MD/VA/DC Golfers - Ten Seconds or Less

[baddomes]

I was up late one night a few Ryder cups ago and saw the selection process. I think there is some ability to pick matches (team a throws out player x, team B talks for a second and throws out player you, then process reverses.)

 

I was brown out drunk though, so maybe none of that happened.

 

FAbb does a good job making pairings. He also told us he'd do anything for us. What a captain.

[dcmidnight]

I agree with City for the first two days, save that I think you want to take the hot twosome and keep them together - whoever that is year to year. but for most of the first two days of matches I think you could do a random draw and forget about it.

 

Sunday I think is a different story. You want your smoking hot guys out first - or a guy that steps up and asks for it. If you have guys that aren't playing well, you want to bury them somewhere in the 8-11 range and pray their points dont matter. Maybe put someone whos playing better at #12 just in case. Now sure, anyone at any time could shoot any score - but I do think there is something to setting the singles lineup.

 

There's essentially nothing anyone could say that would make me change my opinion on that.

 

WHUT???

[TheCityGame]

FAbb does a good job making pairings.

Fabb is 1-2 in Capitol Cup.

 

And, I think the generally accepted narrative about Capitol Cup is that we had a bunch of guys who weren't used to playing in tournaments playing against a bunch of guys who were used to playing in tournaments and as we got more used to it, we started doing better.

 

I guess an alternate narrative would be that Fabb learned how to pair guys up better.

 

An alternate narrative would be that a bunch of golfers went out and played golf and sometimes you win and sometimes you lose.

[jhbangas]

FAbb does a good job making pairings.

Fabb is 1-2 in Capitol Cup.

 

And, I think the generally accepted narrative about Capitol Cup is that we had a bunch of guys who weren't used to playing in tournaments playing against a bunch of guys who were used to playing in tournaments and as we got more used to it, we started doing better.

 

I guess an alternate narrative would be that Fabb learned how to pair guys up better.

 

An alternate narrative would be that a bunch of golfers went out and played golf and sometimes you win and sometimes you lose.

 

Soviet Eagle is so pleased right now and it's only January 12.

[baddomes]

FAbb does a good job making pairings.

Fabb is 1-2 in Capitol Cup.

 

 

I wasn't talking about Capitol Cup. FAbb is 1-0 at Pinehurst

[SullGolf]

Speaking of which, someone owes me $10 from Pinehurst for the beating FAbb's team put on FABb's-FIL's team.

 

Also, City, there is yet another alternative explanation for our success at the Cap Cup, as Eagle has previously pointed out:

[TheCityGame]

There's essentially nothing anyone could say that would make me change my opinion on that.

 

WHUT???

I know that sounds stubborn, but my point is that in a case like this, I need to see some kind of proof. I don't want to hear the things that SOUND GOOD, that get repeated every Ryder Cup.

 

I could pair together DJ and ZJ and someone will say, "they're not used to playing from those spots. You can't pair a long guy and short guy." <-- that's a story. That's not an argument.

 

Because then I'd say, "well, the short ball hitter must have great short game skills, so he's great off the other guys drive. And the long guy doesn't care if he's coming in from further because he hits his mid irons so high and long." <---- That's a story too.

 

And then we're just telling stories in circles. We're not arguing.

 

Find a way to SHOW ME that a long guy and a short pair worse than two long guys or two short guys.

 

 

I think you can make just as good a case for putting your strong guys out LAST on Sunday as early on Sunday. Plenty of cap's have done this, no? Sometimes with success. Sometimes with failure. But, if we want to argue that, we're just arguing who has the better story, not the better data.

[misplacedtexan83]

City...

 

Tell us how you feel about Differentials to score?

 

Completely agree with City... the captain just had to be someone the guys like not a get off my yard Tom Watson --- nothing but respect but that was a debacle.

And, if the morning groups went out that day and sank some putts like the Euro's did, no one would have been fighting in the locker room that night and everyone would have talked about how they all pulled together for Old Tom.

 

@Nerf, I don't think any golfer who plays in the Ryder Cup is daunted by playing from a distance he isn't used to. Pair ZJ with DJ and they're both hitting shots they've played a thousand times. I just don't buy it.

 

[vtnerf]

City, the show me argument is a cop out. It's like saying there's aliens...show me there aren't. Just say you feel differently. Or call BS. It's all good. :air_kiss:

[priceless]

City...

 

Tell us how you feel about Differentials to score?

 

Completely agree with City... the captain just had to be someone the guys like not a get off my yard Tom Watson --- nothing but respect but that was a debacle.

And, if the morning groups went out that day and sank some putts like the Euro's did, no one would have been fighting in the locker room that night and everyone would have talked about how they all pulled together for Old Tom.

 

@Nerf, I don't think any golfer who plays in the Ryder Cup is daunted by playing from a distance he isn't used to. Pair ZJ with DJ and they're both hitting shots they've played a thousand times. I just don't buy it.

 

 

Yep, and if the Queen had balls, she'd be the King.

[vtnerf]

Don't be all

 

Just

 

Then you can be all

 

But just to make sure

 

So, to recap. I personally don't like Furyk as cap. But, as long as the players do, I'll say Captain my Captain.

And I, personally, wouldn't pair long duck dong with shorty Jim. I don't believe its a good fit for chemistry or for winning that match. Just me...

[TheCityGame]

City, the show me argument is a cop out. It's like saying there's aliens...show me there aren't. Just say you feel differently. Or call BS. It's all good. :air_kiss:

With all due respect, I think you have it backwards, Nerf.

 

You're the one making a claim here. . ."pairing A & B together is a better strategy than random pairing".

 

I'm not asking you to prove a negative. Just because it's conventional wisdom doesn't make the default case (the "null hypothesis").

 

There was a time that people said stuff like I'm saying about batting orders, "oh, it doesn't make a difference. You could bat guys any which way."

 

First of all. . .there's a REAL logical argument to batting orders. . .you want the best guys to get the most appearances.

 

Secondly, people did prove it. OK, the "random order" guys were shut down.

 

So, you take an argument like "put your best guys out first on Sunday". The idea there is that if they go get point, they're going to INSPIRE the back of the order. But, they don't get to play more golf than the other guys. A point is a point. It makes for better TV if the trailing team doesn't get blown out on Sunday, but it might not be the best strategy for total points.

 

What kinds of things do I think a captain can do? The kinds of things they DON'T DO. E.g.

 

Euros have A, B, C, D.

 

USA has their A, B, C, D.

 

But, lets' say the Euros have an edge in every one of those matches. If I was USA captain, I'd do something like put my A&B against their C&D. I'm conceeding the first two matches, but out of those 4 matches, I think I can get 2 points instead of 1 or 0.

 

But we don't do that. We have to "man up" and throw our ace against their ace. In this way, a captain can subvert the best strategy.

[eagle1997]

I don't want to hear the things that SOUND GOOD...

 

...And then we're just telling stories in circles. We're not arguing.

 

 

yeah, i too hate it when guys just tell made up stories that sound good to support their point.

 

 

 

 

 

Personally, I'm walking off the white tees at P-Tux like, "wow, I played like crap. I lost balls. I didn't make a putt. Fortunately it was playing so short because I was able to hit 4 iron off a bunch of tees and get the ball in good position and I reached every 5 and had wedges in on the par 3's." I'm NOT happy with that round.

 

And I'm walking off Waverly like, "man, I was pounding it. Didn't make any birdies and bogeyed 3 of those par 3's playing 180-230. DIdn't reach any 5's, but I'm pretty happy with that score."

[2moreTerps]

And if the bolded were true, why even have a captain, or their picks, or have headlines and books written about how they handled things?

Because we have a media industry.

 

I absolutely believe -- this is not just for the sake of argument -- you could take the top 10 (12? Whatever) OWGR USA players, pair them ANY WAY YOU WANT. . .randomly, alphabetically, by ranking. . .give them the rules, and it wouldn't make a lick of difference in the outcome. No captain whatsoever.

 

We'll never have evidence to dispute or affirm that, so we'd just be arguing opinions, but there's essentially nothing anyone could say that would make me change my opinion on that.

 

Sony Open this week

Justin Thomas is 14-1. OWGR 12

Justin Rose is 28-1. OWGR - 16

Brandt Snedeker is 25-1. OWGR 27

 

Why? Thomas has been playing recently and Justin Rose has had some injury stuff happening. If what you were saying was correct wouldn't their chances of winning the tournament be even? Even if you discount the style differences between different players we all know when we're playing well and when we're not. Don't you have a better chance to win if you put your players playing well out vs. the guys not playing well?

 

In some sense I agree with you. I don't think the Captain can do a good job, I think they can do a bad job. There is ALWAYS the opportunity to make poor strategic decisions.

[eagle1997]

Also, City, there is yet another alternative explanation for our success at the Cap Cup, as Eagle has previously pointed out:

 

love how sully is getting likes for posting a shopjob of himself.

[thechief16]

Golf Talk Thursday : What is the most fun golf course you played in 2016?

 

Essex County Club (Essex, MA). Incidentally, just broke into GD's top 100 for the first time. Not bad for an old Ross course that was built 100 years ago.

[priceless]

There are only two things I know for sure regarding the Ryder Cup. One, the USA will field a team. Two, I'm not going to be on it.

[vtnerf]

It goes to playing as a team for that match also. Long duck hits a bomb. Shorty Jim has to hit the second.

Shorty: Hey, Duck, what would you do here?

Duck: Just hit a flip sand wedge 56 to the backstop and spin in just below the hole.

Shorty: But it's 125. That's my 9 iron!

Duck: Well, then I can't help you. Get it close...

 

<splash in the sand...>

 

<loss of hole>

 

<loss of match>

 

<loss of cup>

 

Same goes for foursome and fourball. Relying on your partner and positive feedback is huge. Ever hear a caddie say "Just swing hard." No. It's trust it, hit it close, believe it, that's the stick, I like it, see it...

 

 

What's the most productive successful dominant pairing in Ryder history???

Seve and Olazabal. SImilar games. Same Country. Same flair. Same approach. 11-2-2. 12 points.

Those two, just in THEIR paired up matches-no singles points-have more points than the TOTAL points of DL3, Sam Snead, Tom Watson, Fred Couples, Hal Sutton, shall I go on...

 

Want another? Darren Clarke and Lee Westwood. Similar game, same country. 6-2.

 

Onto the US... Patrick Reed and Jordan Spieth. 4-1-2 for 5 points in 7 matches. Close games, both Texas boys, both young guns with bravado.

Keegan Bradley and Phil Mickelson. Both quirky, long, creative, firey. 4-1 in 5 matches.

 

Steve Stricker and Tiger Woods. Short and long together. 2-4. 1-2 in foursomes.

Phil Mickelson and David Toms. Short and long together. 3-2-1. 2-1-1 in foursomes. meh

 

Now, can you tell me who has lost the most Ryder Cup overall matches on the US Side? #3 is el Tigre. #2 is Figjam. And #1 is........Jim Furyk.

[misplacedtexan83]

Circling back to short/long knockers team together.

 

I love pairing with Kent. He is very consistent but get him closer to the green he is a shark.

 

And you can swing freely because you know he will more in likely be safe (except at Needwood #18).

 

My first CC I wasn't ready for competition golf. --- it open my eyes to become better.

 

This year... I didn't have my best stuff. Some good shots here and there but not enough.

[priceless]

Circling back to short/long knockers team together.

 

I love pairing with Kent. He is very consistent but get him closer to the green he is a shark.

 

And you can swing freely because you know he will more in likely be safe (except at Needwood).

 

My first CC I wasn't ready for competition golf. --- it open my eyes to become better.

 

This year... I didn't have my best stuff. Some good shots here and there but not enough.

 

Every time I see your handle, I am reminded of the story about the Texan that died and St. Peter was giving him a tour of heaven. They went into downtown heaven where the streets were paved with gold. Peter asked what do you think. The Texan responded, they're nice, but we had better streets in Texas. Peter took him to an upscale heaven neighborhood where there was mansion after mansion. The Texan said, nice places Pete but we had better ones in Texas. Long story short, no matter what he saw they were better in Texas. So Peter took him to the very edge of heaven and told the Texan to look over the edge. Doing so, the Texan saw the flames of hell just a lapping up. Peter asked, what to you think of that. The Texas responded, I don't know Pete, but in Texas, we had a guy named Red that will put that damm fire out for ya.

[TheCityGame]

I don't want to hear the things that SOUND GOOD...

 

...And then we're just telling stories in circles. We're not arguing.

 

 

yeah, i too hate it when guys just tell made up stories that sound good to support their point.

 

 

 

 

 

Personally, I'm walking off the white tees at P-Tux like, "wow, I played like crap. I lost balls. I didn't make a putt. Fortunately it was playing so short because I was able to hit 4 iron off a bunch of tees and get the ball in good position and I reached every 5 and had wedges in on the par 3's." I'm NOT happy with that round.

 

And I'm walking off Waverly like, "man, I was pounding it. Didn't make any birdies and bogeyed 3 of those par 3's playing 180-230. DIdn't reach any 5's, but I'm pretty happy with that score."

Eagle, sometimes you need a story when reality isn't getting through.

 

White tees at P-Tux are 1200 yards shorter than the tips at Waverly. Two of the par 5's are shorter than two of the par 4's at Waverly. The other one is about the same as 16, and definitely PLAYS shorter. So you can knock off 3 strokes right there.

 

The par 3's play, in aggregate about 12 clubs shorter.

 

There's at least 3 driveable par 4's at P-Tux.

 

The course ratings are 7 strokes different.

 

The PAR is different.

 

But we'd be just as happy with a 78 at Waverly as we would a 78 at P-Tux because hey, a 78 is a 78.

 

Would saying the same thing for a 5th time gotten the point across yesterday?

[eagle1997]

i'm just throwing mud, i really don't care. let's give it a week or so, then it can start being funny.

[TheCityGame]

It goes to playing as a team for that match also. Long duck hits a bomb. Shorty Jim has to hit the second.

Shorty: Hey, Duck, what would you do here?

Duck: Just hit a flip sand wedge 56 to the backstop and spin in just below the hole.

Shorty: But it's 125. That's my 9 iron!

Duck: Well, then I can't help you. Get it close...

 

<splash in the sand...>

 

<loss of hole>

 

<loss of match>

 

<loss of cup>

 

Same goes for foursome and fourball. Relying on your partner and positive feedback is huge. Ever hear a caddie say "Just swing hard." No. It's trust it, hit it close, believe it, that's the stick, I like it, see it...

 

 

What's the most productive successful dominant pairing in Ryder history???

Seve and Olazabal. SImilar games. Same Country. Same flair. Same approach. 11-2-2. 12 points.

Those two, just in THEIR paired up matches-no singles points-have more points than the TOTAL points of DL3, Sam Snead, Tom Watson, Fred Couples, Hal Sutton, shall I go on...

 

Want another? Darren Clarke and Lee Westwood. Similar game, same country. 6-2.

 

Onto the US... Patrick Reed and Jordan Spieth. 4-1-2 for 5 points in 7 matches. Close games, both Texas boys, both young guns with bravado.

Keegan Bradley and Phil Mickelson. Both quirky, long, creative, firey. 4-1 in 5 matches.

 

Steve Stricker and Tiger Woods. Short and long together. 2-4. 1-2 in foursomes.

Phil Mickelson and David Toms. Short and long together. 3-2-1. 2-1-1 in foursomes. meh

 

Now, can you tell me who has lost the most Ryder Cup overall matches on the US Side? #3 is el Tigre. #2 is Figjam. And #1 is........Jim Furyk.

I really didn't set out to be so antagonistic today, but yes, you should go on.

 

What you did is. . .

 

1) Found guys that had a good record together, then

2) Indicated some similarity between them.

 

And then,

 

1) Found guys that had a bad record together

2) Indicated some way in which they were different.

 

To properly do this, you'd need to show every ryder cup pairing in history (or at least some large, random sample of pairings), come up with some "similarity metric" that reasonable people would agree on (both fiesty? both long? Both creative?), and then show that "similar players" perform better together than "dis-similar" players.

 

I know I'm sounding like a b1tch about this, but this is what I do. It's very difficult to prove things that "we all know". That very idea is basically what the last 6 Michael Lewis books are based on.

[misplacedtexan83]

i'm just throwing mud, i really don't care. let's give it a week or so, then it can start being funny.

 

[priceless]

As I stated previously, I play most of my golf from the senior tees which has both good and bad news. The good news is that the shorter distances means I have a better chance of reaching the greens in regulation. From the regular tees, such is not the case and I'm hoping for a one putt. The bad news is that a have a better chance of reaching the designed trouble. From the regular even with a good accurate tee shot, I typically can't reach the designed trouble.

[vtnerf]

What I did was go here https://en.wikipedia...der_Cup_records

 

Checked the section of Most Frequent Pairings which needed 7 or more for Euro (12 pairs) and 5 or more for US (8 pairs)

And used that to post. So I had 20 pairs with a lot of experience to show examples. Using a pair that has one or two matches under their belt doesn't really show much on your statistical requirement does it? Those are anomalies. Outliers. And shouldn't be included. So they aren't. (Nor were they dug up, because anyone can win or lose 1 match and I'm now scouring that much info for crap stats..) But go 11-2-2 over the years. That's a good pairing. Then you have to ask why...Why do you think they were good together? Seriously, what made them so tough together as a team.

 

On the flip, why do you think Sticker and Woods were bad together? That's not opinion, that's the 2-4-0 record. Why did that happen?

 

As far the others I didn't include, there are some that I just can't speak to their game. You and I are about a year apart in age, and closer to Kent-time than some others in here, but even I don't know how Neil Coles and Gardner Dickinson golfed their ball.

[TheCityGame]

What I did was go here https://en.wikipedia...der_Cup_records

 

Checked the section of Most Frequent Pairings which needed 7 or more for Euro (12 pairs) and 5 or more for US (8 pairs)

And used that to post. So I had 20 pairs with a lot of experience to show examples. Using a pair that has one or two matches under their belt doesn't really show much on your statistical requirement does it? Those are anomalies. Outliers. And shouldn't be included. So they aren't. (Nor were they dug up, because anyone can win or lose 1 match and I'm now scouring that much info for crap stats..) But go 11-2-2 over the years. That's a good pairing. Then you have to ask why...Why do you think they were good together? Seriously, what made them so tough together as a team.

Well, the first thing I'd say is that they were probably -- in sum -- the best ranked team in most of their matches. They were just the best team out there, not because of magic team chemistry. Because they were the best.

 

They didn't team up in 2000 and win because they magically became Golf Voltron when they pegged it together.

 

I looked at some of their matches. Some are probably great wins. I don't know if they played a team that has as many major wins as the two of them put together. Or total wins. I'm not checking every one in the record book.

[FAbb]

Why is city being a d1ck, and selling my captaincy short? I'm 1-3, not 1-2, buckaroo.

[dcmidnight]

A++, 10/10 thread week so far.

 

 

[DT15]

What I did was go here https://en.wikipedia...der_Cup_records

 

Checked the section of Most Frequent Pairings which needed 7 or more for Euro (12 pairs) and 5 or more for US (8 pairs)

And used that to post. So I had 20 pairs with a lot of experience to show examples. Using a pair that has one or two matches under their belt doesn't really show much on your statistical requirement does it? Those are anomalies. Outliers. And shouldn't be included. So they aren't. (Nor were they dug up, because anyone can win or lose 1 match and I'm now scouring that much info for crap stats..) But go 11-2-2 over the years. That's a good pairing. Then you have to ask why...Why do you think they were good together? Seriously, what made them so tough together as a team.

Well, the first thing I'd say is that they were probably -- in sum -- the best ranked team in most of their matches. They were just the best team out there, not because of magic team chemistry. Because they were the best.

 

They didn't team up in 2000 and win because they magically became Golf Voltron when they pegged it together.

 

I looked at some of their matches. Some are probably great wins. I don't know if they played a team that has as many major wins as the two of them put together. Or total wins. I'm not checking every one in the record book.

 

You should rethink the effect that player distance pairings and similarities has on the mojo of playing together in the Ryder Cup.

 

This sounds like you just digging your heels in when presented with a scenario that sort of dismisses your argument.

 

At this point I am just going to believe vtnerf is being trolled here.