Mike Davis on Distance

[tyorke1]

Stop trying to protect par. Par is an arbitrary number. It doesn't matter if people are even par or 20 under it. Conditions and course setup dictate the relation to par. They all play the same course. I for one like to witness greatness. And I can't stand watching the US open watching bogey after bogey. If I wanna see a 72-80 posted I'll go watch my golf group play.

I agree lets stop allowing pros to workout, take lessons get fit for clubs. are we saying that for 1 week a yr there course is no good. Think about it, do we slow skates or make a heavy ball in baseball because pitchers are throwing 100mph. Stop worring about what they shoot , most people that play are not getting better no matter what they use.. We need amateurs to enjoy the game more not make it more difficult

And if you wanna shrink the game real fast. Take 20 yards off the golf ball. Nothing would infuriate golfers more than having just spent 500$ on a driver and have to watch his 250 yard drive now go 230. That ship has sailed. Golf is hard enough as it is.

 

Dial back technology. We all just witnessed Nike exit hard goods. It would be the single biggest decline for any manufacturer. Hmm i can hear Jim Nantz now. "The all new pro-v1. Sure it's shorter than last years. But you are great and you don't need that 10 yards anyway!"

[Fade]

Many venues cut and roll the fairways. The average carry distance on Tour is in the 270 range, but almost every week you can see how much roll these guys get. Earlier this year I was watching a rain soaked event and many of the drives were in the 265 - 275 range. And, for the average golfer technology hasn't made a huge difference. The average drive is around 215 yards.

 

Wasn't it 220 yards now? And didn't it use to be 200 yards before modern technology? A 10% gain! Not a small difference, a course that measures 6,600 yards now, would play the same (sort of) as a 6,000 yard course used to play, assuming similar gains across the bag.

[edresnick]

He's talking about 1% of 1% of players. That's what's frustrating. They claim to be looking out for everyone but how many people do we all know who are upset about how far they hit it? Probably none. How many players need a 7000yd course to challenge them? 1% of players?

 

As was posted, they got so offended at the scores Tiger might shoot that they spent "billions" altering courses, creating the very style of play they now lament. And they continue to use the massive courses because you can also get more attendance. Rather than tree lined courses where setting up grandstands is harder. The USGA and tournament committees are responsible for creating the distance chase, but they blame the equipment companies.

 

Players also train to hit the ball far. They do this because they have to. It's a barrier to entry BECAUSE of the USGA

 

If all food in the world was on 10 foot shelves. In 20 years do you think humans vertical leap will be higher on average? Of course it will, because you can either jump that high, train yourself to jump that high, or you'll die.

 

I couldn't care less for his crocodile tears. And find his lack of touch with the 99% of people that play the game concerning. Because "billions" never needed to be spent for them. And was only spent on the pro game out of protection of a number they saw as holy

 

So much this ^^^^^^

 

I mean look at sports in general. NFL now has linemen that run in the 40 in high 4.5 to 4.6 range, The best shooters in the NBA were not pulling up from 30+ feet 15-20 years ago and making them. I mean I swing around 100mph and outside my WRX buddies I play with it is not very often some random pairing will hit it by me and I am not long by any WRX means. I dont know how rolling back the ball is going to make the average guy enjoy golf more.

 

Yes but in the NFL and NBA those changes have been solely the result of increased strength and size of the players not equipment changes. MLB is a better comparison where we know they softened the balls after the "active ball" era. Plus MLB has not allowed aluminum bats or other equipment changes where science changes the integrity of the game. It only makes sense to limit ball speeds or require the construction of a tournament ball that has more spin. I miss pros ability to shape shots. That was a great part of the game.

[dciccoritti]

Ban Tees.

[North Butte]

Ban Tees.

 

That ought to up Stenson's major total right quick-like.

[Soloman1]

No aluminum bats in MLB.

[MtlJeff]

He's talking about 1% of 1% of players. That's what's frustrating. They claim to be looking out for everyone but how many people do we all know who are upset about how far they hit it? Probably none. How many players need a 7000yd course to challenge them? 1% of players?

 

As was posted, they got so offended at the scores Tiger might shoot that they spent "billions" altering courses, creating the very style of play they now lament. And they continue to use the massive courses because you can also get more attendance. Rather than tree lined courses where setting up grandstands is harder. The USGA and tournament committees are responsible for creating the distance chase, but they blame the equipment companies.

 

Players also train to hit the ball far. They do this because they have to. It's a barrier to entry BECAUSE of the USGA

 

If all food in the world was on 10 foot shelves. In 20 years do you think humans vertical leap will be higher on average? Of course it will, because you can either jump that high, train yourself to jump that high, or you'll die.

 

I couldn't care less for his crocodile tears. And find his lack of touch with the 99% of people that play the game concerning. Because "billions" never needed to be spent for them. And was only spent on the pro game out of protection of a number they saw as holy

 

So much this ^^^^^^

 

I mean look at sports in general. NFL now has linemen that run in the 40 in high 4.5 to 4.6 range, The best shooters in the NBA were not pulling up from 30+ feet 15-20 years ago and making them. I mean I swing around 100mph and outside my WRX buddies I play with it is not very often some random pairing will hit it by me and I am not long by any WRX means. I dont know how rolling back the ball is going to make the average guy enjoy golf more.

 

Yes but in the NFL and NBA those changes have been solely the result of increased strength and size of the players not equipment changes. MLB is a better comparison where we know they softened the balls after the "active ball" era. Plus MLB has not allowed aluminum bats or other equipment changes where science changes the integrity of the game. It only makes sense to limit ball speeds or require the construction of a tournament ball that has more spin. I miss pros ability to shape shots. That was a great part of the game.

 

Equipment has contributed to longer driving distances for sure, but so has increased training. Davis makes it seem like it's just equipment which it's not. In sports like the NFL and NBA, as you say, the players have gotten bigger and stronger.....it's not impossible that golfers have too. It's part of the equation, as much as equipment is.

 

Bubba Watson hit a shot at the Masters that his own caddy said was like "hitting a gap wedge from your front yard to your backyard, around the house" with modern equipment. It's still possible.

 

The USGA takes zero accountability for creating the modern style of play. They select massive 7600yd courses to host majors and then Davis complains that guys hit the ball too far ....and others say guys don't shape shots enough

 

Cmon now, players will do what they are required to. Chambers Bay, Whistling Straights....these are bombers courses.

 

USGA held the US open at Merion and people complained there weren't enough parking spaces.

 

What's important to people?

[Qwiklap]

 

 

The USGA takes zero accountability for creating the modern style of play. They select massive 7600yd courses to host majors and then Davis complains that guys hit the ball too far ....and others say guys don't shape shots enough

 

Cmon now, players will do what they are required to. Chambers Bay, Whistling Straights....these are bombers courses.

 

USGA held the US open at Merion and people complained there weren't enough parking spaces.

 

What's important to people?

 

Agreed -- USGA should concentrate on testing golf with crazy rough and narrow fairways as opposed to 7600yd tracks. That said -- they are trying to make the tour players use driver (which is understandable). Who wants to watch guys hit 2-irons or hybrids off the tee. .... ugh ... I am torn.

 

Long live the British open -- let the wind and stupid steep bunkers int the middle of a fairway create the test.

[Outlier]

I was watching the Wells Fargo in person yesterday, and I gotta say this:

 

While the fairways were cut short, and it had been dry for a while (it rained pretty hard last night, with showers coming and going today)....these guys were FLYING it over 300 regulary, and I'm not saying one or 2...but, I saw a couple FLY over 300 into a good 20 mph headwind. And, hitting 8 irons into greens into that same 20 mph headwind from 170.

 

Does the ball fly too far???

 

ABSOLUTELY!

 

This is a game with which I am unfamiliar

 

And, I truly agree...that the greens speeds becoming faster is about the only way to protect par nowadays.

 

You are also probably unfamiliar with the 8 hrs. a week those guys spend in the gym with their personal fitness trainer....before they go stretch for 45 minutes to hit balls for 5 hrs before they play a practice round.

[b.helts]

My take is this: I just turned 40. I hit the ball further now, with less effort than I did when I was in college. I play maybe once a week and still carry a + handicap. I was considered a long hitter in college. Im now average when compared to the guys I'm playing against.

 

The game is flat out easier than it used to be. Dial back the ball. Dial back the courses we play.

 

And if I didn't have to hit "Enter" 1000 times a day I'd cut off my right pinky finger because I really don't know what to do with it when I take my grip. Be much easier without it.

[farmer]

I gotta be honest. When I watch the pros play anymore I just can't really relate to what they are doing for the most part. IF the distances and the carries they quote on TV are true then their game is so different than mine it's like a different sport.

 

I have never been a long hitter, and I am certainly not as long as I used to be because of some health issues that I am working on. But I used to feel like I was playing the same sport. Watch some of the old golf matches like Shell's and you will see Sam Snead hitting a 7 iron 150 yards. Now a 7 iron goes 190-200 it seems.

 

The obsession with distance and how it is presented on TV has actually diminished my desire to watch. I still like watching the majors and the Ryder Cup, but not that much else really interests me any longer.

I watch the ladies for the same reason. They are way out of my league, but I can relate to hitting a 4 hybrid 170 yards.

[dlygrisse]

He's talking about 1% of 1% of players. That's what's frustrating. They claim to be looking out for everyone but how many people do we all know who are upset about how far they hit it? Probably none. How many players need a 7000yd course to challenge them? 1% of players?

 

As was posted, they got so offended at the scores Tiger might shoot that they spent "billions" altering courses, creating the very style of play they now lament. And they continue to use the massive courses because you can also get more attendance. Rather than tree lined courses where setting up grandstands is harder. The USGA and tournament committees are responsible for creating the distance chase, but they blame the equipment companies.

 

Players also train to hit the ball far. They do this because they have to. It's a barrier to entry BECAUSE of the USGA

 

If all food in the world was on 10 foot shelves. In 20 years do you think humans vertical leap will be higher on average? Of course it will, because you can either jump that high, train yourself to jump that high, or you'll die.

 

I couldn't care less for his crocodile tears. And find his lack of touch with the 99% of people that play the game concerning. Because "billions" never needed to be spent for them. And was only spent on the pro game out of protection of a number they saw as holy

 

So much this ^^^^^^

 

I mean look at sports in general. NFL now has linemen that run in the 40 in high 4.5 to 4.6 range, The best shooters in the NBA were not pulling up from 30+ feet 15-20 years ago and making them. I mean I swing around 100mph and outside my WRX buddies I play with it is not very often some random pairing will hit it by me and I am not long by any WRX means. I dont know how rolling back the ball is going to make the average guy enjoy golf more.

 

Let's say they rolled the ball back so that if you play from 6500 yards, that's a real test for you. If the pros played from 6900 yards, that would be a real test for them. The course super could set up the regular tees at 5800 yards, and that would be plenty long for the average golfer.

 

So, the upshot is, everyone is playing a shorter course. And that takes less maintenance, and also takes less time to play. Pretty soon, new courses would be built at no more than 7,000 yards. That would save 1,000 yards of maintenance, and make golf faster to play.

 

Of course, they could change the ball so that pros would be tested at 6400 yards, you would play 6,000 yards, and me, the average golfer, would play at 5300 yards (the ladies tees). Golf could take less time, and courses would be less expensive.

 

Maybe some courses would stay long, and you would play the present ball on those courses. But other course could be short, and a new "Tier II" ball would be used on shorter courses. If you played a "Tier II" course, you would expect to play it in 3-1/2 hours. This could be a good thing, no?

 

And by the way, they could reduce the size of a driver head for elite players to less than 220 cc - and that would put more skill into the long game.

 

But the average Joe does not need a 7300-7600+ yard course anyways so why build it if there is no chance to host a tour event anyways? Coore/Crenshaw built a track here in 2006 that tips out at 6850 with super wide fairways. I've played it close over 50 times my best round is a +2 73 as anywhere from 1-3 index. Played it with tons of good players no one lights it up. In fact the course record is -6 65 and it has hosted mini tour events state am tourneys etc etc. Quite simply 98% of the time these super long courses do not need to be built and really are just the byproduct of bragging rights and ego's for owners and designers.

 

Talking Stick?

[dlygrisse]

The problem is this.

 

The ball is exponentially longer for the long hitters. Compared to the old tech the pros are hitting it 40 yards longer. The average male maybe 10-20. The higher the clubhead speed the more the face flexes and the more the ProV launches with less spin.

[Sean2]

Many venues cut and roll the fairways. The average carry distance on Tour is in the 270 range, but almost every week you can see how much roll these guys get. Earlier this year I was watching a rain soaked event and many of the drives were in the 265 - 275 range. And, for the average golfer technology hasn't made a huge difference. The average drive is around 215 yards.

 

Wasn't it 220 yards now? And didn't it use to be 200 yards before modern technology? A 10% gain! Not a small difference, a course that measures 6,600 yards now, would play the same (sort of) as a 6,000 yard course used to play, assuming similar gains across the bag.

 

It was either some launch monitor website, or Golf Digest that stated the average drive was 215. And the average 7-iron was 135.

[Sean2]

He's talking about 1% of 1% of players. That's what's frustrating. They claim to be looking out for everyone but how many people do we all know who are upset about how far they hit it? Probably none. How many players need a 7000yd course to challenge them? 1% of players?

 

As was posted, they got so offended at the scores Tiger might shoot that they spent "billions" altering courses, creating the very style of play they now lament. And they continue to use the massive courses because you can also get more attendance. Rather than tree lined courses where setting up grandstands is harder. The USGA and tournament committees are responsible for creating the distance chase, but they blame the equipment companies.

 

Players also train to hit the ball far. They do this because they have to. It's a barrier to entry BECAUSE of the USGA

 

If all food in the world was on 10 foot shelves. In 20 years do you think humans vertical leap will be higher on average? Of course it will, because you can either jump that high, train yourself to jump that high, or you'll die.

 

I couldn't care less for his crocodile tears. And find his lack of touch with the 99% of people that play the game concerning. Because "billions" never needed to be spent for them. And was only spent on the pro game out of protection of a number they saw as holy

 

So much this ^^^^^^

 

I mean look at sports in general. NFL now has linemen that run in the 40 in high 4.5 to 4.6 range, The best shooters in the NBA were not pulling up from 30+ feet 15-20 years ago and making them. I mean I swing around 100mph and outside my WRX buddies I play with it is not very often some random pairing will hit it by me and I am not long by any WRX means. I dont know how rolling back the ball is going to make the average guy enjoy golf more.

 

Yes but in the NFL and NBA those changes have been solely the result of increased strength and size of the players not equipment changes. MLB is a better comparison where we know they softened the balls after the "active ball" era. Plus MLB has not allowed aluminum bats or other equipment changes where science changes the integrity of the game. It only makes sense to limit ball speeds or require the construction of a tournament ball that has more spin. I miss pros ability to shape shots. That was a great part of the game.

 

Equipment has contributed to longer driving distances for sure, but so has increased training. Davis makes it seem like it's just equipment which it's not. In sports like the NFL and NBA, as you say, the players have gotten bigger and stronger.....it's not impossible that golfers have too. It's part of the equation, as much as equipment is.

 

Bubba Watson hit a shot at the Masters that his own caddy said was like "hitting a gap wedge from your front yard to your backyard, around the house" with modern equipment. It's still possible.

 

The USGA takes zero accountability for creating the modern style of play. They select massive 7600yd courses to host majors and then Davis complains that guys hit the ball too far ....and others say guys don't shape shots enough

 

Cmon now, players will do what they are required to. Chambers Bay, Whistling Straights....these are bombers courses.

 

USGA held the US open at Merion and people complained there weren't enough parking spaces.

 

What's important to people?

 

A short course can still pose a challenge to the professional golfer: Merion, as you stated, and Harbor Town are two that come to mind. I find bomb and gouge to be a bit boring. The aforementioned courses doesn't really allow for that. The way old school professionals could make the ball dance was a ballet...today it's twist and shout.

[MtlJeff]

Sean remember the WGC Mexico? That course had 4-5 par 4's under 400yds. It had 2-3 par 3's under 200. Winning score -12.... Tree lined course

 

Pros play that every week this thread doesn't exist

[Sean2]

Sean remember the WGC Mexico? That course had 4-5 par 4's under 400yds. It had 2-3 par 3's under 200. Winning score -12.... Tree lined course

 

Pros play that every week this thread doesn't exist

 

Yes! Now that you mention it I do remember it...and they were playing at elevation.

[bladehunter]

My take is this: I just turned 40. I hit the ball further now, with less effort than I did when I was in college. I play maybe once a week and still carry a + handicap. I was considered a long hitter in college. Im now average when compared to the guys I'm playing against.

 

The game is flat out easier than it used to be. Dial back the ball. Dial back the courses we play.

 

And if I didn't have to hit "Enter" 1000 times a day I'd cut off my right pinky finger because I really don't know what to do with it when I take my grip. Be much easier without it.

 

 

preach..... im 37... and hit it much farther than when i was 20 with a 975d x100 combo.... and like you kids who i play with that grew up on 460cc drivers and todays ball can flat move it ... yet i could stick that 975d in their hands and watch them struggle instantly.. not all would.. but most for sure..

[One_Putt_Blunder]

Talking Stick?

 

Wekopa Saguaro

 

TS south is 7100 par 71

[whr]

He's talking about 1% of 1% of players. That's what's frustrating. They claim to be looking out for everyone but how many people do we all know who are upset about how far they hit it? Probably none. How many players need a 7000yd course to challenge them? 1% of players?

 

As was posted, they got so offended at the scores Tiger might shoot that they spent "billions" altering courses, creating the very style of play they now lament. And they continue to use the massive courses because you can also get more attendance. Rather than tree lined courses where setting up grandstands is harder. The USGA and tournament committees are responsible for creating the distance chase, but they blame the equipment companies.

 

Players also train to hit the ball far. They do this because they have to. It's a barrier to entry BECAUSE of the USGA

 

If all food in the world was on 10 foot shelves. In 20 years do you think humans vertical leap will be higher on average? Of course it will, because you can either jump that high, train yourself to jump that high, or you'll die.

 

I couldn't care less for his crocodile tears. And find his lack of touch with the 99% of people that play the game concerning. Because "billions" never needed to be spent for them. And was only spent on the pro game out of protection of a number they saw as holy

 

So much this ^^^^^^

 

I mean look at sports in general. NFL now has linemen that run in the 40 in high 4.5 to 4.6 range, The best shooters in the NBA were not pulling up from 30+ feet 15-20 years ago and making them. I mean I swing around 100mph and outside my WRX buddies I play with it is not very often some random pairing will hit it by me and I am not long by any WRX means. I dont know how rolling back the ball is going to make the average guy enjoy golf more.

 

Yes but in the NFL and NBA those changes have been solely the result of increased strength and size of the players not equipment changes. MLB is a better comparison where we know they softened the balls after the "active ball" era. Plus MLB has not allowed aluminum bats or other equipment changes where science changes the integrity of the game. It only makes sense to limit ball speeds or require the construction of a tournament ball that has more spin. I miss pros ability to shape shots. That was a great part of the game.

 

Equipment has contributed to longer driving distances for sure, but so has increased training. Davis makes it seem like it's just equipment which it's not. In sports like the NFL and NBA, as you say, the players have gotten bigger and stronger.....it's not impossible that golfers have too. It's part of the equation, as much as equipment is.

 

Bubba Watson hit a shot at the Masters that his own caddy said was like "hitting a gap wedge from your front yard to your backyard, around the house" with modern equipment. It's still possible.

 

The USGA takes zero accountability for creating the modern style of play. They select massive 7600yd courses to host majors and then Davis complains that guys hit the ball too far ....and others say guys don't shape shots enough

 

Cmon now, players will do what they are required to. Chambers Bay, Whistling Straights....these are bombers courses.

 

USGA held the US open at Merion and people complained there weren't enough parking spaces.

 

What's important to people?

 

$$$$$$$$ and ratings.

[Edaw68]

Count me in the camp that doesn't care what the pros shoot. 20 or 30 under, who cares. They're supposed to be good.

 

I also think that if the USGA does roll back the ball, they have a chance of creating their own death. One or two major manufacturers keeping a current "normal" ball line available would make a fortune. So many players would keep playing the "illegal" ball and not care about the USGA saying it's illegal. That starts the slippery slope for the USGA to lose credibility to create/maintain the rules.

[caniac6]

I am almost 63, and not a single guy I play with complains about hitting the ball too long.

[Itsjustagame]

I live in Maine and as far as I know not 1 golf course has been alternated or lengthened to address improved equipment. In fact there are probably just a handful in all of New England. There are some built in the last 20 years that are 7,000+ yards, but most courses here are under 6500 yards and every bit as challenging as 99% of the people who play them need.

Equipment gains have probably had a significant benefit for less than 5% of the golfing population when it comes to scoring. Even the best, longest, most forgiving equipment won't magically make you a single digit handicap.

The pros in any sport play a game that doesn't relate to amateurs. If that bothers you better turn off the TV.

[caniac6]

I really can't relate to professional sports at any level. The guy are getting bigger, stronger,and faster. I'm getting smaller,weaker,and slower.

[Lodestone]

I am almost 63, and not a single guy I play with complains about hitting the ball too long.

 

Which leads me to my fundamental argument against the likes of Mike Davis. I have one word: "Fun"....the game is supposed to be fun, at least for the 99.9% of the players who are not trying to get rich playing it.

I guarantee you that if you made balls and clubs that took 10% or 20% of the length away from the driver, there would be a precipitous drop in amateur play, simply because it would not be as much FUN.

 

The USGA, Augusta, and the R&A know how to protect par for the big boys:

 

#1: you impose BIG penalties for missing narrow fairways. You wanna swing hard and hit it 350? Fine. You better hit the fairway unless you have a shot out of 6 inch rough.

[tannyhoban]

If only restricted balls were available I'd quit playing. I'd hurt myself swinging at a mush ball.

[BlackDiamondPar5]

I'm in full agreement with the series of posts above me. This is also why I've say many times that the USGA is completely out of touch with the average avid golfer. Those avid golfers are the backbone of golf in America and the usga doesn't represent their best interests. Just like their useless quest for a global handicap system that we don't need either.

[puttingmatt]

Hindsight is always 20/20 Mike Davis........

 

Its OK, I do not think anyone wants to go back to how it used to be.......

[bunter101]

It's now too late to roll back. Bringing in limiting regulations so neither ball nor Drivers/woods/hybrids have actual distance gains is what they should now be looking at.

[gvogel]

The problem is this.

 

The ball is exponentially longer for the long hitters. Compared to the old tech the pros are hitting it 40 yards longer. The average male maybe 10-20. The higher the clubhead speed the more the face flexes and the more the ProV launches with less spin.

 

You are absolutely right. Wouldn't it be better for the game if the elite players had to use drivers with a COR of what persimmon was? The rest of us could use the modern driver, since we don't get much benefit anyway.

 

And there could be 3 tiers of balls. Tier I - the modern ball. Tier II - a 10% reduced distance ball for elite players playing shorter courses. This ball could be used at Augusta, instead of lengthening the course again. And a Tier III ball for elite players playing at the oldest courses, such as Myopia Hunt at 6,300 yards.

 

So you say, why penalize elite players? I say, it's not a penalty if they are all playing with the same type of equipment. If I am supporting pro golf by watching it on TV, going to tournaments, and playing over-priced equipment because of their endorsement contracts, I want to see the pros have to hit long irons on par 4's more often.

 

By the way, I think that it is great that the modern, athletic golfer is hitting the ball farther than their ancestors. They should, but not because of advances in equipment.