Could a Scratch Golfer break 85 at Augusta?

[jeffreyl]

Attended the Masters for 4 days in 1995. I remember coming home and suggesting that Scratch and Club pros might have a tough time breaking 100 when setup for the tournament. The greens and undulations were unbelievable to me. Whatever your handicap you need to be able to control the spin from off the green to keep a ball on the green and putting the greens at tournament speed with tournament pins would, in my opinion, be very difficult.

I have attended other majors and tour events, and have putted fast, difficult greens and never have seen anything like Augusta.

 

It is interesting to me to read all the opinions, much like the thread "can a 4 beat an LPGA pro?", personally believe that if you have not played with or walked with a touring Professional, your perceptions might be flawed. I have played with and walked with and their skill level is amazing. I regularly played with a + 5 that was a D1 College golfer. He played against Charles Howell lll and others and his words, when asked about turning Pro were " I am not good enough".

 

Threads like this are simply conjecture, we all have opinions....the outcomes will most likely never happen!

[benno_r]

thanks for proving my point. Youre not zipping any wedge to 4 feet consistently at augusta otherwise youd be on tour. Turns out your front was flukey if you were playing par 4s like that. You need to hit it 270 to get around the corner at the first on augusta. Mark Omeara and langer made doubles there hitting woods into that hole, I think theyre slighlty better than you (maybe) but youd beat them surely ;) after sizing them up like you did with the midams you mentioned!

 

O'meara and Langer are making doubles - under the pump in the largest Tourny in the world - playing for actual cash and trophies.

 

Not quite the same amount of pressure as a guy having a casual round by himself with no one watching. Very different scenarios that is not really proving the point.

 

Yeah, theres no pressure in going from playing 6500/6700 yard courses with 10.5 greens to augusta...

 

What pressure is there? "Here's a tough course go out and shoot 85 with no one to watch you and nothing on the line". Hardly comparable to playing the Masters against 100 other flushers, being on TV and in front of big crowds, and playing for big $$$ and a trophy.

 

Augusta is just a golf course, and a great one at that, but I don't believe it to be some impenetrable fortress that not a single scratch marker can conquer.

 

Yeah, just a course, no pressure at all, completely comfortable walk in the park... Have you ever played golf before? seriously?

Yes, a few thousand rounds.

[RobotDoctor]

my good friend was a local legend and the best amateur golfer ever produced by my country and as an amateur won our national open in 1966 and was invited to the Masters that year..

 

iirc he also was the first ever amateur from Asia invited to the Masters..

 

in his first practice round he told me he hit all 18 greens in regulation including putting for eagles on 13 and 5 and shot 79.

 

he said the undulations on some greens were so great you would think they buried an elephant in there..

 

he made the cut in in 1966 and 1967 but failed the third time after shooting 83 in the 2nd round..

 

at that time the cut for amateurs was not the same as for the pros as i think they wanted a minimum amount of amateurs to play the last 2 rounds although i don't remember how many--maybe 4 or 6..

 

he had also represented our country in the World Cup--or Canada Cup at the time--with our best pro at least once and won our national amateur 11 times and low amateur in our national open at least 8 times..

 

he was about a +4 or +5 handicap in his prime...

 

PS: in 1991 when i was 45 and he was 51 we played 2 straight weekends at a course he was managing and i outplayed him 71-76 and 76-77..... and of course he told me he was not feeling well at the time and initially jokingly refused to sign the scorecard but when i told him i had 3 witnesses as we were a 5-some he finally did and i still have it!!...

Wow, I could not find anything about separate cuts and don't recall this. Do you have anything you can point me to about this? They have awarded the low amateur trophy to the low amateur that makes the cut since 1952. Until recently there were just a few years that none made the cut.

 

 

i was doing all of this from memory and could be mistaken on the amateur cut then so i googled the person involved--luis "golem" silverio--and got some varying results..

 

one article reported he missed the cut on the first occasion but was invited again the next year where he did make the cut..

 

another mentioned he made the cut the first time was invited again the next year and missed the cut .

 

in any case my friend passed away in 2008 at the age of 70..

 

i do remember his telling me about playing a practice round with the US team in the 1960 World Amateur in Merion and he wasn't that impressed with Jack Nicklaus then...

 

and btw he was not only the first Asian amateur invited to the Masters but was actually the first Asian golfer invited..

 

I guess your friend was a poor assessment of talent. Even back in the late 50s and 1960, Jack was very well regarded. Even Mr. Hogan thought much of Jack after the US Open at Cherry Hills. That was before the World Amateur I believe.

 

 

it was more of an ego thing i think..and his was as big as it gets.

 

all great golfers are quietly cocky and will never openly admit anyone is better than them..

 

It's one thing to be cocky, it's another thing to be a fool. Sounds to me your friend thought more of himself and was past cocky bordering on obnoxious.

[RobotDoctor]

Well, this thread is quickly turning into a "How big my Johnson is" thread. Now it's getting ridiculous. Too much drama from grown men. Unbelievable. :rolleyes:

[Obee]

Well, this thread is quickly turning into a "How big my Johnson is" thread. Now it's getting ridiculous. Too much drama from grown men. Unbelievable. :rolleyes:

 

It has nothing to do with that.

 

I've been on this board for quite some time. I contribute a lot.

 

I'm sick of idiots who think they know golf. Come play at a real players' club where pros play. Ask them if they are 15 shots PER ROUND better than a true scratch player whose index over a whole year averages scratch.

 

Many of you are not saying 15 shots. I get that. But I have heard that number bandied about over the years many, many times. Those guys need to be called out.

 

I am just old enough, and drunk enough to do it!!!! LOL

 

Richard, where are you?!?! LOL!!

[Obee]

Attended the Masters for 4 days in 1995. I remember coming home and suggesting that Scratch and Club pros might have a tough time breaking 100 when setup for the tournament. The greens and undulations were unbelievable to me. Whatever your handicap you need to be able to control the spin from off the green to keep a ball on the green and putting the greens at tournament speed with tournament pins would, in my opinion, be very difficult.

I have attended other majors and tour events, and have putted fast, difficult greens and never have seen anything like Augusta.

 

It is interesting to me to read all the opinions, much like the thread "can a 4 beat an LPGA pro?", personally believe that if you have not played with or walked with a touring Professional, your perceptions might be flawed. I have played with and walked with and their skill level is amazing. I regularly played with a + 5 that was a D1 College golfer. He played against Charles Howell lll and others and his words, when asked about turning Pro were " I am not good enough".

 

Threads like this are simply conjecture, we all have opinions....the outcomes will most likely never happen!

 

How many people on this thread that are contributing do you think have not at least walked with a pro?

[Forged4ever]

my good friend was a local legend and the best amateur golfer ever produced by my country and as an amateur won our national open in 1966 and was invited to the Masters that year..

 

iirc he also was the first ever amateur from Asia invited to the Masters..

 

in his first practice round he told me he hit all 18 greens in regulation including putting for eagles on 13 and 5 and shot 79.

 

he said the undulations on some greens were so great you would think they buried an elephant in there..

 

he made the cut in in 1966 and 1967 but failed the third time after shooting 83 in the 2nd round..

 

at that time the cut for amateurs was not the same as for the pros as i think they wanted a minimum amount of amateurs to play the last 2 rounds although i don't remember how many--maybe 4 or 6..

 

he had also represented our country in the World Cup--or Canada Cup at the time--with our best pro at least once and won our national amateur 11 times and low amateur in our national open at least 8 times..

 

he was about a +4 or +5 handicap in his prime...

 

PS: in 1991 when i was 45 and he was 51 we played 2 straight weekends at a course he was managing and i outplayed him 71-76 and 76-77..... and of course he told me he was not feeling well at the time and initially jokingly refused to sign the scorecard but when i told him i had 3 witnesses as we were a 5-some he finally did and i still have it!!...

Wow, I could not find anything about separate cuts and don't recall this. Do you have anything you can point me to about this? They have awarded the low amateur trophy to the low amateur that makes the cut since 1952. Until recently there were just a few years that none made the cut.

Great stories JM!!

 

Yea, I never heard of two separate cuts and as Shilgs pointed out, since 1952 Low Am gets the trophy below however to win it they must make the 36 hole cut-

 

Thanks for sharing JM?

 

My Best,

RP

[Titleist 670]

Not only could Obee not sniff 85 at Augusta, he'd be lucky to break 100. Par 72, and let's get some additional facts here:

 

1. Greens are lightning fast, unlike anything a scratch player has ever witnessed or will witness again. Add 5 strokes.

2. Billy Payne just retired, so the course will be in disrepair and play much tougher. Add 3 strokes.

3. Obee admits he is not built like a linebacker. Add 5 strokes.

4. Obee plays money games with Mickelson, who hasn't won on Tour since 2013, and Fowler, who has never won a major. Essentially he's playing against journeymen. Add 3 strokes.

5. 1 hour warm-up, no caddie. Add 3 strokes.

6. The fake bird noise they pipe in on the telecast would not be there in real life. Hard adjustment. Add 2 strokes.

7. He needs to break 85. 8+5 = 13, which is incredibly unlucky. Add 3 strokes.

8. Tiger Woods, perhaps the greatest golfer of all time, has not won there since 2005. Add 5 strokes.

9. Obee is not WRX long. 235 carry? That's a soft 9-iron for JonesScott. Add 7 strokes.

 

That's an average of 108 by my math. So yeah, 85 isn't happening. Pretty clear-cut if you ask me.

[Mcgeeno]

Not trying to stir the pot more as its getting heated but are the guys who are saying "a scratch wouldnt shoot 85" actually scratch?

 

From following this whole thread and commenting a bit I get the feeling that many of the scratch guys believe they could do it but the guys who dont think it could happen are higher caps?

 

I mean I side with Obee on this one. No cameras. No galleries. No pressure. Even as a non-scratch 2 capper I don't see the problem?

 

Its not like you forget to putt. Sure they are the toughest, fastest greens etc. But I'm not gonna have 40 putts. There is no OB and Augusta is admittedly forgiving from the tee compared to many courses good players play regularly this is just common fact. Minimal rough. The course rating says a scratch should get it done. We all know the holes better than any other course in the world.

 

Just a vibe I'm getting. Mid Cappers saying no and legit scratch guys believing in their own ability to get the job done. Its an 85. Not a 72.

[Shilgy]

 

That's the thing, bud! I'm not anymore. I will bet you that my average cap this year was closer to scratch than it was to +1. Probably average cap for the whole year was +0.3 to +0.5?

 

Pretty darn close to scratch!

Yeah yeah, +1.1 :) But... As Richard would say there's pluses going up and pluses going down. And you have been there done that at a much higher level which leaves you able to handle some situations better than even the other +1's. And I'm guessing because of that your anti handicap would be lower than most with the same cap.

[jslane57]

Would a true scratch break 85? Well, they'd sure be disappointed if they didn't. That doesn't mean there isn't plenty of disappointment to go around in this game. And Augusta sight unseen on Tournament Sunday would be something wouldn't it? I'd put the over/under closer to 81. I think the real fun would be an 18 HCP out there. Could they even finish the course without picking up, or like putting over Ray's Creek? Lol...

[Obee]

Would a true scratch break 85? Well, they'd sure be disappointed if they didn't. That doesn't mean there isn't plenty of disappointment to go around in this game. And Augusta sight unseen on Tournament Sunday would be something wouldn't it? I'd put the over/under closer to 81. I think the real fun would be an 18 HCP out there. Could they even finish the course without picking up, or like putting over Ray's Creek? Lol...

 

81?

 

Yes, now there's a betting number! :-)

[Orville]

I've been to the Masters a few times and the hardest part of the course you don't see on TV are 1, depth of bunkers (especially the fairway bunkers, you're talking 10ft or so, hole 5 left side could be 15ft?) and 2) the undulation of the greens. Hole 6 green has at least a 6ft uphill slope that is immediate. Otherwise I've been right on those greens and they roll quite true I believe. Maybe the pros are just really impressing me with their ability to make things look silly easy on the greens though haha, but if you are a good putter/reader of greens I doubt you'll three putt much there.

 

I suppose I didn't anser the question my bad but I do think a scratch golder can play well there. The hardest part about Augusta that isn't mentioned much is the distance. You need to be 275 at least off the tee. Forget the name of the guy that was paired with Day this year, but he's just a long time member and he plays when an off number makes the cut. He doesn't hit it real far, he putts well, and most importantly he stays away from the bunkers.

[aabcuue]

"... Stipulations are no caddie, no cart, no walking the course beforehand, and 1 hour warmup before the round. Sunday tournament conditions, from the back tees. ..."

 

Under these conditions it is doubtful to break 85. Add local knowledge of a caddie and probably. If there is any course that course knowledge is vital ANGC is it. Yes, we have all seen the course on television and "know" this course intimately. Some of us have been luck enough to attend at least one round during The Masters tournament. Even fewer have been lucky enough to play the course (non tournament conditions). The hypothetical question had a stipulation of tournament tees at tournament conditions. For a first time player with no actual course knowledge and no caddie I say scoring 85 would be a monumental task. This isn't the average golf course here under any condition but especially under those conditions.

 

Of course its doable, not unlikely but not a given either.

 

As a non-member said player would be required to play with a member if not the pro thus negating stipulation for no caddy.

 

Actual tournament scratch players are used to fast 11-13 stimp greens as thats common tournaments setup especially on the state or mini-tour level.

 

Short tournament players are hitting 280 and longer, at least equal to pga tour length. Most players will have 1or more weaknesses in their game. Most often don't have either consistency or short game recovery strength of a + or pro.

[J13]

I still don't get the Augusta pick. Yes a REAL scratch player could break 85 when they are playing normal/well (of course they could on a bad day). Regardless the US Open would be a much harder test to break 85 for a scratch player. I've walked and played with touring pro's and they are no doubt the best of the best but they aren't 15 strokes better then a real scratch player that's insane.

[BloctonGolf11]

Okay I am going to go out on a limb here and try to add some statistics to go along with my complete anecdotal argument.

 

The fourth round scoring average at this years Masters was 71.9 so we can basically say Par was the "average" score for the top players in the professional world who came out and made the cut. So his claim is an 80 would only be 8 strokes difference off the average and an 85 13 strokes off the average of the greatest players in the world who live and breath golf as a profession.

 

Now lets take some anecdotal evidence mixed with stats. Your friend is a scratch golfer in tournament conditions. Smylie Kaufman came out to the local course that I play constantly, (my son also takes lessons there) the day after our State Amateur was played. Similar conditions (sight unseen, short warm up) and shot a 65 (-7) from the back tees on what would be tougher conditions than your average tours. Kaufmann is a PGA Tour player but outside of the made cut at the Masters last year has never made another cut at a Major. On Sunday of the Amateur (which is comprised of seriously talented golfers and a slew of Division 1 players) only 23 players broke Par. This was with countless practice rounds and a caddy.

 

So a PGA Tour Pro who is not in the upper crust of the game shot 7 strokes better than Par without difficulty on a course comparable to the toughest tournament conditions the average non professional player plays.

 

The level between a "scratch" and a PGA Tour Player making the cut at the Masters is a bigger difference than that of a scratch and 15 capper in my opinion.

 

I believe 80 is out of the question. Not enough birdie holes and way to many holes begging for a doubles and possibly triples without prior knowledge of those greens.

 

I would put 85 as maybe a 1/5 chance at best for a non professional playing Sunday conditions at Augusta. I think a 90 is much more likely.

 

Honestly, saying no doubles shows a complete lack or respect and a person who is boasting. I would say guaranteeing no doubles on ANY PGA Sunday set up is a ridiculous statement from a non-professional. To say that about a Major without walking the course is simply asinine.

 

Just my two cents.

 

Your two cents is noted.

 

If you think Rickie Fowler (or any top 20/100/200 in the world pro) would play me and give me (or any of 50 tournament ams I play with on a regular basis) 15 shots on ANY golf course in the world, I would truly love to buy some of what you are smoking or injecting. Read some of my other (verifiable) threads and then come back here and respond.

 

I play these guys. For Money. They give me 4 a side if we play the same tees. 1 or two a side if I get a tee bump or two.

 

I would play them for everything I own, and everything my friends own, getting 15 shots.

 

You simply do not know what you are talking about. Step away from the keyboard. You think you know. You simply do not know.

 

I love this stuff… So funny…

 

You are not operating by the terms of the question. This is not a normal bet on a normal course. If you think a scratch could sight unseen with no practice round and no walking the course and stay with a top 20 player on a Sunday tournament condition course, let alone a Major Sunday condition course, and they have not played professional golf you are absolutely fooling yourself. On a normal track with practice that they knew could a scratch player stay within striking distance of a PGA player? Sure. However, that is not what the OP's friend was claiming. Again, I go back to the most ludicrous statement in the bet, that he would not double bogey having not walked nor played the course. That kind of arrogance is ridiculous. No offense playing Pro-Ams with guys, while impressive and cool, has little bearing to the OP's question.

 

As well, you said they give you 4 a side, so 8 strokes on a course you know. The average in RD 4 at the Masters was 72. So you really think there are not 5 more bad strokes for a scratch to find on Augusta going in sight unseen, no caddie, and no practice round to throw 85 completely out the window based just on that? Not to mention 4 a side basically puts 80 on the table as a good standard on a course you know in non-Sunday conditions.

 

Again, I am not saying a scratch could not shot 80-85 at AN. However, according to the OP's bet sight unseen, no practice round, no caddy, and with Sunday tournament conditions takes it to a different level and makes 85 a very tough number and 80 basically unattainable.

[Obee]

Okay I am going to go out on a limb here and try to add some statistics to go along with my complete anecdotal argument.

 

The fourth round scoring average at this years Masters was 71.9 so we can basically say Par was the "average" score for the top players in the professional world who came out and made the cut. So his claim is an 80 would only be 8 strokes difference off the average and an 85 13 strokes off the average of the greatest players in the world who live and breath golf as a profession.

 

Now lets take some anecdotal evidence mixed with stats. Your friend is a scratch golfer in tournament conditions. Smylie Kaufman came out to the local course that I play constantly, (my son also takes lessons there) the day after our State Amateur was played. Similar conditions (sight unseen, short warm up) and shot a 65 (-7) from the back tees on what would be tougher conditions than your average tours. Kaufmann is a PGA Tour player but outside of the made cut at the Masters last year has never made another cut at a Major. On Sunday of the Amateur (which is comprised of seriously talented golfers and a slew of Division 1 players) only 23 players broke Par. This was with countless practice rounds and a caddy.

 

So a PGA Tour Pro who is not in the upper crust of the game shot 7 strokes better than Par without difficulty on a course comparable to the toughest tournament conditions the average non professional player plays.

 

The level between a "scratch" and a PGA Tour Player making the cut at the Masters is a bigger difference than that of a scratch and 15 capper in my opinion.

 

I believe 80 is out of the question. Not enough birdie holes and way to many holes begging for a doubles and possibly triples without prior knowledge of those greens.

 

I would put 85 as maybe a 1/5 chance at best for a non professional playing Sunday conditions at Augusta. I think a 90 is much more likely.

 

Honestly, saying no doubles shows a complete lack or respect and a person who is boasting. I would say guaranteeing no doubles on ANY PGA Sunday set up is a ridiculous statement from a non-professional. To say that about a Major without walking the course is simply asinine.

 

Just my two cents.

 

Your two cents is noted.

 

If you think Rickie Fowler (or any top 20/100/200 in the world pro) would play me and give me (or any of 50 tournament ams I play with on a regular basis) 15 shots on ANY golf course in the world, I would truly love to buy some of what you are smoking or injecting. Read some of my other (verifiable) threads and then come back here and respond.

 

I play these guys. For Money. They give me 4 a side if we play the same tees. 1 or two a side if I get a tee bump or two.

 

I would play them for everything I own, and everything my friends own, getting 15 shots.

 

You simply do not know what you are talking about. Step away from the keyboard. You think you know. You simply do not know.

 

I love this stuff… So funny…

 

You are not operating by the terms of the question. This is not a normal bet on a normal course. If you think a scratch could sight unseen with no practice round and no walking the course and stay with a top 20 player on a Sunday tournament condition course, let alone a Major Sunday condition course, and they have not played professional golf you are absolutely fooling yourself. On a normal track with practice that they knew could a scratch player stay within striking distance of a PGA player? Sure. However, that is not what the OP's friend was claiming. Again, I go back to the most ludicrous statement in the bet, that he would not double bogey having not walked nor played the course. That kind of arrogance is ridiculous. No offense playing Pro-Ams with guys, while impressive and cool, has little bearing to the OP's question.

 

As well, you said they give you 4 a side, so 8 strokes on a course you know. The average in RD 4 at the Masters was 72. So you really think there are not 5 more bad strokes for a scratch to find on Augusta going in sight unseen, no caddie, and no practice round to throw 85 completely out the window based just on that? Not to mention 4 a side basically puts 80 on the table as a good standard on a course you know in non-Sunday conditions.

 

Again, I am not saying a scratch could not shot 80-85 at AN. However, according to the OP's bet sight unseen, no practice round, no caddy, and with Sunday tournament conditions takes it to a different level and makes 85 a very tough number and 80 basically unattainable.

 

Of course there "might be" 5 additional strokes out there.

 

I think you "might" also be overestimating the value of a practice round by at least 3 shots.

 

How many times have you lit up a course (even a "funky" one) with no practice round? I bet plenty.

 

And if you don't think I would be on Google Earth for a month before we play and have a Tour yardage book with green contours and pin placements memorized, you mistake me for some other kind of golfer who doesn't know what the hell he's doing, sir!! ;-)

 

Here's another way to look at this bet: Find another golf course where the pros' average score is close to that of Augusta (it won't be hard to find), and then give a good scratch player this bet. Torrey South? Right after the tournament? Same pins?

 

Been there. Done that. 78.

 

Byron Nelson Classic course, TPC Las Colinas? Probably too easy. Same thing, day after the tourney the year Dufner won. 8 of us play. Not one of us has seen the course except our host.

 

Best score 71 from a +3 (our host)

I shoot 74 as a +1 at the time

Everyone else is scratch to 2 and shoot 76-81, and two of them were so hung over they could barely stand.

 

I just will not back down here. I have experience and first hand knowledge of playing with the best players in the world. I have competed on Tour tracks in Tour condition and broken 80 both times, once with ease. And I get plenty of practice at a tough track: My home course hosts Q-school at 75.7/146. Ask Monte how tough it plays for Q-School.

 

The more I think about it, the more this bet just needs to happen. Let's find a tour venue that has a similar average field score as Augusta, and let's do this. We could chronicle it from start to finish. Really do it right. It would be a great experiment.

 

So many guys will have egg on their face....

 

My guess is that if we set this up, and you only had golfers whose average index OVER A WHOLE YEAR was between 0.5 and +0.5 you would have very few shoot 85 or above. Like if we had 20 guys maybe only one or two of them would shoot 85+

 

I am happy to stand up for my fellow true scratch golfers. Not reverse-bagger wannabees that show up and play qualifiers and shoot 92, but guys who turn in all scores, hurt or not, wind blowing 30 or calm, tournament round or casual. Those guys.

 

In fact, I'm fired up!!!

 

(Doing my best Belushi)

 

SCRATCH GOLFERS, DO YOU REMEMBER WHEN THE GERMANS BOMBED PEARL HARBOR?!?!

 

WELL IT'S PAYBACK TIME!!

 

SCRATCH GOLFERS, UNITE!!!!!

 

[runs out of room, fist aloft]

LET'S GOOOOOOOO!!!!!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[lowheel]

Okay I am going to go out on a limb here and try to add some statistics to go along with my complete anecdotal argument.

 

The fourth round scoring average at this years Masters was 71.9 so we can basically say Par was the "average" score for the top players in the professional world who came out and made the cut. So his claim is an 80 would only be 8 strokes difference off the average and an 85 13 strokes off the average of the greatest players in the world who live and breath golf as a profession.

 

Now lets take some anecdotal evidence mixed with stats. Your friend is a scratch golfer in tournament conditions. Smylie Kaufman came out to the local course that I play constantly, (my son also takes lessons there) the day after our State Amateur was played. Similar conditions (sight unseen, short warm up) and shot a 65 (-7) from the back tees on what would be tougher conditions than your average tours. Kaufmann is a PGA Tour player but outside of the made cut at the Masters last year has never made another cut at a Major. On Sunday of the Amateur (which is comprised of seriously talented golfers and a slew of Division 1 players) only 23 players broke Par. This was with countless practice rounds and a caddy.

 

So a PGA Tour Pro who is not in the upper crust of the game shot 7 strokes better than Par without difficulty on a course comparable to the toughest tournament conditions the average non professional player plays.

 

The level between a "scratch" and a PGA Tour Player making the cut at the Masters is a bigger difference than that of a scratch and 15 capper in my opinion.

 

I believe 80 is out of the question. Not enough birdie holes and way to many holes begging for a doubles and possibly triples without prior knowledge of those greens.

 

I would put 85 as maybe a 1/5 chance at best for a non professional playing Sunday conditions at Augusta. I think a 90 is much more likely.

 

Honestly, saying no doubles shows a complete lack or respect and a person who is boasting. I would say guaranteeing no doubles on ANY PGA Sunday set up is a ridiculous statement from a non-professional. To say that about a Major without walking the course is simply asinine.

 

Just my two cents.

 

Your two cents is noted.

 

If you think Rickie Fowler (or any top 20/100/200 in the world pro) would play me and give me (or any of 50 tournament ams I play with on a regular basis) 15 shots on ANY golf course in the world, I would truly love to buy some of what you are smoking or injecting. Read some of my other (verifiable) threads and then come back here and respond.

 

I play these guys. For Money. They give me 4 a side if we play the same tees. 1 or two a side if I get a tee bump or two.

 

I would play them for everything I own, and everything my friends own, getting 15 shots.

 

You simply do not know what you are talking about. Step away from the keyboard. You think you know. You simply do not know.

 

I love this stuff… So funny…

 

Wow, I guess denial isnt just a river in egypt... You shot 78 struggling to walk LACC from the tips in non tourney shape yet stand here saying you can hang with Ricky Fowler and he wouldnt dust you by at least 12-15 shots at the masters in sunday touney conditions ? pros give you 4 shots a side so 8 total over 18 to level the field and youre bragging about this? You remind me of the guy i played with down in TPC sawgrass a few years back whos a scratch and Vijay Singh who lives on the course joined us for a winter round ( grass/rough was dormant greens slow). he asked for 10 shots and played 2 sets of tees ahead of us except on 2 holes where the tess were being repaired ( the 16th & 17th ). Vijay giggled and said "just tee it up bro ive only got a few hours before i go"

I end up shooting 68 Vijay shoots 64 lipping out a 12 footer on 18th for birdie and our scratch shot 75. He was bragging the whole way into the clubhouse that he beat me and almost beat Vijay. I literally laughed in his face at the insanity of his thinking. Like i said Obee, you claim youre calling out others because " they dont know" but i truly believe your hubris is righting checks your game cant cash. This isnt a regular tour event at an easy course and yes for the 10th time the op's question and specific stipulations are clear. I would bet everything i own against you staying within 12-15 of Rickie Fowler in that scenario. Im sure youd have fun trying though until reality sets in and you realize "i guess im not as good as i thought i was" .Im enjoying the debate though carry on

[Obee]

Okay I am going to go out on a limb here and try to add some statistics to go along with my complete anecdotal argument.

 

The fourth round scoring average at this years Masters was 71.9 so we can basically say Par was the "average" score for the top players in the professional world who came out and made the cut. So his claim is an 80 would only be 8 strokes difference off the average and an 85 13 strokes off the average of the greatest players in the world who live and breath golf as a profession.

 

Now lets take some anecdotal evidence mixed with stats. Your friend is a scratch golfer in tournament conditions. Smylie Kaufman came out to the local course that I play constantly, (my son also takes lessons there) the day after our State Amateur was played. Similar conditions (sight unseen, short warm up) and shot a 65 (-7) from the back tees on what would be tougher conditions than your average tours. Kaufmann is a PGA Tour player but outside of the made cut at the Masters last year has never made another cut at a Major. On Sunday of the Amateur (which is comprised of seriously talented golfers and a slew of Division 1 players) only 23 players broke Par. This was with countless practice rounds and a caddy.

 

So a PGA Tour Pro who is not in the upper crust of the game shot 7 strokes better than Par without difficulty on a course comparable to the toughest tournament conditions the average non professional player plays.

 

The level between a "scratch" and a PGA Tour Player making the cut at the Masters is a bigger difference than that of a scratch and 15 capper in my opinion.

 

I believe 80 is out of the question. Not enough birdie holes and way to many holes begging for a doubles and possibly triples without prior knowledge of those greens.

 

I would put 85 as maybe a 1/5 chance at best for a non professional playing Sunday conditions at Augusta. I think a 90 is much more likely.

 

Honestly, saying no doubles shows a complete lack or respect and a person who is boasting. I would say guaranteeing no doubles on ANY PGA Sunday set up is a ridiculous statement from a non-professional. To say that about a Major without walking the course is simply asinine.

 

Just my two cents.

 

Your two cents is noted.

 

If you think Rickie Fowler (or any top 20/100/200 in the world pro) would play me and give me (or any of 50 tournament ams I play with on a regular basis) 15 shots on ANY golf course in the world, I would truly love to buy some of what you are smoking or injecting. Read some of my other (verifiable) threads and then come back here and respond.

 

I play these guys. For Money. They give me 4 a side if we play the same tees. 1 or two a side if I get a tee bump or two.

 

I would play them for everything I own, and everything my friends own, getting 15 shots.

 

You simply do not know what you are talking about. Step away from the keyboard. You think you know. You simply do not know.

 

I love this stuff… So funny…

 

Wow, I guess denial isnt just a river in egypt... You shot 78 struggling to walk LACC from the tips in non tourney shape yet stand here saying you can hang with Ricky Fowler and he wouldnt dust you by at least 12-15 shots at the masters in sunday touney conditions ? pros give you 4 shots a side so 8 total over 18 to level the field and youre bragging about this? You remind me of the guy i played with down in TPC sawgrass a few years back whos a scratch and Vijay Singh who lives on the course joined us for a winter round ( grass/rough was dormant greens slow). he asked for 10 shots and played 2 sets of tees ahead of us except on 2 holes where the tess were being repaired ( the 16th & 17th ). Vijay giggled and said "just tee it up bro ive only got a few hours before i go"

I end up shooting 68 Vijay shoots 64 lipping out a 12 footer on 18th for birdie and our scratch shot 75. He was bragging the whole way into the clubhouse that he beat me and almost beat Vijay. I literally laughed in his face at the insanity of his thinking. Like i said Obee, you claim youre calling out others because " they dont know" but i truly believe your hubris is righting checks your game cant cash. This isnt a regular tour event at an easy course and yes for the 10th time the op's question and specific stipulations are clear. I would bet everything i own against you staying within 12-15 of Rickie Fowler in that scenario. Im sure youd have fun trying though until reality sets in and you realize "i guess im not as good as i thought i was" .Im enjoying the debate though carry on

 

Ask Rickie how many he'd give me....

 

LOL

[RobotDoctor]

...

 

SCRATCH GOLFERS, UNITE!!!!!

 

[runs out of room, fist aloft]

LET'S GOOOOOOOO!!!!!

 

I'm working on it! I hope to Unite with you scratch golfers by mid next season or sooner.

[lowheel]

Not trying to stir the pot more as its getting heated but are the guys who are saying "a scratch wouldnt shoot 85" actually scratch?

 

From following this whole thread and commenting a bit I get the feeling that many of the scratch guys believe they could do it but the guys who dont think it could happen are higher caps?

 

I mean I side with Obee on this one. No cameras. No galleries. No pressure. Even as a non-scratch 2 capper I don't see the problem?

 

Its not like you forget to putt. Sure they are the toughest, fastest greens etc. But I'm not gonna have 40 putts. There is no OB and Augusta is admittedly forgiving from the tee compared to many courses good players play regularly this is just common fact. Minimal rough. The course rating says a scratch should get it done. We all know the holes better than any other course in the world.

 

Just a vibe I'm getting. Mid Cappers saying no and legit scratch guys believing in their own ability to get the job done. Its an 85. Not a 72.

 

To add to your well thought out response, even though i disagree, All scratches are not equal. I have students who are true scratches and play tough courses from the tips 7000+ and some scratches who play 6600 yard courses and are pushed to the limit if they speed up greens and grow rough at their course.

Obee doesnt hot it fr enough or high enough to sniff 85 at augusta despite his self belief. other tourney scracthes i know would fare better and might hover in the the low 80s high 70s as they hit it 275+ and have great to good short games and play TPC style tough courses with fast greens.

[lowheel]

Okay I am going to go out on a limb here and try to add some statistics to go along with my complete anecdotal argument.

 

The fourth round scoring average at this years Masters was 71.9 so we can basically say Par was the "average" score for the top players in the professional world who came out and made the cut. So his claim is an 80 would only be 8 strokes difference off the average and an 85 13 strokes off the average of the greatest players in the world who live and breath golf as a profession.

 

Now lets take some anecdotal evidence mixed with stats. Your friend is a scratch golfer in tournament conditions. Smylie Kaufman came out to the local course that I play constantly, (my son also takes lessons there) the day after our State Amateur was played. Similar conditions (sight unseen, short warm up) and shot a 65 (-7) from the back tees on what would be tougher conditions than your average tours. Kaufmann is a PGA Tour player but outside of the made cut at the Masters last year has never made another cut at a Major. On Sunday of the Amateur (which is comprised of seriously talented golfers and a slew of Division 1 players) only 23 players broke Par. This was with countless practice rounds and a caddy.

 

So a PGA Tour Pro who is not in the upper crust of the game shot 7 strokes better than Par without difficulty on a course comparable to the toughest tournament conditions the average non professional player plays.

 

The level between a "scratch" and a PGA Tour Player making the cut at the Masters is a bigger difference than that of a scratch and 15 capper in my opinion.

 

I believe 80 is out of the question. Not enough birdie holes and way to many holes begging for a doubles and possibly triples without prior knowledge of those greens.

 

I would put 85 as maybe a 1/5 chance at best for a non professional playing Sunday conditions at Augusta. I think a 90 is much more likely.

 

Honestly, saying no doubles shows a complete lack or respect and a person who is boasting. I would say guaranteeing no doubles on ANY PGA Sunday set up is a ridiculous statement from a non-professional. To say that about a Major without walking the course is simply asinine.

 

Just my two cents.

 

Your two cents is noted.

 

If you think Rickie Fowler (or any top 20/100/200 in the world pro) would play me and give me (or any of 50 tournament ams I play with on a regular basis) 15 shots on ANY golf course in the world, I would truly love to buy some of what you are smoking or injecting. Read some of my other (verifiable) threads and then come back here and respond.

 

I play these guys. For Money. They give me 4 a side if we play the same tees. 1 or two a side if I get a tee bump or two.

 

I would play them for everything I own, and everything my friends own, getting 15 shots.

 

You simply do not know what you are talking about. Step away from the keyboard. You think you know. You simply do not know.

 

I love this stuff… So funny…

 

Wow, I guess denial isnt just a river in egypt... You shot 78 struggling to walk LACC from the tips in non tourney shape yet stand here saying you can hang with Ricky Fowler and he wouldnt dust you by at least 12-15 shots at the masters in sunday touney conditions ? pros give you 4 shots a side so 8 total over 18 to level the field and youre bragging about this? You remind me of the guy i played with down in TPC sawgrass a few years back whos a scratch and Vijay Singh who lives on the course joined us for a winter round ( grass/rough was dormant greens slow). he asked for 10 shots and played 2 sets of tees ahead of us except on 2 holes where the tess were being repaired ( the 16th & 17th ). Vijay giggled and said "just tee it up bro ive only got a few hours before i go"

I end up shooting 68 Vijay shoots 64 lipping out a 12 footer on 18th for birdie and our scratch shot 75. He was bragging the whole way into the clubhouse that he beat me and almost beat Vijay. I literally laughed in his face at the insanity of his thinking. Like i said Obee, you claim youre calling out others because " they dont know" but i truly believe your hubris is righting checks your game cant cash. This isnt a regular tour event at an easy course and yes for the 10th time the op's question and specific stipulations are clear. I would bet everything i own against you staying within 12-15 of Rickie Fowler in that scenario. Im sure youd have fun trying though until reality sets in and you realize "i guess im not as good as i thought i was" .Im enjoying the debate though carry on

 

Ask Rickie how many he'd give me....

 

LOL

 

LOL indeed... carry on.How havent you turned pro yet? ;)

[lowheel]

Okay I am going to go out on a limb here and try to add some statistics to go along with my complete anecdotal argument.

 

The fourth round scoring average at this years Masters was 71.9 so we can basically say Par was the "average" score for the top players in the professional world who came out and made the cut. So his claim is an 80 would only be 8 strokes difference off the average and an 85 13 strokes off the average of the greatest players in the world who live and breath golf as a profession.

 

Now lets take some anecdotal evidence mixed with stats. Your friend is a scratch golfer in tournament conditions. Smylie Kaufman came out to the local course that I play constantly, (my son also takes lessons there) the day after our State Amateur was played. Similar conditions (sight unseen, short warm up) and shot a 65 (-7) from the back tees on what would be tougher conditions than your average tours. Kaufmann is a PGA Tour player but outside of the made cut at the Masters last year has never made another cut at a Major. On Sunday of the Amateur (which is comprised of seriously talented golfers and a slew of Division 1 players) only 23 players broke Par. This was with countless practice rounds and a caddy.

 

So a PGA Tour Pro who is not in the upper crust of the game shot 7 strokes better than Par without difficulty on a course comparable to the toughest tournament conditions the average non professional player plays.

 

The level between a "scratch" and a PGA Tour Player making the cut at the Masters is a bigger difference than that of a scratch and 15 capper in my opinion.

 

I believe 80 is out of the question. Not enough birdie holes and way to many holes begging for a doubles and possibly triples without prior knowledge of those greens.

 

I would put 85 as maybe a 1/5 chance at best for a non professional playing Sunday conditions at Augusta. I think a 90 is much more likely.

 

Honestly, saying no doubles shows a complete lack or respect and a person who is boasting. I would say guaranteeing no doubles on ANY PGA Sunday set up is a ridiculous statement from a non-professional. To say that about a Major without walking the course is simply asinine.

 

Just my two cents.

 

Your two cents is noted.

 

If you think Rickie Fowler (or any top 20/100/200 in the world pro) would play me and give me (or any of 50 tournament ams I play with on a regular basis) 15 shots on ANY golf course in the world, I would truly love to buy some of what you are smoking or injecting. Read some of my other (verifiable) threads and then come back here and respond.

 

I play these guys. For Money. They give me 4 a side if we play the same tees. 1 or two a side if I get a tee bump or two.

 

I would play them for everything I own, and everything my friends own, getting 15 shots.

 

You simply do not know what you are talking about. Step away from the keyboard. You think you know. You simply do not know.

 

I love this stuff… So funny…

 

You are not operating by the terms of the question. This is not a normal bet on a normal course. If you think a scratch could sight unseen with no practice round and no walking the course and stay with a top 20 player on a Sunday tournament condition course, let alone a Major Sunday condition course, and they have not played professional golf you are absolutely fooling yourself. On a normal track with practice that they knew could a scratch player stay within striking distance of a PGA player? Sure. However, that is not what the OP's friend was claiming. Again, I go back to the most ludicrous statement in the bet, that he would not double bogey having not walked nor played the course. That kind of arrogance is ridiculous. No offense playing Pro-Ams with guys, while impressive and cool, has little bearing to the OP's question.

 

As well, you said they give you 4 a side, so 8 strokes on a course you know. The average in RD 4 at the Masters was 72. So you really think there are not 5 more bad strokes for a scratch to find on Augusta going in sight unseen, no caddie, and no practice round to throw 85 completely out the window based just on that? Not to mention 4 a side basically puts 80 on the table as a good standard on a course you know in non-Sunday conditions.

 

Again, I am not saying a scratch could not shot 80-85 at AN. However, according to the OP's bet sight unseen, no practice round, no caddy, and with Sunday tournament conditions takes it to a different level and makes 85 a very tough number and 80 basically unattainable.

 

Stop with all you logic my head hurts!! this is the problem with the thread besides the delusion, people are not reading the actual question...

[lowheel]

Not only could Obee not sniff 85 at Augusta, he'd be lucky to break 100. Par 72, and let's get some additional facts here:

 

1. Greens are lightning fast, unlike anything a scratch player has ever witnessed or will witness again. Add 5 strokes.

2. Billy Payne just retired, so the course will be in disrepair and play much tougher. Add 3 strokes.

3. Obee admits he is not built like a linebacker. Add 5 strokes.

4. Obee plays money games with Mickelson, who hasn't won on Tour since 2013, and Fowler, who has never won a major. Essentially he's playing against journeymen. Add 3 strokes.

5. 1 hour warm-up, no caddie. Add 3 strokes.

6. The fake bird noise they pipe in on the telecast would not be there in real life. Hard adjustment. Add 2 strokes.

7. He needs to break 85. 8+5 = 13, which is incredibly unlucky. Add 3 strokes.

8. Tiger Woods, perhaps the greatest golfer of all time, has not won there since 2005. Add 5 strokes.

9. Obee is not WRX long. 235 carry? That's a soft 9-iron for JonesScott. Add 7 strokes.

 

That's an average of 108 by my math. So yeah, 85 isn't happening. Pretty clear-cut if you ask me.

 

The streak of linebacker mentions continues!!!! well played sir, well played

 

[Short Pete]

@obee

 

Aah, you get yourself a Tour yardage book and memorize green contours, and you scout out the course via Google Earth!! Then it will be easy! Nobody else has had that idea, this makes golf soo much easier. Thank you! (irony off)

 

Don't get me wrong, I believe that you are a really good player (you mentioned it about 200 times in the last three days, by the way), but you still don't hit it far enough to score well there. And still with 235 carry you will have to hit it places where you have good access to the green consistently. And if you did that and you attack every second green with a fairway metal you won't get too many chances at an easy par. If everything goes absolutely perfect you may do it. But you will have to get in shape first. If LA CC exhausts you, Augusta National will, and not to a lesser extent.

[lowheel]

...

 

SCRATCH GOLFERS, UNITE!!!!!

 

[runs out of room, fist aloft]

LET'S GOOOOOOOO!!!!!

 

I'm working on it! I hope to Unite with you scratch golfers by mid next season or sooner.

 

Enjoy the ride/process and best of luck!! Keep pushing yourself. take care

[Shilgy]

Well, for those saying 235 carry isn't long enough... Are you the same guys saying the tour fairways give 50 yards of roll? So Obee averages 285.

 

Typical wrx thread. A few guys try to abuse another guy. Kindness is not exactly a common wrx trait. Obee says with 4 a side he has a good game with a top pro and gets slammed for allegedly saying he can hang with said pro.

[Short Pete]

Obee himself said with roll he hits it around 260, so there's your answer. And since he seems to know his game well, I'll take his word on that. And with that 260 average he has a minimal chance of breaking 85 at Augusta National without a practice round, without a caddie who knows the course and from the tournament tees under tournament conditions. No abuse here.

[jmvargas]

i'm with Obee...go get them!!

[Obee]

Okay I am going to go out on a limb here and try to add some statistics to go along with my complete anecdotal argument.

 

The fourth round scoring average at this years Masters was 71.9 so we can basically say Par was the "average" score for the top players in the professional world who came out and made the cut. So his claim is an 80 would only be 8 strokes difference off the average and an 85 13 strokes off the average of the greatest players in the world who live and breath golf as a profession.

 

Now lets take some anecdotal evidence mixed with stats. Your friend is a scratch golfer in tournament conditions. Smylie Kaufman came out to the local course that I play constantly, (my son also takes lessons there) the day after our State Amateur was played. Similar conditions (sight unseen, short warm up) and shot a 65 (-7) from the back tees on what would be tougher conditions than your average tours. Kaufmann is a PGA Tour player but outside of the made cut at the Masters last year has never made another cut at a Major. On Sunday of the Amateur (which is comprised of seriously talented golfers and a slew of Division 1 players) only 23 players broke Par. This was with countless practice rounds and a caddy.

 

So a PGA Tour Pro who is not in the upper crust of the game shot 7 strokes better than Par without difficulty on a course comparable to the toughest tournament conditions the average non professional player plays.

 

The level between a "scratch" and a PGA Tour Player making the cut at the Masters is a bigger difference than that of a scratch and 15 capper in my opinion.

 

I believe 80 is out of the question. Not enough birdie holes and way to many holes begging for a doubles and possibly triples without prior knowledge of those greens.

 

I would put 85 as maybe a 1/5 chance at best for a non professional playing Sunday conditions at Augusta. I think a 90 is much more likely.

 

Honestly, saying no doubles shows a complete lack or respect and a person who is boasting. I would say guaranteeing no doubles on ANY PGA Sunday set up is a ridiculous statement from a non-professional. To say that about a Major without walking the course is simply asinine.

 

Just my two cents.

 

Your two cents is noted.

 

If you think Rickie Fowler (or any top 20/100/200 in the world pro) would play me and give me (or any of 50 tournament ams I play with on a regular basis) 15 shots on ANY golf course in the world, I would truly love to buy some of what you are smoking or injecting. Read some of my other (verifiable) threads and then come back here and respond.

 

I play these guys. For Money. They give me 4 a side if we play the same tees. 1 or two a side if I get a tee bump or two.

 

I would play them for everything I own, and everything my friends own, getting 15 shots.

 

You simply do not know what you are talking about. Step away from the keyboard. You think you know. You simply do not know.

 

I love this stuff… So funny…

 

Wow, I guess denial isnt just a river in egypt... You shot 78 struggling to walk LACC from the tips in non tourney shape yet stand here saying you can hang with Ricky Fowler and he wouldnt dust you by at least 12-15 shots at the masters in sunday touney conditions ? pros give you 4 shots a side so 8 total over 18 to level the field and youre bragging about this? You remind me of the guy i played with down in TPC sawgrass a few years back whos a scratch and Vijay Singh who lives on the course joined us for a winter round ( grass/rough was dormant greens slow). he asked for 10 shots and played 2 sets of tees ahead of us except on 2 holes where the tess were being repaired ( the 16th & 17th ). Vijay giggled and said "just tee it up bro ive only got a few hours before i go"

I end up shooting 68 Vijay shoots 64 lipping out a 12 footer on 18th for birdie and our scratch shot 75. He was bragging the whole way into the clubhouse that he beat me and almost beat Vijay. I literally laughed in his face at the insanity of his thinking. Like i said Obee, you claim youre calling out others because " they dont know" but i truly believe your hubris is righting checks your game cant cash. This isnt a regular tour event at an easy course and yes for the 10th time the op's question and specific stipulations are clear. I would bet everything i own against you staying within 12-15 of Rickie Fowler in that scenario. Im sure youd have fun trying though until reality sets in and you realize "i guess im not as good as i thought i was" .Im enjoying the debate though carry on

 

Ask Rickie how many he'd give me....

 

LOL

 

LOL indeed... carry on.How havent you turned pro yet? ;)

 

Because I'm 50, short, and fat!! At my best (consistently +2 to +3.5 as a full-time working man 15 years ago), I could've cashed the odd (small) mini-tour check in a one or two-dayer if I played well. But I was never delusional enough to turn pro.

 

Read my other reply. Pick a course they play on Tour. Bring a pro. How 'bout Bayonet? Torrey South? I've played there exactly twice.

 

Just got back from Bayonet a bit ago. Played it exactly once before the tourney I just played. Played every hole at the back, except a couple a day that they moved around, each day. 7,000 at sea level.

 

My average score over 3 days was 74.33.

 

What's your math here? Rickie shoots 59, 59, 59 at phocking Bayonet from the tips to prove you right? Or, maybe, because you think Bayonet is a push-over, you think the spread would be smaller, so it's only 11 shots. So Rickie shoots 63, 63, 63 at Bayonet. Yeah, right....

 

Read my thread from last year on playing Rickie and Phil. You probably popped off in that thread, too, and didn't read the whole thing.

 

And if you didn't post in it, I guarantee you you would have had you seen it. Read it.

 

15 strokes?!?!

 

If I play very poorly, and/or I was injured, and a Tour pro played well, that would be the gap in our scores. But that's the only way it happens.

 

You act as if I don't play golf with these guys. And like I've never played on a Tour set-up course. It's hilarious.