Is scratch possible for everybody?

[highergr0und]

I think your potential diminishes the more you play and practice badly..... and by some point we remove ourselves completely by ingraining terrible habits to a point of no return.

A more interesting question would be potential to shoot par. You only have to be a decent golfer to get to the point to have a fairly realistically shot of doing it someday.

[nbg352]

I think that if everyone was capable of getting to scratch there would be a lot more of them out there than there really are. And of course if there were more scratches there'd be more plus players and if there were more plus players............
This same thought process can be used throughout sports. And you know what? There aren't more scratch golfers, there aren't more high caliber hockey players or football players or......And there aren't more because very few people are designed to be high caliber athletes and no amount of "proper" training will get them there. Not everyone really belongs on the team, not everyone is good enough to deserve a medal or the gold star. No matter what parents and other caregivers tell us.

[scotee]

Look at Charles Barkley golf swing. Look at Lebron James golf swing. Do we even need to ask?

[GooseHook]

[quote name='kingschiff' timestamp='1405614212' post='9720927']
all practice, some athletic ability involved IMO...
[/quote]

Combination of work ethic, time available, instruction, and innate ability.

You can have probably 3 of 4 and still be at or near scratch IMO. But most people don't have time.

[vbb]

I love this topic. I have asked (and posted) something similar myself.

My answer is a firm NO, not everyone can be scratch. There seem to be three categories good golfers, all who have the ability to be scratch or better.

1.) The "I was introduced to the game as a kid" golfer. These guys are fundamentally sound and learned the right way. Not everyone that played as a kid is scratch as an adult obviously... but many of the truly good players that I've met have been playing since they were a teenager or earlier. They had instruction and time, and that allowed them to build a strong base. Some of them took that the next level and kept grinding to get better, and others quit the game, only to pick it up 10 years later and then shoot 90 on their 3rd round out. It's like learning a language as a kid... always easier than learning a new language as an adult.

2.) The range rat. This isn't limited to just the range, but these are the guys that play and practice ALL THE TIME. They approach golf as an intellectual challenge as much as a physical one. They learn the swing, learn what the pros are doing, and then put in the hours until they can create a reasonable facsimile of what they see. These guys can build a solid game and been regarded as a "good stick" around their hometown, but probably won't be able to join the senior tour at 50 or anything like that. Plus, these are the guys that somehow have the time to put in 20-40hrs a week on golf.

3.) The natural. These are the guys that pick up the game and within a few months are already breaking 100. WIthin a year or so they're breaking 90 or better. These are the guys that somehow have a natural aptitude to the game, be it supreme hand-eye coordination or something else. I find a lot of former baseball and hockey players fit this category. They just go out and within a few years are already in the 70s.

Then there are the rest of us. I played soccer as a kid and all through my 20s, so the hand-eye thing wasn't really my bag. I didn't pick up the sticks until I was in my 20s, so the learning it as a kid wasn't my thing either. Lastly, I don't have the time to really grind down on my game to see how good I can be. I do know that with time and practice, one will get better at golf. I have devoted much of 2014 to really working on my game, and have already seen results. But at this rate, I'd need to spend 20 hrs a week each week grinding my a$$ off to get anywhere close to scratch, and I don't have that time or freedom. So I am going to have to be content with maybe getting myself to the point where I'm maybe a high single digit that can break 80 with some regularity. That's my hope anyway. I'm not even thinking about scratch.

[alam]

No, not possible for everyone. Having the ability to consistently repeat a swing is a skill. Some people can practice perfectly all they want and will improve, but they will still be unable to reproduce the same swing to be consistent enough to become scratch.

[quickstrike10]

No its not attainable for everyone. Some people are just blessed with so much more talent and ability than others at basically any game, but especially golf. However, thru practice, focusing on strengths, and minimizing weakness in your game many personal goals are reachable.

[highergr0und]

[quote name='GooseHook' timestamp='1405615769' post='9721177']
[quote name='kingschiff' timestamp='1405614212' post='9720927']
all practice, some athletic ability involved IMO...
[/quote]

Combination of work ethic, time available, instruction, and innate ability.

You can have probably 3 of 4 and still be at or near scratch IMO. But most people don't have time.
[/quote]

To me, of those 4, only one really matters to be scratch, and that's innate ability. Most very good golfers get there quickly. Without it, the other three items become basically worthless

[Roody]

Of all the golfers I know in my social circles, I believe I play more golf than any of them (average 70-80 rounds per season). I'm currently down to a 7.6 index, the lowest I've ever been. But it's taken me 19 years just to get this far. I'm probably considered average-to-below-average athletic ability, I'm short (5'8"), so I can't generate the power that taller guys can generate naturally. I've broken 80 probably 2 dozen times in my life, and those times that I have I think it takes an incredible amount of mental fortitude to do it.

So no, I think some of us are not gifted enough to attain scratch because of physical limitations, and even more so because we don't have the mental game.

[BdaGolfer]

Here on GolfWRX we have 330,000+ enthusiastic golfers, each spending way more time than the average golfer playing, practicing, thinking about the game. How many are scratch?

I think a better question is "can everyone be a single-digit golfer?", though for me the answer is still no. Not everyone out there can even break 100 (as I have witnessed in my last 2 rounds with 3 different people).

Alan

[hbear]

No.

Golf is a game of skill, not everybody has the required skill (and no amount of practice will teach them).
Then add the physical requirements, yes there are great out of shape players....but the good ones ALL have the required flexibility, hand eye coordination, ability to deliver a flat surface to a round ball with enough speed to get required distance and enough accuracy for a reasonably predictable flight path repeatably.

It's a difficult game, guys like to believe they can achieve it (if I only had more time).....BS. You either have it or you don't.
(time coming from a guy that played to a +1)

[Yepyukon]

[quote name='scotee' timestamp='1405615503' post='9721127']
Look at Charles Barkley golf swing. Look at Lebron James golf swing. Do we even need to ask?
[/quote]

Barkley was actually a single digit HC before he was told that "all good players have a pause at the top of their swing." But I agree, there is no way he gets to scratch now.

[someon3]

[quote name='pkwilli1999' timestamp='1405567907' post='9717523']
People like Dan of the dan plan think that with enough deliberate practice you can get to that level.

Do you think it is attainable for everybody or is it a destiny combined with practice?

PK
[/quote]
Simple answer: nope

[juststeve]

The answer is no and I wonder how many of the people arguing to the contrary play to scratch themselves.

Steve

[buckeyefl]

[quote name='pkwilli1999' timestamp='1405567907' post='9717523']
People like Dan of the dan plan think that with enough deliberate practice you can get to that level.

Do you think it is attainable for everybody or is it a destiny combined with practice?

PK
[/quote]

Nope not even close to attainable for everyone.

[Forged4ever]

[quote name='juststeve' timestamp='1405633950' post='9723329']
The answer is no and I wonder how many of the people arguing to the contrary play to scratch themselves.

Steve
[/quote]None


Good Post!

Have a nicemweek-end


Fairways & Greens My Friend,
Richard

[ABgolfer2]

[quote name='Yepyukon' timestamp='1405623740' post='9722145']
[quote name='scotee' timestamp='1405615503' post='9721127']
Look at Charles Barkley golf swing. Look at Lebron James golf swing. Do we even need to ask?
[/quote]

Barkley was actually a single digit HC before he was told that "all good players have a pause at the top of their swing." But I agree, there is no way he gets to scratch now.
[/quote] That's an internet legend.

[birdiemachine11]

There is a lot more that goes into being a scratch golfer thats not physical. Course management, which I believe can be learned properly by anyone is one of these things.

At a small local course, a guy that plays there everyday shot 59 and broke the course record. He's a senior player and if you saw him hit balls, you wouldn't think there is a chance that he could break 80, much less set a course record. But somehow he hits these low, God awful looking shots that run about 50 yards and knows how to play them.

So, yes, after seeing that, I truly do believe that anyone who practices enough can be a scratch player.

[hbear]

Lots if stories about how some guy did this or that.

Bottom line you don't shoot great scores consistently (best 10 of 20) without being a good player. Once players get down to a single digit, only then will they understand how much more difficult it is to shed those last few shots.....margin for error is much less and that makes it tough to do.

There is a good reason why scratch players are in the top 1% of all golfers that play the game.

(Hint it's not just about time and instruction....)

[capt.murphy]

no. I don't care how much you practice you are not getting there without some natural talent. I don't have it. Golf is a struggle for me to keep scores in the 80s for me. My son has natural talent and no interest in golf. He played 9 holes with me last month and shot one over par. He hadn't touched a golf club since last year and doesn't like to play because "its boring." Some people just have a natural ability for some things. maybe he will come around and enjoy golf some day.

[4Par]

[quote name='hbear' timestamp='1405646058' post='9724587']Lots if stories about how some guy did this or that.

Bottom line you don't shoot great scores consistently (best 10 of 20) without being a good player. Once players get down to a single digit, only then will they understand how much more difficult it is to shed those last few shots.....margin for error is much less and that makes it tough to do.

There is a good reason why scratch players are in the top 1% of all golfers that play the game.

(Hint it's not just about time and instruction....)[/quote]

I made a big move last summer from 6.0 to 3.7 in fall..... But we are who we are and I'm starting to head back up despite my best efforts given that I work, have a family, etc.... Even still, I play with lots of scratch players and while our games aren't dissimilar, they have unique skills to get the ball in the hole quicker than 99% of us.....

[bdcava]

[quote name='capt.murphy' timestamp='1405646191' post='9724603']
no. I don't care how much you practice you are not getting there without some natural talent. I don't have it. Golf is a struggle for me to keep scores in the 80s for me. My son has natural talent and no interest in golf. He played 9 holes with me last month and shot one over par. He hadn't touched a golf club since last year and doesn't like to play because "its boring." Some people just have a natural ability for some things. maybe he will come around and enjoy golf some day.
[/quote]

Couldn't agree more. I practice and play a lot, more than any of my playing partners. Every time I play with a single digit golfer I get told I have a good looking swing and nice tempo. I don't break 80 every season. I play between a 9 and a 12. What practice has done for me was limit the really bad shots. It also has taught me how to move the ball both ways. Yet I regularly get beat by guys that don't even know the difference between a fade and a draw. I have to work extremely hard and think my way around the course well to shoot a decent score. It has never come easy. I don't think I could get away with a bad looking swing because I have terrible hand eye coordination ( could never hit well in baseball or field a grounder). Don't get me wrong, I've come to accept my limitations and yet I still strive to get better because I love the journey. I seriously doubt I could get to scratch even if I played every day. Maybe a 5.

[Reasonability]

[quote name='birdiemachine11' timestamp='1405644827' post='9724433']
There is a lot more that goes into being a scratch golfer thats not physical. Course management, which I believe can be learned properly by anyone is one of these things.

At a small local course, a guy that plays there everyday shot 59 and broke the course record. He's a senior player and if you saw him hit balls, you wouldn't think there is a chance that he could break 80, much less set a course record. But somehow he hits these low, God awful looking shots that run about 50 yards and knows how to play them.

So, yes, after seeing that, I truly do believe that anyone who practices enough can be a scratch player.
[/quote]

B'man,

I realize you didn't make this about you personally. That's not at all what you're saying here. But I did want to go ahead and place a bug in your ear.

I think probably YOU can. It's just that its a really big commitment. Like you said mastering the mental game, course management, the short game, general ball striking and a at least a working ability to shape a few shots... its a big job. But I think golfers like you can. You and I have been through your swing and you have talent. With that its going to take a lot of intensive focus -- but you have my vote. Let's put it this way.... the second you believe you can't -- you won't. (the rhetorical "you" for this conversation)

[Conrad1953]

Face it. If everyone could get to scratch most on here wouldn't
play. It would be no fun at all if everyone was scratch.

[drewtaylor21]

It's somewhat sad to me to see all the negativity here.

I have been actively involved in the strength and conditioning/sports performance world for over a decade, as that is my primary interest within my area of expertise. I've had the pleasure of working with professional athletes in multiple sports, elementary, middle/high school, and college kids who are dreaming of becoming professional athletes, and many more regular business men and soccer moms who just want to look good and feel healthy. Throughout the years I've seen so many below average athletes who have surpassed what they were told was possible for them because of [b]gut wrenchingly hard, intelligent work[/b]. I've also listened to a lot of coaches who have been at the very highest levels of sport and soaked up what they had to say about athletes at all levels.

One of the topics that has sparked a lot of interest among coaches in my field is that of genetic potential. Most of the time this is discussed with elite athletes in mind, and tends to involve world records and human performances that seem almost impossible. However, I find it very interesting and get a great deal of joy out of seeing the everyday "joe" or "jane" do things they never thought possible for themselves, whether that is related to strength, endurance, power, or even a weight or body composition result.

The TRUTH is that human beings are capable of SOOOO much more than we think we are! We see stats like "only 2% of golfers ever reach scratch" (or whatever that number actually is...I've never seen any actual evidence of this) and most people's response is to think "wow, I'm no elite athlete. I'll never get there. I'm ok with having fun in men's league and posting rounds in the 80's, 90's or 100's." Please know that there is a [b][u]huge[/u][/b] mental/intestinal fortitude involved in becoming the best version of yourself. Most would rather not get uncomfortable.

How many of those "average" golfers in the 98% have actually WORKED THEIR ASSES OFF to become the best they can?? 30%? 20%? 10%? How many have said to themselves that they will get to scratch or better no matter what it takes?? How much would you be willing to bet that that number is a lot closer to the 2% that actually makes it.....

People are lazy. They want an easier way to do things. Golf is no exception. Heck, I am no exception! I never took lessons because I never wanted to sacrifice my money for lessons when I felt I could figure it out myself. I succeeded in becoming a fairly decent golfer, but how much faster could I have gotten there if I had invested in an intelligent coach and his/her ability to help me? I still wish I had taken lessons from someone like Dan Carraher so that my game would be even better. But WISH is the key word. It's not life or death for me. My family doesn't rely on my golf game for food. It's something I love and it means a lot to me, but yet even at +2, with all the hours I've put in at the range and putting green, I can't force myself to save up $3000 to go see Dan for a weekend to make that next step. Why? Because it's just not THAT important to me.

Also my wife would kill me

The bottom line is this: if something is really truly worth it, you will make it happen, no matter the cost.

YOU have to decide what that cost/benefit ratio is and if you're willing to pay it.

[moneytalks]

Anyone can be scratch as long as you stop playing golf swing and start playing golf . I seriously see that happening on online golf , every person / idiot is looking for that special look . It isn't a look it is a motion that works .

I have played with countless local studs that have terrible swings . But you know what? They can score and score low anywhere . This obsession about look is just crazy I disagree with it and will continue to disagree . I know guys who cast and are steep but are scratch I know guys that have tour swings that can't break 80. . It is really are fault , we keep on buying into there gimmicks and these so called miracle lessons . Guess what , you can make any swing work . Believe in what you are doing , and spend less time listening to online swing coaches / gurus and wannabes . Swing your swing and play your game

[HitEmTrue]

[quote name='birdiemachine11' timestamp='1405644827' post='9724433']
There is a lot more that goes into being a scratch golfer thats not physical. Course management, which I believe can be learned properly by anyone is one of these things.

At a small local course, a guy that plays there everyday shot 59 and broke the course record. He's a senior player and if you saw him hit balls, you wouldn't think there is a chance that he could break 80, much less set a course record. But somehow he hits these low, God awful looking shots that run about 50 yards and knows how to play them.

So, yes, after seeing that, I truly do believe that anyone who practices enough can be a scratch player.
[/quote]

That still requires a certain combination of mental aptitude and physical ability.

Some (or most) just don't have it.

[sjt4718]

If you have decent athletic ability,time and good fundamentals oh and play and practice a hell of a lot-Yes, without a doubt.

[Dinosaur]

I won't. I broke 80 only one time this year. Mostly score mid 80's to low 90's. Some times I have delusions of scoring close to where I was 20 years ago, but even then only occasionally broke 80. I don't expect to get any better, and don't have time anyway. I got nothing to prove, it is what it is.

[scotee]

[quote name='sjt4718' timestamp='1405664345' post='9726165']
If you have decent athletic ability,time and good fundamentals oh and play and practice a hell of a lot-Yes, without a doubt.
[/quote]
That's too many ifs to include the "everybody" in the original question.