How many scratch players are TRUELY scratch players ????

[OrangeCrush]

I am a mid teen hdcp and I just tell people "I am the 15hdcp who will throw a 81 or a 101 at you depending on the day!" Lets see who shows up today!

[somaplr]

If someone who has a vanity cap as says they are scratch or anywhere close...that is fine with me. I don't look down on them for it, I enjoy it. I'm a 1 hdcp & we don't give or take strokes in our weekend money games. If you don't want in, don't get in. Anything can happen, even to a scratch golfer on any given day.

Either that or they have no idea what a handicap means.

Some guys don't have handicaps that travel well. I had a client of mine that was a club champion at a local municipal course shoot at 91 during the wreakin' member-guest at my club that has a 74.3 141 rating. He had a legitimate 0.4 handicap.

Just about every scratch golfer I play with busts thru 80 once in awhile. Heck, the PRO'S hit the high 70's sometime.

[fore_life]

I'm a 4 cap currently, but looking back at my scores when it was scratch/+1, I still had a few rounds in the 80's. but I played like 6 days a week and had alot more good rounds to offset those bad ones. These days, not so much haha.

I've played with scratch Golfers who got there by shooting consistently the same number, or dudes who would throw up either par rounds or a high number, you never really knew who was gonna show up

[j70]

[quote name='ProBowler' timestamp='1369970661' post='7140540']
But these guys do it so they can tell all their buddies that they are scratch and play in US Am and US Open qualifiers !!!

Ego
[/quote]
Not for long if they shoot those scores in qualifying. USGA will send them a letter.

[tekman]

I have two buddies, Mike and Tony. Mike was a legit Scratch golfer. Took lessons from Manuel De Latorre. Good player, tried turning pro and getting enough money to try the Canadian tour. We played lots of rounds with our buddies and with no practice or warmup, he'd routinely shoot between 67 and 74. Had a beautiful swing like DLIII.

My buddy Tony on the other hand was jealous as hell of Mike and always claimed to be a 2 handicap. He was a 2 like I was a 2, freaking cheater. He was a legit 7-8. Hell, one year I beat him 6 rounds in a row. To this day I don't let him live that down. He would routinely dropping balls just inside the OB line when we saw him pull hook it 20 yards OB. writing down pars when we know he made bogey. All so he could post decent scores to get his handicap close to Mike's. Retaking shots from the fairway and writing down the better shore, not the real score.

He tried playing Mike one day for money and bragging rights. Mike hadn't played in like 6 weeks, due to his wife having a kid. I caddied for Mike, we smoked him by like 10 shots. 74-84 playing Brown Deer Golf course in Milwaukee. That 2 HC shot a nice +12 that day.

Moral-there are douches out there that will claim to be scratch or really close to it, so they can look bigger and more important than they are and they will fold like a cheap suit when the pressure is on!! Just like Tony.

I'm happy with my accurate claim to be a 10. I don't practice enough, don't get to play enough and I'll go out and shoot my 8-12 over par and drink my beers with my buds and realize that for me, it's just a game and not a means to look better than anyone else. Oh, and I never play for money. I can't afford to be broke!

[wobgon]

[quote name='golferday' timestamp='1369980492' post='7141232']
I say about 1% or less score even par after 10rounds of golf. People lie about distance as well. I out drove EVERY guy who claim to drive 300+ and I average about 285.
[/quote]
What??????????????

[twoody40]

Yes, it's true, bad days happen to everyone. However, there are those who embellish their accomplishments. One quasi-regular player at our club claims to be a 2 index. I've played several rounds with him and he's never broken 80 and rarely even gotten close to it. He's always got an excuse. I'm about an 8 right now and I handle it by demanding that he give me strokes when we play. He hates to do it, but if he doesn't, then his facade is busted. I've never failed to take money from him.

I mentioned it to a couple other members and they all just laugh. His secret is out and he's become sort of a running joke. I would not want that reputation.

[Jamboy72]

I'm kind of wondering what the OP means by truly scratch?? I ask that b/c people often have different pictures in their minds when the term "scratch golfer" is used...By the strict HC definition, it is simply someone who has 10 of the previous 20 scores which average approximately the course rating...While I do think any honest scratch golfer is clearly in the very top percentile of golfers in the world, I also think that people who don't know better assume that scratch is basically someone who could be competing at some level and likely making $$

[golferday]

[quote name='wobgon' timestamp='1370051669' post='7147064']
[quote name='golferday' timestamp='1369980492' post='7141232']
I say about 1% or less score even par after 10rounds of golf. People lie about distance as well. I out drove EVERY guy who claim to drive 300+ and I average about 285.
[/quote]
What??????????????
[/quote]
what's up?

[italianstallion]

[quote name='Jamboy72' timestamp='1370054478' post='7147402']
I'm kind of wondering what the OP means by truly scratch?? I ask that b/c people often have different pictures in their minds when the term "scratch golfer" is used...By the strict HC definition, it is simply someone who has 10 of the previous 20 scores which average approximately the course rating...While I do think any honest scratch golfer is clearly in the very top percentile of golfers in the world, I also think that people who don't know better assume that scratch is basically someone who could be competing at some level and likely making $$
[/quote]

This. Scratch doesn't mean pro. Scratch means you can shoot par enough times when you play that you're a 0 HC (or close to it). When we worked at the golf course, my buddies and I were scratch golfers: we'd shoot par or a couple under a few times, but that's not to say we never shot low 80's either. There's a fine line between shooting a good score and shooting a bad one, and it doesn't take much to shoot 70 one day and 80 the next.

As for the whole qualifier thing: I did a US Amateur qualifier a few years back. I put up two scores in the low 80s on a course I hadn't played before. I didn't get a letter but I haven't played in a qualifier since. I have continued to play in tournaments, and over the past three years my scores have been anywhere from 69 all the way up to 85. The difference between those two scores, and all the scores in between comes down to mindset. What was my confidence like those days? Was I looking at fairways and greens or looking at OB and water hazards in front of the greens? It has nothing to do with my swing, and everything to do with whats going on between my ears. I'll be the first to admit I'm not as good a tournament player as I am when I'm playing a $5 Nassau with my buddies.

[dssmith]

I know a guy who runs around telling people that he is scratch . He never speaks about it in our group but every time we come across someone that knows him they say the same thing. He is no way near scratch...one day he went out in a skins game and shot a 78 on the front side. He left on the turn....

[Parker0065]

I don't have a problem with vanity caps, they always get washed out in any kind of competition and as others have said, better than dealing with a sandbagger.

I'm a little amazed that there are scratch golfers out there that could let a round get away so badly or completely forget how to play golf on a given day but I have seen some ugliness like the OP described. I think the answer lies in what some have said already and that is not all scratch golfers are created equal.

Here's an example of two different players and how they reach scratch.

Player A) Grows up playing a lot of junior golf tournaments and develops into a solid player on their High School/College team scoring well on different types of courses. Is a scratch player by their late teens/ early twenties. Studies the game and swing theory and learns to control their ball flight. Settles down with a family and non-golfing career but maintains his game and has the length and ballstriking ability to shoot par on courses up to 7200 yards. Wins a number of Club/City Championships and plays in the occasional State/County Open or US Open Qualifier.

Player B) A good all around athlete playing baseball/football growing up and loves to compete. Takes up the game of golf in college or later in life and has a group of buddies he plays with on a regular basis. Not a great ball striker but has one little cut fade shot he can repeat over and over as long as he doesn't try to kill the ball. Plays on a relatively short course of 6200-6400 yards and with a halfway decent short game and his little cut fade he can post just enough rounds under par playing with his buddies to reach scratch. If there's not much competition at his home course he may be able to string together a number of club championships in a row and become the "Big fish in the little pond". He has a lot of confidence on his home course and in his mind truly believes if he would have taken up the game as a child he would have made it to the PGA Tour.

So Player B's buddies convince him to sign up for the County Open where he gets paired with Player A on a 7000 yard semi tough course. On the first tee Player A is feeling the butterflies in his stomach but knows through his experience that this is completely normal and once that first tee shot is hit it's game on. Player B is feeling like he's about to throw up because he's never played in a tournament this big and is feeling pressure that he's never experienced before on the golf course.
Player A's first tee shot is not his best due to the butterflies but catches it solid enough to find the fairway 265 yards out. Player B dead tops it and starts the round off with a big fat double. Over the next few holes Player A's swing smoothes out and he puts a few solid drives out there in the 280 range, 20-30 yards ahead of Player B. Player B decides to abandon his little cut fade and swing for the fences to catch up to Player A on this course that is much longer than what he is use to. His tee ball goes O.B. and it pretty much goes down hill from there for Player B.
At the end of the round Player A posts a disappointing 75 and goes to the practice green to get in some much needed short game practice. Player B posts a 96 and is sitting in the bar trying to figure out what just happened!

My example was a combination of a couple different experiences I've witnessed in tournaments over the years playing with other low handicap/scratch golfers(and yes, I was player A, lol). Most good players I've competed against are not like Player B, but there are a few out there. Some of it's vanity and some of it's lack of experience or some combination of the two.

Bottom line is you can't put a price on tournament experience! Pressure will make the best untested golfers crumble. But, thats how you learn to deal with it. Shoot your 96, lick your wounds, work hard on your game and get back on the horse.

[Smiley_Face]

[quote name='JJK947' timestamp='1369967170' post='7140180']
People don't realize that scratch just means the average of your BEST HALF of you scores is equal to the course rating. I am currently at +1.7 but does that mean I am shooting under par every time I get on the course? Absolutely not. On my good days I am at or below the course rating, on my bad days, who knows because it really doesn't matter in this handicap system. Heck, I shot 85 waking up at 5 am and playing in the rain and cold the other week in a tournament, I guess I'm not a real scratch then? Amateur golfers also tend to play the same one or two courses a majority of the time so you'll find that a lot of guys' handicaps "don't travel well." There's a far greater likelihood that I am going to put up a low score on my home course during a casual round in conditions that are favorable to me. And most of my posted scores are just that.
[/quote]

I think you are correct and additionally, most of us play courses we play well and score well on. So when we go to a different course that may not suit our game, we can look a bit silly at times. And if you play this game, you are going to look silly from time to time.

[ricar1610]

I am almost scratch (.5) and last season I was up and down. In the PHX city AM I shot 77, 71 (rating 72.8), and 75 (rating 75 at Papago). So I can post legitimate scratch numbers in tournaments. The next month I posted 90 and 81 in the AGA Stroke Play. I played terrible and had some bad breaks. It's golf. I am the golf equivalent to a streaky hitter. I may go 0-12 with 10 strike outs, but the next week I will hit 5 HR's and knock in 15. I don't practice a lot but I play in tournaments and play occasionally on the weekend at my local muni. I have the talent to light it up or the rustiness to look bad. With our handicap system, I can go a few months without playing so when I come back I shoot some ok to bad scores. But by the time my good scores are about to exit the system, I am playing good again so the HC stays relatively low. All it takes for me is 4-5 good scores out of 20 and I can stay around 1 or 2 most of the time. I would not consider myself to be a vanity cap, but I could see someone thinking that if they saw me play last April. It was god awful. But if you had seen me play in the PHX city you would have said this guy is pretty decent.

I can see both sides of it.

But I also think you can tell when someone is having a bad day by the way they swing and the way they carry themselves. Guys that hit it marginally and make excuses tell me one thing. Guys that have a nice ball flight but can't make a putt tell me a different story. I think you can tell a "real scratch" player by watching them play. Talent is hard to hide.

[MtlJeff]

How many golfwrx posters are TRULY employees of a big OEM when they say they are?

[richard t]

Like a lot of others have said, if you shoot 10 solid scores out of 20, play regularly, and you're playing the same course for, say, 80% of your golf you should be at least a single digit. Now put that same golfer on a 200 yd+ longer course and the scores are going up not coming down. I turn in my scores, honestly and completely. By the rules. Put me somewhere a lot longer, no local knowledge and I'll give you an 85 easily. Scratch to me means someone who can navigate any course-yardage and still stay under 78 or at least 80. Real scratch players? You know one when you see them.

[Mitchell]

I have found that many 'scratch' players that I have played with have a large deviation in scores and don't seem to have a reliable shot under pressure. Have one playing partner that we call 'microwave' in honor of former Detroit Pistons guard Vinny Johnson, when on hot streak look out, when cold- look out as well.because still going for every low percentage shot.

[Mitchell]

[quote name='MtlJeff' timestamp='1387988263' post='8346957']
How many golfwrx posters are TRULY employees of a big OEM when they say they are?
[/quote]
BOOM!

[Jamboy72]

[quote name='MtlJeff' timestamp='1387988263' post='8346957']
How many golfwrx posters are TRULY employees of a big OEM when they say they are?
[/quote]

I see what you did there....crafty!

[TVGM]

< .05% with indexes of zero or lower.

[robnplunder]

I don't think inaccuracy in handicap applies only to scratch golfers. I recently played a two day tournament. There were 76 players and just about everyone played [b]way over[/b] their handicap. Most of them have never seen the two courses we played. But that does not explain why only one player played to even par (net). I played just 8 over my handicap in those two rounds. Others were 20, 30, and even 60 over their handicap for the two rounds.

[Fourmyle of Ceres]

It is possible to have an "official" USGA Handicap Index with absolutely no peer review at all. Just sign up at one of any number of online or green-grass handicap granting organizations and start posting numbers. You'll get an index.

If you post enough low scores you'll be a +1.5 handicap or whatever you like. Since there is no attesting required for any posted scores, it can be just a made-up number if you like.

[nickb98]

[quote name='ProBowler' timestamp='1369968171' post='7140290']
[quote name='JJK947' timestamp='1369967170' post='7140180']
People don't realize that scratch just means the average of your BEST HALF of you scores is equal to the course rating. I am currently at +1.7 but does that mean I am shooting under par every time I get on the course? Absolutely not. On my good days I am at or below the course rating, on my bad days, who knows because it really doesn't matter in this handicap system. Heck, I shot 85 waking up at 5 am and playing in the rain and cold the other week in a tournament, I guess I'm not a real scratch then? Amateur golfers also tend to play the same one or two courses a majority of the time so you'll find that a lot of guys' handicaps "don't travel well." There's a far greater likelihood that I am going to put up a low score on my home course during a casual round in conditions that are favorable to me. And most of my posted scores are just that.
[/quote]

But honestly ....... You could tell by their swings that they were not even close to being scratch
[/quote]+1 if you have any golf perception you should be able to tell if they are a good player or not... just look at the forum discussing "how you can tell a good by what's in their bag"

[Bingo1976]

I played in the A draw of a recent 2 day comp - basically 6-0 handicaps. Was paired with a couple of locals, all of us off 6. I shot 82 after an epic 5 dropped shots on the last 2 holes. The other 2 shot mid 80s. The last guy had clearly made up a handicap just to play with his mate. I'd say he was a solid 18 handicap at best, having a bad day.

He had no place in our four ball. Luckily, I am used to playing with tossers, what with having been one my entire life, so it didn't bother me too much, but to the 5 groups behind us who experienced our 5:45 hour round, it was probably less fun...

[agray94]

It seems like most golfers who are truly scratch, aren't rated as scratch because they tank to keep their handicap a little higher to help in competitions. It also seems that too many rated as scratch aren't because they fib the other way for ego..or to get in tourneys that don't belong in.
either way there seems to be way too much of it.

[RRFireblade]

I am Elmer J. Fudd, [i]millionaire[/i]. I own a mansion and a yacht.

[devinh821]

I scratch my head a lot of shots.. So I'm somewhat of a scratch golfer right??

[BTP]

[quote name='richard t' timestamp='1388000701' post='8347609']
Like a lot of others have said, if you shoot 10 solid scores out of 20, play regularly, and you're playing the same course for, say, 80% of your golf you should be at least a single digit. Now put that same golfer on a 200 yd+ longer course and the scores are going up not coming down. I turn in my scores, honestly and completely. By the rules. Put me somewhere a lot longer, no local knowledge and I'll give you an 85 easily. Scratch to me means someone who can navigate any course-yardage and still stay under 78 or at least 80. Real scratch players? You know one when you see them.
[/quote]

Yes, definitely.
It's very clear that a "scratch" golfer is a loose term. It is apparent that it depends whose lens you're looking through too. My friends think I am a scratch golfer because I shoot par or better at a local course that plays less than 6,000yrds from the tips every time. Whereas I play to a 6.5 at my home course, which averages about 6,400yrds. One could then conclude that a particular player with the same handicap playing their 7000+yrds course is a better player than the golfer playing their 6200yrds course, but that very well may not be the case.
A legitimate scratch to me has to have tournament experience with scores posted from all sorts of different course layouts with an overall average score 70-72, which is the normal par for any course -- And that's including all posted rounds.
Anybody with the aim of playing more competitively can establish a good handicap at their local courses in order to qualify for PGA type qualifiers. A true scratch golfer posts low scores during casual rounds and competitive tournament rounds with very little deviation above that 70-72 shot range. That is my definition of a "scratch" golfer, even though technically they would be a USGA + handicap.

[Bogie_Nights]

[quote name='nochrome' timestamp='1388001744' post='8347655']
[quote name='MtlJeff' timestamp='1387988263' post='8346957']
How many golfwrx posters are TRULY employees of a big OEM when they say they are?
[/quote]
BOOM!
[/quote]

My 14 year old son always says "... ohhhh, shots fired!...."

Is it in regards to something like Jeff's barb?

[scottishpedro]

[quote name='BTP' timestamp='1388425553' post='8368113']
Yes, definitely.
It's very clear that a "scratch" golfer is a loose term. It is apparent that it depends whose lens you're looking through too. My friends think I am a scratch golfer because I shoot par or better at a local course that plays less than 6,000yrds from the tips every time. Whereas I play to a 6.5 at my home course, which averages about 6,400yrds. One could then conclude that a particular player with the same handicap playing their 7000+yrds course is a better player than the golfer playing their 6200yrds course, but that very well may not be the case.
A true scratch golfer posts low scores during casual rounds and competitive tournament rounds with very little deviation above that 70-72 shot range. That is my definition of a "scratch" golfer, even though technically they would be a USGA + handicap.
[/quote]

The UK handicapping system is very different to the US system. From what I have read, your handicap in the US is based on the average of your best 50% of recent scores? Do you have a competition standard scratch, i.e. does the course rating adjust on the day for weather conditions? Does the course rating/difficulty/length get taken into acount?

As an example of how it works in the UK, I'll use my home course as an example. Carnoustie has 3 courses. The championship course (the famous one) is a par 72. It has been rated as a standard scratch 75, I.e a scratch handicapper should score 75 to play to the handicap as per the card. In reality, the standard scratch changes depending on how people score on the day; this is usually influenced by weather conditions, pin positions and rough length etc. At Carnoustie the competiton standard scratch almost always goes up, so on an average day in the summer the wind will be around 20-25mph and the competition standard scratch will often be 77.

The shortest of the courses at Carnoustie is the Buddon, it's currently a par 66. This favours the higher handicaps because it is shorter and there is less trouble. For me (1 hancicap) the championship course is much easier to play to handicap than the Buddon due or the higher standard scratch, so in generel the lounge and more difficult courses offer more opportunity to shoot a scratch round than the easier courses. Is this the case in the US or will many scratch players play primarily at shorter/easier courses?

Cheers

Pete