Is scratch possible for everybody?

[pkwilli1999]

People like Dan of the dan plan think that with enough deliberate practice you can get to that level.

 

Do you think it is attainable for everybody or is it a destiny combined with practice?

 

PK

[Jamboy72]

No, I do not believe that "scratch" is attainable for anyone - To me, it's like saying that anyone could run a 4.5/40 yd. dash given enough practice and training...

Perhaps, it's possible theoretically, but there's a lot of things which sound good in theory, but in practice, they kind of fall apart and when combined with a marketing (read: profit making venture) approach, I think there's a lot of snake oil involved...

[drewtaylor21]

Realistically, no. Jobs, family, other desires, etc all take away from the time required for most to get to that level.

Given an unlimited amount of practice time, access to coaching, equipment, and barring physical disability and old age, YES I think it is possible for anyone to get to scratch.

[90isagoodday]

Golf is nothing like sprinting. Golf has so little to do with genetic predispositions and other uncontrollables.

Given ample practice time to groove out a good repeatable swing and consistent short game, anyone could be scratch. That being said, 95% of us wont put in the time/money/effort to get to that level.

Compare that to running a 4.4 40. I could take supplements and train with the US Olympic team every day and never run that time due to physical limitations. Look at the fat old dudes on the senior tour... if they can still put up red numbers, anyone without a physical ailment should be able to with enough work.

[JamesFoote]

I don't think so. Not everyone is born with the physical coordination is takes to play at that kind of level. I think hard work will get you a fair way, but not to holy grail of 0.0.

And i scientifically base this on absolutely nothing

[kekoa]

Not attainable for everyone. I firmly beleive you need some gifted talent and a certain handicap level to begin with. At my best, i was a good 3. If i practiced everday for a year with proper coaching i beleive i could reach scratch. In reality, life gets in the way and i only got to play once a week with intermittent practicing. Therefore i never improved. Its not impossible, but extremely difficult.

Im throwing numbers out there, but i think only a guy starting at a mid single index (say 5 and below) has what it takes to be scratch. There will be those outliers but they will be few and far between imo.

[502 to Right]

[quote name='drewtaylor21' timestamp='1405571287' post='9717805']
Realistically, no. Jobs, family, other desires, etc all take away from the time required for most to get to that level.

[/quote]

It's not about time. Golf at a very high level requires a skill involving hand-eye coordination that cannot be learned.

I laugh when I read about people saying they could be scratch or better if they practiced more. For the vast majority of golfers it would NEVER happen.

To me it's as laughable as someone thinking they could practice baseball enough to throw a 90 mph fastball or practice track enough to run a 4 minute mile.

[ratspros]

Not even close. No!!! How many people already play over 100 rounds a year and can't break 90? No way everyone could be a scratch. Some people have zero athletic ability, they could deliberately practice all they want and improve zero strokes.

[ABgolfer2]

[quote name='drewtaylor21' timestamp='1405571287' post='9717805']
Realistically, no. Jobs, family, other desires, etc all take away from the time required for most to get to that level.

Given an unlimited amount of practice time, access to coaching, equipment, and barring physical disability and old age, YES I think it is possible for anyone to get to scratch.
[/quote] You said no, then you excluded a sh**load of people and said yes. I think you nailed it the first time.

[502 to Right]

[quote name='90isagoodday' timestamp='1405571552' post='9717823']
Golf is nothing like sprinting. Golf has so little to do with genetic predispositions and other uncontrollables.

Given ample practice time to groove out a good repeatable swing and consistent short game, anyone could be scratch. That being said, 95% of us wont put in the time/money/effort to get to that level.

Compare that to running a 4.4 40. I could take supplements and train with the US Olympic team every day and never run that time due to physical limitations. Look at the fat old dudes on the senior tour... if they can still put up red numbers, anyone without a physical ailment should be able to with enough work.
[/quote]

Baloney. Golf takes a certain level of skill that cannot be learned.

[drewtaylor21]

[quote name='ABgolfer2' timestamp='1405571709' post='9717849']
[quote name='drewtaylor21' timestamp='1405571287' post='9717805']
Realistically, no. Jobs, family, other desires, etc all take away from the time required for most to get to that level.

Given an unlimited amount of practice time, access to coaching, equipment, and barring physical disability and old age, YES I think it is possible for anyone to get to scratch.
[/quote] You said no, then you excluded a sh**load of people and said yes. I think you nailed it the first time.
[/quote]

Haha well the reason I said what I did was because I don't believe golfers are held back from scratch because of physical shortcomings. Literally every bad golfer I've ever seen has no idea what they are doing (need a good coach), and they don't ever really practice correctly. Of course those people will never reach scratch! But for people to say that it's impossible because of things like hand eye coordination and other physical limitations, I just couldn't disagree more.

With proper coaching and a lot of intelligent practice, anyone can reach scratch, and I think that's what the OP was actually asking.

[nbg352]

Natural ability plays a very significant role in the quest to become really good at any sport. You have to be born with the gift of good hand eye coordination. You have to be blessed with eyes that can read greens, feel slope. And you have to have those soft hands, a soft touch and feel. You need the right kind of smarts to see the hole the way it needs to be seen in order to play it well A determined person can develop some of these things enough to become relatively proficent, but I don't believe that scratch is likely unless you have the right genetic make up to start with. I believe that this is true with any highly skilled activity. Most of us are just not put together in such a way that we are able to excel in all things. We are limited by our genetic makeup regardless of our resolve.

[Forged4ever]

Nope, scratch is not attainable for everyone-

As a matter of fact, it's not attainable for about 98% of those that swing a club.

Forget about coulda, shoulda, woulda-

The bottom line is that to get to scratch, and I'm talkin about a scratch that can play to that in money games or tournaments-

Well, that takes more ability, dedication, focus and drive than 98% of those swinging a club have-

Nice thread Patrick

Fairways & Greens My Friend,
Richard

[skylargolf]

I don't think so. There's certain physical limitations that can inhibit certain people, but I think it is for the average person.

[isaacbm]

Ok, forget about the 4 minute mile. What about being a 90% free throw shooter. What about bowling a perfect game, what about throwing multiple perfect games in a row in darts, what about running 3 racks in a row at 9 ball, or any other things that "don't require physical gifts."

It's all wishful thinking. I've been around great golfers all my life and none of them weren't at a high level within 3 years of taking up the game. If you have it you have it. If you don't you don't.

I'd say maybe 5-10 percent of the population has the "potential" to reach scratch. You need the type of physical and mental skills to start out with and then with a bit of time and practice you can get there. And I did say a bit. Not crazy amounts of time. If you are one of those people and then you work at it you'll get there but otherwise I don't think you will.

As far as the Dan plan goes, we've talked this over for months and months on this site. Even if the guy got to a level where he was shooting under 75 regularily on a slope 120 rated 70 golf course, he wouldn't break 85 in a tournament from 7300 sloped 145. Golf and tournament golf are not even remotely the same thing. Either a person has the mentality for tournament golf or they don't. I know 25 scratch golfers at their home track that can't break 77 in tournaments.

Why do we all have to be the same? Can't we all have our own gifts? Why do we all have to be able to be great at everything?

[Yepyukon]

To paraphrase Ratatouille, "Not everyone can be a scratch golfer, but a scratch golfer can be anyone."

[drewtaylor21]

[quote name='502 to Right' timestamp='1405571674' post='9717835']
[quote name='drewtaylor21' timestamp='1405571287' post='9717805']
Realistically, no. Jobs, family, other desires, etc all take away from the time required for most to get to that level.

[/quote]

It's not about time. Golf at a very high level requires a skill involving hand-eye coordination that cannot be learned.

I laugh when I read about people saying they could be scratch or better if they practiced more. For the vast majority of golfers it would NEVER happen.

To me it's as laughable as someone thinking they could practice baseball enough to throw a 90 mph fastball or practice track enough to run a 4 minute mile.
[/quote]

First, scratch golf isn't a "very high level" of golf. It is good, certainly, but given the USGA handicap system, you don't even need to shoot even par to become scratch.

Second, scratch golf is not unattainable because of physical ability. People can hit it 220 off the tee and become scratch, no question. This eliminates the issue of needing even average athletic abilities. There are so many equalizers in golf - the mind, the short game, the putter, course management, etc. This is not the case in your examples of throwing a baseball 90 mph or running a 4 minute mile or 4.5/40 or whatever athletic accomplishment you want to talk about. Those are things that truly can't be taught unless you are already close with just your natural level of ability.

Getting to scratch can be accomplished in many different ways, but the key in the long game is simply about learning face and path control. With good teaching and quality practice, anyone can learn those 2 things at at least a passable level.

Beyond that, learning to manage one's game, and learning to chip, pitch, and putt are all that are required. I believe anyone can learn these things. Most don't, and most don't practice with any intelligence at all. That's the problem in my eyes.

[Reasonability]

Mmmmmmmmmmmmm no.

But, I contend there is another issue that has nothing to do with genetic predisposition for hand-eye coordination or the time required to "get it".

Despite the internet, books, DVDs, instruction, forums like this... the actual teaching philosophies are WAY TOO FRAGMENTED. It is a hazy mazy mess trying to just learn the right posture. Feet are shoulder width apart... great. If that's all it took I would have been scratch in a week.

The grip -- ever notice how its all about V's pointing somewhere and then it's a matter of "pick your own poison between ten-finger, overlap, interlock?

Then go figure out the takeaway and correct positions at the top. Google transition -- a thousand versions out there. .

Try and buy a putter. There's only about 100 of them on the shelf. Then we say "Oh well you need a lesson!" Good idea! Who is going to teach it?

Then we say -- you need to be put in front of Trackman! Cool -- so that will depend on who is teaching you HOW to actually setup and move the club.

What will this teacher ascribe to? Rotary? Stack? Single Plane? Two Plane? Why are there so many? How does a learning golfer get close to scratch? Then we tell them to practice. The secret is "in the dirt" And this why the range is full of people chunking every iron? Practice WHAT for heaven sakes?

This game is difficult. It isn't made easier by the messy stuff needed to learn it. I maintain MORE scratch golfers would exist if this fragmented mess wasn't out there. I also believe this will change. There will come that rock star teacher, better and simpler teaching methods, equipment will continue to be game improvement oriented, and while scores of golfers STILL won't be scratch -- I believe more will on a percentage basis.

[grumpy84]

no

[DeNinny]

No, but I do believe strongly that it is possible for anybody that wants to put their utmost commitment to it. About 5% of the time that's me. Baby steps...

[Mitchell]

Not possible for everyone due to differences in personality,competitive nature, priorities, self-discipline, etc. Despite what some recently would have you believe, there is no satisfaction in everyone getting a trophy.
"What do you do when you achieve your dreams? Get bigger dreams" - John Wooden

[Mulligan26]

Quite simply, no its not possible. But not because of athleticism but because of time. A perfect example is myself and a member at my club. He's in his 70 ' s and has been scratch or better for longer than I've been alive. Me? I'm a 6 or 7 but honestly I don't care, once I pass the PAT I'm going to be listed at 0.0 regardless of how I play anyway. I out drive Sam by probably 30 yards from three sets of tees back but I've never beaten him and to be honest I probably never will. Sam has "IT" and I do not. I'm sure I could shave those 6 or 7 shots down if I wasn't working 50+ hours a week.

[CallawayLefty]

Some of these comparisons are pretty far off.

4 minute mile = a guy who has won 3+ majors

90 mph fastball/4.4 40 time= your run of the mill PGA tour player

Scratch is great, and I've never made it, but there are probably 1,000 guys at any one time around my mid sized hometown that carry a scratch or better handicap. Not sure the same can be said of the other things above.

Edit: I cheated and looked and it looks like the 4 minute mile isn't as elite as I thought. Sounds like it still at minimum equates to your average PGA tour player.

[vballer08]

No way can any and everyone get to scratch with enough time and practice. If you have not seen the Worlds worst avid golfer tournament, held at TPC Sawgrass, look it up. The guy who won shot over 250 from the tips and took a 66 on the 17th hole. There is no chance he could ever become scratch.

[ocburg17]

Kinda cheating here...

Scratch is not attainable for everyone. Everyone is too big a bucket and I know some pretty un-athletic people (don't confuse athletic with skinny, muscular or other). I also play in a work/fun league. There are guys that will never be scratch or even single digit no matter the time/effort/money put into the game.

One point that is missing is the metal aspect. No matter how well your swing is on the range, some don't have the mental side to translate that to the course.

I will say that it is attainable for a lot of golfers. If you can get down to a single digit HC, I think you can get to scratch given the involvement.

Same with any sport, if you are good enough, you can be great with the right amount of dedication.

[rsj1360]

100% absolutely not. No matter how much time/practice that [i]most[/i] people put into it they would not be scratch golfers.

[HighSpeedScene]

No - for example, Tiger will never suck enough to get to scratch

[gmangolf]

There are too many factors to say yes. Getting to scratch for most players requires a combination of physical ability, decision making and mental stability and not everyone has (or can develop) all three.

[596]

If you are involved in any sport you know for a fact that not everyone has the same abilities. Some people are just not meant to be athletic, and for some reason alot of them choose golf. I've played competitive soccer, basketball, tennis, cycling, and triathlons. There is a huge difference in abilities. Everyone can not be the best no matter how much they train. I've known personal trainers, one in particular, in excellent shape, worked out every singe day and never once in 10 years did he ever come even close to beating me in a triathlon or running race. Even though I ran 10% of the mileage he did. He chose to be a triathlete, he loved it, he lived it, but he will never be great at it. God says so!!

Just because you choose to play golf does not mean you WILL be scatch, even with the same amount of work that a PGA Tour pro puts in. Sorry to burst the bubble of those trying to get to scratch but you may never make it solely due to natural god given ability. You can want it all you want, you can hit 10,000's of range balls, you can hire a mental coach, you can hire a swing coach and none of it will help you get to scratch if you don't have the inate god given ability to be able to get there.

[llewol007]

Its all about time, dedication and natural ability.