/quote]

EDS is a nice idea - in theory. But: over HCPers over 4.4. the number od EDS-round is not limited and you can play as many EDS-rounds per year as you want (at least in my country) and you can play such a round on every course, not only your home-course.

The real negative thing about it: imagine 3 or 4 buddies playing an EDS-round on a really tough and therefor high-rated course, the write each other 48 stableford points and their handicaps drop from lets's say 10 to 8.8. Then they do it again, write again 46 points and the HCP drops to 7.8. And another round with 46 points and the HCP drops again to 6.8. Three rounds with buddies and your HCP drops from 10 to 6.8.

EDS = a good idea but a huge field for cheating. That's why there a commitee in our country which analyzes all the EDS-rounds and tournament-results and has to power to adjust the handicap of a player.

[scottishpedro]

[quote name='tinytim' timestamp='1389398096' post='8438265']
[quote name='scottishpedro' timestamp='1389397055' post='8438183']
To clarify, do you have to decide before a round whether the score will definitely be entered for handicap purposes or do some people not bother depending on how good/bad the score is at the end?
[/quote]
in middle europe, like UK or germany: yes!

you play in handicap-tournaments, where your score goes lowers or increments it
or you can play EDS-rounds (extra day scores) on your homecourse. say you think you have a good day, youll register in the office. but somebody needs to score you. you cant score yourself (like in tournament). then you have to return the scorecard and its valueing your handicap.

all other rounds we play are for fun. not related.
i like that. there are courses where we play "harakiri". just drive everything and have fun. drive par3s, play lefthanded or do other stuff. why should these rounds go into our handicap?
even our homecourse (short one) we play driver for fun. no hole requires more as 5iron for me.... but try to drive the 330yd green with wind from behind is fun. in tournaments we would never do that. hey - these are fun rounds. we dont need to count. we can drop wherever we want. we can throw balls into the water to splash them out. and drive 150yd par threes . love it
[/quote]

Sorry, I should have stated the question was aimed at the US golfers, I'm from the UK. EDS scores (known as supplementary scores here) are not permitted from category 1 golfers in the UK.

[backtees]

[quote name='scottishpedro' timestamp='1389427362' post='8440255']
[quote name='tinytim' timestamp='1389398096' post='8438265']
[quote name='scottishpedro' timestamp='1389397055' post='8438183']
To clarify, do you have to decide before a round whether the score will definitely be entered for handicap purposes or do some people not bother depending on how good/bad the score is at the end?
[/quote]
in middle europe, like UK or germany: yes!

you play in handicap-tournaments, where your score goes lowers or increments it
or you can play EDS-rounds (extra day scores) on your homecourse. say you think you have a good day, youll register in the office. but somebody needs to score you. you cant score yourself (like in tournament). then you have to return the scorecard and its valueing your handicap.

all other rounds we play are for fun. not related.
i like that. there are courses where we play "harakiri". just drive everything and have fun. drive par3s, play lefthanded or do other stuff. why should these rounds go into our handicap?
even our homecourse (short one) we play driver for fun. no hole requires more as 5iron for me.... but try to drive the 330yd green with wind from behind is fun. in tournaments we would never do that. hey - these are fun rounds. we dont need to count. we can drop wherever we want. we can throw balls into the water to splash them out. and drive 150yd par threes . love it
[/quote]

Sorry, I should have stated the question was aimed at the US golfers, I'm from the UK. EDS scores (known as supplementary scores here) are not permitted from category 1 golfers in the UK.
[/quote]

EDS is not permitted for category 1 golfers in whole Europe if I am correct.

[BrianL99]

[quote name='Jones01' timestamp='1389396918' post='8438171']
According to my HDCP I am a scratch golfer. I mainly play one course and have learned to play it fairly well. When I go to other courses I either shoot a great score (even par or a couple under) or I shoot between 5 and 8 over. Depends on how tough the course is. My issue is I keep a pretty decent record of my scores but I try and not enter the really low scores unless they are a tournament round. Because I live in Canada and basically start golfing around March and end my season in September I honestly start to play good golf in Mid August and September. Just in time for the weather to turn and for me to put the clubs away. By the time I bring the clubs out in Feb to March I am pretty cold and it takes a while to get shooting good golf again.

[/quote]

Doesn't Canada use the same Handicap system as the US, which requires all scores to be posted?

[Obee]

Indexes/handicaps are interesting things. I'll give you a personal story that illustrates it perfectly. I'm a legit scratch golfer with some nice finishes on my resume in some nice amateur tournaments. I've been in Golfweek Magazine twice for a 3rd in the four-round Pasadena City back in 2006(?) with rounds of 71, 70, 72, 74, and for a 3rd in the 2005 SCGA Mid-Am at North Ranch Country Club where I shot 73, 69, 69. I could play some decent golf back then, and my index hovered between +2 and +3.5 in the summer and fall, but I'm not as good now. I'm 46 and I have a bit of the yips in my putting and short game and I tend to cave under pressure lately. That said, my low index last year was a +1.7 due to a few nice casual rounds with friends where I shot 4 and 5-under and then some solid par rounds on my home course from the black tees, which is rated 75.7 and sloped at 146.

Last year I played in the Carlton Woods Invitational in Houston Texas on the Fazio course. I shot 80, 76, 72. The course is ~7350 yards and rated 76.1 and sloped 142(?) We played the course pretty much all the way back every round with only a couple tees each day moved up a tee (just like they do at most courses on the PGA Tour). The winner shot around even par for the three days, maybe a couple under. Now if you had watched me shoot 80, you would have thought there was no way I was a "scratch" golfer. I chunked two chips and hit several really lose shots, including a water ball from 160 out. The 72, though, was a near flawless round (for me) I hit 15 greens and played very, very solid golf. At 46 years old and only hitting driver 260ish, a score of even par on a ~7300/76.1/142) is well below scratch. We "scratch" golfers are not professionals. We are working men. I have a full-time job, and I just can't be as consistent as I want to be. when I play well, though, I can golf my ball. Catch me on an "off" day, though, and you'd think I was a nice 4 or 5 handicapper. That's the nature of the handicap system and, when you really think about it, the nature of golf itself.

[tinytim]

[quote name='backtees' timestamp='1389425879' post='8440223']
[quote name='tinytim' timestamp='1389398096' post='8438265']
[quote name='scottishpedro' timestamp='1389397055' post='8438183']
To clarify, do you have to decide before a round whether the score will definitely be entered for handicap purposes or do some people not bother depending on how good/bad the score is at the end?
[/quote]
in middle europe, like UK or germany: yes!

you play in handicap-tournaments, where your score goes lowers or increments it
or you can play EDS-rounds (extra day scores) on your homecourse. say you think you have a good day, youll register in the office. but somebody needs to score you. you cant score yourself (like in tournament). then you have to return the scorecard and its valueing your handicap.

all other rounds we play are for fun. not related.
i like that. there are courses where we play "harakiri". just drive everything and have fun. drive par3s, play lefthanded or do other stuff. why should these rounds go into our handicap?
even our homecourse (short one) we play driver for fun. no hole requires more as 5iron for me.... but try to drive the 330yd green with wind from behind is fun. in tournaments we would never do that. hey - these are fun rounds. we dont need to count. we can drop wherever we want. we can throw balls into the water to splash them out. and drive 150yd par threes . love it
[/quote]

EDS is a nice idea - in theory. But: over HCPers over 4.4. the number od EDS-round is not limited and you can play as many EDS-rounds per year as you want (at least in my country) and you can play such a round on every course, not only your home-course.

The real negative thing about it: imagine 3 or 4 buddies playing an EDS-round on a really tough and therefor high-rated course, the write each other 48 stableford points and their handicaps drop from lets's say 10 to 8.8. Then they do it again, write again 46 points and the HCP drops to 7.8. And another round with 46 points and the HCP drops again to 6.8. Three rounds with buddies and your HCP drops from 10 to 6.8.

EDS = a good idea but a huge field for cheating. That's why there a commitee in our country which analyzes all the EDS-rounds and tournament-results and has to power to adjust the handicap of a player.
[/quote]


maybe i am a naive baby - i honestly can't imagine that somebody is doing it. i also never saw somebody cheating, wrong dropping or whatever in (my few) tournaments. i would always be honest to myself. all these cheating storys i heard in interwebz are so crazy. i just can't imagine, untill ill see it first time in life

that would be mindblowing for me :/