Could Ben Hogan Use a 1-iron?

1234568
9

Comments

  • Not YogiNot Yogi Spam  47WRX Points: 0Posts: 47
    Joined:  #212
    Two Stroke...hostility and jealousy are stepbrothers. There has been a long fought war between two camps. The long dominated PGA party liners that insist hitting down to make the ball go up....and all the others. Guys like Martinez and Squish are obvious rebels, but they're right. I'd never heard of either one until just recently, but they both stuck out as searchers and willing teachers. Both have helped many, myself especially.



    Five lessons, on the other hand, not so much. In spite of all the beautiful drawings that graphically show what Hogan is saying, none of the drawings show the moment of impact. Lots and lots of the set up and followthrough illustrations, but none of impact...and shortly thereafter. Why?



    I think Hogan wanted all the imitators to take those meatloaf sized divots one takes when you hit hard down. There's enough video of Hogan taking no divot or just a small quarter size chunk just under where the ball sat....not forward of where the ball was. His low spiral attack was the sweeping of the club with contact coming just at the lowest part of the arc just as the club was rising.
    Posted:
  • GolfWRXGolfWRX Warning Points: 0  11 Members Posts: 11 #ad
    Joined:  ...

    Advertisement
  • JD3JD3 Members  5055WRX Points: 402Posts: 5,055 Titanium Tees
    Joined:  edited Jul 31, 2011 #213
    Five Lessons is the top selling golf instruction book of all time. That a couple of wankers on a message board are crying "woe is me" hardly qualifies it as a flop. The miniscule fraction of dissatisfied buyers further points to its phenomenonal success.
    Posted:
    Cobra SZ 9 Hzrdus Yellow 6.0
    TM M1 2016 3W HL Tensei CK White 70x 
    Ping G410 HB 19 KBS Graphite Tour Hybrid 85s+
    Callaway Apex 2019 4 - AW KBS Tour 120s (hard stepped 1x)
    Yururi Tataki Wedges 52.5 and 60.5 KBS Hi-Rev 2.0x
    Ping Anser 2 Milled
    NDMC Grips (extra wrap lower half to reduce taper)
    Titleist AVX 
    UA Jordan Spieth 2
    Footjoy Tour Glove (optional, often times play without glove)
  • Not YogiNot Yogi Spam  47WRX Points: 0Posts: 47
    Joined:  #214
    JD3 wrote:


    Five Lessons is the top selling golf instruction book of all time. That a couple of wankers on a message board are crying "woe is me" hardly qualifies it as a flop. The miniscule fraction of dissatisfied buyers further points to its phenomenonal success.




    Where do you get I'm woeing? Simple fact...Hogan didn't want any illustrations showing the clubface at impact. Popularity is important if you're Lady Gaga or Michael Jackson. I'll take Austin and Yogi.
    Posted:
  • JD3JD3 Members  5055WRX Points: 402Posts: 5,055 Titanium Tees
    Joined:  #215
    lol, how about the cover?



    0671612972.01._SX140_SY225_SCLZZZZZZZ_.jpg
    Posted:
    Cobra SZ 9 Hzrdus Yellow 6.0
    TM M1 2016 3W HL Tensei CK White 70x 
    Ping G410 HB 19 KBS Graphite Tour Hybrid 85s+
    Callaway Apex 2019 4 - AW KBS Tour 120s (hard stepped 1x)
    Yururi Tataki Wedges 52.5 and 60.5 KBS Hi-Rev 2.0x
    Ping Anser 2 Milled
    NDMC Grips (extra wrap lower half to reduce taper)
    Titleist AVX 
    UA Jordan Spieth 2
    Footjoy Tour Glove (optional, often times play without glove)
  • Not YogiNot Yogi Spam  47WRX Points: 0Posts: 47
    Joined:  #216
    JD3 wrote:


    lol, how about the cover?



    0671612972.01._SX140_SY225_SCLZZZZZZZ_.jpg




    Thanks. This is exactly what I mean. This is not impact. Two more inches and it would be. Again, it looks like a descending blow, but you can't be sure.



    Ben is a national treasure, but he's not a god. Snead..maybe.
    Posted:
  • hoganfan924hoganfan924 Members  5185WRX Points: 55Posts: 5,185 Titanium Tees
    Joined:  edited Jul 31, 2011 #217
    Not Yogi wrote:


    Two Stroke...hostility and jealousy are stepbrothers. There has been a long fought war between two camps. The long dominated PGA party liners that insist hitting down to make the ball go up....and all the others. Guys like Martinez and Squish are obvious rebels, but they're right. I'd never heard of either one until just recently, but they both stuck out as searchers and willing teachers. Both have helped many, myself especially.



    Five lessons, on the other hand, not so much. In spite of all the beautiful drawings that graphically show what Hogan is saying, none of the drawings show the moment of impact. Lots and lots of the set up and followthrough illustrations, but none of impact...and shortly thereafter. Why?



    I think Hogan wanted all the imitators to take those meatloaf sized divots one takes when you hit hard down. There's enough video of Hogan taking no divot or just a small quarter size chunk just under where the ball sat....not forward of where the ball was. His low spiral attack was the sweeping of the club with contact coming just at the lowest part of the arc just as the club was rising.




    Virtually every bit of Trackman data taken from good players shows a decending clubhead through impact with everything but a driver (and perhaps teed up fairway woods). Now if you want to say that the hands and/or left shoulder are leveling out and/or rising just before impact, that's another matter entirely. "Hitting up" on a ball sitting on the ground is nonsense and is the disease of most chops.



    And just how would a hand sketched illustration of Hogan 2" after the cover illustration tell us anything that the cover illustration doesn't? Hogan certainly took divots, yes shallow ones due to his low swing but divots nonetheless, Plenty of film and photographic evidence of that. I think you're just trying to see something that isn't there.



    Here's just one example of many that are easily found. I'm sure we could agree that if one were to just scrape the ground and not take a divot, a 4 iron would be a prime candidate for that:







    Here's a 6 iron. Look at the size of that beaver pelt!



    Posted:
  • GolfWRXGolfWRX Warning Points: 0  11 Members Posts: 11 #ad
    Joined:  ...

    Advertisement
  • JD3JD3 Members  5055WRX Points: 402Posts: 5,055 Titanium Tees
    Joined:  edited Jul 31, 2011 #218
    @ Not Yogi, the kind of nonsensical reply Id expect from someone comparing Hogan to Lady Gaga, preferring these 2 clowns instead:



    ma-skeleton.jpg

    post-49932-1255537392-1.jpg



    Back to a credible source, what would change in the 10th of a second (literally the blink of an eye) it takes Hogan's clubhead travelling 90+ mph to go 2 inches?



    How do you hit "up" on an object on the ground?



    How would that not require being underneath the ground behind it, which in a golf lingo is hitting it fat.
    Posted:
    Cobra SZ 9 Hzrdus Yellow 6.0
    TM M1 2016 3W HL Tensei CK White 70x 
    Ping G410 HB 19 KBS Graphite Tour Hybrid 85s+
    Callaway Apex 2019 4 - AW KBS Tour 120s (hard stepped 1x)
    Yururi Tataki Wedges 52.5 and 60.5 KBS Hi-Rev 2.0x
    Ping Anser 2 Milled
    NDMC Grips (extra wrap lower half to reduce taper)
    Titleist AVX 
    UA Jordan Spieth 2
    Footjoy Tour Glove (optional, often times play without glove)
  • two stroketwo stroke Members  41WRX Points: 0Posts: 41
    Joined:  #219
    Does the clubface contact the ball above or below its equator?
    Posted:
  • two stroketwo stroke Members  41WRX Points: 0Posts: 41
    Joined:  edited Jul 31, 2011 #220
    JD3 wrote:


    Five Lessons...The miniscule fraction of dissatisfied buyers further points to its phenomenonal success.






    Succesful in terms of sales?

    Or as an instructional tool?
    Posted:
  • hoganfan924hoganfan924 Members  5185WRX Points: 55Posts: 5,185 Titanium Tees
    Joined:  #221
    Or this montage, where 1:19 in, he even takes a divot with his 4 wood! lol







    Here's another nice compilation:







    Why would we need hand sketched illustrations of impact when we can watch film? lol
    Posted:
  • jak_botjak_bot Members  628WRX Points: 50Posts: 628 Bunkers
    Joined:  #222
    JD3 wrote:


    @ Not Yogi, the kind of nonsensical reply Id expect from someone comparing Hogan to Lady Gaga, preferring these 2 clowns instead:



    ma-skeleton.jpg

    post-49932-1255537392-1.jpg



    Back to a credible source, what would change in the 10th of a second (literally the blink of an eye) it takes Hogan's clubhead travelling 90+ mph to go 2 inches?



    How do you hit "up" on an object on the ground?



    How would that not require being underneath the ground behind it, which in a golf lingo is hitting it fat.








    The picture of Ben on the cover of 5L posted is post impact. Look at the ball, its already in flight. Not Yogi is talking about 2 inches going backwards.



    Posted:
  • GolfWRXGolfWRX Warning Points: 0  11 Members Posts: 11 #ad
    Joined:  ...

    Advertisement
  • JD3JD3 Members  5055WRX Points: 402Posts: 5,055 Titanium Tees
    Joined:  edited Aug 1, 2011 #223
    @ Two Stroke, if the top selling book of all time (which by it's very title "Five Lessons" is applied in nature) is a failure, why not far greater dissent than a couple of wankers professing loyalty to goof ball instructors in skeleton suits and aladdin outfits? How could its popularity endure for over 60 years?



    Against these figures and common sense measures, how can you not consider the issue to lie with your aptitude, commitment and ability?
    Posted:
    Post edited by Unknown User on
    Cobra SZ 9 Hzrdus Yellow 6.0
    TM M1 2016 3W HL Tensei CK White 70x 
    Ping G410 HB 19 KBS Graphite Tour Hybrid 85s+
    Callaway Apex 2019 4 - AW KBS Tour 120s (hard stepped 1x)
    Yururi Tataki Wedges 52.5 and 60.5 KBS Hi-Rev 2.0x
    Ping Anser 2 Milled
    NDMC Grips (extra wrap lower half to reduce taper)
    Titleist AVX 
    UA Jordan Spieth 2
    Footjoy Tour Glove (optional, often times play without glove)
  • two stroketwo stroke Members  41WRX Points: 0Posts: 41
    Joined:  edited Jul 31, 2011 #224
    JD3, so, a successful intructional tool?
    Posted:
    Post edited by Unknown User on
  • jak_botjak_bot Members  628WRX Points: 50Posts: 628 Bunkers
    Joined:  #225
    Ben Hogan had a fondness for book-ends. However, in 5L the book-ends are not related to books, rather they are represented by thousands of words. Words that can be interpreted many different ways, by many different people.
    Posted:
  • Not YogiNot Yogi Spam  47WRX Points: 0Posts: 47
    Joined:  #226
    On -, @JD3..."How do you hit "up" on an object on the ground?




    How would that not require being underneath the ground behind it, which in a golf lingo is hitting it fat."



    Sir 3. I never said anything about hitting UP. The bottom of the arc will launch it just below the equator.



    As for the clowns, I doubt Hogan thought they were anything but straight shooters.
    Posted:
  • jak_botjak_bot Members  628WRX Points: 50Posts: 628 Bunkers
    Joined:  #227
    Not Yogi wrote:


    On -, @JD3..."How do you hit "up" on an object on the ground?




    How would that not require being underneath the ground behind it, which in a golf lingo is hitting it fat."



    Sir 3. I never said anything about hitting UP. The bottom of the arc will launch it just below the equator.



    As for the clowns, I doubt Hogan thought they were anything but straight shooters.




    That cover picture from 5L is POST IMPACT!!! The ball is in flight, look at the little lines coming out of the back of the ball.
    Posted:
  • GolfWRXGolfWRX Warning Points: 0  11 Members Posts: 11 #ad
    Joined:  ...

    Advertisement
  • eightironeightiron Banned  3136WRX Points: 0Posts: 3,136
    Joined:  #228
    Not Yogi wrote:


    On -, @JD3..."How do you hit "up" on an object on the ground?




    How would that not require being underneath the ground behind it, which in a golf lingo is hitting it fat."



    Sir 3. I never said anything about hitting UP. The bottom of the arc will launch it just below the equator.



    As for the clowns, I doubt Hogan thought they were anything but straight shooters.




    Any example of this , like videos , maybe you demonstrating this point or Hogan swings . Have you factored in his clubs , didn't he have sharp leading edges with bounce taken off
    Posted:
  • grahlergrahler Banned  759WRX Points: 0Posts: 759
    Joined:  #229
    Not Yogi prefers the sway and cast to the stack and tilt I guess.



    Posted:
  • two stroketwo stroke Members  41WRX Points: 0Posts: 41
    Joined:  #230
    This conversation has zig-zagged all over the place. In it's course, the group has been subject to an ongoing series of bizarre personal attacks and a suspiciously protective masculine obssession that some collectively foster regarding Ben Hogan.



    The discussion began on the topic of the 1-iron. Presently, it is superficially concerned with whether or not one strikes up or down upon a golf ball.



    Conceding that 5 Lessons is the most successful instructional book ever written for average golfers looking to break 80 in 6 months, I would like to redirect some focus back to the 1-iron for one second.



    Does one hit the ball above or below the equator with the clubface of the 1-iron to launch the ball to its destination?
    Posted:
  • dapdap Members  2618WRX Points: 185Posts: 2,618 Titanium Tees
    Joined:  #231
    This book is a must read if you want to hit a 1 iron like Hogan.



    http://www.mobipocket.com/en/eBooks/eBookDetails.asp?BookID=140329
    Posted:
  • svsvincenzosvsvincenzo Members  1822WRX Points: 0Posts: 1,822
    Joined:  #232
    two stroke wrote:


    JD3, so, a successful intructional tool?




    This is the Hogan forum! You don't know what you're talking about! Go create your own forum!
    Posted:
  • GolfWRXGolfWRX Warning Points: 0  11 Members Posts: 11 #ad
    Joined:  ...

    Advertisement
  • dapdap Members  2618WRX Points: 185Posts: 2,618 Titanium Tees
    Joined:  #233
    two stroke wrote:


    This conversation has zig-zagged all over the place. In it's course, the group has been subject to an ongoing series of bizarre personal attacks and a suspiciously protective masculine obssession that some collectively foster regarding Ben Hogan.



    The discussion began on the topic of the 1-iron. Presently, it is superficially concerned with whether or not one strikes up or down upon a golf ball.



    Conceding that 5 Lessons is the most successful instructional book ever written for average golfers looking to break 80 in 6 months, I would like to redirect some focus back to the 1-iron for one second.



    Does one hit the ball above or below the equator with the clubface of the 1-iron to launch the ball to its destination?


    The secret to hitting a Hogan like 1 iron is not above or below but at an angle...precisely 22 degrees inside out.
    Posted:
  • jrich99jrich99 Members  374WRX Points: 0Posts: 374
    Joined:  #234
    Look at the infamous 1 iron picture. I'd say there's definitely a good divot there:
    Posted:
  • jrich99jrich99 Members  374WRX Points: 0Posts: 374
    Joined:  #235

    Not Yogi wrote:


    Two Stroke...hostility and jealousy are stepbrothers. There has been a long fought war between two camps. The long dominated PGA party liners that insist hitting down to make the ball go up....and all the others. Guys like Martinez and Squish are obvious rebels, but they're right. I'd never heard of either one until just recently, but they both stuck out as searchers and willing teachers. Both have helped many, myself especially.



    Five lessons, on the other hand, not so much. In spite of all the beautiful drawings that graphically show what Hogan is saying, none of the drawings show the moment of impact. Lots and lots of the set up and followthrough illustrations, but none of impact...and shortly thereafter. Why?



    I think Hogan wanted all the imitators to take those meatloaf sized divots one takes when you hit hard down. There's enough video of Hogan taking no divot or just a small quarter size chunk just under where the ball sat....not forward of where the ball was. His low spiral attack was the sweeping of the club with contact coming just at the lowest part of the arc just as the club was rising.




    Virtually every bit of Trackman data taken from good players shows a decending clubhead through impact with everything but a driver (and perhaps teed up fairway woods). Now if you want to say that the hands and/or left shoulder are leveling out and/or rising just before impact, that's another matter entirely. "Hitting up" on a ball sitting on the ground is nonsense and is the disease of most chops.



    And just how would a hand sketched illustration of Hogan 2" after the cover illustration tell us anything that the cover illustration doesn't? Hogan certainly took divots, yes shallow ones due to his low swing but divots nonetheless, Plenty of film and photographic evidence of that. I think you're just trying to see something that isn't there.



    Here's just one example of many that are easily found. I'm sure we could agree that if one were to just scrape the ground and not take a divot, a 4 iron would be a prime candidate for that:







    Here's a 6 iron. Look at the size of that beaver pelt!






    Someone gets it....
    Posted:
  • dapdap Members  2618WRX Points: 185Posts: 2,618 Titanium Tees
    Joined:  #236
    For Yogi fans,hitting a 1 iron requires bodily perfect,boneless,musclelessly loose and fluent swings....PERFECT!
    Posted:
  • JD3JD3 Members  5055WRX Points: 402Posts: 5,055 Titanium Tees
    Joined:  edited Aug 1, 2011 #237
    jak_bot wrote:


    That cover picture from 5L is POST IMPACT!!! The ball is in flight, look at the little lines coming out of the back of the ball.


    Jak, Im pretty sure it's prior to impact. Ball is positioned where he wants at setup. Those lines are some artistic freedom using a faux-shadow or blades of grass to indicate the target line.



    To answer your question from a few pages back, that illustation sure is a candidate for single most important. Could be carved up in sections (like one of those side of beef grids) to highlight several important principles.



    wpid-51fv633LeqLSL500.jpg
    Posted:
    Cobra SZ 9 Hzrdus Yellow 6.0
    TM M1 2016 3W HL Tensei CK White 70x 
    Ping G410 HB 19 KBS Graphite Tour Hybrid 85s+
    Callaway Apex 2019 4 - AW KBS Tour 120s (hard stepped 1x)
    Yururi Tataki Wedges 52.5 and 60.5 KBS Hi-Rev 2.0x
    Ping Anser 2 Milled
    NDMC Grips (extra wrap lower half to reduce taper)
    Titleist AVX 
    UA Jordan Spieth 2
    Footjoy Tour Glove (optional, often times play without glove)
  • GolfWRXGolfWRX Warning Points: 0  11 Members Posts: 11 #ad
    Joined:  ...

    Advertisement
  • jabrchjabrch Members  3915WRX Points: 1Posts: 3,915 Bunkers
    Joined:  #238
    Could he? Sure he COULD. I think the better question is actually, IF Hogan were playing today, given modern woods and hybrids, WOULD he hit a 1 iron...and I highly doubt it. We are starting to see more and more professional golfers drop their 3 iron. I think the 1 Iron is going the way of the dinosaur.
    Posted:
    Ping G30 Tour 65
    Callaway XR Pro 3 Wood
    Callaway Xhot 3 and 4 Hybrid
    Callaway XR 5-AW - Recoil 680 F4 shafts
    Vokey 60 degree
    STX Putter
  • jak_botjak_bot Members  628WRX Points: 50Posts: 628 Bunkers
    Joined:  #239
    JD3 wrote:

    jak_bot wrote:


    That cover picture from 5L is POST IMPACT!!! The ball is in flight, look at the little lines coming out of the back of the ball.


    Jak, Im pretty sure it's prior to impact. Ball is positioned where he wants at setup. Those lines are some artistic freedom using a faux-shadow or blades of grass to indicate the target line.



    To answer your question from a few pages back, that illustation sure is a candidate for single most important. Could be carved up in sections (like one of those side of beef grids) to highlight several important principles.



    wpid-51fv633LeqLSL500.jpg




    I respect your opinion, but the lines coming out from the back of the ball are not artistic impression or shading. If you look at every other ball drawn in 5L they do not have lines coming out of the back of the ball as this represents a stationary ball. All the shading of those balls are done on the inside part of the circle which represents the ball.



    Besides, the subtext from where this picture has nothing to do with impact. Actually, this picture is from page 19 of the book where it is accompanied by another drawing, and if you draw a vertical line from Hogans' chin down to the ground you will see that the picture on the left and right are at different points in the swing. This further proves that the above posted picture which is also found on page 19 is post impact with the ball already in flight.
    Posted:
  • JD3JD3 Members  5055WRX Points: 402Posts: 5,055 Titanium Tees
    Joined:  edited Aug 1, 2011 #240
    You make a good case, although I dont see lines coming out back of ball, I see them behind the clubhead. I believe they exist to provide an important target line visual reference. The ball has some shading on the back. But I can see an argument it appears to be launching at a right angle to the clubface.



    If you're correct, Id say tracing the blurred clubhead path confirms it was descending before, during and after impact.
    Posted:
    Cobra SZ 9 Hzrdus Yellow 6.0
    TM M1 2016 3W HL Tensei CK White 70x 
    Ping G410 HB 19 KBS Graphite Tour Hybrid 85s+
    Callaway Apex 2019 4 - AW KBS Tour 120s (hard stepped 1x)
    Yururi Tataki Wedges 52.5 and 60.5 KBS Hi-Rev 2.0x
    Ping Anser 2 Milled
    NDMC Grips (extra wrap lower half to reduce taper)
    Titleist AVX 
    UA Jordan Spieth 2
    Footjoy Tour Glove (optional, often times play without glove)
  • GolfWRXGolfWRX Warning Points: 0  11 Members Posts: 11 #ad
    Joined:  ...

    Advertisement
  • JOEGOLFWRXJOEGOLFWRX Members  1126WRX Points: 0Posts: 1,126
    Joined:  #241
    imo



    he didnt think it was one of the 'fundamentals' so he didnt mention it. he had a theme of wanting max speed after impact with no left wrist breakdown which is stock easiest to achieve with a negative AoA, but i doubt he thought it was a necessity, his divots seemed to vary alot some 1 irons big some wedges as good as none, but i never seen him 'dig'. he could even be playing around with horizontal/vertical gear effect, who knows.
    Posted:
9

Leave a Comment

Rich Text Editor. To edit a paragraph's style, hit tab to get to the paragraph menu. From there you will be able to pick one style. Nothing defaults to paragraph. An inline formatting menu will show up when you select text. Hit tab to get into that menu. Some elements, such as rich link embeds, images, loading indicators, and error messages may get inserted into the editor. You may navigate to these using the arrow keys inside of the editor and delete them with the delete or backspace key.