Could a 12 handicapper....

gigemaggs99 · March 31, 2015

Like others have said and posted already it seems to come down to your misses.

I'd say go for the blades if you want but keep the cavity as a backup.

I made it down to an 8.9 last year and thought, I'm ready for blades, I think it's a mental/status thing...I really wanted to use them and thought I was good enough for them. I went full bore and bought a used set of MP33. When my swing was on, they felt amazing! I also have Game Golf so I can track each club. I was playing mainly at 1 course only so I could really compare and track my stats. Again, when my swing was on it was really cool how a 9-iron would go X distance every single time it was a guarantee and that was very nice, very good for the mental game knowing I was pulling the right club and I could hit a distance. As with any club it all came down to short game and putting. Good iron striking days along with good short game and putting days I'd shoot in the low 80s, high 70s.

The BAD SIDE, when the swing was off, the scores were horrendous. That sweet 9-iron would go from a consistent 130 to 90. If I didn't hit it on the sweet spot I would really be punished. Now if my short game and putting was on, I wouldn't pay too dearly but if those (putting and short game) weren't with me that day the scores would jump into the high 80s and low 90s really fast!

I'm not to much about working the ball, I'm not a professional golfer, I have a real job, golf is my hobby. I can draw and fade the ball but I cannot do it with enough control for me to fade an 8-iron into a right pin location or a high draw into a back left pin location. It will work the direction I want but the exact stopping control is not there, I'm sure that would come with a lot of practice and many hours on the range, again, golf is my hobby.

I can cut a shot around a tree or bend one around a corner if need be, but it's more of a "it will curve left-to-right or vice-versa kinda of "control". I use it more as a get out of trouble shot or a fun shot when I just messing around. For the most part I'd rather hit a straight shot. My natural shot would be a slight fade, but I do from time to time hit a slight draw, again, I'd rather just hit it "relatively straight". So I'm not sure why one really WANTS to "work the ball".

The other thing I've noticed, with so called game improvement irons when I do miss hit the club I am not punished as much on distance. I think it's a matter of perspective. I've read that some "game improvement" cavity irons give you those strange shots from time to time that the ball just seems to go farther. I wonder if those people are actually hitting it on the sweet spot those "rare" times. For me I've been playing with either Titleist 962 or Ping i3 O-size, I get very consistent distance control with each, but the good thing is the mishits don't punish me as much, the distance will still be there, it's more the left to right accuracy that will be lacking.

Others will say, you need to be good to play blades, well if that's the case why don't all PGA pros use them? Some do some don't. You don't HAVE to play blades, if you want to that's cool.

So I think for me, the answer to can a 12 handicapper play blades?, yes you can. You have to decide what kind of golfer you want to be. Do you have time to practice a lot? Do you a consistent swing? Do you have a good short game that will make up for your misses? You will have some, pros have them, they also have AWESOME short games. Limit your misses.

Personally, I have more fun with non-blades. I enjoy golf but I don't want to get so frustrated with miss hits from blades that it makes the game not fun. I figure I can hit pure shots with my non-blade irons and I can also have a few miss hits a round and still shot decent scores (for me the main thing comes down to chipping and PUTTING, when I have less than 30 putts I score well). With blades I was really punished on miss hits.

For what it's worth, I shot my lowest score of my golfing life last year, a +1 73 on a par 72. I was using Ping Eye 2 Irons (cavity backs) and a Titleist DT solo ball, nothing special by any means. So in my opinion low (73 is low for me) scores can be shot with other clubs than pure blades. In the end, golf is a game to me, I want to enjoy the game.

Good luck and hit 'em straight!

Nine Miler · March 31, 2015

Here is one more.... Have you ever pured a shot that went 50 yards right OB?.... Hell Yeah.... I had got that damn thing so sweet... probably the best shot of my life... but it went OB.......

No, never pured a shot 50 yards off line.

Also, never heard of a dogleg par 3, but what do I know? :P

Really???? Never had one of those damn I got that thing square but the face was close 3 degrees and went screaming left? No one is that perfect?

Also sorry didnt know how to describe the hole. I wish I had a picture... its pretty tough

Here imagine this hole, elevated about 40 ft tee box and green only... water is all on the right side and pin is usually on the right

the depth is seriously like this only 20ft deep, so you need to hit high and stick... but hitting high and ballooning the shot is very probable....

Here is the actual hole

That water doesn't look like it's in play...

Exactice808 · March 31, 2015

Here is one more.... Have you ever pured a shot that went 50 yards right OB?.... Hell Yeah.... I had got that damn thing so sweet... probably the best shot of my life... but it went OB.......

No, never pured a shot 50 yards off line.

Also, never heard of a dogleg par 3, but what do I know? :P

Really???? Never had one of those damn I got that thing square but the face was close 3 degrees and went screaming left? No one is that perfect?

Also sorry didnt know how to describe the hole. I wish I had a picture... its pretty tough

Here imagine this hole, elevated about 40 ft tee box and green only... water is all on the right side and pin is usually on the right

the depth is seriously like this only 20ft deep, so you need to hit high and stick... but hitting high and ballooning the shot is very probable....

Here is the actual hole

That water doesn't look like it's in play...

Elevated Green.... hit the front its rolling all the way down to the water....... if you hit a draw, you gotta go over it.... if you over cut....its rolling off the green.... water is very much in play like a said its tough to see from a birds eye =(

govols · March 31, 2015

[quote name='DeNinny' timestamp='1427839268' post='11256025'][quote name='govols' timestamp='1427838540' post='11255945']

Not mocking you but you are making my point. There's a point where what you play isn't gonna make a difference. I don't play blades (J40 DPC) because I don't pure every iron and I want my slightly off center misses to still produce a decent shot. There's no benefit to playing blades unless you hit pretty much every shot dead center of the face. On the flip side depending on skill level there may not be much adverse affect either.
[/quote]
So there's no detriment and no benefit in your view. By that logic a 12 index can play blades. Why not if it won't adversely affect his score?[/quote]

The only benefit would be if you strike every shot dead solid. If you don't there's no benefit. Is that hard to comprehend? I honestly think that's pretty clear cut.

On the flip-side you can be bad enough where it makes absolutely no difference. If you thin, chunk, barely make contact on the face and rarely hit the sweet spot then the club makes no difference.

I guess perhaps you can be a little off center and get it around with a fair score but there's no way I believe those misses are gonna result in a better shot than what a cavity back would give.

Exactice808 · March 31, 2015

[quote name='govols' timestamp='1427840722' post='11256191']
[quote name='DeNinny' timestamp='1427839268' post='11256025'][quote name='govols' timestamp='1427838540' post='11255945']
Not mocking you but you are making my point. There's a point where what you play isn't gonna make a difference. I don't play blades (J40 DPC) because I don't pure every iron and I want my slightly off center misses to still produce a decent shot. There's no benefit to playing blades unless you hit pretty much every shot dead center of the face. On the flip side depending on skill level there may not be much adverse affect either.
[/quote]
So there's no detriment and no benefit in your view. By that logic a 12 index can play blades. Why not if it won't adversely affect his score?[/quote]

The only benefit would be if you strike every shot dead solid. If you don't there's no benefit. Is that hard to comprehend? I honestly think that's pretty clear cut.

On the flip-side you can be bad enough where it makes absolutely no difference. If you thin, chunk, barely make contact on the face and rarely hit the sweet spot then the club makes no difference.

I guess perhaps you can be a little off center and get it around with a fair score but there's no way I believe those misses are gonna result in a better shot than what a cavity back would give.
[/quote]

I am going to try and not derail it but to educate from my perspective and my own experiences.

For me the Blade misses are actually better than the GI misses.....

Again... for my game I am 2/10 Pure strikes... 9/10 Acceptable strikes.

Lets use an easy straight forward par3

150 Yards,

I hit a 7 Iron Blade lands on green we are good

I hit a 7 iron GI same....

I thin a 7 Iron Blade it lands short but straight still straight forward.

I thin a 7 iron GI, that thing is hot and could roll off.

I Toe a 7iron Blade, still short, but generally straight might be leaking but short and playable

I Toe a 7iron GI, and that thing can be a hot screamer left, those I have stated before are those hot fliers I get out of the GI's..... cant explain it but it happens that thing goes 160+ low and fast.

etc etc etc.... while they are still good strikes the are not quite pure... but the results get masked or Enhanced

the misses on a blade while minute COULD be a better miss than a masked GI that forgives mistakes but could put you in a worse predicament.

govols · March 31, 2015

[quote name='Exactice808' timestamp='1427841406' post='11256289'][quote name='govols' timestamp='1427840722' post='11256191']
[quote name='DeNinny' timestamp='1427839268' post='11256025'][quote name='govols' timestamp='1427838540' post='11255945']
Not mocking you but you are making my point. There's a point where what you play isn't gonna make a difference. I don't play blades (J40 DPC) because I don't pure every iron and I want my slightly off center misses to still produce a decent shot. There's no benefit to playing blades unless you hit pretty much every shot dead center of the face. On the flip side depending on skill level there may not be much adverse affect either.
[/quote]
So there's no detriment and no benefit in your view. By that logic a 12 index can play blades. Why not if it won't adversely affect his score?[/quote]

The only benefit would be if you strike every shot dead solid. If you don't there's no benefit. Is that hard to comprehend? I honestly think that's pretty clear cut.

On the flip-side you can be bad enough where it makes absolutely no difference. If you thin, chunk, barely make contact on the face and rarely hit the sweet spot then the club makes no difference.

I guess perhaps you can be a little off center and get it around with a fair score but there's no way I believe those misses are gonna result in a better shot than what a cavity back would give.
[/quote]

I am going to try and not derail it but to educate from my perspective and my own experiences.

For me the Blade misses are actually better than the GI misses.....

Again... for my game I am 2/10 Pure strikes... 9/10 Acceptable strikes.

Lets use an easy straight forward par3

150 Yards,

I hit a 7 Iron Blade lands on green we are good

I hit a 7 iron GI same....

I thin a 7 Iron Blade it lands short but straight still straight forward.

I thin a 7 iron GI, that thing is hot and could roll off.

I Toe a 7iron Blade, still short, but generally straight might be leaking but short and playable

I Toe a 7iron GI, and that thing can be a hot screamer left, those I have stated before are those hot fliers I get out of the GI's..... cant explain it but it happens that thing goes 160+ low and fast.

etc etc etc.... while they are still good strikes the are not quite pure... but the results get masked or Enhanced

the misses on a blade while minute COULD be a better miss than a masked GI that forgives mistakes but could put you in a worse predicament.[/quote]

If you say so

DeNinny · March 31, 2015

[quote name='govols' timestamp='1427840722' post='11256191']
[quote name='DeNinny' timestamp='1427839268' post='11256025'][quote name='govols' timestamp='1427838540' post='11255945']

Not mocking you but you are making my point. There's a point where what you play isn't gonna make a difference. I don't play blades (J40 DPC) because I don't pure every iron and I want my slightly off center misses to still produce a decent shot. There's no benefit to playing blades unless you hit pretty much every shot dead center of the face. On the flip side depending on skill level there may not be much adverse affect either.
[/quote]
So there's no detriment and no benefit in your view. By that logic a 12 index can play blades. Why not if it won't adversely affect his score?[/quote]

The only benefit would be if you strike every shot dead solid. If you don't there's no benefit. Is that hard to comprehend? I honestly think that's pretty clear cut.

On the flip-side you can be bad enough where it makes absolutely no difference. If you thin, chunk, barely make contact on the face and rarely hit the sweet spot then the club makes no difference.

I guess perhaps you can be a little off center and get it around with a fair score but there's no way I believe those misses are gonna result in a better shot than what a cavity back would give.
[/quote]
So who is arguing that a shot is better or worse when the point is that it won't hurt your score.

If your score is not affected then you can use whatever club. I hope you can comprehend this was my point (and yours!)

govols · March 31, 2015

[quote name='DeNinny' timestamp='1427841983' post='11256371'][quote name='govols' timestamp='1427840722' post='11256191']
[quote name='DeNinny' timestamp='1427839268' post='11256025'][quote name='govols' timestamp='1427838540' post='11255945']

Not mocking you but you are making my point. There's a point where what you play isn't gonna make a difference. I don't play blades (J40 DPC) because I don't pure every iron and I want my slightly off center misses to still produce a decent shot. There's no benefit to playing blades unless you hit pretty much every shot dead center of the face. On the flip side depending on skill level there may not be much adverse affect either.
[/quote]
So there's no detriment and no benefit in your view. By that logic a 12 index can play blades. Why not if it won't adversely affect his score?[/quote]

The only benefit would be if you strike every shot dead solid. If you don't there's no benefit. Is that hard to comprehend? I honestly think that's pretty clear cut.

On the flip-side you can be bad enough where it makes absolutely no difference. If you thin, chunk, barely make contact on the face and rarely hit the sweet spot then the club makes no difference.

I guess perhaps you can be a little off center and get it around with a fair score but there's no way I believe those misses are gonna result in a better shot than what a cavity back would give.
[/quote]
So who is arguing that a shot is better or worse when the point is that it won't hurt your score.

If your score is not affected then you can use whatever club. I hope you can comprehend this was my point (and yours!)[/quote]

Yea I pointed that out and the circumstances that go with it.

DeNinny · March 31, 2015

[quote name='Nessism' timestamp='1427839221' post='11256021']
[quote name='DeNinny' timestamp='1427836663' post='11255727']
[quote name='Nessism' timestamp='1427836171' post='11255667']
[quote name='DeNinny' timestamp='1427828100' post='11254505']
Nessism hasn't realized yet that the mp60 and 67 were designed for different skill levels by including that cavity. He says that cavity isn't a physical difference. In my experience that cavity makes it harder for me to work the ball and it dampens the feel and feedback as compared to my mp67s. I can attest this with personal experience but yet Nessism likes to argue with paper numbers with respect to these two clubs.
[/quote]

The cavity on the 60 is basically just a styling exercise. The MOI is lower than your blades therefore it's not a functional aspect of the design. A properly designed cavity back will have significant material removed from behind the face and moved to the periphery, thus increasing MOI. Any discussion of experience with CB's based on the MP60 is useless. If you can't understand this, I'm sorry.
[/quote]
I understand everything you just said. I'm sorry if you haven't realized yet that MOI is a meaningless gauge of forgiveness. Please share some relevant scoring data vs clubhead MOI and I'm sorry if you don't realize that this is how you will make a relevant point about MOI. All you are doing is proving you can't prove anything to support the OP first post with your own "data" and your paper numbers.
[/quote]

Only an idiot would attempt to draw a direct relationship between scoring and MOI on a set of irons. And only an idiot would dismiss the fact that high MOI irons will improve shot performance when you don't hit the center of the face. You decide which side of the fence you live.
[/quote]
Only an idiot argues that a club is beneficial when there is no data to prove the club helped you score better. In my business (chemical engineering), anybody that spews what they think is fact but cannot provide any data is a complete idiot.

Oh and only somebody ignorant of the laws of physics and the pure definition of MOI would buy into the golf industry definition of it. As soon as you attach a shaft to the clubhead, it will render the golf industry definition of it meaningless because the golf industry calculates it by assuming the head will rotate about its center of gravity. That will NEVER happen in the real world. The head will always rotate around the shaft, so again this makes clubhead MOI meaningless. Sorry but that is the laws of physics. You have to calculate MOI around the true axis of rotation. This is defined through Newtons laws of motion for rotational systems.

knock it close · March 31, 2015

195 over water I'd rather be hitting my ap2 5 iron than an mb.

T.Beau · March 31, 2015

[quote name='knock it close' timestamp='1427843321' post='11256517']
195 over water I'd rather be hitting my ap2 5 iron than an mb into the water.
[/quote]

i've corrected your post for you...hope you dont mind

govols · March 31, 2015

[quote name='DeNinny' timestamp='1427842740' post='11256443'][quote name='Nessism' timestamp='1427839221' post='11256021']
[quote name='DeNinny' timestamp='1427836663' post='11255727']
[quote name='Nessism' timestamp='1427836171' post='11255667']
[quote name='DeNinny' timestamp='1427828100' post='11254505']
Nessism hasn't realized yet that the mp60 and 67 were designed for different skill levels by including that cavity. He says that cavity isn't a physical difference. In my experience that cavity makes it harder for me to work the ball and it dampens the feel and feedback as compared to my mp67s. I can attest this with personal experience but yet Nessism likes to argue with paper numbers with respect to these two clubs.
[/quote]

The cavity on the 60 is basically just a styling exercise. The MOI is lower than your blades therefore it's not a functional aspect of the design. A properly designed cavity back will have significant material removed from behind the face and moved to the periphery, thus increasing MOI. Any discussion of experience with CB's based on the MP60 is useless. If you can't understand this, I'm sorry.
[/quote]
I understand everything you just said. I'm sorry if you haven't realized yet that MOI is a meaningless gauge of forgiveness. Please share some relevant scoring data vs clubhead MOI and I'm sorry if you don't realize that this is how you will make a relevant point about MOI. All you are doing is proving you can't prove anything to support the OP first post with your own "data" and your paper numbers.
[/quote]

Only an idiot would attempt to draw a direct relationship between scoring and MOI on a set of irons. And only an idiot would dismiss the fact that high MOI irons will improve shot performance when you don't hit the center of the face. You decide which side of the fence you live.
[/quote]
Only an idiot argues that a club is beneficial when there is no data to prove the club helped you score better. In my business (chemical engineering), anybody that spews what they think is fact but cannot provide any data is a complete idiot.

Oh and only somebody ignorant of the laws of physics and the pure definition of MOI would buy into the golf industry definition of it. As soon as you attach a shaft to the clubhead, it will render the golf industry definition of it meaningless because the golf industry calculates it by assuming the head will rotate about its center of gravity. That will NEVER happen in the real world. The head will always rotate around the shaft, so again this makes clubhead MOI meaningless. Sorry but that is the laws of physics. You have to calculate MOI around the true axis of rotation. This is defined through Newtons laws of motion for rotational systems.[/quote]

So a 1/4" toe shot with a blade 4 iron with same loft and shaft as a cavity back 4 iron would render the same result?

Nessism · March 31, 2015

[quote name='DeNinny' timestamp='1427842740' post='11256443']
Only an idiot argues that a club is beneficial when there is no data to prove the club helped you score better. In my business (chemical engineering), anybody that spews what they think is fact but cannot provide any data is a complete idiot.

Oh and only somebody ignorant of the laws of physics and the pure definition of MOI would buy into the golf industry definition of it. As soon as you attach a shaft to the clubhead, it will render the golf industry definition of it meaningless because the golf industry calculates it by assuming the head will rotate about its center of gravity. That will NEVER happen in the real world. The head will always rotate around the shaft, so again this makes clubhead MOI meaningless. Sorry but that is the laws of physics. You have to calculate MOI around the true axis of rotation. This is defined through Newtons laws of motion for rotational systems.
[/quote]

A high MOI club will improve shot performance off the center of the face. The ball will wind up closer to the hole vs. a low MOI club like a blade. This is scientific fact. It's dumb to expect "data to prove the club helped you score better". Hitting the ball closer to the hole apparently isn't good enough for you, you expect data to prove the person made the putt.

"Ignorant of the laws of physics"? Are you joking? Just because someone published data about golf club head MOI? Simple fact is MOI measurement is a good comparative measure between club heads. Is there a direct relationship between MOI and forgiveness? Of course not. It's good data though. Smart people learn how to interpret it.

BenHoganSlam1953 · March 31, 2015

[quote name='Nessism' timestamp='1427839221' post='11256021']
[quote name='DeNinny' timestamp='1427836663' post='11255727']
[quote name='Nessism' timestamp='1427836171' post='11255667']
[quote name='DeNinny' timestamp='1427828100' post='11254505']
Nessism hasn't realized yet that the mp60 and 67 were designed for different skill levels by including that cavity. He says that cavity isn't a physical difference. In my experience that cavity makes it harder for me to work the ball and it dampens the feel and feedback as compared to my mp67s. I can attest this with personal experience but yet Nessism likes to argue with paper numbers with respect to these two clubs.
[/quote]

The cavity on the 60 is basically just a styling exercise. The MOI is lower than your blades therefore it's not a functional aspect of the design. A properly designed cavity back will have significant material removed from behind the face and moved to the periphery, thus increasing MOI. Any discussion of experience with CB's based on the MP60 is useless. If you can't understand this, I'm sorry.
[/quote]
I understand everything you just said. I'm sorry if you haven't realized yet that MOI is a meaningless gauge of forgiveness. Please share some relevant scoring data vs clubhead MOI and I'm sorry if you don't realize that this is how you will make a relevant point about MOI. All you are doing is proving you can't prove anything to support the OP first post with your own "data" and your paper numbers.
[/quote]

Only an idiot would attempt to draw a direct relationship between scoring and MOI on a set of irons. And only an idiot would dismiss the fact that high MOI irons will improve shot performance when you don't hit the center of the face. You decide which side of the fence you live.
[/quote]

I'm interjecting here with a related question. I just read Frank Thomas' and Tom Wishon's articles on MOI. I understand that MOI primarily to help with toe hits or golfers who tend to hit near the toe. That has been my issue with CB manufactured clubs in that OEM's have now moved quite a bit of mass from the main part of the head and redistributed it around the edges, especially the toe. They are now working against me as I tend to hit close to the heel of my clubs. I find I am fighting the toe of the club closing too fast during my swing now with my 53s 3i to 7i that have quite a bit of mass after the mid-point of the iron head, as well as some woods. Compare that to my Apex FTXs that have more mass before the mid-point of the iron head, but still have quite a bit of perimeter weighting, which I do not fight closing.

Am I missing anything? Would that also explain why I prefer the feel of swing weight matched clubs to MOI matched? Of course, I could just be strange too...
Also, would really appreciate it if you happen to know of any irons with perimeter weighting that have more overall mass towards the heel rather than the toe. Used is perfectly fine.

Thank you

govols · March 31, 2015

[quote name='BenHoganSlam1953' timestamp='1427845036' post='11256669'][quote name='Nessism' timestamp='1427839221' post='11256021']
[quote name='DeNinny' timestamp='1427836663' post='11255727']
[quote name='Nessism' timestamp='1427836171' post='11255667']
[quote name='DeNinny' timestamp='1427828100' post='11254505']
Nessism hasn't realized yet that the mp60 and 67 were designed for different skill levels by including that cavity. He says that cavity isn't a physical difference. In my experience that cavity makes it harder for me to work the ball and it dampens the feel and feedback as compared to my mp67s. I can attest this with personal experience but yet Nessism likes to argue with paper numbers with respect to these two clubs.
[/quote]

The cavity on the 60 is basically just a styling exercise. The MOI is lower than your blades therefore it's not a functional aspect of the design. A properly designed cavity back will have significant material removed from behind the face and moved to the periphery, thus increasing MOI. Any discussion of experience with CB's based on the MP60 is useless. If you can't understand this, I'm sorry.
[/quote]
I understand everything you just said. I'm sorry if you haven't realized yet that MOI is a meaningless gauge of forgiveness. Please share some relevant scoring data vs clubhead MOI and I'm sorry if you don't realize that this is how you will make a relevant point about MOI. All you are doing is proving you can't prove anything to support the OP first post with your own "data" and your paper numbers.
[/quote]

Only an idiot would attempt to draw a direct relationship between scoring and MOI on a set of irons. And only an idiot would dismiss the fact that high MOI irons will improve shot performance when you don't hit the center of the face. You decide which side of the fence you live.
[/quote]

I'm interjecting here with a related question. I just read Frank Thomas' and Tom Wishon's articles on MOI. I understand that MOI primarily to help with toe hits or golfers who tend to hit near the toe. That has been my issue with CB manufactured clubs in that OEM's have now moved quite a bit of mass from the main part of the head and redistributed it around the edges, especially the toe. They are now working against me as I tend to hit close to the heel of my clubs. I find I am fighting the toe of the club closing too fast during my swing now with my 53s 3i to 7i that have quite a bit of mass after the mid-point of the iron head, as well as some woods. Compare that to my Apex FTXs that have more mass before the mid-point of the iron head, but still have quite a bit of perimeter weighting, which I do not fight closing.

Am I missing anything? Would that also explain why I prefer the feel of swing weight matched clubs to MOI matched? Of course, I could just be strange too...
Also, would really appreciate it if you happen to know of any irons with perimeter weighting that have more overall mass towards the heel rather than the toe. Used is perfectly fine.

Thank you[/quote]

If more weight is toward the toe it's not closing faster.

DeNinny · March 31, 2015

[quote name='Nessism' timestamp='1427843904' post='11256565']
[quote name='DeNinny' timestamp='1427842740' post='11256443']
Only an idiot argues that a club is beneficial when there is no data to prove the club helped you score better. In my business (chemical engineering), anybody that spews what they think is fact but cannot provide any data is a complete idiot.

Oh and only somebody ignorant of the laws of physics and the pure definition of MOI would buy into the golf industry definition of it. As soon as you attach a shaft to the clubhead, it will render the golf industry definition of it meaningless because the golf industry calculates it by assuming the head will rotate about its center of gravity. That will NEVER happen in the real world. The head will always rotate around the shaft, so again this makes clubhead MOI meaningless. Sorry but that is the laws of physics. You have to calculate MOI around the true axis of rotation. This is defined through Newtons laws of motion for rotational systems.
[/quote]

A high MOI club will improve shot performance off the center of the face. The ball will wind up closer to the hole vs. a low MOI club like a blade. This is scientific fact. It's dumb to expect "data to prove the club helped you score better". Hitting the ball closer to the hole apparently isn't good enough for you, you expect data to prove the person made the putt.

"Ignorant of the laws of physics"? Are you joking? Just because someone published data about golf club head MOI? Simple fact is MOI measurement is a good comparative measure between club heads. Is there a direct relationship between MOI and forgiveness? Of course not. It's good data though. Smart people learn how to interpret it.
[/quote]
My high MOI MP-FliHis were not shot improving whatsoever. I was further away from the hole using those clubs. Once again you spew scientific fact about MOI getting you closer to the hole and you have zero data to back it.

Oh and let's consider proximity to the hole when you are trying to work the ball and not just the straight shot. High MOI will have zero impact on that. A CB may get you further from the hole or target when you are trying to work it. My MP67s are just slightly better for working the ball.

LOL you claim clubs are so helpful for scoring yet you call it dumb to expect there to be proof of this. So you play your clubs based on MOI. I choose final score for selecting mine. So we are different.

Yes I know how to properly interpret a number that is meaningless in terms of score. Which is what MOI is (by your own admission). Smart people know that good data would mean you would score better.

Simple fact is that you just stated MOI is an important number and "good data" but also admit that you can't correlate it to score.

Simple fact is that you have done nothing to prove a 12 cap will play worse with a blade.

Nessism · March 31, 2015

[quote name='DeNinny' timestamp='1427845801' post='11256771']
Simple fact is that you have done nothing to prove a 12 cap will play worse with a blade.
[/quote]

This sums up the discussion in it's entirety. Any reasonable person would realize that GI clubs can help a person improve their misses but you dismiss it. I've got nothing more to say to you.

Exactice808 · March 31, 2015

[quote name='knock it close' timestamp='1427843321' post='11256517']
195 over water I'd rather be hitting my ap2 5 iron than an mb.
[/quote]
[quote name='T.Beau' timestamp='1427843505' post='11256537']
[quote name='knock it close' timestamp='1427843321' post='11256517']
195 over water I'd rather be hitting my ap2 5 iron than an mb into the water.
[/quote]

i've corrected your post for you...hope you dont mind
[/quote]

While I graciously agree...... and T.Beau that was funny as hell LOL!

I know I can hit a cut, I have been practicing moving the ball around.

I have 2 choices,

a 4 iron GI that doesnt move as much but goes high and long and straight

or

a 4 iron MB that goes lower, and I can move it around.....

What is the percentage shot specifically for this hole?

Aim left and play the cut? Take water out of play?

Or Aim straight and make sure you carry?

again its just options in your mind you choose to take...in my mind the cut is a safer shot then trying to challenge the water to a tight pin.......

Exactice808 · March 31, 2015

[quote name='govols' timestamp='1427841710' post='11256331']
If you say so
[/quote]
[quote name='Nessism' timestamp='1427846554' post='11256855']
This sums up the discussion in it's entirety. Any reasonable person would realize that GI clubs can help a person improve their misses but you dismiss it. I've got nothing more to say to you.
[/quote]

Nessim..... Sorry not picking anything.... but.....

I just explained in detail what has happned with MY game, to explain. I think I am pretty reasonable and I put legit basic info to many threads....

Govels responded only with "If you say so" no rebuttal to TRUE on course fact......

Nessim it would be ignorant (lack of a better term) to ignore the facts that myself and DeNinny from on course experience is to deny? How can you deny what we are actually doing? You are stating DATA facts.......

SO agree to disagree but understand that FOR SOME PEOPLE NOT ALL, blades will help on misses and actually be better for a percentage of golfers? How much I have no Idea, who on Golf WRX I dont know either but I would be safe to assume that DeNInny and I are not the ONLY ones......

Nine Miler · March 31, 2015

Is it possible that you guys are misinterpreting your own experience? I wouldn't put it past you.

Exactice808 · March 31, 2015

[quote name='Nine Miler' timestamp='1427847011' post='11256915']
Is it possible that you guys are misinterpreting your own experience? I wouldn't put it past you.
[/quote]

Its a possibility.... but my concern is the naysayers that are saying NO from Data versus extensive on course play......as they HAVE never actually gone out and played both sets un bias.....

I have been playing with these 2 clubs alternating for almost 2 years now. My overall handicap has dropped and I have posted it up in another thread.

It has come from learning, practicing and adding more tools to the tool box. It hasnt been because of a specific set of irons per say. But the irons have helped based on course condition and situation. I actually do take out X set for certain course as I know it will help.

I have also played with both sets at the same course ( this is hawaii there are only so many course) And I have hit both irons and got 2 totally different results. Yes its impossible to prove back to back shots , but generally under basically the same circumstance from my experience.... I have come up with my own understanding of the clubs

knock it close · March 31, 2015

[quote name='Exactice808' timestamp='1427846559' post='11256857']
[quote name='knock it close' timestamp='1427843321' post='11256517']
195 over water I'd rather be hitting my ap2 5 iron than an mb.
[/quote]
[quote name='T.Beau' timestamp='1427843505' post='11256537']
[quote name='knock it close' timestamp='1427843321' post='11256517']
195 over water I'd rather be hitting my ap2 5 iron than an mb into the water.
[/quote]

i've corrected your post for you...hope you dont mind
[/quote]

While I graciously agree...... and T.Beau that was funny as hell LOL!

I know I can hit a cut, I have been practicing moving the ball around.

I have 2 choices,

a 4 iron GI that doesnt move as much but goes high and long and straight

or

a 4 iron MB that goes lower, and I can move it around.....

What is the percentage shot specifically for this hole?

Aim left and play the cut? Take water out of play?

Or Aim straight and make sure you carry?

again its just options in your mind you choose to take...in my mind the cut is a safer shot then trying to challenge the water to a tight pin.......
[/quote]So in this scenario where's the water? Short right? short left?

Exactice808 · March 31, 2015

Really???? Never had one of those damn I got that thing square but the face was close 3 degrees and went screaming left? No one is that perfect?

Also sorry didnt know how to describe the hole. I wish I had a picture... its pretty tough

Here imagine this hole, elevated about 40 ft tee box and green only... water is all on the right side and pin is usually on the right

the depth is seriously like this only 20ft deep, so you need to hit high and stick... but hitting high and ballooning the shot is very probable....

Here is the actual hole, looks easy birds eye, but again teebox and Green i elevated, you dont hit the green its rolling down the hill both ways....its a B!TCH

o in this scenario where's the water? Short right? short left?

Yups I posted the picture of the hole with a rough explanation

knock it close · March 31, 2015

Really???? Never had one of those damn I got that thing square but the face was close 3 degrees and went screaming left? No one is that perfect?

Also sorry didnt know how to describe the hole. I wish I had a picture... its pretty tough

Here imagine this hole, elevated about 40 ft tee box and green only... water is all on the right side and pin is usually on the right

the depth is seriously like this only 20ft deep, so you need to hit high and stick... but hitting high and ballooning the shot is very probable....

Here is the actual hole, looks easy birds eye, but again teebox and Green i elevated, you dont hit the green its rolling down the hill both ways....its a B!TCH
o in this scenario where's the water? Short right? short left?

Yups I posted the picture of the hole with a rough explanation

Gotcha, I'd play something high to that middle left portion then if the pins on the right I'd try to let my natural draw (I'm a lefty) get it back there if not I'm safely on the green.

Holes with that shape of a green play easier for lefties imo. If you pull it our hit a draw you should be able to carry to the back portion. If you leave it out left it won't carry quite as far and should come in softer so you should land safely on the green.

Basically why Phil plays 2 at augusta fairly well and struggles more on 16

govols · March 31, 2015

[quote name='Nine Miler' timestamp='1427847011' post='11256915']Is it possible that you guys are misinterpreting your own experience? I wouldn't put it past you. [/quote]

They want to play blades so bad that they will twist logic and reasoning to try and justify why they do. In the end they're free to play whatever they wanna buy.

BMC · March 31, 2015

One long time players experience with clubs -

I started as a 30 capper like everyone else. What got me from a 12 to a current 5.7?

...being satisfied with a drive 240-250 in the fairway

...hitting approach shots and into par 3s on the green or around it in the right spot

...having an excellent short game (I work at it)

...being a good putter

The irons I use for approach shots and into par 3s MAKES ZERO DIFFERENCE.

Play irons that look good to you and instills confidence. It doesn't matter what they are.

Driving club, wedges, and putter are far more important than your iron set.

DeNinny · March 31, 2015

[quote name='Nine Miler' timestamp='1427847011' post='11256915']
Is it possible that you guys are misinterpreting your own experience? I wouldn't put it past you.
[/quote]
Is it possible you are? I've had 8 years using the same two clubs. I'm pretty confident with mine. If you ask that question you need to consider the same for yourself.

BTW nice avatar change and thank you for not mocking those you may disagree with.

govols · March 31, 2015

[quote name='BMC' timestamp='1427848733' post='11257119']One long time players experience with clubs -

I started as a 30 capper like everyone else. What got me from a 12 to a current 5.7?

...being satisfied with a drive 240-250 in the fairway

...hitting approach shots and into par 3s on the green or around it in the right spot

...having an excellent short game (I work at it)

...being a good putter

The irons I use for approach shots and into par 3s MAKES ZERO DIFFERENCE.

Play irons that look good to you and instills confidence. It doesn't matter what they are.

Driving club, wedges, and putter are far more important than your iron set.[/quote]

Lol. Ok.

But they admittedly have terrible short games, can't get off the tee, and aren't the best ball strikers.

govols · March 31, 2015

[quote name='DeNinny' timestamp='1427849022' post='11257171'][quote name='Nine Miler' timestamp='1427847011' post='11256915']
Is it possible that you guys are misinterpreting your own experience? I wouldn't put it past you.
[/quote]
Is it possible you are? I've had 8 years using the same two clubs. I'm pretty confident with mine. If you ask that question you need to consider the same for yourself.

BTW nice avatar change and thank you for not mocking those you may disagree with.[/quote]

How do you have confidence in anything if you're gonna shoot anything from high 70s to mid 90s?

Nine Miler · March 31, 2015

[quote name='DeNinny' timestamp='1427849022' post='11257171']
[quote name='Nine Miler' timestamp='1427847011' post='11256915']
Is it possible that you guys are misinterpreting your own experience? I wouldn't put it past you.
[/quote]
Is it possible you are? I've had 8 years using the same two clubs. I'm pretty confident with mine. If you ask that question you need to consider the same for yourself.

BTW nice avatar change and thank you for not mocking those you may disagree with.
[/quote]

I could be. I haven't actually put blades in play in a pretty long time. I have hit some that a buddy of mine and regular playing partner (quarter finalist in US Mid Am/state player of the year) uses. We actually score similarly, but his swing and ball flight is more majestic than mine. Anyway, still haven't hit the 2/3/4 iron blades in a while as he has CBs in those slots.

Maybe I'd be surprised if I tried it. I'm not convinced my mid and short clubs are a ton easier to hit than similar blades, but I know the long irons are easier for me.

And, thank you.