Putting in 2019 - Flagstick in or out?

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  • A.PrinceyA.Princey Major Hacker Members Posts: 2,197 ✭✭
    edited Jan 5, 2019 9:47pm #422
    The supposition upon establishing the new rule states that the ball is equally as likely to be holed as it is to ricochet off the flag and miss. If there's a marked discrepancy in the statistical data towards ANYONE'S advantage, and the "trouble-maker" of the tour(who's already been closely scrutinized by rules officials) is one of the first few beneficiaries, they won't be pleased. Player bias will play a huge roll in this before it's all decided in the end.



    If putting stats improve across the board, for all flag-in participants, they won't allow it. Plain and simple, I don't see what's so difficult to understand here?
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  • ThinkingPlusThinkingPlus South TexasClubWRX Posts: 1,582 ClubWRX
    nsxguy wrote:

    A.Princey wrote:


    Well, if history holds true, the USGA will continue to watch Bryson like a hawk and any statistical advantage he is scheming to obtain will soon be rectified. Putting with the flagstick in may be a short-lived "experiment".




    If history holds true ?



    60+(?) years ago they changed the rule so that you could leave the pin IN and after a dozen years changed it back to having to pull it.



    Now they've decided to allow it to be left in again.



    Don't you think the USGA and R&A would look pretty silly if, after they did all this research, they changed their minds after a month or 2 ? A year or 2 ?



    I'd suggest not holding one's breath.


    Now, now no matter what happens with the pin in/out the RBs pretty much always look silly these days. I think it's part of their hidden mission statement.
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  • ObeeObee ClubWRX Posts: 3,726 ClubWRX
    edited Jan 6, 2019 12:53pm #424
    First round today with the new rules. We played with the flag IN on pretty much all first putts outside 20 feet. It absolutely sped play up. By how much, I don't know. But there were at least 6 or 7 times during our round where I was the first to reach a green, no one was there yet to take the flag, and I putted. It was pretty great, actually. Then, when we were all closer to the hole, we took it out.



    There was even one time when I a guy had a fast downhill putt and he requested that we putt it in. No problem. We did so.



    Overall, though, DEFINITELY a time saver for our group today.
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  • getitdailygetitdaily Members Posts: 2,440 ✭✭
    edited Jan 5, 2019 11:06pm #425
    Obee wrote:


    First round today with the new rules. We played with the flag IN on pretty much all first putts outside 30 feet. It absolutely sped play up. By how much, I don't know. But there were at least 6 or 7 times during our round where I was the first to reach a green, no one was there yet to take the flag, and I putted. It was pretty great, actually. Then, when we were all closer to the hole, we took it out.



    There was even one time when I a guy had a fast downhill putt and he requested that we putt it in. No problem. We did so.



    Overall, though, DEFINITELY a time saver for our group today.




    Yep, a few holes where my group did as yours did. First ball off the first tee at 10:30am, bag off the cart at 2:32pm. We were a 4some plus my 4.5 yr old who hits on most holes on the tee and then from where I am in the fwy.



    Success



    One thing I'll keep an eye on is that it seemed to help with lag putting to putt with the flag in.
  • bladehunterbladehunter Rain rain go the hell away ! south carolinaMembers Posts: 26,611 ✭✭
    llewol007 wrote:

    pinhigh27 wrote:



    Please do give the physics lesson Mr wizard.





    Hit it 10 ft by dead center and it will hit the back and pop over or spit back out at you. If you hit it on the lip it will power off in the opposite direction. But there's a chance of hitting it slightly off center and it staying in.



    Now add a flagstick there. It has almost zero shot at going in. If it hits the pin its coming out. Maybe won't go by as far. But thats a poor lag putt strategy.



    I'm telling you that no good player who's learned this game flag out is going to rewire his brain to putt flag in. Might as wel get used to putting your own pin back in. Because most arent going to do it for you.




    Not sure if you actually play golf. This is extremely simple
    The concept of a lag putt is to get the ball close to the hole and not to hole out. Now yes there is a chance the ball will also happen to be knocked in which is a plus. To say there is zero chance of it going with a flag stick there is not 100% accurate. Yes it can happen but you forget as well that the flag stick is in the middle of the hole so there is still room for a ball to drop in the hole. My friend and I attempted to leave the flag in the hole during our round and to say that it helps one way or the other is about 60/40 to the benefit of having a better perception of how far the hole is. It was definitely a plus on longer putts. For the close putts, I did feel as if I had to Harvey Pennick the putt. My buddy on the other hand loves to hit the back of the cup every single time and on 2 occasion did his ball slightly miss the middle of the flag stick and sure enough he was rejected. In any case, I think the rules committee wants to speed up play which makes a lot of sense. Unless we play in tournaments a lot and are followed by rules judges, do we really have to worry.




    Not really universally true.



    Not everyone plays to lag putts and not make them. I rarely think “ don’t make “. If I’m hitting the ball from 150 I’m thinking makealot of the time. From inside 100. Most times. From around the green. Every time. Putts 99.9999% of the time. But my brain just works that way. If I thought “ leave it 3 ft short “. I would. And I’d then miss half those. I want it stone dead. Or in.
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  • ScratchyDawgScratchyDawg Members Posts: 350 ✭✭
    Had my career low today playing with the stick in for the first time ever. Only had 25 putts total. I think it helps me with depth perception on longer putts, and it gives me more confidence on shorter putts. Could just be a fluke. I guess time will tell.



    Absolutely speeds up play as well.
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  • jasonfish11jasonfish11 Members Posts: 429 ✭✭
    edited Jan 7, 2019 10:35am #428
    Man how has this thread gotten to 15 pages. I'm amazed at how controversial the topic of "does it help" is? Is this the new "Can a 4 handicap male beat an LPGA tour pro"?



    With out any testing I can say pretty confidently that in the long run leaving the flag in helps.



    Its Newtons 1st law of motion and one of the most basic physics concepts. An object in motion will stay in motion unless acted upon by an outside force. I don't quite understand how people can be questioning if a golf ball will stop closer to the hole if it hits the flag stick or if it will somehow produce extra energy (which is against the laws of physics) and pick up speed to stop further away.



    There may be real reasons to take it out, be it mental where you are just more comfortable with it out. Or maybe the shadow of the flag is distracting you. But from a physics standpoint I can say I'm extremely confident in my untested hypothesis that the flag in is better than the flag out. Anyone who disagrees with that without testing basically is saying they disagree with the laws of physics.



    So someone asked if the tour pros are idiots for taking the flag out. My answer is they might not be idiots in general but for this specific question yes they are being very dumb (unless they have some other non-physics related reason to take it out). This goes for anyone claiming the laws of physics do not apply to golf balls putted with the flag stick in.
  •  Dave D Dave D Members Posts: 4,002 ✭✭
    Played a county competition yesterday in the 2nd to last group, playing in 3 balls and I wouldn't say it sped up play at all. The odd time it was left in on a long lag putt one of the other 2 would have had time to tend it.



    I could see that it would speed up play on a hole, where someone was on the green and playing partners had played chipping on or from a bunker etc. Will be interesting to see if it speeds things up more playing with higher handicappers in club comps as they will be missing much more greens etc and I normally have to wait for my turn to putt.



    still took us 2 hrs for a front 9 then 2 1/2 hours for the back 9. Pace of play nothing to do with flags in or out, and the knee high drop feels absolutely ridiculous.
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  • ShilgyShilgy PhoenixMembers Posts: 11,526 ✭✭

    llewol007 wrote:

    pinhigh27 wrote:



    Please do give the physics lesson Mr wizard.





    Hit it 10 ft by dead center and it will hit the back and pop over or spit back out at you. If you hit it on the lip it will power off in the opposite direction. But there's a chance of hitting it slightly off center and it staying in.



    Now add a flagstick there. It has almost zero shot at going in. If it hits the pin its coming out. Maybe won't go by as far. But thats a poor lag putt strategy.



    I'm telling you that no good player who's learned this game flag out is going to rewire his brain to putt flag in. Might as wel get used to putting your own pin back in. Because most arent going to do it for you.




    Not sure if you actually play golf. This is extremely simple
    The concept of a lag putt is to get the ball close to the hole and not to hole out. Now yes there is a chance the ball will also happen to be knocked in which is a plus. To say there is zero chance of it going with a flag stick there is not 100% accurate. Yes it can happen but you forget as well that the flag stick is in the middle of the hole so there is still room for a ball to drop in the hole. My friend and I attempted to leave the flag in the hole during our round and to say that it helps one way or the other is about 60/40 to the benefit of having a better perception of how far the hole is. It was definitely a plus on longer putts. For the close putts, I did feel as if I had to Harvey Pennick the putt. My buddy on the other hand loves to hit the back of the cup every single time and on 2 occasion did his ball slightly miss the middle of the flag stick and sure enough he was rejected. In any case, I think the rules committee wants to speed up play which makes a lot of sense. Unless we play in tournaments a lot and are followed by rules judges, do we really have to worry.




    Not really universally true.



    Not everyone plays to lag putts and not make them. I rarely think “ don’t make “. If I’m hitting the ball from 150 I’m thinking makealot of the time. From inside 100. Most times. From around the green. Every time. Putts 99.9999% of the time. But my brain just works that way. If I thought “ leave it 3 ft short “. I would. And I’d then miss half those. I want it stone dead. Or in.
    "Lag" does not mean "don't make". "Lag" also does not mean leave it short. "Make" does not mean to slam it by five feet if/when it misses.
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  • davep043davep043 Members Posts: 3,238 ✭✭




    And as mentioned, this flagstick may violate the rule that does not allow a flagstick to be designed in a way to "unduly influence the movement of the ball."
  • nsxguynsxguy Just anudder user FloridaMembers Posts: 5,773 ✭✭
    davep043 wrote:





    And as mentioned, this flagstick may violate the rule that does not allow a flagstick to be designed in a way to "unduly influence the movement of the ball."




    That's interesting.



    So if I was playing at a course that had illegal flagsticks and putted with the flag OUT, would that round still count for handicap purposes ? And if I left it in it wouldn't ?

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  • Mikey5eMikey5e Members Posts: 791 ✭✭
    I have more concern for the stroke and distance rule that I have for leaving the flagstick in rule. To me the flagstick in rule is insignificant in terms of making a difference.
  • StanksStanks Everything I post is confrontational Members Posts: 1,280 ✭✭
    Flagstick in and 5 foot gimme putts brah. But seriously, I never remove the flag unless I'm playing with someone that wants it out already.



    Pulling the flag is so last year.
  • bladehunterbladehunter Rain rain go the hell away ! south carolinaMembers Posts: 26,611 ✭✭
    edited Jan 8, 2019 9:22pm #436
    Shilgy wrote:


    llewol007 wrote:

    pinhigh27 wrote:



    Please do give the physics lesson Mr wizard.





    Hit it 10 ft by dead center and it will hit the back and pop over or spit back out at you. If you hit it on the lip it will power off in the opposite direction. But there's a chance of hitting it slightly off center and it staying in.



    Now add a flagstick there. It has almost zero shot at going in. If it hits the pin its coming out. Maybe won't go by as far. But thats a poor lag putt strategy.



    I'm telling you that no good player who's learned this game flag out is going to rewire his brain to putt flag in. Might as wel get used to putting your own pin back in. Because most arent going to do it for you.




    Not sure if you actually play golf. This is extremely simple
    The concept of a lag putt is to get the ball close to the hole and not to hole out. Now yes there is a chance the ball will also happen to be knocked in which is a plus. To say there is zero chance of it going with a flag stick there is not 100% accurate. Yes it can happen but you forget as well that the flag stick is in the middle of the hole so there is still room for a ball to drop in the hole. My friend and I attempted to leave the flag in the hole during our round and to say that it helps one way or the other is about 60/40 to the benefit of having a better perception of how far the hole is. It was definitely a plus on longer putts. For the close putts, I did feel as if I had to Harvey Pennick the putt. My buddy on the other hand loves to hit the back of the cup every single time and on 2 occasion did his ball slightly miss the middle of the flag stick and sure enough he was rejected. In any case, I think the rules committee wants to speed up play which makes a lot of sense. Unless we play in tournaments a lot and are followed by rules judges, do we really have to worry.




    Not really universally true.



    Not everyone plays to lag putts and not make them. I rarely think “ don’t make “. If I’m hitting the ball from 150 I’m thinking makealot of the time. From inside 100. Most times. From around the green. Every time. Putts 99.9999% of the time. But my brain just works that way. If I thought “ leave it 3 ft short “. I would. And I’d then miss half those. I want it stone dead. Or in.
    "Lag" does not mean "don't make". "Lag" also does not mean leave it short. "Make" does not mean to slam it by five feet if/when it misses.




    My point was I’ve come to know there’s different kinds of people who play. Those who believe in “ taking ones medicine” and those who refuse to. Usually. Not always , the take your medicine guy also doesn’t try to make a lot of putts. If he has a slick downhiller. He’s only looking at speed. Never really trying to hole it.



    I’m not that guy. My brain needs a target. Or a goal. If I say “ leave it a foot short “. I will. Or “just inside 3 ft circle “ I usually will. But I’ll never make one. Same goes for chips and pitches. I’m looking at the hole. Period. And I make a lot. More than most people I play with. But I also blow some way by. Which for me isn’t the same as when I say I blew a putt way by. Putting for me is still the hardest part of the game by far. Much less control ... I’d much rather pitch a ball 20 yards than have a 50 ft putt. I use spin and feel in control of the ball. Much much more in control. But that’s me.



    My point was that some people are way too conservative. I maybe way too aggressive sometimes. But I’ll never be the guy who isn’t reading a putt to the hole.
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  • ObeeObee ClubWRX Posts: 3,726 ClubWRX


    My point was I’ve come to know there’s different kinds of people who play. Those who believe in “ taking ones medicine” and those who refuse to. Usually. Not always the take your medics guy also doesn’t try to make a lot of putts. If he has a slick downhiller. He’s only looking at speed. Never really trying to hole it.



    I’m not that guy. My brain needs a target. Or a goal. If I say “ leave it a foot short “. I will. Or “just inside 3 ft circle “ I usually will. But I’ll never make one. Same goes for chips and pitches. I’m looking at the hole. Period. And I make a lot. More than most people I play with. But I also blow some way by. Which for me isn’t the same as when I say I blew a putt way by. Putting for me is still the hardest part of the game by far. I’d much rather pitch a ball 20 yards than have a 50 ft putt. Much much rather. But that’s me.



    My point was that some people are way too conservative. I maybe way too aggressive sometimes. But I’ll never be the guy who isn’t reading a putt to the hole.




    We need to talk, bro.... ;-)
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  • bladehunterbladehunter Rain rain go the hell away ! south carolinaMembers Posts: 26,611 ✭✭
    edited Jan 8, 2019 9:26pm #438
    Lol ^. I knew that would draw an earful.



    To follow that up. The fear of the 4 footer for par is also a factor. I’d rather 3 putt trying to make than trying to miss.





    But you know I’m all ears. And happy to hear something that makes s difference.
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  • ObeeObee ClubWRX Posts: 3,726 ClubWRX
    Lol ^. I knew that would draw an earful.



    To follow that up. The fear of the 4 footer for par is also a factor. I’d rather 3 putt trying to make than trying to miss.





    But you know I’m all ears. And happy to hear something that makes s difference.




    In short, golf sometimes calls for a conservative strategy, but you ALWAYS need to made an aggressive, committed MOVE at the ball — whether we're talking a hybrid off the tee, a pitch, or a putt.



    CONSERVATIVE STRATEGY, BUT AN AGGRESSIVE SWING (or, in this case, putt).
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  • bladehunterbladehunter Rain rain go the hell away ! south carolinaMembers Posts: 26,611 ✭✭
    Obee wrote:

    Lol ^. I knew that would draw an earful.



    To follow that up. The fear of the 4 footer for par is also a factor. I’d rather 3 putt trying to make than trying to miss.





    But you know I’m all ears. And happy to hear something that makes s difference.




    In short, golf sometimes calls for a conservative strategy, but you ALWAYS need to made an aggressive, committed MOVE at the ball — whether we're talking a hybrid off the tee, a pitch, or a putt.



    CONSERVATIVE STRATEGY, BUT AN AGGRESSIVE SWING (or, in this case, putt).




    Yes. And in my mind that’s what I’m saying / doing. I’m not talking direct line ramming it 40 ft at the hole. But 99..% of the time I do want it to get to the hole. Even the slickest downhillers if you can get it to just creep by is better coming back than short. Why not aim on making it with die speed ?



    This Segway rubs me because of a playing partner I have who literally never takes a chance. He always shoots 72-76 ish. Like a clock. And yet he’s very aggressive with his thoughts towards my game. And I’ve been much lower than 72. I know it’s a thin line dance. But I think you limit yourself if you have a mindset of always “ taking your medicine “. I’m naturally the “ if I’ve got a window I’ll put it through the uprights “ guy.



    All that being said. I’m frequently wrong. And happy to be wrong if scoring average improves without limiting my potential.
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  • ShilgyShilgy PhoenixMembers Posts: 11,526 ✭✭
    edited Jan 9, 2019 4:10pm #441
    Obee wrote:

    Lol ^. I knew that would draw an earful.



    To follow that up. The fear of the 4 footer for par is also a factor. I'd rather 3 putt trying to make than trying to miss.





    But you know I'm all ears. And happy to hear something that makes s difference.




    In short, golf sometimes calls for a conservative strategy, but you ALWAYS need to made an aggressive, committed MOVE at the ball — whether we're talking a hybrid off the tee, a pitch, or a putt.



    CONSERVATIVE STRATEGY, BUT AN AGGRESSIVE SWING (or, in this case, putt).
    I don't believe I have ever lagged a putt that I wasn't trying to make. If that makes sense? I think to Obee it will. There are times a putt dead pin high- and in if on line- is a better option than trying to rattle the back of the cup.

    But then what do I know? I've never putted off the green 3 times in one round. image/smile.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':)' />
    Post edited by Unknown User on
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  • bladehunterbladehunter Rain rain go the hell away ! south carolinaMembers Posts: 26,611 ✭✭
    lol^ fair enough ..But to be clear the 3 putts in question were wicked... and i literally only breathed on them .. each nearly hitting the hole.. 2 of them rolled 8 ft or more at snails pace...





    i just dont understand how your stance.. you sound like you agree with me ..But the original poster i quoted doesnt agree with what you or I said ... he said "the concept of a lag putt is to get the ball close to the hole..NOT to hole out"... i guess i cant combine the the idea of "make" and " leave close" ... cant focus on both
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  • ObeeObee ClubWRX Posts: 3,726 ClubWRX
    Shilgy wrote:

    Obee wrote:

    Lol ^. I knew that would draw an earful.



    To follow that up. The fear of the 4 footer for par is also a factor. I'd rather 3 putt trying to make than trying to miss.





    But you know I'm all ears. And happy to hear something that makes s difference.




    In short, golf sometimes calls for a conservative strategy, but you ALWAYS need to made an aggressive, committed MOVE at the ball — whether we're talking a hybrid off the tee, a pitch, or a putt.



    CONSERVATIVE STRATEGY, BUT AN AGGRESSIVE SWING (or, in this case, putt).
    I don't believe I have ever lagged a putt that I wasn't trying to make. If that makes sense? I think to Obee it will. There are times a putt dead pin high- and in if on line- is a better option than trying to rattle the back of the cup.

    But then what do I know? I've never putted of the green 3 times in one round. image/smile.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':)' />




    Totally makes sense. I'm trying to "make" every lag putt for sure. I'm just trying to make it in with "last roll" speed so as to control my speed more than anything. On a 42-foot putt with 6 feet of break, if I leave the ball one-foot short, dead in the jar, I have zero problem with that.



    Guys who tell themselves to hit their next 42-footer harder!!! as a result of leaving the first one short are ... well .. not very smart. LOL
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  • bladehunterbladehunter Rain rain go the hell away ! south carolinaMembers Posts: 26,611 ✭✭
    lol,,,agree Obee with the one caveat ... my brain doesnt think " hit the next one harder" it thinks "oh s*** ...dont hit the next one any softer...we dont want any work to clean up" i find speed on a putt twice as hard to replicate time after time as even hitting same distances with a sw from the fairway .. id give anything to feel that confidence with a putter . for some reason i think with putter the only time i have distance control is when its unconscious ... with a wedge or short iron i think about it quite a bit and never really lose it..
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  • DaveGoodrichDaveGoodrich Members Posts: 997 ✭✭
    edited Jan 9, 2019 4:50pm #445
    I am definitely in the "leave it in" camp. The empirical testing data (Pelz) lines up well with what we would predict given the laws of physics, so I believe we are on fairly solid ground with respect to the advantage/disadvantages related to the interaction of the ball, cup and pin. Personally, I think the visual aspect of aiming at an 8' high pin, vs. aiming at a small hole in the ground is actually a bigger factor.



    The pace of play question is much more complex and dependent on numerous variables. I got matched up with a threesome last weekend. We discussed the flagstick issue on the 1st green. They generally wanted to take the pin out, so I just acted like it was 2018, asking them "in or out?" for any longish putts. For me, I just told them "you never need to worry about pulling the pin for me." So when I was away, I could go ahead and putt without waiting for someone to come attend the flag. This let the other players go directly to their balls and mark/clean their ball and line up their putts, which saved time on several holes. At least once, I was on in regulation, but well away from the hole and not in anyone's line of play. I went ahead and putted while others were still off (but near) the green, allowing me to move up and mark my ball in between their shots onto the green.



    The potential pace of play downside is the need to take the flag in and out between putts because of the individual players preferences. I think most folks will eventually realize that on most holes, the advantage just isn't very significant, so they will do whatever moves things along best. But obviously, an advantage is an advantage, so when the stakes are high, it is more likely that folks will insist on their preference. So I absolutely think we will all need to figure out what the proper etiquette is in various situations, and hopefully we can do it without being crappy to each other while we are working it out. I can tell you that I will consider it rude if someone just "defaults" to pulling the pin every time, and insists that I ask for it to be put back in the hole each time I want it to be there (as was suggested earlier in this thread).



    Pre-1/1/19, we tended the flag for long putts, but just laid the flag down as soon as everyone "can see it ok," because we understood that it needed to be out for everybody's made putt. Now, it will be better to never lay it down until we know everyone wants it out. So, generally, the player that is closest to the pin will just ask "in or out?" for the next guy to putt. If its "out" then he will pull the flag and back off a couple paces for the putt (without laying the pin down), then ask the next guy "in or out?" etc. Rinse and repeat until everyone has putted. Its not like we have to lay the flag down 5 yards away, and go back and forth to get it for each putt. Generally, we are going to know our regular playing partner's preferences, so it should all become pretty automatic.



    During my round last weekend, I never felt the need to put the flag back in after my partners had pulled it for their putts. I might only do that in a case where I think the flag is a big advantage, like a slippery downhill, etc. For me, I think my approach will be to almost always leave it in if I have a choice, but only rarely "put it back in" after it has been pulled for someone else.
    Post edited by Unknown User on
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  • macedanmacedan Members Posts: 225 ✭✭
    I often walk the course by myself so typically I will leave the pin in just in the interest of time. If I am playing with a group we will usually remove it but if someone wants it in it is no bother to me. The whole pin in/pin out fiasco is blown way way way too far out of proportion imo.
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  • LeoLeo99LeoLeo99 Members Posts: 4,071 ✭✭
    nsxguy wrote:

    PingEye2 wrote:


    Bryson led the field in Strokes Gained: Putting at +3.868 with mostly leaving the flag in. I didn’t watch the entire round but the only times I saw him with it out was very short putts where DJ already had removed it.




    So this is the "proof" that the flagstick helps ?



    The question is "Did the flagstick help keep a putt IN that otherwise would have missed. I watched some of the tournament and saw Bryson hole some of those putts and the flagstick made NO difference on the ones I saw - they all basically just fell over the lip.



    I doubt you're EVER going to have proof one way or the other. The USGA, R&A and I expect other organizations spent 7 YEARS developing these new Rules. Do you think with all their research, you or I know better ? Unlikely.



    While I've done some of my own testing as, I'm sure, others have done, I'm not positive one way or the other but i would agree with those who say it's more likely to help you than hurt you. Unfortunately that is not "proof".



    I mentioned noticing some putts hitting the flag on the low side that the flagstick seemed to kick OUT. I've also seen some putts spin out of the hole with the flagstick leaning a bit backwards. Of course had I hit the high side of the flagstick there is a likelihood, but not a certainty that the same flagstick would've helped it (stay) in.



    Net-net, IMO, there won't ever be any conclusive evidence either way.




    Until they publish their research, I'll assume they didn't do any. As we say in the pharmaceutical industry, if it's not documented, it didn't happen.



    I'm leaving the flag it. I don't see any reason to remove it.
  • OakLawnGolfProOakLawnGolfPro Members Posts: 149 ✭✭
    Tried it already with the stick in and loved it. I think it got me focused on trying to hit the stick (smaller target) and not just the cup. If I didn't make it I gave a lot of scares to the hole doing it.
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  • bladehunterbladehunter Rain rain go the hell away ! south carolinaMembers Posts: 26,611 ✭✭
    PingEye2 wrote:




    We alll know he’s searching for ANYTHING that will help. Lol. Not surprising.
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  • ShilgyShilgy PhoenixMembers Posts: 11,526 ✭✭

    PingEye2 wrote:




    We all know he's searching for ANYTHING that will help. Lol. Not surprising.
    You are a leave it out guy-correct? And you have had issues putting-correct? And you LOL at a guy who will try anything to putt better-correct? Man, we need to talk. Well, after your talk with Obee. image/wink.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=';)' />
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