The Sandbagging Madness has to stop...

[2ball]

Who are you ...?

“....You’re one of those....”

 

“”....Just so happens. “

 

Go sit down buddy.

[llewol007]

Hard to do unfortunately. I believe that too much can be fudged on handicaps and that there should actually be a cap on the amount a handicap can influence the net score. I believe the handicap should actually be multiplied by a scoring index or multiplier. Example each course should have a tournament multiplier and that can effectively even out any cheating.. For example a 15 handicap player playing a tournament

 

Course A has a course rating of 100-110 multiplier is then 0.5 x 15 or 7.5 strokes counted towards net score

Course B has a course rating of 120-130 mutilplier is then 0.55 x 15 or 8.25 strokes counted towards net score

Course C has a course rating of 130-140 multiplier is then 0.60 x 15 or 9 stokes counted towards net score.

 

this would be a step in the right direction.

 

 

 

 

[HatsForBats]

Hard to do unfortunately. I believe that too much can be fudged on handicaps and that there should actually be a cap on the amount a handicap can influence the net score. I believe the handicap should actually be multiplied by a scoring index or multiplier. Example each course should have a tournament multiplier and that can effectively even out any cheating.. For example a 15 handicap player playing a tournament

 

Course A has a course rating of 100-110 multiplier is then 0.5 x 15 or 7.5 strokes counted towards net score

Course B has a course rating of 120-130 mutilplier is then 0.55 x 15 or 8.25 strokes counted towards net score

Course C has a course rating of 130-140 multiplier is then 0.60 x 15 or 9 stokes counted towards net score.

 

this would be a step in the right direction.

 

Seems overly drastic but certainly would get rid of those pesky (legit) mid to high cappers having much of a chance to compete. Not sure that is a step in the right direction though.

[SelahVi]

Hard to do unfortunately. I believe that too much can be fudged on handicaps and that there should actually be a cap on the amount a handicap can influence the net score. I believe the handicap should actually be multiplied by a scoring index or multiplier. Example each course should have a tournament multiplier and that can effectively even out any cheating.. For example a 15 handicap player playing a tournament

 

Course A has a course rating of 100-110 multiplier is then 0.5 x 15 or 7.5 strokes counted towards net score

Course B has a course rating of 120-130 mutilplier is then 0.55 x 15 or 8.25 strokes counted towards net score

Course C has a course rating of 130-140 multiplier is then 0.60 x 15 or 9 stokes counted towards net score.

 

this would be a step in the right direction.

 

Seems overly drastic but certainly would get rid of those pesky (legit) mid to high cappers having much of a chance to compete. Not sure that is a step in the right direction though.

 

It also looks suspiciously like what is already being achieved by using "Course Handicap" instead of index.

[rogolf]

Hard to do unfortunately. I believe that too much can be fudged on handicaps and that there should actually be a cap on the amount a handicap can influence the net score. I believe the handicap should actually be multiplied by a scoring index or multiplier. Example each course should have a tournament multiplier and that can effectively even out any cheating.. For example a 15 handicap player playing a tournament

 

Course A has a course rating of 100-110 multiplier is then 0.5 x 15 or 7.5 strokes counted towards net score

Course B has a course rating of 120-130 mutilplier is then 0.55 x 15 or 8.25 strokes counted towards net score

Course C has a course rating of 130-140 multiplier is then 0.60 x 15 or 9 stokes counted towards net score.

 

this would be a step in the right direction.

 

Focus on the sandbaggers, not the honest players. For known sandbaggers, assign them a handicap for your event.

[grew]

I straight up refuse to play in any of the handicap adjusted events at my club anymore.

 

Played in a 4 ball against this team where we were giving them 16 strokes. They were GROSS 2 under after 12. It was a massacre.

 

I went to the director of the club to voice my complaint and was told effectively to pound sand.

 

Its no fun to post up $50-100 for an event only to watch the same 20 or so guys take all the prizes/money and no one does anything about it.

[Matt J]

Lots of scramble and best ball type events already give a % of handicap. Example a 12 and an 8 get 65% of 20 for 13 combined strokes.

 

I think it's largely about the club and the board. If the chair is fair and impartial there is plenty that can be done.

[QEight]

Lots of scramble and best ball type events already give a % of handicap. Example a 12 and an 8 get 65% of 20 for 13 combined strokes.

 

Combined as in sum? Odd.

[Mr. Bean]

Lots of scramble and best ball type events already give a % of handicap. Example a 12 and an 8 get 65% of 20 for 13 combined strokes.

 

Combined as in sum? Odd.

 

Extremely odd, I would say... Then again, it is the same for all so what's the difference?

[ruca]

I straight up refuse to play in any of the handicap adjusted events at my club anymore.

 

Played in a 4 ball against this team where we were giving them 16 strokes. They were GROSS 2 under after 12. It was a massacre.

 

I went to the director of the club to voice my complaint and was told effectively to pound sand.

 

Its no fun to post up $50-100 for an event only to watch the same 20 or so guys take all the prizes/money and no one does anything about it.

Why is the entry fee so large?

Obv you have a different perspective but here the point of these comps is to play a course cheaply (entry inc. meal typically a lot less than standard green fee.

Prizes are minimal and are usually credit in pro shop.

No real incentive to cheat.

 

[DaveLeeNC]

Hard to do unfortunately. I believe that too much can be fudged on handicaps and that there should actually be a cap on the amount a handicap can influence the net score. I believe the handicap should actually be multiplied by a scoring index or multiplier. Example each course should have a tournament multiplier and that can effectively even out any cheating.. For example a 15 handicap player playing a tournament

 

Course A has a course rating of 100-110 multiplier is then 0.5 x 15 or 7.5 strokes counted towards net score

Course B has a course rating of 120-130 mutilplier is then 0.55 x 15 or 8.25 strokes counted towards net score

Course C has a course rating of 130-140 multiplier is then 0.60 x 15 or 9 stokes counted towards net score.

 

this would be a step in the right direction.

 

Focus on the sandbaggers, not the honest players. For known sandbaggers, assign them a handicap for your event.

 

I definitely agree with that. While the suggested approach will make it harder for higher handicap sandbaggers to win, that is primarily because the approach makes it harder to win for all high handicappers (honest or not). That is a very hefty price to pay to partially address the sandbagger issue.

 

dave

[manku]

I don't know a lot of sandbaggers (usually vanity as they don't score by strict rules costing themselves strokes).

 

However, I have played with a lot of straight up cheaters in tournaments and scrambles...not much you can do about that! These people will take mulligans, bump the ball and straight up write down a made up score! Not to mention cheating on long drive/closest to the hole.

 

Why did I not say or do anything you ask? Frequently, I was an invited guest and the member/host was doing the cheating! And these are swanky LA clubs...

 

There is a reason that, in a game that prides itself on honor, the rulebook is the size of a phonebook!

[mshills]

I straight up refuse to play in any of the handicap adjusted events at my club anymore.

 

Played in a 4 ball against this team where we were giving them 16 strokes. They were GROSS 2 under after 12. It was a massacre.

 

I went to the director of the club to voice my complaint and was told effectively to pound sand.

 

Its no fun to post up $50-100 for an event only to watch the same 20 or so guys take all the prizes/money and no one does anything about it.

 

The only effective way I've seen to address this at a club is to have a Handicap Committee with real teeth. The Chair also has to be a member who doesn't take any crap and doesn't mind pissing a few people off. You have to enforce among the membership that if you play, you post your score. No exceptions. Any suspected sandbagger has to have his handicap adjusted / assigned for events, no matter how much whining he does. The more difficult thing to deal with is the member-guest where the guest is the cheat.

 

As a general rule you have to be more Draconian than you think. Treat it as a member stealing from his fellow members -- because that is exactly what sandbagging is.

 

The pro and the general manager have to be on board with this and back the Committee. It's a thankless job.

[Doyouevenblade]

I don't know a lot of sandbaggers (usually vanity as they don't score by strict rules costing themselves strokes).

 

However, I have played with a lot of straight up cheaters in tournaments and scrambles...not much you can do about that! These people will take mulligans, bump the ball and straight up write down a made up score! Not to mention cheating on long drive/closest to the hole.

 

Why did I not say or do anything you ask? Frequently, I was an invited guest and the member/host was doing the cheating! And these are swanky LA clubs...

 

There is a reason that, in a game that prides itself on honor, the rulebook is the size of a phonebook!

 

I play in a men's league where there are no assigned tee times on the Wednesday night, meaning you can play with your regular foursome.... Every week, almost without fail, a player from a particular foursome will win the close to the pin. It is a running joke among the others now.

 

They also managed to get the long drive hole removed because the same 4-5 people always win it. Now there is a long putt, which miraculously their names appear on with regularity.

[bladehunter]

I don't know a lot of sandbaggers (usually vanity as they don't score by strict rules costing themselves strokes).

 

However, I have played with a lot of straight up cheaters in tournaments and scrambles...not much you can do about that! These people will take mulligans, bump the ball and straight up write down a made up score! Not to mention cheating on long drive/closest to the hole.

 

Why did I not say or do anything you ask? Frequently, I was an invited guest and the member/host was doing the cheating! And these are swanky LA clubs...

 

There is a reason that, in a game that prides itself on honor, the rulebook is the size of a phonebook!

 

I play in a men's league where there are no assigned tee times on the Wednesday night, meaning you can play with your regular foursome.... Every week, almost without fail, a player from a particular foursome will win the close to the pin. It is a running joke among the others now.

 

They also managed to get the long drive hole removed because the same 4-5 people always win it. Now there is a long putt, which miraculously their names appear on with regularity.

 

You could show up and watch their round. Clap for then etc like a fan. Bet they don’t win anything.

[DavePelz4]

Not that this will stop the madness but they've posted a new format for this year's event. "Flights are determined by handicap and the top finishers in each flight will be awarded merchandise credit. Championship, A, B, C, and D flights will be scored as **gross** and E flight will be scored as net. That should make things a bit fairer.

[bladehunter]

> @DavePelz4 said:

> Not that this will stop the madness but they've posted a new format for this year's event. "Flights are determined by handicap and the top finishers in each flight will be awarded merchandise credit. Championship, A, B, C, and D flights will be scored as **gross** and E flight will be scored as net. That should make things a bit fairer.

 

Yep. Or at least get the cheaters out of your flight and maybe out in the open. If they win their flight by 13 then maybe people will see the truth ?

[larrybud]

The Golf Association of Michigan has addressed sandbagging and have instituted a further reduction of handicap based on your finish in event the last couple of years. Oddly, one of the well known baggers hasn't been playing in as many net events, which he and his brother used to win on a regular basis. It's fun not seeing net 60s anymore!

[larrybud]

> @manku said:

> However, I have played with a lot of straight up cheaters in tournaments and scrambles...not much you can do about that! These people will take mulligans, bump the ball and straight up write down a made up score! Not to mention cheating on long drive/closest to the hole.

I was invited by a vendor to play in a scramble and he began taking extra shots and pencil whipping the scorecard. I straight up told him I'm not playing in a group that can be called out for cheating, and either I'm keeping score, or I'm driving to the clubhouse. He gave me the scorecard. I hate scrambles and only wanted to play this course. Wasn't invited back the next year but I didn't care.

 

[rogolf]

> @larrybud said:

> > @manku said:

> > However, I have played with a lot of straight up cheaters in tournaments and scrambles...not much you can do about that! **These people will take mulligans, bump the ball and straight up write down a made up score! Not to mention cheating on long drive/closest to the hole.**

> I was invited by a vendor to play in a scramble and he began taking extra shots and pencil whipping the scorecard. I straight up told him I'm not playing in a group that can be called out for cheating, and either I'm keeping score, or I'm driving to the clubhouse. He gave me the scorecard. I hate scrambles and only wanted to play this course. Wasn't invited back the next year but I didn't care.

>

 

I've said before, and will repeat frequently, that the way to stop these scramble shenanigans is to give a sleeve of balls to the winners of the "skill" competitions (low score, closest to pin, long drive) and save the valuable prizes for door prizes where everyone has a chance to win.

[DaveLeeNC]

> @bladehunter said:

> > @DavePelz4 said:

> > Not that this will stop the madness but they've posted a new format for this year's event. "Flights are determined by handicap and the top finishers in each flight will be awarded merchandise credit. Championship, A, B, C, and D flights will be scored as **gross** and E flight will be scored as net. That should make things a bit fairer.

>

> Yep. Or at least get the cheaters out of your flight and maybe out in the open. If they win their flight by 13 then maybe people will see the truth ?

 

Now instead of of sandbaggers getting a handful of strokes that they do not deserve, they get to move back a flight and play against a group of golfers (gross) of a lower skill level. It is kind of 'sandbagging in discrete lumps'.

 

dave

[dubbelbogey]

I've been in quite a number of vendor / customer scrambles (i.e. lots of sales personnel) and it is made quite clear to the vendor host players that "helping the customer" is not only allowed, but frankly, expected. Totally different purpose here.

 

These events are fun, on their own level, but you gotta understand their ultimate purpose.

[DavePelz4]

It's time for the 2019 posting of the Naperville Sandbagging Championship. This year's winner, playing off a 22.3 index and having posted exactly 2 rounds under 95 in 2019 miraculously shot 19 under par for his 2 rounds with gross scores of 89/88 and net scores of 61/62. Congrats to the Champion!

[ThinkingPlus]

> @DavePelz4 said:

> It's time for the 2019 posting of the Naperville Sandbagging Championship. This year's winner, playing off a 22.3 index and having posted exactly 2 rounds under 95 in 2019 miraculously shot 19 under par for his 2 rounds with gross scores of 89/88 and net scores of 61/62. Congrats to the Champion!

 

Pretty highly sloped courses to shoot those numbers.

[DavePelz4]

> @ThinkingPlus said:

> > @DavePelz4 said:

> > It's time for the 2019 posting of the Naperville Sandbagging Championship. This year's winner, playing off a 22.3 index and having posted exactly 2 rounds under 95 in 2019 miraculously shot 19 under par for his 2 rounds with gross scores of 89/88 and net scores of 61/62. Congrats to the Champion!

>

> Pretty highly sloped courses to shoot those numbers.

 

Not really...the tees they played from are rated/sloped at 68.3/122 and 68.8/122.

[ThinkingPlus]

> @DavePelz4 said:

> > @ThinkingPlus said:

> > > @DavePelz4 said:

> > > It's time for the 2019 posting of the Naperville Sandbagging Championship. This year's winner, playing off a 22.3 index and having posted exactly 2 rounds under 95 in 2019 miraculously shot 19 under par for his 2 rounds with gross scores of 89/88 and net scores of 61/62. Congrats to the Champion!

> >

> > Pretty highly sloped courses to shoot those numbers.

>

> Not really...the tees they played from are rated/sloped at 68.3/122 and 68.8/122.

 

Confused then. How does a 22.3 end up with course handicaps of 28 and 26 with such low slope?

[DavePelz4]

> @ThinkingPlus said:

> > @DavePelz4 said:

> > > @ThinkingPlus said:

> > > > @DavePelz4 said:

> > > > It's time for the 2019 posting of the Naperville Sandbagging Championship. This year's winner, playing off a 22.3 index and having posted exactly 2 rounds under 95 in 2019 miraculously shot 19 under par for his 2 rounds with gross scores of 89/88 and net scores of 61/62. Congrats to the Champion!

> > >

> > > Pretty highly sloped courses to shoot those numbers.

> >

> > Not really...the tees they played from are rated/sloped at 68.3/122 and 68.8/122.

>

> Confused then. How does a 22.3 end up with course handicaps of 28 and 26 with such low slope?

 

If my math is correct, he received 24 shots for each round (22.3*(122/113)) = 24. However, that should make his gross scores 85/86 and not the 88/89 as reported.

 

Here's what they show for him which is now making no sense...

NET

First Last Day 1 Day 2 Total

1 Fred Redacted 61 62 123

GROSS

25 Fred 88 89 177

 

Maybe Fred won through bad scorekeeping or Chicago politics?

[ThinkingPlus]

> @DavePelz4 said:

> > @ThinkingPlus said:

> > > @DavePelz4 said:

> > > > @ThinkingPlus said:

> > > > > @DavePelz4 said:

> > > > > It's time for the 2019 posting of the Naperville Sandbagging Championship. This year's winner, playing off a 22.3 index and having posted exactly 2 rounds under 95 in 2019 miraculously shot 19 under par for his 2 rounds with gross scores of 89/88 and net scores of 61/62. Congrats to the Champion!

> > > >

> > > > Pretty highly sloped courses to shoot those numbers.

> > >

> > > Not really...the tees they played from are rated/sloped at 68.3/122 and 68.8/122.

> >

> > Confused then. How does a 22.3 end up with course handicaps of 28 and 26 with such low slope?

>

> If my math is correct, he received 24 shots for each round (22.3*(122/113)) = 24. However, that should make his gross scores 85/86 and not the 88/89 as reported.

>

> Here's what they show for him which is now making no sense...

> NET

> First Last Day 1 Day 2 Total

> 1 Fred Redacted 61 62 123

> GROSS

> 25 Fred 88 89 177

>

> Maybe Fred won through bad scorekeeping or Chicago politics?

 

Well, it is Chicago so...

[Shipwreck]

> @ThinkingPlus said:

> > @DavePelz4 said:

> > > @ThinkingPlus said:

> > > > @DavePelz4 said:

> > > > > @ThinkingPlus said:

> > > > > > @DavePelz4 said:

> > > > > > It's time for the 2019 posting of the Naperville Sandbagging Championship. This year's winner, playing off a 22.3 index and having posted exactly 2 rounds under 95 in 2019 miraculously shot 19 under par for his 2 rounds with gross scores of 89/88 and net scores of 61/62. Congrats to the Champion!

> > > > >

> > > > > Pretty highly sloped courses to shoot those numbers.

> > > >

> > > > Not really...the tees they played from are rated/sloped at 68.3/122 and 68.8/122.

> > >

> > > Confused then. How does a 22.3 end up with course handicaps of 28 and 26 with such low slope?

> >

> > If my math is correct, he received 24 shots for each round (22.3*(122/113)) = 24. However, that should make his gross scores 85/86 and not the 88/89 as reported.

> >

> > Here's what they show for him which is now making no sense...

> > NET

> > First Last Day 1 Day 2 Total

> > 1 Fred Redacted 61 62 123

> > GROSS

> > 25 Fred 88 89 177

> >

> > Maybe Fred won through bad scorekeeping or Chicago politics?

>

> Well, it is Chicago so...

 

 

[llewol007]

I believe that sandbagging will occur only if the individual is allowed to get away with. Really I believe that tournament scores should reflect highly on your handicap for the tournaments you enter. So if that individual enters a score of 75/73 and proceeds to enter a following tournament expecting to be given +14 as his handicap, his handicap will then be reduced by half automatically. If he proceeds to score another tournament score of 75/73, then his handicap should automatically be given a half value again.