Could a Scratch Golfer break 85 at Augusta?

[widow-maker]

Not trying to stir the pot more as its getting heated but are the guys who are saying "a scratch wouldnt shoot 85" actually scratch?

 

From following this whole thread and commenting a bit I get the feeling that many of the scratch guys believe they could do it but the guys who dont think it could happen are higher caps?

 

I mean I side with Obee on this one. No cameras. No galleries. No pressure. Even as a non-scratch 2 capper I don't see the problem?

 

Its not like you forget to putt. Sure they are the toughest, fastest greens etc. But I'm not gonna have 40 putts. There is no OB and Augusta is admittedly forgiving from the tee compared to many courses good players play regularly this is just common fact. Minimal rough. The course rating says a scratch should get it done. We all know the holes better than any other course in the world.

 

Just a vibe I'm getting. Mid Cappers saying no and legit scratch guys believing in their own ability to get the job done. Its an 85. Not a 72.

 

To add to your well thought out response, even though i disagree, All scratches are not equal. I have students who are true scratches and play tough courses from the tips 7000+ and some scratches who play 6600 yard courses and are pushed to the limit if they speed up greens and grow rough at their course.

Obee doesnt hot it fr enough or high enough to sniff 85 at augusta despite his self belief. other tourney scracthes i know would fare better and might hover in the the low 80s high 70s as they hit it 275+ and have great to good short games and play TPC style tough courses with fast greens.

 

Sniff 85?!?!

 

God you guys absolutely kill me.

 

What does "not sniff" mean? 89? 91? 106?

 

I also don't hit it long enough to shoot 78 at Torrey from 7500. But I did.

 

Regarding golf course types and where people play most: My home course is rated 75.7/146.

 

From what tees do you play? whats the yardage ? do you walk or ride? green speed day to day? see these are variables when considering OPs question

 

Also not sniff for me means youd struggle to hit that #.thats my belief with the limitations in your game that you described. Again nothing personal, just having a discusson. if you dont hit it 275 consistently there are no easy pars there(augusta).

Obee would be hitting wedges into all of the par 5's and holes 3, 6, 12, and 16 are easily in his wheelhouse. That leaves 9 par 4's that are in the 450-500 range and the long par 3 4th. I would think he'd be able to reach some of those depending on his tee shots, but if not he could be just off the front edge. I would assume that with his lack of length, he probably is very good with his fairway woods and hybrids and chipping and putting is probably a strength. He could very easily make pars on 5 of those 10 long par 4's by either reaching the greens in 2 or chipping it close from just off the front of the greens. He's probably not going to deal with much of the trouble over the greens or really to the sides of those greens. And who's to say that he doesn't make a birdie or two on the par 5's or 3's? The big problem would be the greens but his home course has fast greens and he's played enough tournament golf that I'm sure he's seen his share of undulated greens, even if not as plentiful as at Augusta. I don't think the greens would scare him away as much as it might some guys who have never seen anything like it. It wouldn't be out of the question that he make between 9-12 pars or so, but who knows if or how many "other" he may have on the card. To just say that he couldn't do it without ever having seen him play is a bit of an overreach to me.

[lowheel]

im a +4.5 and play on several mini tours and partially exempt on the Mckenzie tour

 

Wow!

 

Nicely done that is rarified air man.

 

What do you shoot in this scenario you figure?

 

I'm Canadian so I follow the Mckenzie pretty closely. Some legit sticks out there. I've played with a couple. (Or gotten spanked by a couple haha)

 

In the end, I don't really qualify for this discussion as I'm a 2.6 and I would say a medium tourney tested player. I've shot my differential plenty but never gone really low in a tourney.

 

I just don't think there is a course out there where a real scratch couldnt scrape it around and post a target 85 under zero pressure. We arent talking about a low score. Or a medium score. If the goal was 85 for this exercise.

 

Dont care about length, green speed, undulations, side hill lies. If a guy has had his share of tourney golf he's seen that stuff a bunch. He's probably played 7400 or close. I really think that number is just a little too high. Its 13 FIVES and 5 FOURS. Plan it out and make it happen, LOL.

 

Lol, Im scoring better but playing worse! It changes at that level very easily.I had 2 rough weeks in july last year where i made cuts but my 8 bad rounds dropped 1.4 off that. Back to back 77s on back to back 3rd and 4th rounds in back to back weeks.

Mckenzie tour is loaded with talent. you get lapped in you shoot par -1 at most venues. the monday qualifiers are equally ridiculous.

 

As for how i would do there in this scenario having 20+ years a competitive golf, i would definitely score better today then back in 97-98 but its tough to say. With these stipulations the OP put forward and being honest with myself in sunday conditions mentally i would put my par at 76 to give me some breathing room. I believe my length and shot shape would allow me to reach 3 of the 4 par 5s and maybe thats the cushion i would need to hover around there.

Having been super lucky to attend several masters, the place in person changes how you view it. TV doesnt do the elevation changes or sidehill lies justice. Im sure like any pro if you gave me 10-20+ practice rounds that # changes but Im being honest with myself with OPs question and stipulations. i love fast greens and my strength is my lag putting. I hit the apex of my putts break 9 times out of 10 which means i dont make them often but rarely leave knee knockers. maybe that would serve me well. I just believe when people see that place in person the green slopes are mesmerizing and you realize that each green has a 6 by 6 landing areas or youre dead.

[Mcgeeno]

I think we're really close to agreeing here in all honesty...

 

I mean I'd lay it out just like you. I have no arguments there give or take a couple shots.

 

Add a 6 or two if you want with a bad 3 putt and a dunked water ball. Not knowing Augusta greens will add some putts. Everyone in this thread agrees but we're talking 85 not making the cut in the Masters with millions watching. Just the course and your ball. You put your number at 76 but a legit scratch (This might be getting misunderstood) is not getting to 85?

 

I'll add a 3 on a par 3 from one nice long iron or hybrid and a 3 on a par 4 down the stretch because he's a really good player and can probably chop one putt in the hole from mid range? Reasonable I think. So some 6's some 3's and a bunch of 4s and 5s.

 

Boom done!

 

I think we both agree it would be a blast to see. I just go back to watching Curry shoot tourney 74s and a guy like Roethlisberger shooting an 81 at a US Open challenge(Bethpage Black) they did. He was a 3 capper at the time. Keep it in play (We would both agree not hard at Augusta?) and don't make more than 3 sixes.

[lowheel]

Not trying to stir the pot more as its getting heated but are the guys who are saying "a scratch wouldnt shoot 85" actually scratch?

 

From following this whole thread and commenting a bit I get the feeling that many of the scratch guys believe they could do it but the guys who dont think it could happen are higher caps?

 

I mean I side with Obee on this one. No cameras. No galleries. No pressure. Even as a non-scratch 2 capper I don't see the problem?

 

Its not like you forget to putt. Sure they are the toughest, fastest greens etc. But I'm not gonna have 40 putts. There is no OB and Augusta is admittedly forgiving from the tee compared to many courses good players play regularly this is just common fact. Minimal rough. The course rating says a scratch should get it done. We all know the holes better than any other course in the world.

 

Just a vibe I'm getting. Mid Cappers saying no and legit scratch guys believing in their own ability to get the job done. Its an 85. Not a 72.

 

To add to your well thought out response, even though i disagree, All scratches are not equal. I have students who are true scratches and play tough courses from the tips 7000+ and some scratches who play 6600 yard courses and are pushed to the limit if they speed up greens and grow rough at their course.

Obee doesnt hot it fr enough or high enough to sniff 85 at augusta despite his self belief. other tourney scracthes i know would fare better and might hover in the the low 80s high 70s as they hit it 275+ and have great to good short games and play TPC style tough courses with fast greens.

 

Sniff 85?!?!

 

God you guys absolutely kill me.

 

What does "not sniff" mean? 89? 91? 106?

 

I also don't hit it long enough to shoot 78 at Torrey from 7500. But I did.

 

Regarding golf course types and where people play most: My home course is rated 75.7/146.

 

From what tees do you play? whats the yardage ? do you walk or ride? green speed day to day? see these are variables when considering OPs question

 

Also not sniff for me means youd struggle to hit that #.thats my belief with the limitations in your game that you described. Again nothing personal, just having a discusson. if you dont hit it 275 consistently there are no easy pars there(augusta).

Obee would be hitting wedges into all of the par 5's and holes 3, 6, 12, and 16 are easily in his wheelhouse. That leaves 9 par 4's that are in the 450-500 range and the long par 3 4th. I would think he'd be able to reach some of those depending on his tee shots, but if not he could be just off the front edge. I would assume that with his lack of length, he probably is very good with his fairway woods and hybrids and chipping and putting is probably a strength. He could very easily make pars on 5 of those 10 long par 4's by either reaching the greens in 2 or chipping it close from just off the front of the greens. He's probably not going to deal with much of the trouble over the greens or really to the sides of those greens. And who's to say that he doesn't make a birdie or two on the par 5's or 3's? The big problem would be the greens but his home course has fast greens and he's played enough tournament golf that I'm sure he's seen his share of undulated greens, even if not as plentiful as at Augusta. I don't think the greens would scare him away as much as it might some guys who have never seen anything like it. It wouldn't be out of the question that he make between 9-12 pars or so, but who knows if or how many "other" he may have on the card. To just say that he couldn't do it without ever having seen him play is a bit of an overreach to me.

 

I appreciate your response and your very optimistic outlook. The reason i gave for not believing he could do so is simple. He honestly stated that he carries the ball 235 off the tee and based on the OPs stipulations( sunday conditions/back tees and so on) I reasoned he couldnt get it done. Maybe like he himself said, 15 years ago hed have a better crack at it without his back issues and lack of carry length.

Just as an example the first hole at augusta requires 275 to clear the corner so you can see the elevated green. the 4th is a 250 yard par 3 that roughly plays 242 with OB past the green no bail outs. The 13th and 15th holes have the toughest wedge shots of any par 5s when you lay up. both those greens are 3 putted all the time not to mention the water. the 15th hole from 125 to 75 yards the fairway is sloped 35* downhill with the grass grain growing against you. the 2nd hole green is the same. Its a tough undertaking when you cant hit it high and cant hit it at least 275. just my 2 cents

[lowheel]

I think we're really close to agreeing here in all honesty...

 

I mean I'd lay it out just like you. I have no arguments there give or take a couple shots.

 

Add a 6 or two if you want with a bad 3 putt and a dunked water ball. Not knowing Augusta greens will add some putts. Everyone in this thread agrees but we're talking 85 not making the cut in the Masters with millions watching. Just the course and your ball. You put your number at 76 but a legit scratch (This might be getting misunderstood) is not getting to 85?

 

I'll add a 3 on a par 3 from one nice long iron or hybrid and a 3 on a par 4 down the stretch because he's a really good player and can probably chop one putt in the hole from mid range? Reasonable I think. So some 6's some 3's and a bunch of 4s and 5s.

 

Boom done!

 

I think we both agree it would be a blast to see. I just go back to watching Curry shoot tourney 74s and a guy like Roethlisberger shooting an 81 at a US Open challenge(Bethpage Black) they did. He was a 3 capper at the time. Keep it in play (We would both agree not hard at Augusta?) and don't make more than 3 sixes.

 

I agree with you on almost everything and you put it in better words than i could have. My only caveat is what kind of scratch. I believe there are very, very few scratches who can accomplish this feat based on the stipulations by the OP.

[Mcgeeno]

True depends on the player.

 

But reasonable no doubt

 

85 not 78.

 

I'd be arguing with you not against you at that number sight unseen at Augusta.

[kg92lefty]

Obee

 

You feel the need to defend yourself and thats cool but i stick by my statement. I did q school there years ago. That course was getting torched with 62s and 63s in TOURNAMENT CONDITIONS. you claim to have averaged 74.5 in NON TOURNAMENT CONDITIONS. See the problem? thats 12 shots right there and yes A player of Rickies caliber would dust you everyday in that situation by 12+. 63 is not even a crazy # for that place.

 

So what'd you shoot Mr +4.5 touring pro partially exempt in canada (which so are a billion other people). 260? 265? If you hit it so far and putt so good why are you on your computer right now.

[deegestar]

Not to drag this discussion on...but..

I am a former PGA Professional who worked at a very prominent Club in the Atlanta area awhile. After a solid run as a collegiate golfer and some time on multiple mini-tours with decent results I was considered an above average player as a club pro. I had a couple of members who were also members at ANGC and every other year or so I would get an offer to play the course with them. The member would also bring some other players who were on the same level (and usually better) than I was at the time.

There is such an intimidation factor on those grounds, a feeling that is hard to play around sometimes and I really never didn't have it when I stepped on the first tee. Of the five times that I played the course I never broke 80, nor did any of my playing partners. My best score was an 81 from the Tournament tees the fourth time I played there, this after I had won a Georgia PGA Section event with consecutive 66's the week before. One of the other pro's who played with us the last time I played the course shot an 82, the next week he shot a 63 at East Lake C.C.(Home of the tour Championship).

Like others have said before, it's not the tee to green that makes the course difficult ...it is the greens! Even hitting greens in regulation and being close to the pin can lead to bogeys and doubles. I've been fortunate to have played many great courses, even really tough major tournament venues, but nothing compares to Augusta National.

[TheCityGame]

a scratch at 6500/6600 yard course is a 5+ at 7100+ Yard course.

this makes me wonder if you know what "scratch" means.

 

I'm late responding to this for a reason...went up to Bethpage Black this weekend. With this thread in mind, we played from the posts... Middle of the back box on every hole no matter where the tees were actually set. (225 yard par 3. Couple of 4s over 500. 603 yard par 5)

 

Any guesses on scores? Courses rated at 78.1/152. Anyone think Augusta is tougher than that? Anyone who has seen the Black rough and bunkers and fescue up close, that is?

 

Keep in mind, this was after sleeping in cars, drinking till midnight and getting up at 5 am. Walking the Black without caddies. We've all played it once or twice.

 

We were two 2's and a 5. One of the 2s basically doesn't feel comfortable with a 250 carry. One hits it about 3 bills.

[jmvargas]

a scratch at 6500/6600 yard course is a 5+ at 7100+ Yard course.

this makes me wonder if you know what "scratch" means.

 

I'm late responding to this for a reason...went up to Bethpage Black this weekend. With this thread in mind, we played from the posts... Middle of the back box on every hole no matter where the tees were actually set. (225 yard par 3. Couple of 4s over 500. 603 yard par 5)

 

Any guesses on scores? Courses rated at 78.1/152. Anyone think Augusta is tougher than that? Anyone who has seen the Black rough and bunkers and fescue up close, that is?

 

Keep in mind, this was after sleeping in cars, drinking till midnight and getting up at 5 am. Walking the Black without caddies. We've all played it once or twice.

 

We were two 2's and a 5. One of the 2s basically doesn't feel comfortable with a 250 carry. One hits it about 3 bills.

 

 

i'm guessing all broke 90 and with a low below 85..

[TheCityGame]

i'm guessing all broke 90 and with a low below 85..

That's a pretty good guess.

 

Take from this what you guys will about a scratch playing Augusta, but it's the only thing in my experience that could possibly compare. Bethpage's greens are definitely easier than Augusta's (not that I've played Augusta). But, I don't know of many places at Augusta where I miss a fairway by 8 yards, and I need to hit a wedge through hay just to get back in play, and there's a lot more greens at Augusta where you can run the ball up if you're still 215 out after a good drive on a par 4.

 

We were 84, 87, 89. Long hitting 2 was low man, then me, then the 5. For the record, those went into handicap differentials as like 3, 6, 8. Putting up a 6 differential feels pretty bad for me these days.

 

I shot 87 with no warm up after starting with five consecutive doubles -- you're free to believe when I say I was shaking off some cobwebs, or not. But, I finished the front par, bogey, par, bogey, then shot 39 on the back with two birdies. Yardage on the card for the back is 3790 and I am NOT a bomber. I had 4W into three of the par 3's. Furthermore, like someone said above, if the player is "trying to break 85", that might be a bit different. And breaking 85 wasn't my goal. . .for one, we were playing a match so there were some "match play shots". For two, there were some ill-advised "I didn't come here to lay up" shots.

 

Give a scratch golfer even a 1 hour warm up before that and he breaks 85 all the time. Me and the other guy break 85 over 50% of the time in good conditions from those tees. I don't know if a 250-yard driving scratch with great accuracy has a better chance there than a 300-yard driving scratch with OK accuracy. That's not a place you want to miss the fairway. It's also not a place you want to come into a green from 210 very often.

 

Doesn't change my opinion of a scratch breaking 85 at Augusta because I thought he could before, and I still think he can.

 

The other guy and I have both put up some very good scores from the "Saturday Blues" at Bethpage in the past. It was considerably harder from 400 or so more yards, but I also didn't think either of us played as well as we have before.

[jmvargas]

i played the Red at Bethpage in July 2002 only because we had to wait 4 hours to tee off from the Blacks..

 

it was only 3 weeks after the US Open and shot an 83 from the members tees using borrowed clubs..

 

i was 56 then--way past my prime--and about 9 hdcp but could still carry 220yds+ on my drives..

 

i still wish i could have played the Black with MY clubs but never got the chance ..

[lowheel]

Not to drag this discussion on...but..

I am a former PGA Professional who worked at a very prominent Club in the Atlanta area for the better part of a decade. After a solid run as a collegiate golfer and some time on multiple mini-tours with decent results I was considered an above average player as a club pro. I had a couple of members who were also members at ANGC and every other year or so I would get an offer to play the course with them. The member would also bring some other players who were on the same level (and usually better) than I was at the time.

There is such an intimidation factor on those grounds, a feeling that is hard to play around sometimes and I really never didn't have it when I stepped on the first tee. Of the five times that I played the course I never broke 80, nor did any of my playing partners. My best score was an 81 from the Tournament tees the fourth time I played there, this after I had won a Georgia PGA Section event with consecutive 66's the week before. One of the other pro's who played with us the last time I played the course shot an 82, the next week he shot a 63 at East Lake C.C.(Home of the tour Championship).

Like others have said before, it's not the tee to green that makes the course difficult ...it is the greens! Even hitting greens in regulation and being close to the pin can lead to bogeys and doubles. I've been fortunate to have played many great courses, even really tough major tournament venues, but nothing compares to Augusta National.

 

Thanks for sharing. Such an honest and detailed self examination of exactly what its like there. I particularly agree with your final sentence as this course is just that special in difficulty despite alot of naysayers in the thread.

[the bishop]

Not to drag this discussion on...but..

I am a former PGA Professional who worked at a very prominent Club in the Atlanta area for the better part of a decade. After a solid run as a collegiate golfer and some time on multiple mini-tours with decent results I was considered an above average player as a club pro. I had a couple of members who were also members at ANGC and every other year or so I would get an offer to play the course with them. The member would also bring some other players who were on the same level (and usually better) than I was at the time.

There is such an intimidation factor on those grounds, a feeling that is hard to play around sometimes and I really never didn't have it when I stepped on the first tee. Of the five times that I played the course I never broke 80, nor did any of my playing partners. My best score was an 81 from the Tournament tees the fourth time I played there, this after I had won a Georgia PGA Section event with consecutive 66's the week before. One of the other pro's who played with us the last time I played the course shot an 82, the next week he shot a 63 at East Lake C.C.(Home of the tour Championship).

Like others have said before, it's not the tee to green that makes the course difficult ...it is the greens! Even hitting greens in regulation and being close to the pin can lead to bogeys and doubles. I've been fortunate to have played many great courses, even really tough major tournament venues, but nothing compares to Augusta National.

 

Thanks for sharing. Such an honest and detailed self examination of exactly what its like there. I particularly agree with your final sentence as this course is just that special in difficulty despite alot of naysayers in the thread.

Agreed. And under the OP's conditions I say it would be a very tall task. You get one shot under those conditions - COULD it be done? Yes. Is it likely? No.

[lowheel]

a scratch at 6500/6600 yard course is a 5+ at 7100+ Yard course.

this makes me wonder if you know what "scratch" means.

 

I'm late responding to this for a reason...went up to Bethpage Black this weekend. With this thread in mind, we played from the posts... Middle of the back box on every hole no matter where the tees were actually set. (225 yard par 3. Couple of 4s over 500. 603 yard par 5)

 

Any guesses on scores? Courses rated at 78.1/152. Anyone think Augusta is tougher than that? Anyone who has seen the Black rough and bunkers and fescue up close, that is?

 

Keep in mind, this was after sleeping in cars, drinking till midnight and getting up at 5 am. Walking the Black without caddies. We've all played it once or twice.

 

We were two 2's and a 5. One of the 2s basically doesn't feel comfortable with a 250 carry. One hits it about 3 bills.

 

Thanks for sharing and ill overlook your jab about actually knowing what a scratch is to keep the convo civil and moving forward.

 

I have played bethpage black give or take 13 times since 1999 everytime from the back and everytime with local pga club pros or like me mini tour/ nationwide/web.com guys. it is when in tourney shape a beast akin to Oakmont without the the insane green complexes on every single green.

You played it in normal conditions and barely scraped 90. No insane rough or speed on greens. Im not denigrating you or your pals. playing from the back with limited distance is exhausting especially since some of the carries required just to get to a few a fairways are 255+ from the back. i just played there in late june. One of my favorite places ever however its not augusta. i would easily add 4-8 strokes each if you played augusta. thats not a knock just my opinion. If you attend a masters or win the lottery and play augusta one day i believe you will see it this way. its video game insanity difficult. Remember were discussing the scenario presented by the OP, Sunday tournament condition back tees.

[lowheel]

Not to drag this discussion on...but..

I am a former PGA Professional who worked at a very prominent Club in the Atlanta area for the better part of a decade. After a solid run as a collegiate golfer and some time on multiple mini-tours with decent results I was considered an above average player as a club pro. I had a couple of members who were also members at ANGC and every other year or so I would get an offer to play the course with them. The member would also bring some other players who were on the same level (and usually better) than I was at the time.

There is such an intimidation factor on those grounds, a feeling that is hard to play around sometimes and I really never didn't have it when I stepped on the first tee. Of the five times that I played the course I never broke 80, nor did any of my playing partners. My best score was an 81 from the Tournament tees the fourth time I played there, this after I had won a Georgia PGA Section event with consecutive 66's the week before. One of the other pro's who played with us the last time I played the course shot an 82, the next week he shot a 63 at East Lake C.C.(Home of the tour Championship).

Like others have said before, it's not the tee to green that makes the course difficult ...it is the greens! Even hitting greens in regulation and being close to the pin can lead to bogeys and doubles. I've been fortunate to have played many great courses, even really tough major tournament venues, but nothing compares to Augusta National.

 

Thanks for sharing. Such an honest and detailed self examination of exactly what its like there. I particularly agree with your final sentence as this course is just that special in difficulty despite alot of naysayers in the thread.

Agreed. And under the OP's conditions I say it would be a very tall task. You get one shot under those conditions - COULD it be done? Yes. Is it likely? No.

 

yes, thats the real issue, the OPs conditions but the thread got derailed a little but its a fun exercise for sure. If vegas would put odds on this the 85 & over would get 99% of the money.

[tw_focus]

I have nearly broken 90 at Augusta and I have never broken 80 at any course, so in my mind the course is about +10 strokes from a normal muni. That's the normal / non-masters config from the white tees, they juice the course for The Masters and it plays much tougher. So yes, a scratch golfer should break 85 and would break 80 on a good day.

[lowheel]

i played the Red at Bethpage in July 2002 only because we had to wait 4 hours to tee off from the Blacks..

 

it was only 3 weeks after the US Open and shot an 83 from the members tees using borrowed clubs..

 

i was 56 then--way past my prime--and about 9 hdcp but could still carry 220yds+ on my drives..

 

i still wish i could have played the Black with MY clubs but never got the chance ..

 

A fun question/game would be doing a WITB from 2002 on your rental set!!

[Obee]

a scratch at 6500/6600 yard course is a 5+ at 7100+ Yard course.

this makes me wonder if you know what "scratch" means.

 

I'm late responding to this for a reason...went up to Bethpage Black this weekend. With this thread in mind, we played from the posts... Middle of the back box on every hole no matter where the tees were actually set. (225 yard par 3. Couple of 4s over 500. 603 yard par 5)

 

Any guesses on scores? Courses rated at 78.1/152. Anyone think Augusta is tougher than that? Anyone who has seen the Black rough and bunkers and fescue up close, that is?

 

Keep in mind, this was after sleeping in cars, drinking till midnight and getting up at 5 am. Walking the Black without caddies. We've all played it once or twice.

 

We were two 2's and a 5. One of the 2s basically doesn't feel comfortable with a 250 carry. One hits it about 3 bills.

 

Thanks for sharing and ill overlook your jab about actually knowing what a scratch is to keep the convo civil and moving forward.

 

I have played bethpage black give or take 13 times since 1999 everytime from the back and everytime with local pga club pros or like me mini tour/ nationwide/web.com guys. it is when in tourney shape a beast akin to Oakmont without the the insane green complexes on every single green.

You played it in normal conditions and barely scraped 90. No insane rough or speed on greens. Im not denigrating you or your pals. playing from the back with limited difference is exhausting especially since some of the carries required just to get to a few a fairways are 255+ from the back. i just played there in late june. One of my favorite places ever however its not augusta. i would easily add 4-8 strokes each if you played augusta. thats not a knock just my opinion. If you attend a masters or win the lottery and play augusta one day i believe you will see it this way. its video game insanity difficult. Remember were discussing the scenario presented by the OP, Sunday tournament condition back tees.

 

What about the dozen or more guys that I know (pros and top ams alike) that have played Augusta from the tips (several in the Masters). Would their experiences add anything to this discussion for you?

[lowheel]

i'm guessing all broke 90 and with a low below 85..

That's a pretty good guess.

 

Take from this what you guys will about a scratch playing Augusta, but it's the only thing in my experience that could possibly compare. Bethpage's greens are definitely easier than Augusta's (not that I've played Augusta). But, I don't know of many places at Augusta where I miss a fairway by 8 yards, and I need to hit a wedge through hay just to get back in play, and there's a lot more greens at Augusta where you can run the ball up if you're still 215 out after a good drive on a par 4.

 

We were 84, 87, 89. Long hitting 2 was low man, then me, then the 5. For the record, those went into handicap differentials as like 3, 6, 8. Putting up a 6 differential feels pretty bad for me these days.

 

I shot 87 with no warm up after starting with five consecutive doubles -- you're free to believe when I say I was shaking off some cobwebs, or not. But, I finished the front par, bogey, par, bogey, then shot 39 on the back with two birdies. Yardage on the card for the back is 3790 and I am NOT a bomber. I had 4W into three of the par 3's. Furthermore, like someone said above, if the player is "trying to break 85", that might be a bit different. And breaking 85 wasn't my goal. . .for one, we were playing a match so there were some "match play shots". For two, there were some ill-advised "I didn't come here to lay up" shots.

 

Give a scratch golfer even a 1 hour warm up before that and he breaks 85 all the time. Me and the other guy break 85 over 50% of the time in good conditions from those tees. I don't know if a 250-yard driving scratch with great accuracy has a better chance there than a 300-yard driving scratch with OK accuracy. That's not a place you want to miss the fairway. It's also not a place you want to come into a green from 210 very often.

 

Doesn't change my opinion of a scratch breaking 85 at Augusta because I thought he could before, and I still think he can.

 

The other guy and I have both put up some very good scores from the "Saturday Blues" at Bethpage in the past. It was considerably harder from 400 or so more yards, but I also didn't think either of us played as well as we have before.

 

Just to clarify are you referring to the OPs conditions being met? You believe any scratch breaks 85 50% of the time in that scenario at augusta? just looking for clarity thanks

[lowheel]

a scratch at 6500/6600 yard course is a 5+ at 7100+ Yard course.

this makes me wonder if you know what "scratch" means.

 

I'm late responding to this for a reason...went up to Bethpage Black this weekend. With this thread in mind, we played from the posts... Middle of the back box on every hole no matter where the tees were actually set. (225 yard par 3. Couple of 4s over 500. 603 yard par 5)

 

Any guesses on scores? Courses rated at 78.1/152. Anyone think Augusta is tougher than that? Anyone who has seen the Black rough and bunkers and fescue up close, that is?

 

Keep in mind, this was after sleeping in cars, drinking till midnight and getting up at 5 am. Walking the Black without caddies. We've all played it once or twice.

 

We were two 2's and a 5. One of the 2s basically doesn't feel comfortable with a 250 carry. One hits it about 3 bills.

 

Thanks for sharing and ill overlook your jab about actually knowing what a scratch is to keep the convo civil and moving forward.

 

I have played bethpage black give or take 13 times since 1999 everytime from the back and everytime with local pga club pros or like me mini tour/ nationwide/web.com guys. it is when in tourney shape a beast akin to Oakmont without the the insane green complexes on every single green.

You played it in normal conditions and barely scraped 90. No insane rough or speed on greens. Im not denigrating you or your pals. playing from the back with limited difference is exhausting especially since some of the carries required just to get to a few a fairways are 255+ from the back. i just played there in late june. One of my favorite places ever however its not augusta. i would easily add 4-8 strokes each if you played augusta. thats not a knock just my opinion. If you attend a masters or win the lottery and play augusta one day i believe you will see it this way. its video game insanity difficult. Remember were discussing the scenario presented by the OP, Sunday tournament condition back tees.

 

What about the dozen or more guys that I know (pros and top ams alike) that have played Augusta from the tips (several in the Masters). Would their experiences add anything to this discussion for you?

 

I guess this is a rhetorical name dropping question? I know equal amounts of guys who have played in masters, US opens and so on dating back to the 80s however my opinion is exactly that, mine. Obee i think i understand where you stand on this question and your opinion is clear. The thing youre not discussing however and ive asked many times previously is with all the OPs conditions that you believe as a scratch you break 85 no problem? if thats what you believe cool but you havent stated it but if you did and i missed it then my apologies. lets focus on the actual question

[CallawayLefty]

I think the scratch breaks 85 often in that circumstance. We're talking about 85, not 75. I think the average scratch has no shot at 75 and could only break 80 in rare circumstances. I also think it's not very likely that they'll shoot 90. it's not like they just completely forget how to make the occasional par. All of the par 5s remain par holes with reasonable chances to at least have a look at birdie. There's tons of doubles out there for sure (or worse) but really I just think they'd make a lot of bogeys from the difficulty of the short game aspects and getting approaches to stop close to the hole. If they miss a green it's an unlikely par. But how unlikely? Do they go from 45% up and down to 0%? If they have to lay up or chip out an approach are they really going to make double off their follow up wedge every time?

 

I think it would play as a par 81 for your average scratch. And your average scratch is going to average 3 to 4 over par or thereabouts.

 

I know no one who has played Augusta. I have been to the Masters though. I am a scratch golfer.

 

Just my 2 cents.

[CallawayLefty]

And one question for low heel - you seem like a player that has been around the block...if you think the scratch has no chance at 85, then what do you think they'd shoot? I'm talking your normal club scratch. Shoots par sometimes, better sometimes, lots of mid 70s. A legit guy. Not a scratch who shoots 83 in every tournament.

[jmvargas]

i played the Red at Bethpage in July 2002 only because we had to wait 4 hours to tee off from the Blacks..

 

it was only 3 weeks after the US Open and shot an 83 from the members tees using borrowed clubs..

 

i was 56 then--way past my prime--and about 9 hdcp but could still carry 220yds+ on my drives..

 

i still wish i could have played the Black with MY clubs but never got the chance ..

 

A fun question/game would be doing a WITB from 2002 on your rental set!!

 

they were actually my nephew's set but the grips were too big for my cadet small hands and a swingweight a D4 vs my normal C9/D0...

 

they were older Callaways with the usual 1/3/5 woods and irons 3-Lw...and the putter was a Ping which was ok..the wedges too..

 

they also had S flex vs my normal R's..

[lowheel]

i played the Red at Bethpage in July 2002 only because we had to wait 4 hours to tee off from the Blacks..

 

it was only 3 weeks after the US Open and shot an 83 from the members tees using borrowed clubs..

 

i was 56 then--way past my prime--and about 9 hdcp but could still carry 220yds+ on my drives..

 

i still wish i could have played the Black with MY clubs but never got the chance ..

 

A fun question/game would be doing a WITB from 2002 on your rental set!!

 

they were actually my nephew's set but the grips were too big for my cadet small hands and a swingweight a D4 vs my normal C9/D0...

 

they were older Callaways with the usual 1/3/5 woods and irons 3-Lw...and the putter was a Ping which was ok..the wedges too..

 

they also had S flex vs my normal R's..

 

Lol wow! thats great playing considering. i remember those days rocking my 975j titleist driver!

[lowheel]

And one question for low heel - you seem like a player that has been around the block...if you think the scratch has no chance at 85, then what do you think they'd shoot? I'm talking your normal club scratch. Shoots par sometimes, better sometimes, lots of mid 70s. A legit guy. Not a scratch who shoots 83 in every tournament.

 

I dont know if you read through some of the thread when i addressed this but i believe based on the OPs conditions and stipulations I feel a miniscule amount of scratches could break 85 under those rules. Just my opinion. Not all scratches are the same just as not all pros are the same the difference though is that pros are battle tested and better know how to score than your average club scratch and their game travels well.

The scenario unfolds 1 of 2 ways a real scratch usually shoots at worst 4-5 above under normal conditions if we base it on the 78.1 rating that is widely used here for augusta in sunday tournament conditions i believe that # nearly triples but likely doubles. I believe obee thinks the real # to discuss is 81 or 82 being a certainty but im not sure if he means that under the OPs conditions.

I believe that there are a handful of scratches in north america that can handle the stage and the speed/slope of these greens to break that #. i would guess from places ive played id bet on club scratches from Oakmont, Oakland Hills, Winged Foot and a few others would be properly equipped to take that challenge on site unseen as the OP suggests. i dont think its impossible but a stretch because of the stipulations

Its hard to give a # without seeing this persons scoring and what courses they play. The 2 Scratch options you presented are not mutually exclusive.I teach a few scratches as i previously stated and as you know tournaments add 4-5 shots per round so 80 isnt out of the question if youre out of your comfort zone.

I believe an am tourney tested scratch has a leg up in this scenario versus just a club scratch who plays the club championship and maybe some interclub comps during the summer.

Great discussion for sure though and would make a great Golf channel reality show!

[Shilgy]

Not to drag this discussion on...but..

I am a former PGA Professional who worked at a very prominent Club in the Atlanta area for the better part of a decade. After a solid run as a collegiate golfer and some time on multiple mini-tours with decent results I was considered an above average player as a club pro. I had a couple of members who were also members at ANGC and every other year or so I would get an offer to play the course with them. The member would also bring some other players who were on the same level (and usually better) than I was at the time.

There is such an intimidation factor on those grounds, a feeling that is hard to play around sometimes and I really never didn't have it when I stepped on the first tee. Of the five times that I played the course I never broke 80, nor did any of my playing partners. My best score was an 81 from the Tournament tees the fourth time I played there, this after I had won a Georgia PGA Section event with consecutive 66's the week before. One of the other pro's who played with us the last time I played the course shot an 82, the next week he shot a 63 at East Lake C.C.(Home of the tour Championship).

Like others have said before, it's not the tee to green that makes the course difficult ...it is the greens! Even hitting greens in regulation and being close to the pin can lead to bogeys and doubles. I've been fortunate to have played many great courses, even really tough major tournament venues, but nothing compares to Augusta National.

So in your opinion Augusta is about 19 strokes harder than East Lake? Their course rating is 76.2/144 so about 95? I am guessing the answer is "of course not". Anecdotes about players that shot 63 at one course and then 82 at Augusta just show that it's golf. A player going 78 Augusta and 85 at East Lake would not have us thinking the opposite. It's just two separate rounds.

I'm sure Augusta is a difficult course. That is understood. But it's not windmills and hazards. So put ten scratches on the course and a couple would likely shoot 80-85.

[Obee]

Not to drag this discussion on...but..

I am a former PGA Professional who worked at a very prominent Club in the Atlanta area for the better part of a decade. After a solid run as a collegiate golfer and some time on multiple mini-tours with decent results I was considered an above average player as a club pro. I had a couple of members who were also members at ANGC and every other year or so I would get an offer to play the course with them. The member would also bring some other players who were on the same level (and usually better) than I was at the time.

There is such an intimidation factor on those grounds, a feeling that is hard to play around sometimes and I really never didn't have it when I stepped on the first tee. Of the five times that I played the course I never broke 80, nor did any of my playing partners. My best score was an 81 from the Tournament tees the fourth time I played there, this after I had won a Georgia PGA Section event with consecutive 66's the week before. One of the other pro's who played with us the last time I played the course shot an 82, the next week he shot a 63 at East Lake C.C.(Home of the tour Championship).

Like others have said before, it's not the tee to green that makes the course difficult ...it is the greens! Even hitting greens in regulation and being close to the pin can lead to bogeys and doubles. I've been fortunate to have played many great courses, even really tough major tournament venues, but nothing compares to Augusta National.

So in your opinion Augusta is about 19 strokes harder than East Lake? Their course rating is 76.2/144 so about 95? I am guessing the answer is "of course not". Anecdotes about players that shot 63 at one course and then 82 at Augusta just show that it's golf. A player going 78 Augusta and 85 at East Lake would not have use thinking the opposite. It's just two separate rounds.

I'm sure Augusta is a difficult course. That is understood. But it's not windmills and hazards. So put ten scratches on the course and a couple would likely shoot 80-85.

 

Because ... math ....

[jmvargas]

in the early 80s i was in my late 30s and playing a lot of great golf never going above 76 on relatively long hard courses and boasted that if Jack Nicklaus gave me 10 strokes i would give him a good fight on the courses i play..

 

i then played a good local veteran pro who shot an easy 64(32-32) on one of those courses while i shot a good--for me as i had an OB--75..

 

i have kept my mouth shut since then about those kind of things..

 

i also played in the pro-am of our national open in 1991 with journeyman pro Bill Israelson as our pro and he shot an easy 66 on a really world class course and we won with a net 55(-17) where i contributed 10 strokes with my 7 hdcp and made 2 gross eagles on par 5s and feeling a bit cocky after i asked Bill if i had any chance at the US Senior Tour as i was only 45 at that time..

 

he just looked me straight in the eye and said.."NO"..

[Obee]

in the early 80s i was in my late 30s and playing a lot of great golf never going above 76 on relatively long hard courses and boasted that if Jack Nicklaus gave me 10 strokes i would give him a good fight on the courses i play..

 

i then played a good local veteran pro who shot an easy 64(32-32) on one of those courses while i shot a good--for me as i has a OB--75..

 

i have kept my mouth shut since then about those kind of things..

 

i also played in the pro-am of our national open in 1990 with journeyman pro Bill Israelson as our pro and he shot an easy 66 on a really world class course and we won with a net 55(-17) where i contributed 10 strokes with my 7 hdcp and made 2 gross eagles on par 5s and feeling a bit cocky after i asked Bill if i had any chance at the US Senior Tour as i was only 45 at that time..

 

he just looked me straight in the eye and said.."NO"..

 

What was you lowest handicap back in the day?