Gamesmanship- Artform or Annoying

[Hawkeye77]

You're the caddy - how did "we" win?

 

Let the clubs do the talking.

[Caddykev]

Caddykev,

What is your personal definition of gamesmanship? Examples of acceptable gamesmanship would be helpful.

Exploiting a weakness in an opponent while still showing proper golf ettiquete. Examples

They play fast, slowing your game down.

Dealing with their ball on the green as you see fit. What happened to Allison lee in the Solheim cup was her fault, always have to remember your opponent controls your ball on the green

If their a talker, be silent but polite. If they are quiet, try and engage in conversation.

Etc.

[Forged4ever]

The one guy is rattled by beer drinking during a round of golf? The other by a cigar out in the open? Seriously? These guys must play by themselves in a dome. To topic, gamesmanship is BS of the lowest order, and I've seen it bite practitioners in the Word not allowed.

No, some people are that stiff at some country clubs. I have also seen both as well.

Hey my Man, talk to me about these "stiff country club guys"

 

They sound like a bunch of dicks(no pun intended), lol

 

All the Best,

RP

[KevCarter]

Some gamesmanship is strategy, some annoying, and some downright disrespectful. Not conceding a putt to me is a good example of good gamesmanship. Every player should have it in their mind to hole out every hole. Losing a match because you were frustrated that your opponent didn't concede you a two foot putt has their mental focus on the wrong things.

 

However, some guys go way too far to distract you or try to make you hit poor shots. That is when tournament golf gets really disrespectful and petty. Everyone should give respect to players when hitting shots. If you are stalking the guy on the course to research every weakness he has to use against him that would constitute crossing the the line. :)

I agree, expect to putt everything out. I agree that there is a difference in gamesmanship. Some people are outright disrespectful. Heard a story about ken bakst in the Atlantic club championship final purposefully teeing off on the 10th before his opponent even though he had lost the hole, then conceding after the young kid called him on it, and saying something like you shouldn't be beating me and let's go to the next. That is not gamesmanship to me, that is just obnoxious and crossing the line. It worked for him, and maybe that kind of ruthlessness is why he won the mid am.

 

Why would he concede the hole?

[Forged4ever]

I'm too into myself and my game to be thinking about someone else and theirs and if they're thinkin of gaming me, good luck with that, lmao

 

Welcome to the board⛳️

 

Fairways & Greens 4ever My Friend⛳️

RP

[MadGolfer76]

A balm for weaker players.

 

Agreed.

Disagree, the best players in the world do it all the time. Your telling me tiger didn't purposely pull that wood while Sergio was about to hit at the players that time. He knew the crowd would react, and knew that Sergio is that fragile. Tiger employed his gallery a lot early on in his dominance. Also Jimenez owned Keegan in the match play s couple years back to the point that Keegan even admitted he was schooled by the elder. Not sure these are weak players.

 

If he was a better player (which he was), there was no need for gamesmanship. Doing it when you don't need to is just being a jerk. Doing it when you have to is just being weak.

[Caddykev]

Some gamesmanship is strategy, some annoying, and some downright disrespectful. Not conceding a putt to me is a good example of good gamesmanship. Every player should have it in their mind to hole out every hole. Losing a match because you were frustrated that your opponent didn't concede you a two foot putt has their mental focus on the wrong things.

 

However, some guys go way too far to distract you or try to make you hit poor shots. That is when tournament golf gets really disrespectful and petty. Everyone should give respect to players when hitting shots. If you are stalking the guy on the course to research every weakness he has to use against him that would constitute crossing the the line. :)

I agree, expect to putt everything out. I agree that there is a difference in gamesmanship. Some people are outright disrespectful. Heard a story about ken bakst in the Atlantic club championship final purposefully teeing off on the 10th before his opponent even though he had lost the hole, then conceding after the young kid called him on it, and saying something like you shouldn't be beating me and let's go to the next. That is not gamesmanship to me, that is just obnoxious and crossing the line. It worked for him, and maybe that kind of ruthlessness is why he won the mid am.

 

Why would he concede the hole?

Not sure, maybe to rattle the kid.

[Caddykev]

You're the caddy - how did "we" win?

 

Let the clubs do the talking.

Been watching to many interviews lately hearing the we. Plus I got paid very well on that run as well as flown to fishers, played Shinny and some others. I'm new to the wrx, but have read enough to know that any self respecting wrxer wouldn't have even been 2 down they 8 haha

[Caddykev]

I'm too into myself and my game to be thinking about someone else and theirs and if they're thinkin of gaming me, good luck with that, lmao

 

Welcome to the board⛳️

 

Fairways & Greens 4ever My Friend⛳️

RP

In my own golf game I'm the same way. I just miss the good old gamesmanship of playing with the old guys growing up.

[teejaywhy]

If someone has a giant button on their chest, it can sometimes be hard not to push it.

:drinks:

[TheLarch]

Those who need to enlist "gamesmanship" on the course are always weasels off the course as well.

[Francois]

Caddykev,

What is your personal definition of gamesmanship? Examples of acceptable gamesmanship would be helpful.

 

Not the OP but I remember a very good example from Vijay Singh. Can't remember the tournament but coming down the stretch Vijay and the other guy in his group was tied for the lead. On a par 5, with water fronting the green, Vijay drives his ball into the rough. The other guy is further from the green but in the fairway therefore he is away. Vijay walks to his ball in the rough and instantly pulls out a fairway wood, clearly signaling his intentions. Competitor sees this, goes for the green only to dunk it in the water. Vijay puts the FWY back in the bag, wedges it out of the horrible lie he was in and makes par to win.

[Newby]

Caddykev,

What is your personal definition of gamesmanship? Examples of acceptable gamesmanship would be helpful.

 

Not the OP but I remember a very good example from Vijay Singh. Can't remember the tournament but coming down the stretch Vijay and the other guy in his group was tied for the lead. On a par 5, with water fronting the green, Vijay drives his ball into the rough. The other guy is further from the green but in the fairway therefore he is away. Vijay walks to his ball in the rough and instantly pulls out a fairway wood, clearly signaling his intentions. Competitor sees this, goes for the green only to dunk it in the water. Vijay puts the FWY back in the bag, wedges it out of the horrible lie he was in and makes par to win.

 

Perhaps Vijay assumed the other player would make the green and reckon he would have to play a tough shot to win or halve. He wouldn't have expected the dunk.

[Eidolon]

I have to disagree here about VJ. Watch a tournament player, he never pulls a club until he is sure of his intent, the shot needed and the club required to play the shot. Mike

[Francois]

I have to disagree here about VJ. Watch a tournament player, he never pulls a club until he is sure of his intent, the shot needed and the club required to play the shot. Mike

 

His intent was never to hit the 3 wood. His intent was gaming his competitor to think that he had a great lie and was going for the green. His lie was horrible and he knew it. His competitor on the other hand did not.

[Newby]

 

His intent was never to hit the 3 wood.

 

You know this for a fact ?

Telepathy? Or perhaps.he told you.

[Badgergolfer2]

Its an artform and its annoying. If youre going to do it, you need to be subtle enough that you get on your opponent's nerves but arent so obvious about it that they realize youre doing it on purpose. Im guilty of doing it much of the time but when I do it, I more of what Id call, "small talk guy". I'll talk to you about anything, the weather, a local sports team, the course, your swing, bad luck on your part, good luck on my part, whatever. If I can get you thinking about things other than youre swing and your game, its an advantage for me.

At the same time though, when someone tries to do it to me, its annoying. LOL I usually let it go for 4 or 5 holes before I out them on it.

[taporsnap17]

It can be both annoying and an art form.

 

Asking someone to move their mark hoping they won't move it back is annoying to say the least.

 

Asking the FC to move their marker hoping they don't move it back ain't gamesmanship it's being a a-hole... Really desperate, digging the bottom of the barrel stuff that one IMO

[taporsnap17]

Some gamesmanship is strategy, some annoying, and some downright disrespectful. Not conceding a putt to me is a good example of good gamesmanship. Every player should have it in their mind to hole out every hole. Losing a match because you were frustrated that your opponent didn't concede you a two foot putt has their mental focus on the wrong things.

 

However, some guys go way too far to distract you or try to make you hit poor shots. That is when tournament golf gets really disrespectful and petty. Everyone should give respect to players when hitting shots. If you are stalking the guy on the course to research every weakness he has to use against him that would constitute crossing the the line. :)

 

I don't think making a opponent putt out is gamesmanship. Like most have said, expect to putt it out. Giving the short ones early on and making people putt out isn't really. The match it tight, things happen. Throw in a line of "You've been yippy the last few holes" or "I see a bit of a break on this one..." now that's gamesmanship of the highest order :D

[taporsnap17]

A balm for weaker players.

 

Agreed.

Disagree, the best players in the world do it all the time. Your telling me tiger didn't purposely pull that wood while Sergio was about to hit at the players that time. He knew the crowd would react, and knew that Sergio is that fragile. Tiger employed his gallery a lot early on in his dominance. Also Jimenez owned Keegan in the match play s couple years back to the point that Keegan even admitted he was schooled by the elder. Not sure these are weak players.

 

Jimenez knew what he was doing... but by that token, he was also well within his rights to ask and make sure the correct drop or whatever was taken. I gave him a clap for a excellent piece of work

[taporsnap17]

Growing up playing with some older characters, the art of gamesmanship that I experienced prepared me for anything in competive golf. I learned how to read opponents, and how to spot their attempts to derail me. I'll never forget a kid in junior college constantly asking the players in our group to move our ballmarkers even when they were definitely outside of his line and forgetting to remind us to put them back, I called him out on it after a couple of holes but it rattled the kid from another college in our group and he never recovered in that round. Now that my competitive days are over and I caddy in the summer in Long Island, I was shocked by how easily some guys were easily defeated by not having a putt conceded, or just paying to much attention to their opponents play. A couple of years ago I was caddying for s couple of new members that were definitely nervous playing their first opponents in the member member. They asked me for any advice on match play so I sized up our superior competition. After we were down 2 on 8, I decided to throw in my two cents and have them employ some gamesmanship. The two gentlemen we were playing were very serious, and we had in my opinion been too generous with gimmes. I told my one player to get his normal beers, and my other guy to finally fire up his cigar. The crack of the can def rattled the one guy by the look he gave once he had heard it, and saw the bag of beers dropped by the bag. I had also overheard them talk about how much they hated cigars so I knew it would also annoy them a bit. Needless to say we got back to even by 16, and I told my guy to run into the clubhouse quick to get some more beers. We ended up winning the match to guys we would have lost to easily 5 and 4 on that day. I personally thought it was the right move to change the eb and flow of the match, but I know others will agree. Weeks later I knew it worked when I caddied for one of the opponents and he couldn't believe my player would drink that much in a match. Just curious, what's everyone's take on gamesmanship, is it an artform and apart of the game or annoying, and something you hate.

 

Man that's a lot of work and effort! Polite clap for the effort.

 

It probably wouldn't have affected me much. The drinking... I'd probably ask to partake, the cigars would've been a issue for me and that's because I'm asthmatic and the smoke would probably trigger a lot of hacking and coughing

[Caddykev]

A balm for weaker players.

 

Agreed.

Disagree, the best players in the world do it all the time. Your telling me tiger didn't purposely pull that wood while Sergio was about to hit at the players that time. He knew the crowd would react, and knew that Sergio is that fragile. Tiger employed his gallery a lot early on in his dominance. Also Jimenez owned Keegan in the match play s couple years back to the point that Keegan even admitted he was schooled by the elder. Not sure these are weak players.

 

Jimenez knew what he was doing... but by that token, he was also well within his rights to ask and make sure the correct drop or whatever was taken. I gave him a clap for a excellent piece of work

I agree, it was a stroke of genius that Keegan later on even admitted to.

[Caddykev]

Some gamesmanship is strategy, some annoying, and some downright disrespectful. Not conceding a putt to me is a good example of good gamesmanship. Every player should have it in their mind to hole out every hole. Losing a match because you were frustrated that your opponent didn't concede you a two foot putt has their mental focus on the wrong things.

 

However, some guys go way too far to distract you or try to make you hit poor shots. That is when tournament golf gets really disrespectful and petty. Everyone should give respect to players when hitting shots. If you are stalking the guy on the course to research every weakness he has to use against him that would constitute crossing the the line. :)

 

I don't think making a opponent putt out is gamesmanship. Like most have said, expect to putt it out. Giving the short ones early on and making people putt out isn't really. The match it tight, things happen. Throw in a line of "You've been yippy the last few holes" or "I see a bit of a break on this one..." now that's gamesmanship of the highest order :D

I always thought the same way until I started caddying. I was shocked how the whole gimmee thing affected players by not getting one that they had gotten earlier.

[Caddykev]

Growing up playing with some older characters, the art of gamesmanship that I experienced prepared me for anything in competive golf. I learned how to read opponents, and how to spot their attempts to derail me. I'll never forget a kid in junior college constantly asking the players in our group to move our ballmarkers even when they were definitely outside of his line and forgetting to remind us to put them back, I called him out on it after a couple of holes but it rattled the kid from another college in our group and he never recovered in that round. Now that my competitive days are over and I caddy in the summer in Long Island, I was shocked by how easily some guys were easily defeated by not having a putt conceded, or just paying to much attention to their opponents play. A couple of years ago I was caddying for s couple of new members that were definitely nervous playing their first opponents in the member member. They asked me for any advice on match play so I sized up our superior competition. After we were down 2 on 8, I decided to throw in my two cents and have them employ some gamesmanship. The two gentlemen we were playing were very serious, and we had in my opinion been too generous with gimmes. I told my one player to get his normal beers, and my other guy to finally fire up his cigar. The crack of the can def rattled the one guy by the look he gave once he had heard it, and saw the bag of beers dropped by the bag. I had also overheard them talk about how much they hated cigars so I knew it would also annoy them a bit. Needless to say we got back to even by 16, and I told my guy to run into the clubhouse quick to get some more beers. We ended up winning the match to guys we would have lost to easily 5 and 4 on that day. I personally thought it was the right move to change the eb and flow of the match, but I know others will agree. Weeks later I knew it worked when I caddied for one of the opponents and he couldn't believe my player would drink that much in a match. Just curious, what's everyone's take on gamesmanship, is it an artform and apart of the game or annoying, and something you hate.

 

Man that's a lot of work and effort! Polite clap for the effort.

 

It probably wouldn't have affected me much. The drinking... I'd probably ask to partake, the cigars would've been a issue for me and that's because I'm asthmatic and the smoke would probably trigger a lot of hacking and coughing

I had two newbies that were nervous and afraid. Helped turn them into a force in the member member even though Hawkeye thinks I should get no credit. Showed them even how to spot it in their opponents actions. That only worked two years in a row with the stiffs, the one guy still goes on about how much my guy drank in the matches. I think it's an artform if dome within the rules and ettiquete but my own thread has shown me that the wrx seems to think otherwise.

[Caddykev]

It can be both annoying and an art form.

 

Asking someone to move their mark hoping they won't move it back is annoying to say the least.

 

Asking the FC to move their marker hoping they don't move it back ain't gamesmanship it's being a a-hole... Really desperate, digging the bottom of the barrel stuff that one IMO

That's why we called him on it. Jerkoff move, like moving while someone is hitting or so on. Big difference between gamesmanship and just being a dick

[Hawkeye77]

Growing up playing with some older characters, the art of gamesmanship that I experienced prepared me for anything in competive golf. I learned how to read opponents, and how to spot their attempts to derail me. I'll never forget a kid in junior college constantly asking the players in our group to move our ballmarkers even when they were definitely outside of his line and forgetting to remind us to put them back, I called him out on it after a couple of holes but it rattled the kid from another college in our group and he never recovered in that round. Now that my competitive days are over and I caddy in the summer in Long Island, I was shocked by how easily some guys were easily defeated by not having a putt conceded, or just paying to much attention to their opponents play. A couple of years ago I was caddying for s couple of new members that were definitely nervous playing their first opponents in the member member. They asked me for any advice on match play so I sized up our superior competition. After we were down 2 on 8, I decided to throw in my two cents and have them employ some gamesmanship. The two gentlemen we were playing were very serious, and we had in my opinion been too generous with gimmes. I told my one player to get his normal beers, and my other guy to finally fire up his cigar. The crack of the can def rattled the one guy by the look he gave once he had heard it, and saw the bag of beers dropped by the bag. I had also overheard them talk about how much they hated cigars so I knew it would also annoy them a bit. Needless to say we got back to even by 16, and I told my guy to run into the clubhouse quick to get some more beers. We ended up winning the match to guys we would have lost to easily 5 and 4 on that day. I personally thought it was the right move to change the eb and flow of the match, but I know others will agree. Weeks later I knew it worked when I caddied for one of the opponents and he couldn't believe my player would drink that much in a match. Just curious, what's everyone's take on gamesmanship, is it an artform and apart of the game or annoying, and something you hate.

 

Man that's a lot of work and effort! Polite clap for the effort.

 

It probably wouldn't have affected me much. The drinking... I'd probably ask to partake, the cigars would've been a issue for me and that's because I'm asthmatic and the smoke would probably trigger a lot of hacking and coughing

I had two newbies that were nervous and afraid. Helped turn them into a force in the member member even though Hawkeye thinks I should get no credit. Showed them even how to spot it in their opponents actions. That only worked two years in a row with the stiffs, the one guy still goes on about how much my guy drank in the matches. I think it's an artform if dome within the rules and ettiquete but my own thread has shown me that the wrx seems to think otherwise.

 

Didn't say you get no credit or don't make a contribution. You seem to be really into your work, which is a great thing.

[DavePelz4]

Last summer I had the privilege of playing with Hawkeye twice and I saw some incredibly effective gamesmanship from him. In two cases, I hit a good drive on the first hole.

 

He said "nice shot."

 

And then I proceeded to suck for the remainder of the round.

 

He is good. You are warned.

[taporsnap17]

I'm personally all for a bit of gamesmanship, it makes the game a bit more fun. I used to (still do on occasion) play cricket and a bit of sledging is expected. There's always comments of how close something was or another player's eyesight and ability to see and hit the ball etc. I've never questioned parentage though. That's a line that sadly people do cross.

 

I won't cross lines though.

 

Someone in PSR till the ball leaves their clubface, silence... That time is almost sacred. To use cricket as a example, when the bowler starts running in, shut up, your time to get under the batsman's skin is done, let him try to do his job. So no moving, no jiggling of coins, NOTHING.

[Caddykev]

Growing up playing with some older characters, the art of gamesmanship that I experienced prepared me for anything in competive golf. I learned how to read opponents, and how to spot their attempts to derail me. I'll never forget a kid in junior college constantly asking the players in our group to move our ballmarkers even when they were definitely outside of his line and forgetting to remind us to put them back, I called him out on it after a couple of holes but it rattled the kid from another college in our group and he never recovered in that round. Now that my competitive days are over and I caddy in the summer in Long Island, I was shocked by how easily some guys were easily defeated by not having a putt conceded, or just paying to much attention to their opponents play. A couple of years ago I was caddying for s couple of new members that were definitely nervous playing their first opponents in the member member. They asked me for any advice on match play so I sized up our superior competition. After we were down 2 on 8, I decided to throw in my two cents and have them employ some gamesmanship. The two gentlemen we were playing were very serious, and we had in my opinion been too generous with gimmes. I told my one player to get his normal beers, and my other guy to finally fire up his cigar. The crack of the can def rattled the one guy by the look he gave once he had heard it, and saw the bag of beers dropped by the bag. I had also overheard them talk about how much they hated cigars so I knew it would also annoy them a bit. Needless to say we got back to even by 16, and I told my guy to run into the clubhouse quick to get some more beers. We ended up winning the match to guys we would have lost to easily 5 and 4 on that day. I personally thought it was the right move to change the eb and flow of the match, but I know others will agree. Weeks later I knew it worked when I caddied for one of the opponents and he couldn't believe my player would drink that much in a match. Just curious, what's everyone's take on gamesmanship, is it an artform and apart of the game or annoying, and something you hate.

 

Man that's a lot of work and effort! Polite clap for the effort.

 

It probably wouldn't have affected me much. The drinking... I'd probably ask to partake, the cigars would've been a issue for me and that's because I'm asthmatic and the smoke would probably trigger a lot of hacking and coughing

I had two newbies that were nervous and afraid. Helped turn them into a force in the member member even though Hawkeye thinks I should get no credit. Showed them even how to spot it in their opponents actions. That only worked two years in a row with the stiffs, the one guy still goes on about how much my guy drank in the matches. I think it's an artform if dome within the rules and ettiquete but my own thread has shown me that the wrx seems to think otherwise.

 

Didn't say you get no credit or don't make a contribution. You seem to be really into your work, which is a great thing.

Def beats my real job of teaching. With a couple young kids it's the only tournament action I get these days.

[Matt J]

Probably roughly breaks between extroverts and introverts.

 

I for one don't mind a little gamesmanship. I don't intentionally game anyone, but if you find me annoying you probably don't want to play me for money. I don't get any less annoying when I'm winning.