Could a Scratch Golfer break 85 at Augusta?

[VOX]

Friend and I were having a discussion. He says he could do it and would not only break 85, but 80 as well! Stipulations are no caddie, no cart, no walking the course beforehand, and 1 hour warmup before the round. Sunday tournament conditions, from the back tees. He said he wouldn't make a double bogey, and would birdie #13. What do you all think?

 

I played the course twice from the members tees when I was about a 15-17 handicap. I scored 85 and 87. Granted this is not a Sunday set-up from the back tees but the course is much more score-able for hacks than Wingedfoot or Pine Valley. Wide-open driving, no forced carries etc.

[cameronagolf]

I have played augusta 4 times and my game has been in various states. 3 times from member tees and 1 time form tourney tees. The first year my game was the best and I shot a 72 as a .7 handicap. (4 birdies 4 Bogeys) (round of my life, even though I have posted lower scores.) I felt the pressure for sure. That round was from the members tees. PS No Caddy

 

The second time I played from the tourney tees I really struggled and my game was awful leading in. I mustered up the ability to scrape it around and salvage a score. I posted a 78 with some of the worst golf I could imagine. Had a caddie for this one but honestly I can read putts well and didn't use him.

 

Third time I played in nasty weather from member tees. Literally played through downpour, in full rain gear (called off the course twice.) No caddie and I played better then my 72 and posted a 75 considering the conditions.

 

Fourth time I played from members tees I shot a 74 after a really light year of golf (had a baby so played very little) again no caddie.

 

Look I can't speak to tournament conditions. Really nobody can besides those who do it. My average score there is a 74.75 and frankly the distant gap does not make that much of a difference (I am a longer hitter though so I can say that) Take a look at the 78 from tourney tees where I fought hard to pull that together. I highly doubt the pressure is going to add 10 strokes. 5 Maybe. Even if the pressure got to you early on (i was so nervous the first time I played I could barely feel my hands) you may hit some crappy shots and then you would likely take the pressure off yourself and just play golf and you would still salvage a score at or under 80.

 

I was a college baseball player. Never played competitive golf, just fell in love with the game about 15 years ago after my baseball career ended (I am pretty much addicted.)

 

Look Augusta is amazing. Its a world above all the other courses mentioned in this forum, but not in difficulty. Keep in mind there is no rough, you almost never lose a ball (except water) the greens roll absolutely true and the par 5's are almost always reachable. Factor that in and as long as you can control distances to hit tiers and keep 3 putts at bay, its a very gettable course.

 

This honestly doesn't make sense to me. I've played 6 1/2 rounds and not once was I even allowed to rake a bunker because we had to take cadddies everytime. They absolutely make you take a caddy especially if you aren't a member.

I thought the same thing and I texted Nathan to see if he ever Played sans(God, I love using this word as it makes me sound more articulate than I am) caddie however he hasn't gotten back to me.

 

I thought that a member(has to be on premises, not necessarily in your group) and a caddie was a pre-req

 

Hell, if ya stay outa the rough, keep the ball below the hole and have no three-putts, Oakmont ain't shat

 

Great pics BTW!

 

Did anyone comment about ya takin em?

 

My Best,

RP

 

Cameras are allowed. Just no video or phones.

[spooky]

I played the course twice from the members tees when I was about a 15-17 handicap. I scored 85 and 87. Granted this is not a Sunday set-up from the back tees but the course is much more score-able for hacks than Wingedfoot or Pine Valley. Wide-open driving, no forced carries etc.

 

I guess that's why they have member's tees.

 

I've got to say that if the greens were actually the same as the way they have them set up during the tournament and you had no course knowledge (and particularly no first-hand knowledge of the greens) then I'd be very surprised if there were no 3-putts, no bad chips, no approaches that didn't catch the water, etc - all the things we see the best in the world do when they go there. A scratch player saying he wouldn't get worse than a bogey... righto. Even the week before or after the greens aren't going to be the same. I seem to remember Curtis Strange opening with an 80 one year (and he was good enough to come back for a second-place finish), but not a WRX scratch player, even though scratch isn't even close to being good enough for the tour.

[SurfDuffer]

I realize it is a mythical course but I don't believe it is mythically difficult. Legit scratch who plays regularly from long yardages on a challenging course should have no problem........especially playing with a laser in hand.

[Mcgeeno]

I agree.

 

And I have never hit a putt on 13 stimp greens. But I have rolled 11-12 plenty and I know I could adjust. It's not like I forget how to roll a golf ball online because it's a 15 stimp green. I'd just hit it softer lol. I would assume most scratch or close have hit some wild undulations on various greens across the planet.

 

The way it sounds from the doubters is like all these scratch golfers who are accomplished and have likely hit putts on hundreds of courses would just all of a sudden have their brain turn to mush and not be able to withstand 3 putting every hole because the greens are super fast.

[VOX]

I played the course twice from the members tees when I was about a 15-17 handicap. I scored 85 and 87. Granted this is not a Sunday set-up from the back tees but the course is much more score-able for hacks than Wingedfoot or Pine Valley. Wide-open driving, no forced carries etc.

 

I guess that's why they have member's tees.

 

I've got to say that if the greens were actually the same as the way they have them set up during the tournament and you had no course knowledge (and particularly no first-hand knowledge of the greens) then I'd be very surprised if there were no 3-putts, no bad chips, no approaches that didn't catch the water, etc - all the things we see the best in the world do when they go there. A scratch player saying he wouldn't get worse than a bogey... righto. Even the week before or after the greens aren't going to be the same. I seem to remember Curtis Strange opening with an 80 one year (and he was good enough to come back for a second-place finish), but not a WRX scratch player, even though scratch isn't even close to being good enough for the tour.

 

You may notice a slight difference between the normal tees and the Masters tees.

[golfer07840]

I mentioned this earlier in the thread but they literally did the golf digest US open challenge for a few years, at courses like Bethpage from the US open tees the week before the tournament.

 

Romo shot 84 at Torrey, rothlesberger shot an 81 at Bethpage as a 3 index. Michael Jordan, who everyone assumes is a vanity cap shot an 86.

 

The following year at pebble Mark Wahlberg who is a 14 index broke 100.

 

Maybe one day Augusta would do a challenge (lol). But either were saying Augusta is way more challenging than the above courses or the evidence seems to suggest 85 is possible

According to another to another thread here in WRX, Pebble Beach is an obsolete course because of the ball going too far. :rolleyes:

 

Where is that thread?

It is here: http://www.golfwrx.com/forums/index.php?/topic/1527076-The-Ball-Goes-Too-Far

[golfer07840]

Could a male scratch golfer beat an LPGA player if the match was at Augusta?

Lmao....

[cjgann07]

I think it just depends on green speeds and how well your friend can get up and down. A lot of people have now idea how angulated Augusta is. I would say if he would play very VERY well to break 80. Its not a overly long course. If your misses are in the correct spots it makes it a lot easier.

[Guia]

The BS just keeps getting deeper.

[denvergolf]

Wait can we clarify here, are we talking tournament "conditions" only, or an actual tournament with fans?

 

I played Torrey south a few weeks before the tournament when the rough was in, from the one up tees and shot 81 with new clubs and didn't hit it super well. Qmany shot 69 that day as a +1.

 

Obviously Augusta is harder but we're talking shooting 84 here not winning a tournament and unless I'm mistaken it's not even in front of fans

 

I played Torrey South in the summer of 2006 when they were "testing" the rough for the open. Greens were rolling at 11 and I shot 39 front 44 back from the tips (11 playing at 245 and 12 was 507). I just graduated from highschool and didn't have a HI at the time...probably a 5 or 6 as I played two years of JUCO golf at "scratch." I was surprised how easy it was. It was lonnnngg, but not tricky by any means. My solid short game and good driving game made it play "easy." I bet that ANGC isn't much different and most people know the course (where to miss it) because they've seen it so much on TV. I honestly think I would have a shot at 85 and I'm not at the caliber I was in college. I would put money on him breaking 80 if he is truly a "tournament scratch."

 

Yeah the length and rough seem to be the real defence. Greens were not crazy and everything is right in front of you. The rough on 7 was like knee length and I only hit one fairway all day!

 

Even from 6800 with one fairway, I thought 81 was pretty good. Lol

 

I was interviewed by callaway after the round (it was part of the WRX trip) and told them I wished they had fit me for a lawn mower

Was that after you put the Epic in the bag? I bet they loved 1 fairway. Ha ha just kidding...

[aabcuue]

 

 

AN still wouldn't be the toughest in NA. There is a course in Hawaii that has to regularly fix stuff to lower its rating to 156. Its original rating was 180+. Think of landing zones in rain forest amongst the lava field.

 

Ben's round was very close to 02 Open conditions. Ben is not typical AM as he hits 300+ and regularly plays Oakmont. He was a 4 then and had a lingering injury.

 

Fwiw, Black in 02 had harder conditions than the Barclays usually.

 

Still think 09 Open conditions were worse after rain rl thicken up & raised the fescue.

 

Maximum slope is 155.

 

Only in theory, in practicality, no. A friend is an USGA course rater. Every course gets visited multiple times by a team of different types of players at different times of the year.

 

After the 1st visit, there have been multiple courses over 155 slope. All have made some of suggested changes to lower rating to 150-155slope. Not all changes that are proposed will seem obvious to reduce slope.

 

Major tournament courses are definitely over 155slope. Many of these courses in normal conditions are in 145-155slope. Black from the regular tips before the multiple US Open, FedEx Playoffs hardening is 152 7468. The Tournament tips is 7550+yds.

 

Normal fescue that is maybe a ft. became 2+ft off the fairway and 4ft deep from 5ft off the fairway in the Open. Its not as deep for the FedEx Playoffs.

 

The semi-wide 40+yd wide fairways were narrowed to the 20s.

 

Regular carries to fairway were created &/or lengthened to 290yds in spots. Yes, many pros complained as they couldn't reach the fairway w/ their driver.

[aabcuue]

Friend and I were having a discussion. He says he could do it and would not only break 85, but 80 as well!

Stipulations are no caddie, no cart, no walking the course beforehand, and 1 hour warmup before the round. Sunday tournament conditions, from the back tees. He said he wouldn't make a double bogey, and would birdie #13. What do you all think?

Could a high school kicker make a 35 yard field goal?

Friend and I were having a discussion. He says he could do it and would not only make it from 35, but 50 as well! Stipulations are Lambeau Field in December, 50,000 fans, 20 degrees with -15 windchill, 45 mph headwind, and you can't wear shoes. What do you all think?

 

Both of these scenarios started out as yes absolutely, until the stipulations are added in.

 

Even NFL pro kickers aren't hitting a 50yd kick in a 45mph headwind and esp in a -15F windchill. Don't think there has been a game w/ 45mph wind & esp. that cold.

 

Check kicker/coach quotes from last year NFL playoffs. Kickers called football a rock that was is unkickable beyond 35yds.

Fyi, game time conditions 0F and 10-15mph wind.

[Golfjack]

From Masters Tournament tees I'd say no freakin way LOL. Zero. Unless your scratch buddy drives it 300 on average. And even then he's probably hitting under 80 2 out of 10 times.

[benno_r]

From Masters Tournament tees I'd say no freakin way LOL. Zero. Unless your scratch buddy drives it 300 on average. And even then he's probably hitting under 80 2 out of 10 times.

 

So you admit it's possible? 2 times out of 10.

 

I'd disagree that's "no freakin way".

[Golfjack]

From Masters Tournament tees I'd say no freakin way LOL. Zero. Unless your scratch buddy drives it 300 on average. And even then he's probably hitting under 80 2 out of 10 times.

 

So you admit it's possible? 2 times out of 10.

 

I'd disagree that's "no freakin way".

 

Haha yeah I don't think the scratch buddy averages over 300, so I'm thinking it's maybe 0.5 out of 10. Either way a scratch golfer is pretty good so if you give them 10 times I do think it can happen a half time. Unless the scratch golfer players tournaments where it's usually only 6000 yards and you're asking him to play 7400 then he probably doesn't have the game. But a tournament scratch golfer isn't someone to be sneezed at. First try though almost guaranteed to be over 80 since like another poster said the par is basically a 78.

[Golferbeast1985]

Has anyone played Augusta? Is it as hard as the commentators say?

 

Has anyone played Augusta? Is it as hard as the commentators say?

[Bye]

Maybe he breaks 85,, no way he breaks 80. And no way no doubles. The average score in the first round this year was 75 for the best players in the world who Will have had several practice rounds and most will have played in the tournament before.

 

I doubt many scratch golfers will have played on greens much faster than 11 on the stimp, get them to 13 and add in the slopes.....

 

 

 

 

 

[drmargolis11]

My money is on the over. Carrying your bag on that hilly course and you will be worn out after nine. There is no way he makes the turn and continues to play in any decent form. Back nine shoots at least bogey golf and 40 / 45 is reasonable. Love to get that wager!!!

[hybrid25]

Are any of the tees 5800 - 6000 yards so I could have a stab at it?

[cbole22]

I think he would be able to shoot 85 if the putter is on that day

[mark m]

You have to laugh at the cockamamie conditions. But despite this, here is my response. A big factor would be the distance he hits the ball off the tee. The USGA says a "scratch player" hits his tee balls 250 yards on average. I believe this means he carries it around 235-240. While this distance holds true for some scratch level players (I know a few) - I don't think it is representative of an average or median for players between +1 and 1. If you look at various charts which have been posted here at the wrx, a club head speed of around 95-100 would produce a drive of 240 carry. Does this club head speed reflect the scratch players you know? Consider Langer on pgatour.com. Based on very limited stats, it shows his driver swing speed at around 102. His average is somewhere around 270-277 (probably due to firm fairways). Augusta is tough for him due to the length. He is 59 years old and obviously an awesome player. So if the hypothetical scratch player has a driver speed of 108+ I like his chances to break 85 if he plays good or just average. He would just need to avoid disaster on 12 and 15. Those 2 holes have penal elements that cannot be avoided. Outside of that, as others have said, you have wide pathways on most of the holes and no deep rough. Augusta has basically no OB and no water hazards that you can hit into on drives on par 4 holes. Therefore he should be near or on most of the greens in regulation with a decent day off the tee. However, if he played the Bear Trap or some track with water and or OB all over, then some slight miss hits could lead to big numbers on numerous holes because it is so penal.

[kgeisler13]

I think its possible as long as he does not have many 3 putts. It all depends on the game he has that day to. If hes striking it well I'm sure he can break 85, if he is struggling its going to be a long day.

[RobotDoctor]

"... Stipulations are no caddie, no cart, no walking the course beforehand, and 1 hour warmup before the round. Sunday tournament conditions, from the back tees. ..."

 

Under these conditions it is doubtful to break 85. Add local knowledge of a caddie and probably. If there is any course that course knowledge is vital ANGC is it. Yes, we have all seen the course on television and "know" this course intimately. Some of us have been luck enough to attend at least one round during The Masters tournament. Even fewer have been lucky enough to play the course (non tournament conditions). The hypothetical question had a stipulation of tournament tees at tournament conditions. For a first time player with no actual course knowledge and no caddie I say scoring 85 would be a monumental task. This isn't the average golf course here under any condition but especially under those conditions.

[J_Tizzle]

I'd say its possible for sure. Partially depends on what type of scratch golfer he is honestly.

 

If he plays 1 course all the time and is a scratch there and never plays in any stroke play type tournaments, then I'd say probably not.

 

If he's a scratch golfer that does local stroke play style events played at several courses where he has to play by the rules and putt everything out, maybe.

 

I know lots of golfers who bomb it off the tee and play a shorter course that are around scratch, but if they play another course thats not all predicated by their ability to hit wild bombs off the tee they're not close to a scratch. So is his his scratch driven by his length? His short game? He just a really solid player thats pretty good at everything? Hows his course management? So many variables.

 

If you ask "can a scratch D2 college player with a 72 scoring avg through his travel tournaments" break 85, I'd say thats a lot more likely than your every day scratch at his home course.

 

Edit: plus I think a big contributing factor is, is he just trying to break 85 or is he trying to shoot his best round possible? Allows him to play away from most trouble, take his licks and make a few bogeys/doubles while just trying to par a few holes. Plus Augusta Sunday pins are pretty helpful from what it looks like. Lots of pins where the ball funnels 70ft to where the pin is actually at. But sure, he'll have some flubs and probably hit a few putts off the green, but I think its doable.

[Shilgy]

AN still wouldn't be the toughest in NA. There is a course in Hawaii that has to regularly fix stuff to lower its rating to 156. Its original rating was 180+. Think of landing zones in rain forest amongst the lava field.

 

Ben's round was very close to 02 Open conditions. Ben is not typical AM as he hits 300+ and regularly plays Oakmont. He was a 4 then and had a lingering injury.

 

Fwiw, Black in 02 had harder conditions than the Barclays usually.

 

Still think 09 Open conditions were worse after rain rl thicken up & raised the fescue.

 

Maximum slope is 155.

 

Only in theory, in practicality, no. A friend is an USGA course rater. Every course gets visited multiple times by a team of different types of players at different times of the year.

 

After the 1st visit, there have been multiple courses over 155 slope. All have made some of suggested changes to lower rating to 150-155slope. Not all changes that are proposed will seem obvious to reduce slope.

 

Major tournament courses are definitely over 155slope. Many of these courses in normal conditions are in 145-155slope. Black from the regular tips before the multiple US Open, FedEx Playoffs hardening is 152 7468. The Tournament tips is 7550+yds.

 

Normal fescue that is maybe a ft. became 2+ft off the fairway and 4ft deep from 5ft off the fairway in the Open. Its not as deep for the FedEx Playoffs.

 

The semi-wide 40+yd wide fairways were narrowed to the 20s.

 

Regular carries to fairway were created &/or lengthened to 290yds in spots. Yes, many pros complained as they couldn't reach the fairway w/ their driver.

You can say that a course should be rated over 155 but the system stops at 155. Are you saying the rater made a change or the course made changes to get under 155? Seems odd as the maximum rating is 155.

[Shilgy]

I'd say its possible for sure. Partially depends on what type of scratch golfer he is honestly.

 

If he plays 1 course all the time and is a scratch there and never plays in any stroke play type tournaments, then I'd say probably not.

 

If he's a scratch golfer that does local stroke play style events played at several courses where he has to play by the rules and putt everything out, maybe.

 

I know lots of golfers who bomb it off the tee and play a shorter course that are around scratch, but if they play another course thats not all predicated by their ability to hit wild bombs off the tee they're not close to a scratch. So is his his scratch driven by his length? His short game? He just a really solid player thats pretty good at everything? Hows his course management? So many variables.

 

If you ask "can a scratch D2 college player with a 72 scoring avg through his travel tournaments" break 85, I'd say thats a lot more likely than your every day scratch at his home course.

 

Edit: plus I think a big contributing factor is, is he just trying to break 85 or is he trying to shoot his best round possible? Allows him to play away from most trouble, take his licks and make a few bogeys/doubles while just trying to par a few holes. Plus Augusta Sunday pins are pretty helpful from what it looks like. Lots of pins where the ball funnels 70ft to where the pin is actually at. But sure, he'll have some flubs and probably hit a few putts off the green, but I think its doable.

Again we are having scratch definition issues. Is a scratch a player that shoots par everywhere or a zero handicap? You example is most definitely not a zero handicap. Based on course ratings he is more likely a +3 to +4.

[zdob3]

Does he get a greens book and yardage book? Rangefinder?

[mark m]

Does he get a greens book and yardage book? Rangefinder?

 

Are you kidding? C'mon man!

 

He will be monitored with a shot clock and have horse flies buzzing around all day!

[TheCityGame]

Does he get a greens book and yardage book? Rangefinder?

Presumably, he's allowed to pace off yardages, so you could give him a yardage book to speed things up a little.