Mike Davis on Distance

[MaddMaxx]

There are 2 types of golfers. The competitive and the rest of us.

The rules are there to make sure it is a test of skill and not equipment.

90% of players will never play a tournament round and probably another 5 who only play their club championship.

 

So it seems to me that entire UGSA exists and creates rules for 5% of the golfing population.

I follow the rules of play but I have used a non conforming driver and even a ping wedge.

[Mdmspop]

Stop trying to protect par. Par is an arbitrary number. It doesn't matter if people are even par or 20 under it. Conditions and course setup dictate the relation to par. They all play the same course. I for one like to witness greatness. And I can't stand watching the US open watching bogey after bogey. If I wanna see a 72-80 posted I'll go watch my golf group play.

 

And if you wanna shrink the game real fast. Take 20 yards off the golf ball. Nothing would infuriate golfers more than having just spent 500$ on a driver and have to watch his 250 yard drive now go 230. That ship has sailed. Golf is hard enough as it is.

 

Dial back technology. We all just witnessed Nike exit hard goods. It would be the single biggest decline for any manufacturer. Hmm i can hear Jim Nantz now. "The all new pro-v1. Sure it's shorter than last years. But you are great and you don't need that 10 yards anyway!"

 

I'm not trying to be a jerk here, but it's interesting that you say forget par, score doesn't matter and then just bit later say you don't like seeing bogey after bogey. I think whether we like to think it's so or not, absolute score vs. par is something we do pay attention to and always will.

[4Par]

People expect to be able to do what pros do in golf for reasons I don't understand. The average person, even if they are a good athlete, can't throw a fastball as fast as a MLB pitcher throws a slow curve. What percentage of people can throw a fastball 75mph? That's a slow curve in the pro game.

 

What percentage of people can hit 45/50 three pointers, any decent shooting guard will do that in the gym every day practicing

 

How fast do you run the 100m dash in?

 

people shouldn't be surprised pros carry driver 280 when they carry it 230. That's proportional to other sports

 

I've made this same analogy several times.... We can't throw a ball as fast as any pro league pitchers..... yet we all aspire to hit a golf ball like a tour pro? Those guys are just phiysically better at moving a ball whether it be strength, flexibility, or technique.

 

99.someththing % of people aren't capable of throwing a ball or hitting a ball like the pros.... end of story.

[Titleist 670]

People expect to be able to do what pros do in golf for reasons I don't understand. The average person, even if they are a good athlete, can't throw a fastball as fast as a MLB pitcher throws a slow curve. What percentage of people can throw a fastball 75mph? That's a slow curve in the pro game.

 

What percentage of people can hit 45/50 three pointers, any decent shooting guard will do that in the gym every day practicing

 

How fast do you run the 100m dash in?

 

people shouldn't be surprised pros carry driver 280 when they carry it 230. That's proportional to other sports

 

If people can't do what pros do in other sports, then how is Tiger built like an NFL linebacker?

 

In all seriousness, I agree with most people here in that I don't understand the notion that technology is ruining the game. I don't think it's made much difference for average Joe golfer. I don't see people at the range striping the ball 250 with horrendous swings.

 

If they think distance is a problem on Tour, make the courses tighter and shorter, not longer. Longer favors the long hitters more, and makes them think less. I think some pros even joke about it, because when there's a 500 yard par 4, they don't ever have to think about what they're doing - they just pound driver off the tee.

 

Some of the best and most challenging holes on Tour every year are hard par 3's or driveable par 4's with severe penalties.

[tannyhoban]

There are 2 types of golfers. The competitive and the rest of us.

The rules are there to make sure it is a test of skill and not equipment.

90% of players will never play a tournament round and probably another 5 who only play their club championship.

 

So it seems to me that entire UGSA exists and creates rules for 5% of the golfing population.

I follow the rules of play but I have used a non conforming driver and even a ping wedge.

 

Well, they arent shy about asking the 95% for money.

[MtlJeff]

There are 2 types of golfers. The competitive and the rest of us.

The rules are there to make sure it is a test of skill and not equipment.

90% of players will never play a tournament round and probably another 5 who only play their club championship.

 

So it seems to me that entire UGSA exists and creates rules for 5% of the golfing population.

I follow the rules of play but I have used a non conforming driver and even a ping wedge.

 

Well, they arent shy about asking the 95% for money.

 

I'm sure it's higher than 95%. If there's 25m people playing rounds I doubt 1.25M of them hit the ball the way Davis is talking about

 

 

[BlackDiamondPar5]

There are 2 types of golfers. The competitive and the rest of us.

The rules are there to make sure it is a test of skill and not equipment.

90% of players will never play a tournament round and probably another 5 who only play their club championship.

 

So it seems to me that entire UGSA exists and creates rules for 5% of the golfing population.

I follow the rules of play but I have used a non conforming driver and even a ping wedge.

 

Well, they arent shy about asking the 95% for money.

 

I'm sure it's higher than 95%. If there's 25m people playing rounds I doubt 1.25M of them hit the ball the way Davis is talking about

Yup you're right they love our money. Which is why I quit my membership years ago. They don't represent the best interest of 95+% of golfers nor golf course operators for that matter. But hey at least they're working on things we don't want... Dialed back ball/clubs and a global handicap system.

[Terry Gold]

Some bureaucrat talking out of both sides of his mouth for most of interview. Approaching Steinberg level.

 

That said...

 

His pitch of this garbage is the real point of relevance:

 

At a recent innovation symposium in Vancouver, I imagined a future that might have variable-distance golf balls, a concept that could be used under the current Rules of Golf. It sounds radical, but if you could have, for example, an 18-hole golf course sitting on, say, only 70 acres, it would take you only a couple of hours to play it. And, by the way, it would be cheaper to maintain because of less labor, less fuel for the mowers, less irrigation and fertilizer. You start to say, that makes sense. And in theory those cost savings could be passed along to the golfer."

 

I'm not even going to waste my time punching holes in every fallacious line of that soft-sell PR hogwash.

 

Either you see that or you don't. But this ain't about the pros hitting the ball too far, the environment, or protecting the integrity of the game. Which is what almost everyone here is taking from it, unfortunately.

 

In any event, whenever someone employs a phrase like 'You start to say...that makes sense', reach for your two iron, because he's dangerous.

No, Mr. Davis, no one said 'that makes sense', except you, cretin.

 

TG

 

Cherry pit topper is casually closing with the 'In theory...you might save $!'

 

Barf.

[bladehunter]

People expect to be able to do what pros do in golf for reasons I don't understand. The average person, even if they are a good athlete, can't throw a fastball as fast as a MLB pitcher throws a slow curve. What percentage of people can throw a fastball 75mph? That's a slow curve in the pro game.

 

What percentage of people can hit 45/50 three pointers, any decent shooting guard will do that in the gym every day practicing

 

How fast do you run the 100m dash in?

 

people shouldn't be surprised pros carry driver 280 when they carry it 230. That's proportional to other sports

 

If people can't do what pros do in other sports, then how is Tiger built like an NFL linebacker?

 

In all seriousness, I agree with most people here in that I don't understand the notion that technology is ruining the game. I don't think it's made much difference for average Joe golfer. I don't see people at the range striping the ball 250 with horrendous swings.

 

If they think distance is a problem on Tour, make the courses tighter and shorter, not longer. Longer favors the long hitters more, and makes them think less. I think some pros even joke about it, because when there's a 500 yard par 4, they don't ever have to think about what they're doing - they just pound driver off the tee.

 

Some of the best and most challenging holes on Tour every year are hard par 3's or driveable par 4's with severe penalties.

 

You are probably correct that for the higher handicap it doesnt make uch difference.. But in distance for the low cap or plus it does .....

 

Let me ask this.. if it makes no difference..why do so many rail against it?

[tannyhoban]

There are 2 types of golfers. The competitive and the rest of us.

The rules are there to make sure it is a test of skill and not equipment.

90% of players will never play a tournament round and probably another 5 who only play their club championship.

 

So it seems to me that entire UGSA exists and creates rules for 5% of the golfing population.

I follow the rules of play but I have used a non conforming driver and even a ping wedge.

 

Well, they arent shy about asking the 95% for money.

 

I'm sure it's higher than 95%. If there's 25m people playing rounds I doubt 1.25M of them hit the ball the way Davis is talking about

 

You're likely correct, I was parroting. Or - I wanted to give all who so claim credit....

[MtlJeff]

People expect to be able to do what pros do in golf for reasons I don't understand. The average person, even if they are a good athlete, can't throw a fastball as fast as a MLB pitcher throws a slow curve. What percentage of people can throw a fastball 75mph? That's a slow curve in the pro game.

 

What percentage of people can hit 45/50 three pointers, any decent shooting guard will do that in the gym every day practicing

 

How fast do you run the 100m dash in?

 

people shouldn't be surprised pros carry driver 280 when they carry it 230. That's proportional to other sports

 

If people can't do what pros do in other sports, then how is Tiger built like an NFL linebacker?

 

In all seriousness, I agree with most people here in that I don't understand the notion that technology is ruining the game. I don't think it's made much difference for average Joe golfer. I don't see people at the range striping the ball 250 with horrendous swings.

 

If they think distance is a problem on Tour, make the courses tighter and shorter, not longer. Longer favors the long hitters more, and makes them think less. I think some pros even joke about it, because when there's a 500 yard par 4, they don't ever have to think about what they're doing - they just pound driver off the tee.

 

Some of the best and most challenging holes on Tour every year are hard par 3's or driveable par 4's with severe penalties.

 

You are probably correct that for the higher handicap it doesnt make uch difference.. But in distance for the low cap or plus it does .....

 

Let me ask this.. if it makes no difference..why do so many rail against it?

 

I believe FWIW that equipment does help people ht it further. I just think we already have the infrastructure in place to deal with 99% of golfers comfortably.

[thug the bunny]

If you think about it though, Most if not all pros hit the ball straight or not too far off center. So making courses narrower would be an option. But how can you do that without making golf courses primarily designed for Professional golfers? You just cant. Think of what Augusta would look like if you really wanted to make it difficult for the pro's. Just think of the Masters with US Open setups. Not fun to watch and probably not as fun to play. So what are the superintendants to do? Make the courses longer of course. Thats about all you can do. So instead of the pro hitting a wedge in, now they have to hit a 7 or 8 iron. For me all they are doing is making it realistic in terms of the driving distance of most professionals now so that the viewing audience can feel in some way that their game is similar to what they see on television. Technology is in part a culprit but until other wise, all you can do is push back the tee boxes.

 

Actually, when I was at the PGA last year, I was surprised at how often the pros miss fairways. But they usually had short or mid irons in so it didn't really matter.

[bladehunter]

People expect to be able to do what pros do in golf for reasons I don't understand. The average person, even if they are a good athlete, can't throw a fastball as fast as a MLB pitcher throws a slow curve. What percentage of people can throw a fastball 75mph? That's a slow curve in the pro game.

 

What percentage of people can hit 45/50 three pointers, any decent shooting guard will do that in the gym every day practicing

 

How fast do you run the 100m dash in?

 

people shouldn't be surprised pros carry driver 280 when they carry it 230. That's proportional to other sports

 

If people can't do what pros do in other sports, then how is Tiger built like an NFL linebacker?

 

In all seriousness, I agree with most people here in that I don't understand the notion that technology is ruining the game. I don't think it's made much difference for average Joe golfer. I don't see people at the range striping the ball 250 with horrendous swings.

 

If they think distance is a problem on Tour, make the courses tighter and shorter, not longer. Longer favors the long hitters more, and makes them think less. I think some pros even joke about it, because when there's a 500 yard par 4, they don't ever have to think about what they're doing - they just pound driver off the tee.

 

Some of the best and most challenging holes on Tour every year are hard par 3's or driveable par 4's with severe penalties.

 

You are probably correct that for the higher handicap it doesnt make uch difference.. But in distance for the low cap or plus it does .....

 

Let me ask this.. if it makes no difference..why do so many rail against it?

 

I believe FWIW that equipment does help people ht it further. I just think we already have the infrastructure in place to deal with 99% of golfers comfortably.

 

sure.. But there are other consequences too...

 

example.... i have a regular playing buddy who is a pga teaching pro.. 56 years old.. small build but the straightest driver ive ever seen... I mean he literally doesnt miss the sprinkler line..much less a fairway 99.9% of the time.... He has commented 100 times that he is 15 yards longer now than in his much younger persimmon days... he flies it average 245- 250 now.. and at times with average amount of roll gets it out 280ish with same accuracy... He is a prime example of a reletively short hitting ( compared to the mini tour pros and plus caps he plays with) player who has been alllowed to not only keep up from the back tees but to be even with alot of them.... No way his distance would have went up over time with spinnier ball and smaller driver head... Im not down on him either ...just a real world example i know of ...

 

 

I dont have the imperical data to back up my thoughts.. But i feel like there is a line somewhere around 100-105 swing speed where tech bridges what would be a massive gap between 100 mph and 115 mph speeds..... the gap isnt as large as it should be in my opinion and the shorter hitter closer to 100 mph keeps up with the higher speed guy if his AOA is up enough and hits it straight.... The ball and the large sweet spot allows this ....

 

and before i get flamed for this .. i am merely trying to point out the inequities from a competition standpoint .... I have said many times Bifurcation is the way to go .. i realize 99 % want an even higher cor driver and an illegal ball if they can get it

[MtlJeff]

Why does it matter though if people hit it further if there are courses that already support them? A guy carrying it 250 isn't making pebble beach obsolete.

 

People over 50 might miss persimmon and wound balls but how many of the 25m guys playing in 2017 went through that? You're talking about equipment changes that will impact millions of golfers when an infrastructure exists to support them and they aren't claiming golf is too easy. It's a huge risk, and Imo an unnecessary one.

 

Even if you reduce course length by 20%,its a pipe dream that golf will ever be soccer. A round that's half hour shorter won't suddenly draw in 10m more players

 

I really believe this is all pointless, or mostly pointless. But that is just my opinion as a 35yr old whose never hit a wooden club and thinks golf is just fine

[bladehunter]

Why does it matter though if people hit it further if there are courses that already support them? A guy carrying it 250 isn't making pebble beach obsolete.

 

People over 50 might miss persimmon and wound balls but how many of the 25m guys playing in 2017 went through that? You're talking about equipment changes that will impact millions of golfers when an infrastructure exists to support them and they aren't claiming golf is too easy. It's a huge risk, and Imo an unnecessary one.

 

Even if you reduce course length by 20%,its a pipe dream that golf will ever be soccer. A round that's half hour shorter won't suddenly draw in 10m more players

 

I really believe this is all pointless, or mostly pointless. But that is just my opinion as a 35yr old whose never hit a wooden club and thinks golf is just fine

 

 

 

oh i agree.. you cant un see what youve now saw.... the cat is out and walking around.... But i think Davis knows that too.... I think hes just acnowledging that they dropped the ball and let it get out of control... in hindsight stopping tech around 2001 would have been better for courses and the game in general.... im talking the game of golf.. not the business golf.... not club sales or schools to teach pros, or attendance for majors or the ratio of new players to the game vs dying ones etc....

[jslane57]

It's about time a leader of golf has said this out loud. Spot on. But yes, you can put the genie back in the bottle. They did it with anchoring. And if they took little steps, they could do so with the ball and clubs too. And who knows about the business of golf, all this technology, and the game is still shrinking, so clearly the current may not be the right answer either...

[king_biscuit]

Let's say they rolled the ball back so that if you play from 6500 yards, that's a real test for you. If the pros played from 6900 yards, that would be a real test for them. The course super could set up the regular tees at 5800 yards, and that would be plenty long for the average golfer.

 

 

5800 yards is plenty long today for the "average" golfer who can't break 100 if keeping score properly and who can't hit an average drive more than 210 or so. The handful of low handicappers who can hit it 300 hanging around on wrx are a very small minority and not close to "average."

[SadTrombone]

I'm ready to go back to my 975D and wound balls. Bring it back. Just don't ask us to play 7600 yard courses and 300 yard Par 3s.

[Ashley Schaeffer]

I don't see how this era is unique when it comes to course conditions and equipment innovation, nor do I think it's cause for concern. Maybe Mike Davis will have to continue to set up joke layouts due to the USGA's obsession with "protecting par." But, this is nothing new. The steel shaft. The graphite shaft. The titanium clubhead. The multilayer ball. The better grooves. The better course maintenance. Oh, my. How about the fact that the athletes are exponentially better now, and can shoot better scores? Big deal! The peach basket was set at ten feet when people were flat palm dribbling and shooting set shots, but the NBA doesn't seem all that concerned with protecting the rim. The passing game hasn't caused the NFL to attempt to protect the end zone. I think the MLB might've raised the mound back up years ago (not sure), but nobody under 80 is really caring if a team rocks 6 long balls in a game. Athletes are better now. Why retard it?

 

If they try to scale back the ball or clubs for the pros, and any WRXer can hit it as far as DJ at his muni on Saturday, it's not be the same sport. That is the attractive thing about golf in the first place: I can't hit the ball out of Yankee Stadium, I can't dunk a basketball, and I went undrafted in this year's NFL draft, again, despite having great hands. But, I might, on occasion, hit one close from 150. Just like a tour pro might. Sure, I'd three jack it, but the fact that anyone can do something on a golf course, just once, like they see on TV is what keeps the amateur game going. There is no reason to make it a different game equipment-wise. Or, we can get all worked up about world class athletes becoming better at golf.

[mosesgolf]

IMO things are fine just the way they are. Tiger was longer in 1997 vs 2007. The average distance on Tour hasn't changed much in 10 years. There are just more guys hitting it longer because we have more athletic and fit guys on Tour. Launch monitors optimize spin/launch to squeeze out more yardage too.

 

It's not just the ball. It's a combination of other things. On a personal level I hit my old Taylormade 360 almost as far as anything today with a Bridgestone Precept ball and I hit it WRX long. Really I do. :D

[Lodestone]

I'm as long off the tee as I ever was, at 63. And that is all because of technology (club + ball). But that is what keeps it fun for old guys. That's a good thing.

 

The courses are plenty long enough for Joe Average, and Mrs. Average.

[tannyhoban]

It's about time a leader of golf has said this out loud. Spot on. But yes, you can put the genie back in the bottle. They did it with anchoring. And if they took little steps, they could do so with the ball and clubs too. And who knows about the business of golf, all this technology, and the game is still shrinking, so clearly the current may not be the right answer either...

 

So you feel like the courses you play need to be lengthened? Are they?

 

I cant think of one layout around here that has been compelled to do so due to the prodigious lengths of amateurs.

 

How about we leave the game be and just play it.

[jslane57]

It's about time a leader of golf has said this out loud. Spot on. But yes, you can put the genie back in the bottle. They did it with anchoring. And if they took little steps, they could do so with the ball and clubs too. And who knows about the business of golf, all this technology, and the game is still shrinking, so clearly the current may not be the right answer either...

 

So you feel like the courses you play need to be lengthened? Are they?

 

I cant think of one layout around here that has been compelled to do so due to the prodigious lengths of amateurs.

 

How about we leave the game be and just play it.

No, I don't see too many going out of their way to lengthen. Instead they simply close. And newer ones with greater length open, but are too long to walk due to many factors. And the time it takes to play, and the cost to play just get higher and higher. If this was truly progress, the game wouldn't be suffering...

[caniac6]

The USGA talks about growing the game, but if they reduce the distance people can hit the ball,they will lose players. The guys I play with enjoy trying to hit their drivers long. A lot of guys have had to move up a set of tees because age has taken distance. They certainly don't need some administrator taking more distance from them. I don't see a bunch of young people playing, and if the USGA runs off a bunch of old guys,golf could be in serious trouble.

[jmvargas]

the perception that modern golf courses are getting longer due to technology and better physical and mental preparation by the elite athletes is in fact a reality..

 

but the longest set of multiple tees which stretches these courses to their max is not meant to be played by the average golfer...it is meant for the pros and elite amateurs..

 

there are some,however, that also THINK they have the ability and power to handle it and then make all sorts of rationalisations when they find out they cannot..

 

so if more people will just play from the appropriate tees most suited for their ability and power i think all this talk about dialing down on the distance of balls and clubs will slowly grind to a halt..

 

at 71 with a career low 3 hdcp and almost 60 years of playing experience i am now most comfortable from a set of tees that would give me a total distance between 5500-6000 yards ...

 

my home course has multiple tees which can stretch to a max of 7048 yds--gold tees-- and a low of less than 5000 yds from the ladies tees--red.

 

the last time i tried the gold tees was more than 25 years ago when i was about a 5 hdcp and i could barely break 82 regularly as my hdcp was based on the blues at about 6500 yds..

 

now i play regularly from the super-senior(whites) and senior(silver) tees and can still enjoy the game a lot..... specially from the whites..

[tannyhoban]

It's about time a leader of golf has said this out loud. Spot on. But yes, you can put the genie back in the bottle. They did it with anchoring. And if they took little steps, they could do so with the ball and clubs too. And who knows about the business of golf, all this technology, and the game is still shrinking, so clearly the current may not be the right answer either...

 

So you feel like the courses you play need to be lengthened? Are they?

 

I cant think of one layout around here that has been compelled to do so due to the prodigious lengths of amateurs.

 

How about we leave the game be and just play it.

No, I don't see too many going out of their way to lengthen. Instead they simply close. And newer ones with greater length open, but are too long to walk due to many factors. And the time it takes to play, and the cost to play just get higher and higher. If this was truly progress, the game wouldn't be suffering...

 

Courses closing have nothing to do with length. Absolutely zero correlation. Every sport gets more expensive over time.

 

Baseball and Softball equipment are redonkulous. Ask me how I know.....

[BlackDiamondPar5]

It's about time a leader of golf has said this out loud. Spot on. But yes, you can put the genie back in the bottle. They did it with anchoring. And if they took little steps, they could do so with the ball and clubs too. And who knows about the business of golf, all this technology, and the game is still shrinking, so clearly the current may not be the right answer either...

 

So you feel like the courses you play need to be lengthened? Are they?

 

I cant think of one layout around here that has been compelled to do so due to the prodigious lengths of amateurs.

 

How about we leave the game be and just play it.

No, I don't see too many going out of their way to lengthen. Instead they simply close. And newer ones with greater length open, but are too long to walk due to many factors. And the time it takes to play, and the cost to play just get higher and higher. If this was truly progress, the game wouldn't be suffering...

Respectfully, I haven't seen a single golf course that caters to John Q Public that's needed to make itself longer due to equipment making it too easy. No course closes because it's too easy.

[skyking]

It's about time a leader of golf has said this out loud. Spot on. But yes, you can put the genie back in the bottle. They did it with anchoring. And if they took little steps, they could do so with the ball and clubs too. And who knows about the business of golf, all this technology, and the game is still shrinking, so clearly the current may not be the right answer either...

 

So you feel like the courses you play need to be lengthened? Are they?

 

I cant think of one layout around here that has been compelled to do so due to the prodigious lengths of amateurs.

 

How about we leave the game be and just play it.

No, I don't see too many going out of their way to lengthen. Instead they simply close. And newer ones with greater length open, but are too long to walk due to many factors. And the time it takes to play, and the cost to play just get higher and higher. If this was truly progress, the game wouldn't be suffering...

 

Yep...our club closed. They did a renovation for length in '08 before I moved here, some members went elsewhere during the renovation, it didn't draw new members and with the debt never was able to get the club to at least break even. The renovation made walking the course borderline practical, which had always been a major draw for members. 6 other courses in my mid-size city have or will close by fall 2018...yes 6. That may be unusual but this added acreage has put real pressure on golf up here.

[new2g0lf]

It's not technology because no matter what driver I use I can't hit it past 260 yards unless I have a 40mph wind at my back and the green is downhill. Pro golfers are elite athletes, the best of the best average over 300 but the majority are well short of that. Wanting to change the driver and ball is like adding weight to running shoes to slow down sprinters because we feel they run too fast.

 

Sports are designed to reward the most gifted and they will always stand out above the rest. If they want to play some older courses that aren't as long they can do things with the rough to make it more penal to not land on the fairway which will lower distances. If the course can't be adapted to provide more challenge for long hitters they could use a special ball for such tournaments but overall I'd prefer they leave it alone and let the best shine.

[MtlJeff]

Any club that wants to add yardage (but isn't hosting regular PGA events) or any designer that wants to design a new 7500yd monstrosity not intended for tour use....if they go out of business it's due to stupidity not the equipment companies.

 

I would guess that 90%+ of the rounds played in north america are on tees that play 6500yds or less. That's a guess but would anyone disagree with that?

 

My course is one of the top 6-7 courses in Quebec talent wise and I'd guess 90% of the rounds are from the 6300yd up tees, based on what I see.

 

One of the most popular public courses around here is 6100yds from the tips and it's always packed

 

There's 2 public courses I know of that play 7100yds. I've literally never seen anyone play the back tees on either. (I have, but not counting myself). Quebec is not a golf hotbed I get that, but still

 

So if youre making business decisions why design something that's so long if 20% of the space wont be used by more than a handful of people but will add maintainance cost.