Could a Scratch Golfer break 85 at Augusta?

BMC · August 24, 2017

No caddie and no cart? How about a push cart? Yardage book?

Sunday conditions. Will Nantz be there?

lowheel · August 24, 2017

If a scratch player who

- hits it 260+ average
- has an excellent (not just very good) short game and iron play
- got his scratch by playing in bigger am tournaments and is used to playing long courses
- approaches the round conservatively

then I think he/she should be able to break 85 under the conditions the OP gave us, if his complete game is on. Maybe even close to 80 if he/she is on fire.

If the scratch hits it 235 on average (like obee) he would have to do miracle play to break 85, I don't care what the rest of his game looks like. He would have zero chance of reaching 1, 5, 7, 9, 10, 11, 14, 17, 18 in two, would need 3 wood or driver on 4 just to reach the green. He wouldn't even get around the corner on 18 and 13. He would have to hit a middle iron on 12 that won't hold the putting surface because he doesn't hit it hard enough. If he is not the Grand Master of chipping, pitching and long iron approach he will have a long day on and around the greens.

A friend of mine is a teaching pro who trained the national team of my country, he should know what he is talking about. He has been at the Masters a few times, he said that if you are not able to hit the right spots on most of the greens you can be sure to 3-putt. You get lots of uneven lies (TV gives zero clue how hilly that course actually is) and you have to know which spots on the green you should avoid at all costs. Don't be fooled by "short hitters" like Bernhard Langer or Steve Stricker still managing to get around ANGC with scores around par. These guys are not short, they hit it around 270 consistently, are excellent iron players, know the course from dozens of rounds, and they play tournaments on Senior Tour stops with -20 for three rounds. They still carry + index. If a scratch player can play a Seniors Tour stop under par on a regular basis he can get close to 80 at Augusta, if not he can forget about it.

@obee

Math doesn't always help. You said you shot 34 and 44 at LA CC, which one of these was closer to what you regularly play on courses of this caliber?

I had never played LACC. I walked. I weigh 285 pounds. On the back nine I was completely exhausted. If I played there 20 times, my AVERAGE score would probably be right about what I shot that day, but probably a bit lower (76ish?) I played very well on the front. And horribly on the back and I was exhausted. Depending on conditions, I could see myself shooting as low as 69 or 70 and as high as 84/85 in the type of conditions we played that day: 80 and sunny. Light wind.

And I don't hit it 235. I carry it 235. At a tour venue, I would hit it, total distance, 255-265 on their firm fairways.

Or your front was a fluke because you got up and down more often than normal and it caught up to you on the back. you admitted you hit woods into all par 4s. Go do that at augusta and come back and talk to me. You wouldnt reach the corner of the 1st hole with a 235 yard drive...
Again lacc is not augusta. If you were exhausted walking lacc then this shows me youve never been to augusta. Its a beast to walk and tv doesnt show this. You might have 3 or 4 flat lies all day. I like your confidence but you dont hit it long enough or high enough to shoot the # you think you would shoot there. I wouldnt bet your house if i were you to break 85 there.You should be proud of your score but that is a horrible comparison. You cant hit woods into augusta greens and you know this by watching the older masters champs who get killed every year doing that.

I carry driver 235. I hit it 250 to 260 with roll. I'm short, not decrepit!

And on certain par 4's I would lay back to 80 yards and zip a LW to 4 feet and save par! DUH!! ;-)

thanks for proving my point. Youre not zipping any wedge to 4 feet consistently at augusta otherwise youd be on tour. Turns out your front was flukey if you were playing par 4s like that. You need to hit it 270 to get around the corner at the first on augusta. Mark Omeara and langer made doubles there hitting woods into that hole, I think theyre slighlty better than you (maybe) but youd beat them surely ;) after sizing them up like you did with the midams you mentioned!

benno_r · August 25, 2017

thanks for proving my point. Youre not zipping any wedge to 4 feet consistently at augusta otherwise youd be on tour. Turns out your front was flukey if you were playing par 4s like that. You need to hit it 270 to get around the corner at the first on augusta. Mark Omeara and langer made doubles there hitting woods into that hole, I think theyre slighlty better than you (maybe) but youd beat them surely ;) after sizing them up like you did with the midams you mentioned!

O'meara and Langer are making doubles - under the pump in the largest Tourny in the world - playing for actual cash and trophies.

Not quite the same amount of pressure as a guy having a casual round by himself with no one watching. Very different scenarios that is not really proving the point.

Obee · August 25, 2017

If a scratch player who

- hits it 260+ average
- has an excellent (not just very good) short game and iron play
- got his scratch by playing in bigger am tournaments and is used to playing long courses
- approaches the round conservatively

then I think he/she should be able to break 85 under the conditions the OP gave us, if his complete game is on. Maybe even close to 80 if he/she is on fire.

If the scratch hits it 235 on average (like obee) he would have to do miracle play to break 85, I don't care what the rest of his game looks like. He would have zero chance of reaching 1, 5, 7, 9, 10, 11, 14, 17, 18 in two, would need 3 wood or driver on 4 just to reach the green. He wouldn't even get around the corner on 18 and 13. He would have to hit a middle iron on 12 that won't hold the putting surface because he doesn't hit it hard enough. If he is not the Grand Master of chipping, pitching and long iron approach he will have a long day on and around the greens.

A friend of mine is a teaching pro who trained the national team of my country, he should know what he is talking about. He has been at the Masters a few times, he said that if you are not able to hit the right spots on most of the greens you can be sure to 3-putt. You get lots of uneven lies (TV gives zero clue how hilly that course actually is) and you have to know which spots on the green you should avoid at all costs. Don't be fooled by "short hitters" like Bernhard Langer or Steve Stricker still managing to get around ANGC with scores around par. These guys are not short, they hit it around 270 consistently, are excellent iron players, know the course from dozens of rounds, and they play tournaments on Senior Tour stops with -20 for three rounds. They still carry + index. If a scratch player can play a Seniors Tour stop under par on a regular basis he can get close to 80 at Augusta, if not he can forget about it.

@obee

Math doesn't always help. You said you shot 34 and 44 at LA CC, which one of these was closer to what you regularly play on courses of this caliber?

I had never played LACC. I walked. I weigh 285 pounds. On the back nine I was completely exhausted. If I played there 20 times, my AVERAGE score would probably be right about what I shot that day, but probably a bit lower (76ish?) I played very well on the front. And horribly on the back and I was exhausted. Depending on conditions, I could see myself shooting as low as 69 or 70 and as high as 84/85 in the type of conditions we played that day: 80 and sunny. Light wind.

And I don't hit it 235. I carry it 235. At a tour venue, I would hit it, total distance, 255-265 on their firm fairways.

Or your front was a fluke because you got up and down more often than normal and it caught up to you on the back. you admitted you hit woods into all par 4s. Go do that at augusta and come back and talk to me. You wouldnt reach the corner of the 1st hole with a 235 yard drive...
Again lacc is not augusta. If you were exhausted walking lacc then this shows me youve never been to augusta. Its a beast to walk and tv doesnt show this. You might have 3 or 4 flat lies all day. I like your confidence but you dont hit it long enough or high enough to shoot the # you think you would shoot there. I wouldnt bet your house if i were you to break 85 there.You should be proud of your score but that is a horrible comparison. You cant hit woods into augusta greens and you know this by watching the older masters champs who get killed every year doing that.

I carry driver 235. I hit it 250 to 260 with roll. I'm short, not decrepit!

And on certain par 4's I would lay back to 80 yards and zip a LW to 4 feet and save par! DUH!! ;-)

thanks for proving my point. Youre not zipping any wedge to 4 feet consistently at augusta otherwise youd be on tour. Turns out your front was flukey if you were playing par 4s like that. You need to hit it 270 to get around the corner at the first on augusta. Mark Omeara and langer made doubles there hitting woods into that hole, I think theyre slighlty better than you (maybe) but youd beat them surely ;) after sizing them up like you did with the midams you mentioned!

I play a top 20 in the world champions tour player on a regular basis. I know exactly where my game stands with those guys.

Come out to my club and play anytime you like! On me. :-)

lowheel · August 25, 2017

thanks for proving my point. Youre not zipping any wedge to 4 feet consistently at augusta otherwise youd be on tour. Turns out your front was flukey if you were playing par 4s like that. You need to hit it 270 to get around the corner at the first on augusta. Mark Omeara and langer made doubles there hitting woods into that hole, I think theyre slighlty better than you (maybe) but youd beat them surely ;) after sizing them up like you did with the midams you mentioned!

O'meara and Langer are making doubles - under the pump in the largest Tourny in the world - playing for actual cash and trophies.

Not quite the same amount of pressure as a guy having a casual round by himself with no one watching. Very different scenarios that is not really proving the point.

Yeah, theres no pressure in going from playing 6500/6700 yard courses with 10.5 greens to augusta...

Short Pete · August 25, 2017

for those who read my last thread i rated my friend a +4 or +5 but he could have been better although the only official hdcp that i could remember he had was +2 based on the hdcp computation parameters at that time which were a bit different vs now..

his 1st practice round was 79 hitting all 18 greens..

he also made the amateur cut 2x..

my friend who was there covering the 1991 Masters for a national daily told me even i could easily reach the 15th hole in 2..

i have no doubt a legitimate scratch handicap today could easily break 85 at Augusta..

Keep in mind that the 1991 Masters setup has little to do with the setup of today. It is about 600 yards longer, some of the tees have been moved to narrow the space where you can hit it. Maybe you are long enough to cover 530 yards with two perfect hits, but can you stop your ball on a green (where short means water and long means an extremely difficult chip up a slope to a green tilting away from you) from 230 yards out and a downhill lie? I guess not.

13 and 15 are good chances for a safe par for our scratcher, he can lay it up and put it on the green safely. That's the way he should play all the long par 4s. If he has a good day he has a fair chance of making some pars there. But even this is not the safe way to shoot well. I watched the German Team Championship final last week, the guys there were scratch oder even better, and pretty long off the tee. They didn't make pitch and one-putt on every hole like machines, and the greens there were much more receptive and easier to putt than the pool tables at Augusta National under tournament conditions.

benno_r · August 25, 2017

thanks for proving my point. Youre not zipping any wedge to 4 feet consistently at augusta otherwise youd be on tour. Turns out your front was flukey if you were playing par 4s like that. You need to hit it 270 to get around the corner at the first on augusta. Mark Omeara and langer made doubles there hitting woods into that hole, I think theyre slighlty better than you (maybe) but youd beat them surely ;) after sizing them up like you did with the midams you mentioned!

O'meara and Langer are making doubles - under the pump in the largest Tourny in the world - playing for actual cash and trophies.

Not quite the same amount of pressure as a guy having a casual round by himself with no one watching. Very different scenarios that is not really proving the point.

Yeah, theres no pressure in going from playing 6500/6700 yard courses with 10.5 greens to augusta...

What pressure is there? "Here's a tough course go out and shoot 85 with no one to watch you and nothing on the line". Hardly comparable to playing the Masters against 100 other flushers, being on TV and in front of big crowds, and playing for big $$$ and a trophy.

Augusta is just a golf course, and a great one at that, but I don't believe it to be some impenetrable fortress that not a single scratch marker can conquer.

jmvargas · August 25, 2017

never actually seen it in person but have watched almost all the Masters on tv since the 60s and read a lot about Augusta..

it is known for it's wide fairways, practically no rough and fast undulating greens..

assuming you have a good short game and enough length for the length renovations made through the years 85 or better seems like a relatively easy score to make..

Shilgy · August 25, 2017

my good friend was a local legend and the best amateur golfer ever produced by my country and as an amateur won our national open in 1966 and was invited to the Masters that year..

iirc he also was the first ever amateur from Asia invited to the Masters..

in his first practice round he told me he hit all 18 greens in regulation including putting for eagles on 13 and 5 and shot 79.

he said the undulations on some greens were so great you would think they buried an elephant in there..

he made the cut in in 1966 and 1967 but failed the third time after shooting 83 in the 2nd round..

at that time the cut for amateurs was not the same as for the pros as i think they wanted a minimum amount of amateurs to play the last 2 rounds although i don't remember how many--maybe 4 or 6..

he had also represented our country in the World Cup--or Canada Cup at the time--with our best pro at least once and won our national amateur 11 times and low amateur in our national open at least 8 times..

he was about a +4 or +5 handicap in his prime...

PS: in 1991 when i was 45 and he was 51 we played 2 straight weekends at a course he was managing and i outplayed him 71-76 and 76-77..... and of course he told me he was not feeling well at the time and initially jokingly refused to sign the scorecard but when i told him i had 3 witnesses as we were a 5-some he finally did and i still have it!!...

Wow, I could not find anything about separate cuts and don't recall this. Do you have anything you can point me to about this? They have awarded the low amateur trophy to the low amateur that makes the cut since 1952. Until recently there were just a few years that none made the cut.

BloctonGolf11 · August 25, 2017

Okay I am going to go out on a limb here and try to add some statistics to go along with my complete anecdotal argument.

The fourth round scoring average at this years Masters was 71.9 so we can basically say Par was the "average" score for the top players in the professional world who came out and made the cut. So his claim is an 80 would only be 8 strokes difference off the average and an 85 13 strokes off the average of the greatest players in the world who live and breath golf as a profession.

Now lets take some anecdotal evidence mixed with stats. Your friend is a scratch golfer in tournament conditions. Smylie Kaufman came out to the local course that I play constantly, (my son also takes lessons there) the day after our State Amateur was played. Similar conditions (sight unseen, short warm up) and shot a 65 (-7) from the back tees on what would be tougher conditions than your average tours. Kaufmann is a PGA Tour player but outside of the made cut at the Masters last year has never made another cut at a Major. On Sunday of the Amateur (which is comprised of seriously talented golfers and a slew of Division 1 players) only 23 players broke Par. This was with countless practice rounds and a caddy.

So a PGA Tour Pro who is not in the upper crust of the game shot 7 strokes better than Par without difficulty on a course comparable to the toughest tournament conditions the average non professional player plays.

The level between a "scratch" and a PGA Tour Player making the cut at the Masters is a bigger difference than that of a scratch and 15 capper in my opinion.

I believe 80 is out of the question. Not enough birdie holes and way to many holes begging for a doubles and possibly triples without prior knowledge of those greens.

I would put 85 as maybe a 1/5 chance at best for a non professional playing Sunday conditions at Augusta. I think a 90 is much more likely.

Honestly, saying no doubles shows a complete lack or respect and a person who is boasting. I would say guaranteeing no doubles on ANY PGA Sunday set up is a ridiculous statement from a non-professional. To say that about a Major without walking the course is simply asinine.

Just my two cents.

Hankshank · August 25, 2017

A question here, where do the members play from? The normal CEO hcp 25 members? You do nor really see member tees. Like on 12th. If Jordan has problems, how will Condolezza and Bill fare?

RobotDoctor · August 25, 2017

Of all the people that have posted in this thread, how many have actually been on the Augusta National Golf Course grounds during The Masters tournament? I went for a practice round in 2015. I have watched 2+ decades of Masters coverage (going back into the mid 80s) and I thought I knew this course, the holes, the hills and undulation. When I got there I couldn't believe the elevation changes, how significant the hills were, how there are not many flat lies in the fairway, let alone the first cut. I couldn't believe how undulating those greens are. Under the conditions set by the OP, I am beginning to realize that scoring 85 or better for a first time scratch player is a very daunting task. I would not take that bet.

RobotDoctor · August 25, 2017

...

I play a top 20 in the world champions tour player on a regular basis. I know exactly where my game stands with those guys.

Come out to my club and play anytime you like! On me. :-)

Obee, I will take you on your challenge. Of course I will call it a playing lesson and maybe learn something on how to play! :)

lowheel · August 25, 2017

thanks for proving my point. Youre not zipping any wedge to 4 feet consistently at augusta otherwise youd be on tour. Turns out your front was flukey if you were playing par 4s like that. You need to hit it 270 to get around the corner at the first on augusta. Mark Omeara and langer made doubles there hitting woods into that hole, I think theyre slighlty better than you (maybe) but youd beat them surely ;) after sizing them up like you did with the midams you mentioned!

O'meara and Langer are making doubles - under the pump in the largest Tourny in the world - playing for actual cash and trophies.

Not quite the same amount of pressure as a guy having a casual round by himself with no one watching. Very different scenarios that is not really proving the point.

Yeah, theres no pressure in going from playing 6500/6700 yard courses with 10.5 greens to augusta...

What pressure is there? "Here's a tough course go out and shoot 85 with no one to watch you and nothing on the line". Hardly comparable to playing the Masters against 100 other flushers, being on TV and in front of big crowds, and playing for big $$$ and a trophy.

Augusta is just a golf course, and a great one at that, but I don't believe it to be some impenetrable fortress that not a single scratch marker can conquer.

Yeah, just a course, no pressure at all, completely comfortable walk in the park... Have you ever played golf before? seriously?

lowheel · August 25, 2017

Of all the people that have posted in this thread, how many have actually been on the Augusta National Golf Course grounds during The Masters tournament? I went for a practice round in 2015. I have watched 2+ decades of Masters coverage (going back into the mid 80s) and I thought I knew this course, the holes, the hills and undulation. When I got there I couldn't believe the elevation changes, how significant the hills were, how there are not many flat lies in the fairway, let alone the first cut. I couldn't believe how undulating those greens are. Under the conditions set by the OP, I am beginning to realize that scoring 85 or better for a first time scratch player is a very daunting task. I would not take that bet.

Ive been there fortunately more than a few times and this cant be said enough. Alot of delusion in this thread thats for sure.

RobotDoctor · August 25, 2017

never actually seen it in person but have watched almost all the Masters on tv since the 60s and read a lot about Augusta..

it is known for it's wide fairways, practically no rough and fast undulating greens..

assuming you have a good short game and enough length for the length renovations made through the years 85 or better seems like a relatively easy score to make..

The course is different from what we see on TV. The elevation changes, undulations, uneven lies, the slope of the greens, everything is muted on TV than reality. I couldn't believe how fast the greens were, and that was on the Monday practice round. Players were barely taking back their putters and the ball rolled, and rolled, and rolled, and broke, broke some more, and rolled. I think we get the point. Unless the scratch player is someone playing at a tour quality venue, or even a major quality venue, I would say little chance.

lowheel · August 25, 2017

Okay I am going to go out on a limb here and try to add some statistics to go along with my complete anecdotal argument.

The fourth round scoring average at this years Masters was 71.9 so we can basically say Par was the "average" score for the top players in the professional world who came out and made the cut. So his claim is an 80 would only be 8 strokes difference off the average and an 85 13 strokes off the average of the greatest players in the world who live and breath golf as a profession.

Now lets take some anecdotal evidence mixed with stats. Your friend is a scratch golfer in tournament conditions. Smylie Kaufman came out to the local course that I play constantly, (my son also takes lessons there) the day after our State Amateur was played. Similar conditions (sight unseen, short warm up) and shot a 65 (-7) from the back tees on what would be tougher conditions than your average tours. Kaufmann is a PGA Tour player but outside of the made cut at the Masters last year has never made another cut at a Major. On Sunday of the Amateur (which is comprised of seriously talented golfers and a slew of Division 1 players) only 23 players broke Par. This was with countless practice rounds and a caddy.

So a PGA Tour Pro who is not in the upper crust of the game shot 7 strokes better than Par without difficulty on a course comparable to the toughest tournament conditions the average non professional player plays.

The level between a "scratch" and a PGA Tour Player making the cut at the Masters is a bigger difference than that of a scratch and 15 capper in my opinion.

I believe 80 is out of the question. Not enough birdie holes and way to many holes begging for a doubles and possibly triples without prior knowledge of those greens.

I would put 85 as maybe a 1/5 chance at best for a non professional playing Sunday conditions at Augusta. I think a 90 is much more likely.

Honestly, saying no doubles shows a complete lack or respect and a person who is boasting. I would say guaranteeing no doubles on ANY PGA Sunday set up is a ridiculous statement from a non-professional. To say that about a Major without walking the course is simply asinine.

Just my two cents.

Pretty much. its night and day but dont tell anyone here that

lowheel · August 25, 2017

Obee, if im ever in your neck of the woods youre on FYI. Ill play your tees or youll play my tees however you want it. As for how you measure yourself with a "top 20 champions tour player" i really dont know what that means. Youre probably getting dusted by 6+ shots on average unless you play forward tees and he plays further back. I used to practice some with Rod Spittle on the champions tour and he was a +4/5 tourney cap a few years back. i assume you would take him down is what youre saying?

jmvargas · August 25, 2017

my good friend was a local legend and the best amateur golfer ever produced by my country and as an amateur won our national open in 1966 and was invited to the Masters that year..

iirc he also was the first ever amateur from Asia invited to the Masters..

in his first practice round he told me he hit all 18 greens in regulation including putting for eagles on 13 and 5 and shot 79.

he said the undulations on some greens were so great you would think they buried an elephant in there..

he made the cut in in 1966 and 1967 but failed the third time after shooting 83 in the 2nd round..

at that time the cut for amateurs was not the same as for the pros as i think they wanted a minimum amount of amateurs to play the last 2 rounds although i don't remember how many--maybe 4 or 6..

he had also represented our country in the World Cup--or Canada Cup at the time--with our best pro at least once and won our national amateur 11 times and low amateur in our national open at least 8 times..

he was about a +4 or +5 handicap in his prime...

PS: in 1991 when i was 45 and he was 51 we played 2 straight weekends at a course he was managing and i outplayed him 71-76 and 76-77..... and of course he told me he was not feeling well at the time and initially jokingly refused to sign the scorecard but when i told him i had 3 witnesses as we were a 5-some he finally did and i still have it!!...
Wow, I could not find anything about separate cuts and don't recall this. Do you have anything you can point me to about this? They have awarded the low amateur trophy to the low amateur that makes the cut since 1952. Until recently there were just a few years that none made the cut.

i was doing all of this from memory and could be mistaken on the amateur cut then so i googled the person involved--luis "golem" silverio--and got some varying results..

one article reported he missed the cut on the first occasion but was invited again the next year where he did make the cut..

another mentioned he made the cut the first time was invited again the next year and missed the cut .

in any case my friend passed away in 2008 at the age of 70..

i do remember his telling me about playing a practice round with the US team in the 1960 World Amateur in Merion and he wasn't that impressed with Jack Nicklaus then...

and btw he was not only the first Asian amateur invited to the Masters but was actually the first Asian golfer invited..

RichieHunt · August 25, 2017

Yes, if he was a legit scratch.

In fact, I believe a legit scratch could probably break 80 on a good day.

There's not a lot of double bogey holes out at ANGC and Tour pros who tend to believe that legit scratch golfers couldn't break 90 (or even 100) have little idea of exactly how good they are compared to legit scratch golfers. It's not so much about a discrepancy in scores (i.e. the Tour player shooting in the 60's and the legit scratch shooting in the 90's) as it is that the likelihood of a legit scratch ever beating them in any round at any course is very, very low. Steph Curry plays to a 2 handicap and the Tour players thought he wouldn't break 85 at a Web.com event. He broke 75 twice and it shocked so many players (including myself to a degree). But the reality is that Curry wasn't likely to shoot a high number at that particular course...but he was almost guaranteed to not break par there either and most of the field would beat him about 95%+ of the time.

At ANGC you have some very difficult holes to make par (#1, #4, #7, #9, #11 and #18) and the issue there is if you miss a GIR, you're just not likely to get up-and-down. But those holes you can reasonably come away with no worse than a bogey, then you have potential shots at birdie on #2, #3, #8, #13 and #15 and even #16 (back left pin with a decent amount of luck).

I probably wouldn't expect it from a legit scratch the first time or two around, but a little bit of practice and they can get accustomed to the greens and if the wind is down, they can get a good day and break 80 if their nerves can take it.

RH

Darth Putter · August 25, 2017

The level between a "scratch" and a PGA Tour Player making the cut at the Masters is a bigger difference than that of a scratch and 15 capper in my opinion.

Agreed.

RobotDoctor · August 25, 2017

my good friend was a local legend and the best amateur golfer ever produced by my country and as an amateur won our national open in 1966 and was invited to the Masters that year..

iirc he also was the first ever amateur from Asia invited to the Masters..

in his first practice round he told me he hit all 18 greens in regulation including putting for eagles on 13 and 5 and shot 79.

he said the undulations on some greens were so great you would think they buried an elephant in there..

he made the cut in in 1966 and 1967 but failed the third time after shooting 83 in the 2nd round..

at that time the cut for amateurs was not the same as for the pros as i think they wanted a minimum amount of amateurs to play the last 2 rounds although i don't remember how many--maybe 4 or 6..

he had also represented our country in the World Cup--or Canada Cup at the time--with our best pro at least once and won our national amateur 11 times and low amateur in our national open at least 8 times..

he was about a +4 or +5 handicap in his prime...

PS: in 1991 when i was 45 and he was 51 we played 2 straight weekends at a course he was managing and i outplayed him 71-76 and 76-77..... and of course he told me he was not feeling well at the time and initially jokingly refused to sign the scorecard but when i told him i had 3 witnesses as we were a 5-some he finally did and i still have it!!...
Wow, I could not find anything about separate cuts and don't recall this. Do you have anything you can point me to about this? They have awarded the low amateur trophy to the low amateur that makes the cut since 1952. Until recently there were just a few years that none made the cut.

i was doing all of this from memory and could be mistaken on the amateur cut then so i googled the person involved--luis "golem" silverio--and got some varying results..

one article reported he missed the cut on the first occasion but was invited again the next year where he did make the cut..

another mentioned he made the cut the first time was invited again the next year and missed the cut .

in any case my friend passed away in 2008 at the age of 70..

i do remember his telling me about playing a practice round with the US team in the 1960 World Amateur in Merion and he wasn't that impressed with Jack Nicklaus then...

and btw he was not only the first Asian amateur invited to the Masters but was actually the first Asian golfer invited..

I guess your friend was a poor assessment of talent. Even back in the late 50s and 1960, Jack was very well regarded. Even Mr. Hogan thought much of Jack after the US Open at Cherry Hills. That was before the World Amateur I believe.

Obee · August 25, 2017

Okay I am going to go out on a limb here and try to add some statistics to go along with my complete anecdotal argument.

The fourth round scoring average at this years Masters was 71.9 so we can basically say Par was the "average" score for the top players in the professional world who came out and made the cut. So his claim is an 80 would only be 8 strokes difference off the average and an 85 13 strokes off the average of the greatest players in the world who live and breath golf as a profession.

Now lets take some anecdotal evidence mixed with stats. Your friend is a scratch golfer in tournament conditions. Smylie Kaufman came out to the local course that I play constantly, (my son also takes lessons there) the day after our State Amateur was played. Similar conditions (sight unseen, short warm up) and shot a 65 (-7) from the back tees on what would be tougher conditions than your average tours. Kaufmann is a PGA Tour player but outside of the made cut at the Masters last year has never made another cut at a Major. On Sunday of the Amateur (which is comprised of seriously talented golfers and a slew of Division 1 players) only 23 players broke Par. This was with countless practice rounds and a caddy.

So a PGA Tour Pro who is not in the upper crust of the game shot 7 strokes better than Par without difficulty on a course comparable to the toughest tournament conditions the average non professional player plays.

The level between a "scratch" and a PGA Tour Player making the cut at the Masters is a bigger difference than that of a scratch and 15 capper in my opinion.

I believe 80 is out of the question. Not enough birdie holes and way to many holes begging for a doubles and possibly triples without prior knowledge of those greens.

I would put 85 as maybe a 1/5 chance at best for a non professional playing Sunday conditions at Augusta. I think a 90 is much more likely.

Honestly, saying no doubles shows a complete lack or respect and a person who is boasting. I would say guaranteeing no doubles on ANY PGA Sunday set up is a ridiculous statement from a non-professional. To say that about a Major without walking the course is simply asinine.

Just my two cents.

Your two cents is noted.

If you think Rickie Fowler (or any top 20/100/200 in the world pro) would play me and give me (or any of 50 tournament ams I play with on a regular basis) 15 shots on ANY golf course in the world, I would truly love to buy some of what you are smoking or injecting. Read some of my other (verifiable) threads and then come back here and respond.

I play these guys. For Money. They give me 4 a side if we play the same tees. 1 or two a side if I get a tee bump or two.

I would play them for everything I own, and everything my friends own, getting 15 shots.

You simply do not know what you are talking about. Step away from the keyboard. You think you know. You simply do not know.

I love this stuff… So funny…

Obee · August 25, 2017

Obee, if im ever in your neck of the woods youre on FYI. Ill play your tees or youll play my tees however you want it. As for how you measure yourself with a "top 20 champions tour player" i really dont know what that means. Youre probably getting dusted by 6+ shots on average unless you play forward tees and he plays further back. I used to practice some with Rod Spittle on the champions tour and he was a +4/5 tourney cap a few years back. i assume you would take him down is what youre saying?

Of course that's not what I'm saying.

Read what I ACTUALLY say.

Shilgy · August 25, 2017

Yes, if he was a legit scratch.

In fact, I believe a legit scratch could probably break 80 on a good day.

There's not a lot of double bogey holes out at ANGC and Tour pros who tend to believe that legit scratch golfers couldn't break 90 (or even 100) have little idea of exactly how good they are compared to legit scratch golfers. It's not so much about a discrepancy in scores (i.e. the Tour player shooting in the 60's and the legit scratch shooting in the 90's) as it is that the likelihood of a legit scratch ever beating them in any round at any course is very, very low. Steph Curry plays to a 2 handicap and the Tour players thought he wouldn't break 85 at a Web.com event. He broke 75 twice and it shocked so many players (including myself to a degree). But the reality is that Curry wasn't likely to shoot a high number at that particular course...but he was almost guaranteed to not break par there either and most of the field would beat him about 95%+ of the time.

At ANGC you have some very difficult holes to make par (#1, #4, #7, #9, #11 and #18) and the issue there is if you miss a GIR, you're just not likely to get up-and-down. But those holes you can reasonably come away with no worse than a bogey, then you have potential shots at birdie on #2, #3, #8, #13 and #15 and even #16 (back left pin with a decent amount of luck).

I probably wouldn't expect it from a legit scratch the first time or two around, but a little bit of practice and they can get accustomed to the greens and if the wind is down, they can get a good day and break 80 if their nerves can take it.

RH

other than your Curry handicap I agree with much of this. Curry is now a +1.2.

But they're are a few big numbers available. How many pros have made big numbers on 12?

As others have stated part of the issue would be the objective of the scratch. Is it too shoot the best number possible? Or to stay under +13? Imo trying to shoot 80-84 would be the only way the scratch would "win" this bet. Don't get too aggressive and take the pars when they come and make sure max is a bogey.

That said it really does show the huge gulf between the tour pros and a scratch. That we are even having this discussion shows how good they are. Obee really is dq'd anyways as he is better than scratch. :)

BMC · August 25, 2017

Scratch or +4 tour pro...it all comes down to putting. The scratch player may break 80 if he's putting well.

Some of you are over analyzing the scenario.

Obee · August 25, 2017

Yes, if he was a legit scratch.

In fact, I believe a legit scratch could probably break 80 on a good day.

There's not a lot of double bogey holes out at ANGC and Tour pros who tend to believe that legit scratch golfers couldn't break 90 (or even 100) have little idea of exactly how good they are compared to legit scratch golfers. It's not so much about a discrepancy in scores (i.e. the Tour player shooting in the 60's and the legit scratch shooting in the 90's) as it is that the likelihood of a legit scratch ever beating them in any round at any course is very, very low. Steph Curry plays to a 2 handicap and the Tour players thought he wouldn't break 85 at a Web.com event. He broke 75 twice and it shocked so many players (including myself to a degree). But the reality is that Curry wasn't likely to shoot a high number at that particular course...but he was almost guaranteed to not break par there either and most of the field would beat him about 95%+ of the time.

At ANGC you have some very difficult holes to make par (#1, #4, #7, #9, #11 and #18) and the issue there is if you miss a GIR, you're just not likely to get up-and-down. But those holes you can reasonably come away with no worse than a bogey, then you have potential shots at birdie on #2, #3, #8, #13 and #15 and even #16 (back left pin with a decent amount of luck).

I probably wouldn't expect it from a legit scratch the first time or two around, but a little bit of practice and they can get accustomed to the greens and if the wind is down, they can get a good day and break 80 if their nerves can take it.

RH

Shocking. Someone with a FUC%|NG brain. Thank you, Richie.

Most of you keyboard jockeys posting have never played a legit money match against a tour pro in your life. Never. I've played so many I cant count 'em. I know exactly how good they are.

And for those of you who think they're not trying when they're playing a money match against amateurs, how about when they're playing other pros in the same group for more money than most people make in several months. You read things and you extrapolate from there. And you simply don't know what you're talking about.

People who think that a legit scratch player who turns in all their scores, and plays legitimate tournament golf, is going to get 15 strokes(?!?!) from a professional golfer are absolutely high. Un. Flippin. Real.

There is not a tour pro on the planet who would give me for any of my buddies 15 shots. Ever. On any course. Under any circumstances.

Please. I beg any of you to bring any pro you want in the world to the hardest golf course you can imagine including Pine Valley (not that we could play there) or any course you want (La Purisima, anyone?) and have them give me—or any 20 buddies I could get on a moment's notice—15 shots. And bring your wallets.

I would even lay odds. Give me 15 shots. And I'll give you 3/1 on your money.

But read some of my other posts first....

Good lord.

Obee · August 25, 2017

Yes, if he was a legit scratch.

In fact, I believe a legit scratch could probably break 80 on a good day.

There's not a lot of double bogey holes out at ANGC and Tour pros who tend to believe that legit scratch golfers couldn't break 90 (or even 100) have little idea of exactly how good they are compared to legit scratch golfers. It's not so much about a discrepancy in scores (i.e. the Tour player shooting in the 60's and the legit scratch shooting in the 90's) as it is that the likelihood of a legit scratch ever beating them in any round at any course is very, very low. Steph Curry plays to a 2 handicap and the Tour players thought he wouldn't break 85 at a Web.com event. He broke 75 twice and it shocked so many players (including myself to a degree). But the reality is that Curry wasn't likely to shoot a high number at that particular course...but he was almost guaranteed to not break par there either and most of the field would beat him about 95%+ of the time.

At ANGC you have some very difficult holes to make par (#1, #4, #7, #9, #11 and #18) and the issue there is if you miss a GIR, you're just not likely to get up-and-down. But those holes you can reasonably come away with no worse than a bogey, then you have potential shots at birdie on #2, #3, #8, #13 and #15 and even #16 (back left pin with a decent amount of luck).

I probably wouldn't expect it from a legit scratch the first time or two around, but a little bit of practice and they can get accustomed to the greens and if the wind is down, they can get a good day and break 80 if their nerves can take it.

RH
other than your Curry handicap I agree with much of this. Curry is now a +1.2.
But they're are a few big numbers available. How many pros have made big numbers on 12?

As others have stated part of the issue would be the objective of the scratch. Is it too shoot the best number possible? Or to stay under +13? Imo trying to shoot 80-84 would be the only way the scratch would "win" this bet. Don't get too aggressive and take the pars when they come and make sure max is a bogey.
That said it really does show the huge gulf between the tour pros and a scratch. That we are even having this discussion shows how good they are. Obee really is dq'd anyways as he is better than scratch. :)

That's the thing, bud! I'm not anymore. I will bet you that my average cap this year was closer to scratch than it was to +1. Probably average cap for the whole year was +0.3 to +0.5?

Pretty darn close to scratch!

jmvargas · August 25, 2017

my good friend was a local legend and the best amateur golfer ever produced by my country and as an amateur won our national open in 1966 and was invited to the Masters that year..

iirc he also was the first ever amateur from Asia invited to the Masters..

in his first practice round he told me he hit all 18 greens in regulation including putting for eagles on 13 and 5 and shot 79.

he said the undulations on some greens were so great you would think they buried an elephant in there..

he made the cut in in 1966 and 1967 but failed the third time after shooting 83 in the 2nd round..

at that time the cut for amateurs was not the same as for the pros as i think they wanted a minimum amount of amateurs to play the last 2 rounds although i don't remember how many--maybe 4 or 6..

he had also represented our country in the World Cup--or Canada Cup at the time--with our best pro at least once and won our national amateur 11 times and low amateur in our national open at least 8 times..

he was about a +4 or +5 handicap in his prime...

PS: in 1991 when i was 45 and he was 51 we played 2 straight weekends at a course he was managing and i outplayed him 71-76 and 76-77..... and of course he told me he was not feeling well at the time and initially jokingly refused to sign the scorecard but when i told him i had 3 witnesses as we were a 5-some he finally did and i still have it!!...
Wow, I could not find anything about separate cuts and don't recall this. Do you have anything you can point me to about this? They have awarded the low amateur trophy to the low amateur that makes the cut since 1952. Until recently there were just a few years that none made the cut.

i was doing all of this from memory and could be mistaken on the amateur cut then so i googled the person involved--luis "golem" silverio--and got some varying results..

one article reported he missed the cut on the first occasion but was invited again the next year where he did make the cut..

another mentioned he made the cut the first time was invited again the next year and missed the cut .

in any case my friend passed away in 2008 at the age of 70..

i do remember his telling me about playing a practice round with the US team in the 1960 World Amateur in Merion and he wasn't that impressed with Jack Nicklaus then...

and btw he was not only the first Asian amateur invited to the Masters but was actually the first Asian golfer invited..

I guess your friend was a poor assessment of talent. Even back in the late 50s and 1960, Jack was very well regarded. Even Mr. Hogan thought much of Jack after the US Open at Cherry Hills. That was before the World Amateur I believe.

it was more of an ego thing i think..and his was as big as it gets.

all great golfers are quietly cocky and will never openly admit anyone is better than them..

widow-maker · August 25, 2017

Okay I am going to go out on a limb here and try to add some statistics to go along with my complete anecdotal argument.

The fourth round scoring average at this years Masters was 71.9 so we can basically say Par was the "average" score for the top players in the professional world who came out and made the cut. So his claim is an 80 would only be 8 strokes difference off the average and an 85 13 strokes off the average of the greatest players in the world who live and breath golf as a profession.

Now lets take some anecdotal evidence mixed with stats. Your friend is a scratch golfer in tournament conditions. Smylie Kaufman came out to the local course that I play constantly, (my son also takes lessons there) the day after our State Amateur was played. Similar conditions (sight unseen, short warm up) and shot a 65 (-7) from the back tees on what would be tougher conditions than your average tours. Kaufmann is a PGA Tour player but outside of the made cut at the Masters last year has never made another cut at a Major. On Sunday of the Amateur (which is comprised of seriously talented golfers and a slew of Division 1 players) only 23 players broke Par. This was with countless practice rounds and a caddy.

So a PGA Tour Pro who is not in the upper crust of the game shot 7 strokes better than Par without difficulty on a course comparable to the toughest tournament conditions the average non professional player plays.

The level between a "scratch" and a PGA Tour Player making the cut at the Masters is a bigger difference than that of a scratch and 15 capper in my opinion.

I believe 80 is out of the question. Not enough birdie holes and way to many holes begging for a doubles and possibly triples without prior knowledge of those greens.

I would put 85 as maybe a 1/5 chance at best for a non professional playing Sunday conditions at Augusta. I think a 90 is much more likely.

Honestly, saying no doubles shows a complete lack or respect and a person who is boasting. I would say guaranteeing no doubles on ANY PGA Sunday set up is a ridiculous statement from a non-professional. To say that about a Major without walking the course is simply asinine.

Just my two cents.

Your two cents is noted.

If you think Rickie Fowler (or any top 20/100/200 in the world pro) would play me and give me (or any of 50 tournament ams I play with on a regular basis) 15 shots on ANY golf course in the world, I would truly love to buy some of what you are smoking or injecting. Read some of my other (verifiable) threads and then come back here and respond.

I play these guys. For Money. They give me 4 a side if we play the same tees. 1 or two a side if I get a tee bump or two.

I would play them for everything I own, and everything my friends own, getting 15 shots.

You simply do not know what you are talking about. Step away from the keyboard. You think you know. You simply do not know.

I love this stuff… So funny…

Obee, I'm sorry you have to read some of this stuff. As if they know you or your game. You're playing money games with Phil and Rickie and they presume you can't play because you're not a tour guy. I've seen a lot of guys who can play top level golf and they weren't all tour guys. You can't lump every scratch amateur into the same pile because everybody is different. Just because there are scratches who can't, doesn't mean there aren't scratches who can. Heck, you shot under par on a 6900 yard golf course to qualify for the SCGA this year. It's ludicrous to think that you have no shot at breaking 85.