What does handicap have to do with it?!

Since I am a lefty and living in Sweden I often have to buy clubs if I want to try something and this leaves me to sell a lot of clubs each year. One of the most asked questions I get is "What handicap do you need to use that/those club(s)?" I also see a lot of discussions here on WRX on blades and handicap. So my question is what does someones handicap have to do with what they can and cannot play with? For example, I play to 4 handicap and my best part of the game is my ball striking with my irons and my worst part is my putting. One of my friends is a 3 handicap, he hits his irons like s*** but once he is on or around green he sinks everything. Another friend is a 13 handicap who strikes his irons really well, but he can't get off the tee if his life depended on it. So the 3 handicap plays GI irons while the 13 handicap plays blades, and their gear has nothing to do with what handicap they are. Why this obsession with handicap and golf? Same with slow play, just because someone has a high handicap does not mean they play slow, I would almost say it is the other way around when it comes to slow play. I do not think I have ever asked someone what handicap they have on the first tee when playing with strangers, I couldn't care less. They are there to play golf just like me, some are better than others, so just enjoy the round.

Yep. Many great points here! HC is just a relative to others useful only in competition. That could be for pay or fun, but it does great to compare in the game of tourney play.

As far as enjoyment, the game is self-pace outside of tourney play, largely, enjoying at a **reasonable rate** of play is all that matters.

Only other WRXers look into our bags and make some type of evaluation. I would love to play more rounds with WRXers, but never get the courage to do so as it seems that my fellow PHX area ones are much lower HC than me or have far more $ to spend on the round than me! Plus, I am off to play mostly Sun/Mon/Tues every week - not a great match.

ps....I have played Players's MB irons into GI cavities lately and liked both, no results extremes for my game.

Studies have shown there is highly correlative relationship between handicap and ball striking ability. Sure there are some exceptions, but they are rare. If you want to hit blades as a 30 or hit a 9 hybrid iron as a + go for it.

I don't care what you're playing but a 13hcp is more or less a bogey golfer. If it's tee shots killing his game and his iron game is good enough for tour level equipment, I would think he'd be playing irons off the tee as well. Based on what you're saying that should take down into the 70's. I'm guessing he has a few more issues than just getting off the tee!

@favre0811 ,

If you ask for this to be moved to the equipment forum, where this topic gets kicked around on a regular basis, you could end up with a conversation that goes on for days. With no resolution, of course. :)

Short answer is handicap has literally nothing to do with it. After you cycle out the incomplete or incorrect handicaps , then the better than average iron players who can’t putt or have the sand yips. Then weed out the 12 handicap who will get up and down for bogey or better more times than Not ( never making a double ) , and last the pure sandbagger. After all those are thrown out. You’ve got about 173 players give or take in 50 states. So .... it means zero. Play what you want to play.

> @SNIPERBBB said:

> Studies have shown there is highly correlative relationship between handicap and ball striking ability. Sure there are some exceptions, but they are rare. If you want to hit blades as a 30 or hit a 9 hybrid iron as a + go for it.

This is true. It is very rare for a golfer to have a significantly better result in one aspect of their game. From my experience, a 15 capper is worse at all phases of the game than an 8 capper.

You might have a 15 capper that is a 13 off the tee and a 16 putter, but not much more than that.

Distance is one area where there is often a mismatch between capability and handicap.

I know quite a few 18 handicappers who hit it as far and sometimes much further that many mid single figure handicappers, however control and consistency is the factor that governs handicap in this aspect of the game.

> @"Deceptively Short" said:

> Distance is one area where there is often a mismatch between capability and handicap.

> I know quite a few 18 handicappers who hit it as far and sometimes much further that many mid single figure handicappers, however control and consistency is the factor that governs handicap in this aspect of the game.

Bingo. Play with a 17 handicap frequently who hits a rope hook driver 265-280 almost every single time. And then he hits the same rope hook approach and almost never hits a green. To make it worse he has a hot set of distance irons , so he makes sure to miss every green long. lol. Has good hands around the green and some days gets up and down a lot. And some days he never does. So he’s dangerous with that handicap on a good day. Has a low round of 78 on his handicap and a high of 107. And nobody who sees him play would ever accuse him of cheating. He’s wild as fook. But a good teacher and time plus losing 75 lbs could turn him into a 10 or less in short order. I have no doubt.

The real question is: how good a ball striker do I need to hit the clubs you're selling?

Or just assume a golfer with average putting and short game and go from there. No need to over think the question.

No wonder OP has not come back to this discussion, as he can not find it anymore from such an obscure sub-forum.

> @QEight said:

> No wonder OP has not come back to this discussion, as he can not find it anymore from such an obscure sub-forum.

I am here, travelling and do not have my laptop so waiting on getting home to continue the discussion.

> @favre0811 said:

> > @QEight said:

> > No wonder OP has not come back to this discussion, as he can not find it anymore from such an obscure sub-forum.

>

> I am here, travelling and do not have my laptop so waiting on getting home to continue the discussion.

>

>

Good. Just for my interest, what was the reason to start this thread in Rules?

> @favre0811 said:

> ... Why this obsession with handicap and golf? Same with slow play, just because someone has a high handicap does not mean they play slow, I would almost say it is the other way around when it comes to slow play. I do not think I have ever asked someone what handicap they have on the first tee when playing with strangers, I couldn't care less. They are there to play golf just like me, some are better than others,...

It's just about convenience, and it's a huge thing in America we REALLY like to rank things. No biggie.

> @Roadking2003 said:

> > @SNIPERBBB said:

> > Studies have shown there is highly correlative relationship between handicap and ball striking ability. Sure there are some exceptions, but they are rare. If you want to hit blades as a 30 or hit a 9 hybrid iron as a + go for it.

>

> This is true. It is very rare for a golfer to have a significantly better result in one aspect of their game. From my experience, a 15 capper is worse at all phases of the game than an 8 capper.

>

> You might have a 15 capper that is a 13 off the tee and a 16 putter, but not much more than that.

>

There are exceptions. Like me last season.

I lost the ability to hit driver consistently last season. I fought a big two-way miss for most of the season and went from a 7 to 12 in 3 months. The only reason I was a 12 was that I was hitting my irons like a 5 or 6.

Thankfully I have sorted out the driver.

> @Roadking2003 said:

> > @SNIPERBBB said:

> > Studies have shown there is highly correlative relationship between handicap and ball striking ability. Sure there are some exceptions, but they are rare. If you want to hit blades as a 30 or hit a 9 hybrid iron as a + go for it.

>

> This is true. It is very rare for a golfer to have a significantly better result in one aspect of their game. From my experience, a 15 capper is worse at all phases of the game than an 8 capper.

>

> You might have a 15 capper that is a 13 off the tee and a 16 putter, but not much more than that.

Of course there are exceptions but I think what you write is true. For my index level, I'm a bad driver of the ball, slightly below average short game (don't take 4 shots often but my up/down % is lower than the stats I've seen for my index level), pretty average putter, which leaves irons somewhat above average. But I don't think any of the aspects are as good as someone that usually shoots in the 70s or as bad as someone that usually shoots in the 90s.

Again, not saying any one individual can't experience this but I really struggle to see how you can be so good / so bad with different full swing clubs (i.e. bad driver vs. tour level iron player). Maybe I can see it with putting since this is a different mechanical motion and the mental aspect may be more. But it seems tough to believe you can stripe a blade 4-iron 200+ in the air but can't keep a driver on the planet. Spieth and Phil are bad drivers / good iron players but they aren't shooting 80 regularly because of their driver.

Not sure on chipping. I've can't recall someone that regularly duffed more than 1 shot per round that regularly shot in the 80s. Most people I've seen that do this seem like they were shooting 100+ for many other reasons as well.

Once the summer gets in full swing here in NY I usually see my handicap get down to around 4. I am a good ball striker and consider my irons to be a strength of my game, yet I play more of a game improvement set of irons that I have had for quite a while. I have tried blades and I can hit them fine but if I can hit 7/10 shots pure with the blades but 9/10 pure with my regular irons I am not going to switch just because my handicap dictates what I should be playing. People put way to much thought into their equipment and what they "should" be playing, just go with is comfortable and works best for you, the game is complicated enough as is!

Over the last few years, I've been moving away from blades, knowing logically that CBs offer more of what I need, and that I'm not a good enough ball striker to have any benefit from playing MBs. I've been struggling a lot lately, and haven't sniffed the 70s in 6 months. So, I put my MBs in the bag on a whim and shot my best round in 6 months (77, 5-over, 70.2/126), with 3 penalty strokes off the tee. Something about playing MBs puts me in the zone. Golf is mental. So much so, that I'll probably put my CBs back in the bag in search of those strokes I lost since clearly I should have shot par.

I play with a fella who is maybe a 15, I'll put his driving up against any 5 hc on this forum. I mean he hits the same baby draw every damn time. But luckily for my pockets the other parts of his game is nowhere near as good.

I've always said this - just because someone plays off 8 doesn't mean their entire game is going to be to the same standard. In fact I'm just back from a lesson, and one of the things my coach said to show how much my Driving is killing me - my irons and short game are at a sub 5 handicap level, but my long game is more like a 15 handicappers. On shorter swings I can take everything back in line and square the club face beautifully - on longer swings I take it inside then try to sort it out on the way down.

Hence I've gone for accuracy rather than distance with the woods, but don't feel I'm losing anything by playing MBs. I think the secret is to fit your bag to your game rather than your handicap. Just be honest with what you can hit consistently.

This thread is me in a nutshell. I play blades because I like them and haven’t really gotten along with clubs with a thick sole, but contemplating moving into a CB. I’m an 11 handicap who has issues off the tee. Last round was 49-38. 49 was 3 lost balls and a sideways punch out. I probably shouldn’t play blades (especially MP-4’s) but why the heck not. I pay for my clubs and don’t play for serious money.

> @mallrat said:

> This thread is me in a nutshell. I play blades because I like them and haven’t really gotten along with clubs with a thick sole, but contemplating moving into a CB. I’m an 11 handicap who has issues off the tee. Last round was 49-38. 49 was 3 lost balls and a sideways punch out. I probably shouldn’t play blades (especially MP-4’s) but why the heck not. I pay for my clubs and don’t play for serious money.

I can't do big irons either. Was a 15 last year and got down to single digits with blades and players CBs. Now in iBlade. Still get the look I want but so much more help. Try some smaller CBs.. you'll be amazed at how much help you get with a small cavity.

I've tabled handicap index as the great matrix of play. Taken it off it's pedestal. It's just an aggregate of executing 5-6 skills done well or not. You have decisions, mental maturation and rhythm & tempo. There's the tee., approach and short game. I break it down in this fashion and "judge" a round on this level. There's great 81's and bad ones and there's also great 87 and bad ones. If I mind those things, index will go proper direction, so my scorecard has 5 lines on it, the score is of least importance. I have hi-tech metals and they are the worst performing of the bunch and MB's that statistically hold their end up. This mindset has allowed me to play loose without being hippy dippy about it. It also focus efforts of improvement where it is really needed. I spend a lot more time with driver and #3w. Expended more effort on solidifying short game technique too. Pay much more attention to R&T and general state of mind. Resultant play has me grossing sub 40 for nine easily where 42's were the norm. Frankly do not play enough to get 2 sub 40 nines together but I will;. Not against using gear to help in this game, index has value but perspective on both is somewhat warped on a collective basis and it distracts from pursuing avenues of improvement in the end.

> @bodhi555 said:

> I've always said this - just because someone plays off 8 doesn't mean their entire game is going to be to the same standard. In fact I'm just back from a lesson, and one of the things my coach said to show how much my Driving is killing me - my irons and short game are at a sub 5 handicap level, but my long game is more like a 15 handicappers. On shorter swings I can take everything back in line and square the club face beautifully - on longer swings I take it inside then try to sort it out on the way down.

>

I've been thinking about this more. Let's ignore the whole MB/CB/GI portion of the debate, as that seems to get people riled up the most (myself included).

But there does seem to be a disproportionate amount of people that say "I'm a strong iron player" but can't drive/chip/putt to save my life. As mentioned, I kind of get putting because it's a different mechanical motion and possibly more mental than full swings. I'm not sure about chipping.

I'm also worse off the tee than with my irons. But I don't think the spread is 5 vs. 15 index. It seems like a 10% miss at 250 yards often has you reaching for another ball and brings double/triple into play (i.e. a hole that can derail the round). A 10% miss from 125-175 is often playable (you are up somewhere by the green) and unless you ended up in a hazard a) the impact on score is less and b) the emotion / impact on our memory is also less. Conversely, a good drive on the sprinkler line still requires you to play the rest of the hole. I stiffed iron shot results in a birdie and makes you look like a pro for a moment.

For example, yesterday I played and had a good round. I had two penalty shots off the tee and made two birdies, both mid-iron shots within 10 feet of the flag (and lucky enough to make the putts). But I also pulled two wedges onto the fringe and pulled a 5-iron left into a low run-off area 40-50 feet left of the pin from a perfect lie/stance in the middle of the fairway. All three times made par but they were not 3 quality strikes with the irons (I'm calling a full swing with a set PW and UW an iron shot).

I don't doubt that some people are better with their irons than other parts of their game. And if your instructor pegged the 5/15 levels for you that is definitely a more objective data point. But I'm wondering if the misses people have with irons are relatively speaking just as frequent and just as far offline (% wise) as with other clubs? Or just not as different as we remember them because of how they impact score.

Use whatever equipment makes golf more fun. Whether it’s blades, persimmon woods, or the newest Pings, there are many things that make golf enjoyable other than the scorecard.

The reason people ask about handicap when trying to recommend clubs is because it's the easiest and most comprehensive way to determine skill. It's like asking what shaft flex you should play but not wanting to disclose your swing speed. Unless people start uploading a video of their swing when they start a thread about what irons they should buy I don't see a better way to go about it.

And for the record, no one cares if high handicaps play blades. If that makes you happy, buy some shiny blades and have at it. What is annoying are people trying to argue that it's not hurting their score, which it probably is the vast majority of the time.

Thanks for all the inputs and you all have valid points. I just wanted to reflect on that just because you are a certain hcp it does not mean that you can or cannot play a certain club. How can someone that has never seen you play know if you can play a club you are selling or not based on hcp?! Also, I understand the hcp system and why we have it, but in the big world it doesn't really matter what hcp you have on that beatiful Saturday morning round. Enjoy that you are all there for a 3-4 hour walk in the sun, hitting some balls in small holes and getting a really nice farmer's tan while doing it.

> @favre0811 said:

> Thanks for all the inputs and you all have valid points. I just wanted to reflect on that just because you are a certain hcp it does not mean that you can or cannot play a certain club. How can someone that has never seen you play know if you can play a club you are selling or not based on hcp?! Also, I understand the hcp system and why we have it, but in the big world it doesn't really matter what hcp you have on that beatiful Saturday morning round. Enjoy that you are all there for a 3-4 hour walk in the sun, hitting some balls in small holes and getting a really nice farmer's tan while doing it.

Any handicap can play any club. I've played blades as a high single digit cap and posted scores as good as when I've played cavities. Going off the handicap mentality higher caps should all use mega forgiving high spin drivers, huge GI irons, big cavity wedges, and mallet putters. The fact is you need to play what you're comfortable with because at the end of the day putting a good swing on the ball is often about your confidence with the club in your hand. That said, I think there are people on here who don't truly understand the ways in which they are hurting their game by playing unforgiving clubs and have distorted their reality. There is a reason many pros opt for help in long irons and I know the person with a 25 cap is not putting in what it takes to play a bladed long iron well (almost 100% of the time). Proximity to the hole and distance drop offs are huge factors in scoring.