No new acquistions...?

[BIG STU]

On 5/6/2023 at 9:56 PM, bcstones said:

think you meant Maltby's guide....it does show a "blackened face" sans explaination...and the CF4000 came out in '59. I just checked a well used CF4000 & it looks like the blackened face wore off to just copper....I don't think copper tarnishes to 'grey' tho....I wonder if they were forged aluminum/bronze, tho Maltby's shows head as forged carbon steel....
Nice set of clubs, I've got some Ryder Cup irons in storage...but they don't mention Burke or Punchiron or Punch, which put's them post 1963...

Good luck on history of what the blackened face was.....have fun playing them

 

The Mac CF faces were some kind of ceramic coating flame heated. I know a few years back Charley Penna explained it. I remember he also stated that the process these days is prohibited by the EPA in the USA. I have only seen one CF finish worn and that was years ago with the 62 FC split sole wedge my old man carried for more than 25 years and I do not remember what it looked like worn. Now I do have one Penna CF that is starting to wear down low on the face. Maybe in a few years and thousands of balls I can answer the question

[Foozle]

On 5/7/2023 at 2:56 AM, bcstones said:

think you meant Maltby's guide....it does show a "blackened face" sans explaination...and the CF4000 came out in '59. I just checked a well used CF4000 & it looks like the blackened face wore off to just copper....I don't think copper tarnishes to 'grey' tho....I wonder if they were forged aluminum/bronze, tho Maltby's shows head as forged carbon steel....
Nice set of clubs, I've got some Ryder Cup irons in storage...but they don't mention Burke or Punchiron or Punch, which put's them post 1963...

Good luck on history of what the blackened face was.....have fun playing them

 

My understanding of the MacGregor FC4000 black face coating is that it was a ceramic coating designed as protection for space capsules re-entering earth's atmosphere. The 4000 being a reference to the temperature the Flame Ceramic could withstand. 

I don't know how much of a marketing gimmick that was? MacGregor used the rocket motif for its Velocitized woods at around the same time and obviously space travel was a big thing in the late '50's / early '60's and so represented the pinnacle of innovation and therefore marketing at that time.

Whether there is a genuine space connection or not, I agree with @BIG STUthat FC4000 is very durable. I don't think the faces on any of my sets are worn through.

The original process was outlawed and later repro models are much less hardwaring. MacGregor even produced repro FC4000 with no coating at all which I always thought was rather pointless! 

Cerakote gives a good representation of the original FC4000. Brother @bradmeehanhas an excellent video on its application.

[bcstones]

@BIG STU  @Foozle  just went out to find the CF4000 club I looked at yesterday....it was a Louise Suggs CF4000 S3T 6 iron w/a MacGregor Tourney 3 shaft. Ya'll are correct, I saw a reddish/copperish "stuff" on the mid-face. I just cleaned it up & can still see a worn spot mid-face but all black, as you both said....It's a nice club, still has a beautiful intact leather grip.
Thanks for intriguing me to double check what I thought I saw yesterday....also realized that the set I was thinking of, is a copper faced Tourney set, that came in the year between the ColoKrom & CF4000

double checked Kaplan's for date....seems that 1964 was the year this style of CF4000 & was not only the last year of CF4000, but also it seems that it is the last time Louise Suggs shows up in Kaplan's

Edited May 10, 2023 by bcstones
oops...S3T not 83T

[cold_war_era_golfer]

On 5/6/2023 at 8:56 PM, bcstones said:

think you meant Maltby's guide....it does show a "blackened face" sans explaination...and the CF4000 came out in '59. I just checked a well used CF4000 & it looks like the blackened face wore off to just copper....I don't think copper tarnishes to 'grey' tho....I wonder if they were forged aluminum/bronze, tho Maltby's shows head as forged carbon steel....
Nice set of clubs, I've got some Ryder Cup irons in storage...but they don't mention Burke or Punchiron or Punch, which put's them post 1963...

Good luck on history of what the blackened face was.....have fun playing them

 

I've seen worn Spalding Top Flites from that era showing a copper underplating but I believe that was standard practice for Spalding at the time.  

A few summers ago all I did was play FC 4000 irons.  Every model from 59-66.  It was interesting how both the Tommy Armour and MacGregor Tourney lines in '59 had FC coating but the Armour line dropped it by '61.  By '66 the FC was just a smaller portion of the face.   

 

Anyway, I haven't seen any FC model worn down to copper.  I don't think MacGregor did that under platting like Spalding did.  I have seen a lot of worn off FC models though.  Even the worn ones seem to have more life left in the face/grooves than other clubs from that era.  It certainly lengthened their lifespan . 

 

[bcstones]

6 hours ago, cold_war_era_golfer said:

I've seen worn Spalding Top Flites from that era showing a copper underplating but I believe that was standard practice for Spalding at the time.  

A few summers ago all I did was play FC 4000 irons.  Every model from 59-66.  It was interesting how both the Tommy Armour and MacGregor Tourney lines in '59 had FC coating but the Armour line dropped it by '61.  By '66 the FC was just a smaller portion of the face.   

 

Anyway, I haven't seen any FC model worn down to copper.  I don't think MacGregor did that under platting like Spalding did.  I have seen a lot of worn off FC models though.  Even the worn ones seem to have more life left in the face/grooves than other clubs from that era.  It certainly lengthened their lifespan . 

 

I think our posts crossed, as I was editing my post right above yours ....totally agree w/you, Big Stu, & Fozzle. Thank for the info on Spalding, I really don't know much about the brand only the pyratone era that fit my Dad's clubs era.

[Brewski_golfs]

On 5/6/2023 at 9:56 PM, bcstones said:

think you meant Maltby's guide....it does show a "blackened face" sans explaination...and the CF4000 came out in '59. I just checked a well used CF4000 & it looks like the blackened face wore off to just copper....I don't think copper tarnishes to 'grey' tho....I wonder if they were forged aluminum/bronze, tho Maltby's shows head as forged carbon steel....
Nice set of clubs, I've got some Ryder Cup irons in storage...but they don't mention Burke or Punchiron or Punch, which put's them post 1963...

Good luck on history of what the blackened face was.....have fun playing them

 

Yes Maltby, got my wires crossed.  Just to show a comparison here is how the PGA looks next to a CF4000 PT2.  The CF4000 clearly has a ceramic coating, while the PGA looks like they simply skipped the chrome on the face, and then applied some black paint.  When I first got them it was definitely closer to black, but it was also rusting, after proper cleaning this is what was left.  This really looks to me like they were trying to copy Macgregor with a cheaper process.   Regardless I took them to the range and didn’t really like how they felt, kind of harsh at impact.  Will likely send them on their way.  

[ezgoer]

I have a CF PT3 DS wedge to go with my PT1 set and pretty sure the ceramic is worn off to the metal on the lower grooves. Will get a picture tomorrow. Another reason to clean your grooves or at least wipe the face with something after every shot including the range. Biggest reason why forged irons wear out is hitting dirty faces. One of the things I like the most of the Mac CFs is the noise they make. Sounds like you have an extra 10 mph of club head speed. Some say gimmick but they are cool to play. I like the look of those PGA’s too bad they didn’t make the cut. 

Edited May 11, 2023 by ezgoer

[bcstones]

18 hours ago, Brewski_golfs said:

Yes Maltby, got my wires crossed.  Just to show a comparison here is how the PGA looks next to a CF4000 PT2.  The CF4000 clearly has a ceramic coating, while the PGA looks like they simply skipped the chrome on the face, and then applied some black paint.  When I first got them it was definitely closer to black, but it was also rusting, after proper cleaning this is what was left.  This really looks to me like they were trying to copy Macgregor with a cheaper process.   Regardless I took them to the range and didn’t really like how they felt, kind of harsh at impact.  Will likely send them on their way.  

Hmmm.....I have a set of 1958 MacGregor's (the year between the end of the ColoKrom & the beginning of the CF4000), MacGregor's catalog (via Kaplan) describes the irons as "copper faced" on the first page, & again in the Tommy Armour description - however, in the Louise Suggs description as "bronze face". Bronze is copper & tin w/some other elements...so that could be what you were looking at...as bronze ages, it deepens in color, so when you "clean", you could make it look more metalic....yet in the above pics, it sure looks bronze-ish.
sounds like you've already let them go, did you ever actualy play them rather then just try out on range mats?

[dcopp7]

Hit the motherload today.  Acquired Wilson Staff button back LH set with Woods too, 1959 dynapowers RH, macgregor lord Byron driver, Powell driver, matching Hogan 1,3,4,5 set, wilson "the original" 8802, macgregor DX woods set with keyhole insert, and just a ton more.  Guy was an older collector that was ready to move on from his collection.   Cash was king!

[Stephen8802]

We need pictures!

[No_Catchy_Nickname]

1 hour ago, dcopp7 said:

Hit the motherload today.  Acquired Wilson Staff button back LH set with Woods too, 1959 dynapowers RH, macgregor lord Byron driver, Powell driver, matching Hogan 1,3,4,5 set, wilson "the original" 8802, macgregor DX woods set with keyhole insert, and just a ton more.  Guy was an older collector that was ready to move on from his collection.   Cash was king!

 

[pymmdcp]

Thrifting continues to yield less and less. But last night running some errands I ran into a goodwill I don’t get to visit often. Sure glad idea. Full set of beautiful Standard Forged 85 irons (3-SW) and a few loose beauties. 

[pymmdcp]

Also found this MacGregor Hogan Par Maker iron. No way I’m making par with this but had to pick it up. First time I’ve come across this model. 

[bcstones]

1 hour ago, pymmdcp said:

Also found this MacGregor Hogan Par Maker iron. No way I’m making par with this but had to pick it up. First time I’ve come across this model. 

Interesting...I have a 5,6,7 & 8 Hogan Par-Master. Looked in Kaplan's & it shows the 1949 catalog - "...first introduced by MacGregor in 1948. Using this new blade, Ben Hogan captured his "Triple" - the National Open, the P.G.A. Championship, and the Western Open to set a new all time record, plus winning a host of titles during the year. (1948).."
Fun to know a wee bit of  history....

Edited May 13, 2023 by bcstones

[dcopp7]

On 5/11/2023 at 9:27 PM, Stephen8802 said:

We need pictures!

Here's a few

 

[dcopp7]

I'll get more pics soon.  I also got Rick Smith's staff bag, Spalding red leather.

[Stephen8802]

What a find those '59 Staff are, I love that year. I hope those find their way to someone who will enjoy playing them. Those look to be in about as good of shape as you are going to get.

[Wham49]

On 5/14/2023 at 12:22 PM, dcopp7 said:

Here's a few

 

those are beautiful, probably my fave early set of Dyna's, mine are R though would love a set of stiffs

[dcopp7]

Here's some more pics.  Couple sets of Levelumes and complete LH set of Button Backs w/ the woods

 

[bcstones]

came across these woods today in my favorite local thrift store...I have no idea of the maker, thinking this was a refurbish/rebuild. The 1 & 5 woods are persimmon, the 3 is laminated. They all say "Match Play" on the toe. They all have the same inserts, grips, shafts & sole plate....

 the sole plates seems familar

 

 

 

 

 

 1 & 5 "persimmon". actual laminated closeup

 

 

 3 wood laminated

 

 

 says True Temper, taper R True, made in USA

 

 

 says True Flex, Power Point, made in USA

 

 

 grips all same, I forgot to picture the top (see below)

 

 

 top of 1 & 5 woods

 

 

 a rather poor pic of top of 3 wood

 

Hoping for some info....they really feel nice and solid, all seem to match....but there is that laminated 3 wood???
Thanks for looking...

Edited May 26, 2023 by bcstones
1 & 5 woods are laminated, not persimmon plus I added a picture of the grip top

[NRJyzr]

They're all laminated.  The concentric circles visible on the top of all three of them are the indicator (for me, anyway).

 

[bcstones]

2 hours ago, NRJyzr said:

They're all laminated.  The concentric circles visible on the top of all three of them are the indicator (for me, anyway).

 

ok, thanks, I see what you mean....I'll check again in better light
using a magnifing glass & strong bright light, I guess I can see the striations....good to know. I edited my post. Thanks again

Now would like to figure out the rest...for some reason, the sole plate reminds me of, of, of.....Spalding??? it's got to do with the registration number & how it's put down (kinda sorta reminds me of how my Dad's RTJ Jr Spalding woods looked....

 

Again thanks for the correction....


 

[ezgoer]

 H&B Louisville Slugger Persimmons and Slugger Levelume Irons. These showed up on my local FB Market place. $40 for a complete matching set with leather grips so took a shot it would be worth the 50 mile round trip to get them. Appears to be an extra ladies 5 wood and an old PING Kushin putter. Leather grips are missing a couple end caps but should condition up nicely. They also have that underlying stick or rod on the back side of the grip that feels kinda nice. For a kinda common brand of this day there’s not a ton of information available so would appreciate any, thank you. Similarity to 60’s Mac Tourney irons is obvious so that time frame seems like a safe guess to me. 

Almost a reverse offset with the face slightly more forward when you’re over them. Get some comparison pic’s tomorrow with another driver. Not a small head though. Do you suppose the Standard on the label indicates shaft flex? Initially felt whippy but I hit em ok and the grips are decent size so regular flex at least maybe??

2-9 irons with the same shaft. Picked this set up this morning on my way into work with enough time to stop and hit some range balls. I won’t be surprised if I’m told they are cast. Not an entirely fair comparison but they felt nothing like the 76 Apex’s I was also hitting. Gotta give em another chance cuz the hitting off range mats after we’ve had 3 plus weeks of prime grass growing weather had me incensed. I just cannot make myself hit down on even the best mats. 

Grip needs some roughing up cuz it’s shiny smooth but doesn’t seem cracked. May replace it if I get inspired. What old set isn’t complete without a Kushin. Purchased this morning and straight to the range and now at work so will get a good cleaning and studying tomorrow. 
 

 These will go right into the vintage playing rotation. Gets me 5 full sets and Im a regrip away from a 6th. 

Edited May 27, 2023 by ezgoer

[bcstones]

21 hours ago, ezgoer said:

 H&B Louisville Slugger Persimmons and Slugger Levelume Irons. These showed up on my local FB Market place. $40 for a complete matching set with leather grips so took a shot it would be worth the 50 mile round trip to get them. Appears to be an extra ladies 5 wood and an old PING Kushin putter. Leather grips are missing a couple end caps but should condition up nicely. They also have that underlying stick or rod on the back side of the grip that feels kinda nice. For a kinda common brand of this day there’s not a ton of information available so would appreciate any, thank you. Similarity to 60’s Mac Tourney irons is obvious so that time frame seems like a safe guess to me. 

Almost a reverse offset with the face slightly more forward when you’re over them. Get some comparison pic’s tomorrow with another driver. Not a small head though. Do you suppose the Standard on the label indicates shaft flex? Initially felt whippy but I hit em ok and the grips are decent size so regular flex at least maybe??

2-9 irons with the same shaft. Picked this set up this morning on my way into work with enough time to stop and hit some range balls. I won’t be surprised if I’m told they are cast. Not an entirely fair comparison but they felt nothing like the 76 Apex’s I was also hitting. Gotta give em another chance cuz the hitting off range mats after we’ve had 3 plus weeks of prime grass growing weather had me incensed. I just cannot make myself hit down on even the best mats. 

Grip needs some roughing up cuz it’s shiny smooth but doesn’t seem cracked. May replace it if I get inspired. What old set isn’t complete without a Kushin. Purchased this morning and straight to the range and now at work so will get a good cleaning and studying tomorrow. 
 

 These will go right into the vintage playing rotation. Gets me 5 full sets and Im a regrip away from a 6th. 

They show up in the Kaplan's H&B guide for the year 1965 on the store line page....could have shown up prior but Kaplan did not list store/general/retail lines between 1957 & 1965...the '66 version seems the same, '67 store line missing & the '68 page for store line shows that the levelume is no longer on the back but on the sole....I've got a set of irons also, up for sale anyway, I'm keeping the H&B Atlas irons (mostly till I find a Mars 70 set or single irons). I enjoy the store line...it's the line I started with & played for years....
I think, somewhere in the Classic section, it was said that "levelume" was just H&B's high nickel content chrome....

[ezgoer]

On 5/10/2023 at 9:18 AM, cold_war_era_golfer said:

 

Anyway, I haven't seen any FC model worn down to copper.  I don't think MacGregor did that under platting like Spalding did.  I have seen a lot of worn off FC models though.  Even the worn ones seem to have more life left in the face/grooves than other clubs from that era.  It certainly lengthened their lifespan . 

Forgot about this. Said I had a PT3 with a worn face. Not as bad as I thought especially for 64 years old. Light reflecting makes it look worse than it is. Out in natural light you see more rust in the grooves

 

[ezgoer]

Damn it. Can’t figure out how to chop up a quote. 
Forgot about this. Said I had a PT3 with a worn face. Not as bad as I thought especially for 64 years old. Light reflecting makes it look worse than it is. Out in natural light you see more rust in the grooves

[Wham49]

On 5/27/2023 at 1:21 PM, ezgoer said:

 H&B Louisville Slugger Persimmons and Slugger Levelume Irons. These showed up on my local FB Market place. $40 for a complete matching set with leather grips so took a shot it would be worth the 50 mile round trip to get them. Appears to be an extra ladies 5 wood and an old PING Kushin putter. Leather grips are missing a couple end caps but should condition up nicely. They also have that underlying stick or rod on the back side of the grip that feels kinda nice. For a kinda common brand of this day there’s not a ton of information available so would appreciate any, thank you. Similarity to 60’s Mac Tourney irons is obvious so that time frame seems like a safe guess to me. 

Almost a reverse offset with the face slightly more forward when you’re over them. Get some comparison pic’s tomorrow with another driver. Not a small head though. Do you suppose the Standard on the label indicates shaft flex? Initially felt whippy but I hit em ok and the grips are decent size so regular flex at least maybe??

2-9 irons with the same shaft. Picked this set up this morning on my way into work with enough time to stop and hit some range balls. I won’t be surprised if I’m told they are cast. Not an entirely fair comparison but they felt nothing like the 76 Apex’s I was also hitting. Gotta give em another chance cuz the hitting off range mats after we’ve had 3 plus weeks of prime grass growing weather had me incensed. I just cannot make myself hit down on even the best mats. 

Grip needs some roughing up cuz it’s shiny smooth but doesn’t seem cracked. May replace it if I get inspired. What old set isn’t complete without a Kushin. Purchased this morning and straight to the range and now at work so will get a good cleaning and studying tomorrow. 
 

 These will go right into the vintage playing rotation. Gets me 5 full sets and Im a regrip away from a 6th. 

I have the irons and dont like them, they feel really hard when I hit them, just not for me

[ezgoer]

Not willing to write off the $40 investment just yet BUT was my first impression also. Off of range mats so gotta give em a shot off turf so I can see how much I’m actually hitting down on them. Not a huge divot taker anyways but I really pick em clean off mats.
 

Be a shame cuz I love the leather grips with the small rod/spine down the backside. Not immediately visible but the moment you take a grip you feel it. 
 

Kinda cool store line clubs had that nice of a grip. Suppose someone could have regripped them. 
 

Also upon closer inspection the driver shaft moves just a tiny bit so gonna need epoxy and maybe even a reset of the insert. Nickel and dime risks we take I guess. One of the knowledgable’s on here has offered to walk me through the process. 

Reason 1 million and 1 why this forum is the greatest!!!

Edited May 31, 2023 by ezgoer

[AdamMH]

1 hour ago, ezgoer said:

Not willing to write off the $40 investment just yet BUT was my first impression also. Off of range mats so gotta give em a shot off turf so I can see how much I’m actually hitting down on them. Not a huge divot taker anyways but I really pick em clean off mats.

Well if you don't em... 😉

I had the same perception with Louisville Personal Model irons. Much later than your sticks, they were definitely forged (stamped right into them!) but they didn't really give that impression when swinging. I don't think I took them out on turf before passing them on.

[ezgoer]

We inspire each other inadvertently. There’s plenty other examples but most recently Foozle and Cold_War’s pics in rounds with vintage made me realize my vintage clubs need a proper bag when on the course. I do love my Sun Mountain but this seems better. 

FB Marketplace for $39

Big Burton 10 inch opening tour bag with rain cover and strap. All in great shape and should be incredible after some conditioner. Hopefully will fit on my pushcart.

Purchased these off EBay for another $23.50 total but haven’t shipped yet. No labels and add didn’t say but with the umbrella they gotta be Arnold Palmers right? 

Edited June 4, 2023 by ezgoer