Could a Scratch Golfer break 85 at Augusta?

[lowheel]

I have not read this whole thread (and not planning on it), but barring horrible weather I see no issues with a "true" scratch golfer shooting 85 or better at Augusta (or any course for that matter). I don't play to scratch any

longer due to not practicing much or playing much anymore, but no matter what course I step, no matter what tee's I play from and no matter what the conditions are, I plan on shooting 75 or better. Just because its Augusta, Bethpage, Oakmont, etc... I don't see any reason for a change in thinking. Hit the fairway, hit the green, 2 putt and move onto the next one.

 

I think too many people over analyze everything such as what the pro's shoot, what their handicap is and how good they are. I know they are alot better than I am (played with many), but they want to shoot 65 and I want to shoot 75. No reason for either of us not break 85.

 

Just my 2 cents

 

I like your confidence but your post shows me ( no offense) youve never played a course of that caliber in tournament condition and pressure. Until you do it you wont know. Golf is humbling like that and alot of guys find out the hard way. I play US open Qualifiers with scratches every year and they rarely break 80. Always hear the same thing. "this is my worst round this year!" "i havent shot over 74 in like 3 years" " the slow pace is really affecting me" " if i made the putts i usually make it would be a different round ( guy who shot 81)"

 

99% of scracthes would melt on those green speeds. roughly 70% of scratches play courses from 6700 and below.

can't like this post enough. you take a scratch golf and put him in a qualifier of any decent substance -- you see what they REALLY shoot.

 

faster, tourney green speeds will make true scratch golfers shoot +4 or +5 on their best days.

 

Finally a voice of reason!!! dont forget pin placements that require you shape it in or force carry. Forged can chime in here. I played oakmont a few years back in 2007 the monday after the US open. Some top amateurs who were +1/+2s were getting killed out there barely breaking 81-82 with no pressure on...

[Bingo1976]

Finally a voice of reason!!! dont forget pin placements that require you shape it in or force carry. Forged can chime in here. I played oakmont a few years back in 2007 the monday after the US open. Some top amateurs who were +1/+2s were getting killed out there barely breaking 81-82 with no pressure on...

 

The winning score that year was +5. Augusta was -9 this year, and is usually somewhere about 10 to 12 under par (ironically it was also 2007 that Zach Johnson won with +1 at Augusta).

 

The US Open 2007 scoring average is 75.72 (+5.72 over par)

Augusta's was 73.88 in 2017 (+1.88 over par)

 

So if a +1 (no doubt travelling, tourney tested) can shoot 82 at Oakmont in US Open conditions and probably without a practice round, then I don't see why a scratch golfer couldn't get close to 80 at Augusta. Of course, a scratch golfer probably has 20 scores that range from 70-80, so it would depend on the day, but I don't think Augusta is unconquerable for a skilled golfer.

 

As I said before, Augusta, especially the back 9, is so well televised that you'd have to have amnesia not to know how some of the holes play. It's not like a scratch is going to take on the 11th pin for example, and then wonder why his ball rolled into the water, or aim anywhere other than over the front bunker on 12...

[Roadking2003]

The first 10 times...no. that's a golf course where you need to know everything about it. once he/she got used to place, I'd say they could fire under 80 consistently

 

Tell that to Ernie Els who shot 83 there last year.

[TheCityGame]

I have not read this whole thread (and not planning on it), but barring horrible weather I see no issues with a "true" scratch golfer shooting 85 or better at Augusta (or any course for that matter). I don't play to scratch any

longer due to not practicing much or playing much anymore, but no matter what course I step, no matter what tee's I play from and no matter what the conditions are, I plan on shooting 75 or better. Just because its Augusta, Bethpage, Oakmont, etc... I don't see any reason for a change in thinking. Hit the fairway, hit the green, 2 putt and move onto the next one.

 

I think too many people over analyze everything such as what the pro's shoot, what their handicap is and how good they are. I know they are alot better than I am (played with many), but they want to shoot 65 and I want to shoot 75. No reason for either of us not break 85.

 

Just my 2 cents

 

I like your confidence but your post shows me ( no offense) youve never played a course of that caliber in tournament condition and pressure. Until you do it you wont know. Golf is humbling like that and alot of guys find out the hard way. I play US open Qualifiers with scratches every year and they rarely break 80. Always hear the same thing. "this is my worst round this year!" "i havent shot over 74 in like 3 years" " the slow pace is really affecting me" " if i made the putts i usually make it would be a different round ( guy who shot 81)"

 

99% of scracthes would melt on those green speeds. roughly 70% of scratches play courses from 6700 and below.

can't like this post enough. you take a scratch golf and put him in a qualifier of any decent substance -- you see what they REALLY shoot.

 

faster, tourney green speeds will make true scratch golfers shoot +4 or +5 on their best days.

 

Finally a voice of reason!!! dont forget pin placements that require you shape it in or force carry. Forged can chime in here. I played oakmont a few years back in 2007 the monday after the US open. Some top amateurs who were +1/+2s were getting killed out there barely breaking 81-82 with no pressure on...

SOME +1's/+2's were "getting killed" at arguably a tougher course, and still breaking 81 or 82. Sounds like you're making a case for a scratch shooting 81 at Augusta. You're the one using funny math. Obee's math is presumably using the best estimates for what the course rating is at Augusta in tournament conditions (yes, something like 78, not what most people here seem to think) and then using the math that says that scratch players typically average about 3 strokes over scratch.

 

The funny math that's getting used here is the guys who seem to think green speeds add 4 strokes to SCRATCH players game. The "pressure" of playing Augusta adds about another 4. not knowing the lines adds about another 4. And whatever magical forces exist to just add another couple.

 

I don't seem to know some of the scratch players you guys know.. ..the guys who get to scratch playing their local 6400 yard muni with 8 stimp greens over and over again. Pretty much every scratch I know plays -- at the very least -- in, of course, club championships, but city tournaments, state GA tournaments, probably State Ams (or mid-ams), maybe US Open quals for the fun of it. We're not talking PGA tour, but neither was the original question.Scratches have generally played a lot of golf and probably played nice courses, fast greens, maybe even played college golf. The low guys I know around here have played Congressional, been down to play Pinehurst, Erin Hills, Merion, RTJ in Virginia, Pebble, Torrey, Bethpage. And they don't go out and killed by these courses. Hitting the ball on target with good distance and getting putts started on line travels everywhere and every scratch can do that.

[Hawkeye77]

Under the scenario posed I would say our hypothetical scratch player:

 

-Breaks 80 1 time

-Shoots 80 to 85 8 times

-Shoots over 85 1 time

 

Yeah, it will be really hard, but they'll still make some pars and have some birdie looks. They'd have one really good round and shoot 78 and one really bad round and shoot 86. Most of the time they'd shoot 82-83 with 8-10 pars, 1-2 doubles, and the rest bogies.

 

No doubting this, and I read Obee's post carefully.

 

But the hypothetical is one round under the stipulated conditions and the guy says he will break 80 so I remain skeptical, but being an 8.5 and never playing a course that length or under those conditions (no familiarity with the course, the real back tees, tournament greens, etc.) I admit to having no frame of reference.

[Short Pete]

If a scratch player who

 

- hits it 260+ average

- has an excellent (not just very good) short game and iron play

- got his scratch by playing in bigger am tournaments and is used to playing long courses

- approaches the round conservatively

 

then I think he/she should be able to break 85 under the conditions the OP gave us, if his complete game is on. Maybe even close to 80 if he/she is on fire.

 

If the scratch hits it 235 on average (like obee) he would have to do miracle play to break 85, I don't care what the rest of his game looks like. He would have zero chance of reaching 1, 5, 7, 9, 10, 11, 14, 17, 18 in two, would need 3 wood or driver on 4 just to reach the green. He wouldn't even get around the corner on 18 and 13. He would have to hit a middle iron on 12 that won't hold the putting surface because he doesn't hit it hard enough. If he is not the Grand Master of chipping, pitching and long iron approach he will have a long day on and around the greens.

 

A friend of mine is a teaching pro who trained the national team of my country, he should know what he is talking about. He has been at the Masters a few times, he said that if you are not able to hit the right spots on most of the greens you can be sure to 3-putt. You get lots of uneven lies (TV gives zero clue how hilly that course actually is) and you have to know which spots on the green you should avoid at all costs. Don't be fooled by "short hitters" like Bernhard Langer or Steve Stricker still managing to get around ANGC with scores around par. These guys are not short, they hit it around 270 consistently, are excellent iron players, know the course from dozens of rounds, and they play tournaments on Senior Tour stops with -20 for three rounds. They still carry + index. If a scratch player can play a Seniors Tour stop under par on a regular basis he can get close to 80 at Augusta, if not he can forget about it.

 

@obee

 

Math doesn't always help. You said you shot 34 and 44 at LA CC, which one of these was closer to what you regularly play on courses of this caliber?

[deadsolid...shank]

If a scratch player who

 

- hits it 260+ average

- has an excellent (not just very good) short game and iron play

- got his scratch by playing in bigger am tournaments and is used to playing long courses

- approaches the round conservatively

 

then I think he/she should be able to break 85 under the conditions the OP gave us, if his complete game is on. Maybe even close to 80 if he/she is on fire.

 

If the scratch hits it 235 on average (like obee) he would have to do miracle play to break 85, I don't care what the rest of his game looks like. He would have zero chance of reaching 1, 5, 7, 9, 10, 11, 14, 17, 18 in two, would need 3 wood or driver on 4 just to reach the green. He wouldn't even get around the corner on 18 and 13. He would have to hit a middle iron on 12 that won't hold the putting surface because he doesn't hit it hard enough. If he is not the Grand Master of chipping, pitching and long iron approach he will have a long day on and around the greens.

 

A friend of mine is a teaching pro who trained the national team of my country, he should know what he is talking about. He has been at the Masters a few times, he said that if you are not able to hit the right spots on most of the greens you can be sure to 3-putt. You get lots of uneven lies (TV gives zero clue how hilly that course actually is) and you have to know which spots on the green you should avoid at all costs. Don't be fooled by "short hitters" like Bernhard Langer or Steve Stricker still managing to get around ANGC with scores around par. These guys are not short, they hit it around 270 consistently, are excellent iron players, know the course from dozens of rounds, and they play tournaments on Senior Tour stops with -20 for three rounds. They still carry + index. If a scratch player can play a Seniors Tour stop under par on a regular basis he can get close to 80 at Augusta, if not he can forget about it.

 

@obee

 

Math doesn't always help. You said you shot 34 and 44 at LA CC, which one of these was closer to what you regularly play on courses of this caliber?

 

Pete,

 

Do a quick look through at some of Obee's posts. I think it will make you take another look at how you evaluate his opinions on this.

 

He is a tournament and high pressure game player. We're not talking about your average 235 hitting scratch player here.

 

Makes this a really good discussion with guys like Obee and Lowheel arguing both sides. Guys who, as Richard would say, "have been there, done that"! ?

[Obee]

Strange question could a scratch break 85.....a scratch could not only shoot under but could break course record on first attempt! Odds are against it but they could ......If all your approach shots happen to be great its over!

 

Maybe ask what do scratchies typically shoot for first time at Augusta...

Okay, what do you think a scratch will shoot first time at Augusta National Golf Club in Augusta, Georgia USA under the stipulations provided?

 

An average of about 81.

 

So many golfers do not understand math....

 

Pretty cavalier with your math, no? read my other response to you and formulate a breakdown of how you get to that #. Are you pretending all scratches are equal? roughly about 5% of scratches could play the tips in tourney conditions at augusta and hit 50% of greens in reg. Course rating and index is an outlier when were talking US open setups and augusta national. You know this. pga professionals who qualify for the PGA championships are +2+3+4 caps and cant break 75/76 at the PGA but a scratch at augusta will break 80 hell 85 consistently?

 

Did I say "break 80 consistently"?

 

What's the average field score at Augusta over the last few years, vs. the. PGA Championship?

 

5% of scratches can hit 50% of greens at Augusta? Talk about cavalier! Where do you get THAT number? ;-)

 

And I agree with you about course rating and slope as an outlier in major events— especially the US Open over the years. But not necessarily at Augusta. There is no rough. That is a big deal. Yes, the greens are very, very difficult, but the US Mid-Am Champs that play there every year are usually +3 to +4 players (Stewart Hagestad is an outlier) and I'm fairly certain they generally break 80 there most rounds.

 

If I go back over the last 10 years and the US Mid-Am champs don't average 76 or so, then I will take back what I said and revise it upwards a bit.

 

I have played a lot of tournament golf with several US Mid-Champs. I know exactly how my game stacks up to theirs versus other scratch players.

 

And just so we get our definitions clear, we are talking about a true scratch golfer. Someone who averages 0.0 or very close over an entire year. Not somebody who hovers around two or three and one month becomes 0.0.

 

That is a completely different golfer. And they might average 85 to 88.

[Obee]

I have not read this whole thread (and not planning on it), but barring horrible weather I see no issues with a "true" scratch golfer shooting 85 or better at Augusta (or any course for that matter). I don't play to scratch any

longer due to not practicing much or playing much anymore, but no matter what course I step, no matter what tee's I play from and no matter what the conditions are, I plan on shooting 75 or better. Just because its Augusta, Bethpage, Oakmont, etc... I don't see any reason for a change in thinking. Hit the fairway, hit the green, 2 putt and move onto the next one.

 

I think too many people over analyze everything such as what the pro's shoot, what their handicap is and how good they are. I know they are alot better than I am (played with many), but they want to shoot 65 and I want to shoot 75. No reason for either of us not break 85.

 

Just my 2 cents

 

I like your confidence but your post shows me ( no offense) youve never played a course of that caliber in tournament condition and pressure. Until you do it you wont know. Golf is humbling like that and alot of guys find out the hard way. I play US open Qualifiers with scratches every year and they rarely break 80. Always hear the same thing. "this is my worst round this year!" "i havent shot over 74 in like 3 years" " the slow pace is really affecting me" " if i made the putts i usually make it would be a different round ( guy who shot 81)"

 

99% of scracthes would melt on those green speeds. roughly 70% of scratches play courses from 6700 and below.

 

Sigh....

 

There are plenty of scratch players that are members of elite clubs who keep their greens 11.5 to 12.5 all year round and who get them to 13+ for big local and club tourneys.

 

I'm a 1 to +2 index. The worst round I have shot, IN MY SCRATCH LIFE is 87. And that was in 30 mph sustained winds with gusts to 50+

 

Give a good player who's also a good putter (and especially a tournament player) 30 minutes on any practice green and they will figure out the speed. They may not be completely comfortable, but it's not like they're going to 3-jack 11 times. Unless they have the yips… LOL

 

I'm sure you are a solid player. In fact, it sounds like you are a pro. My club hosted 2nd stage of Q-school for years. 7,157, 75.7/146. I know what tough is.

 

I just played Los Angeles Country Club. From the US Open tees on the back of every tee as a challenge with some friends. 7,550, Par 70(!) At sea level.

 

I shot 34 on the front. 44 on the back.

 

I'm 50 years old. And I carry driver 235.

 

A scratch player, without question, can break 85 at Augusta from the tips. He could also shoot 78.

 

He could also shoot 93.

 

Nothing you posted supports your case. La country club aint augusta not even close. Your worst round of 87 in 30 mph winds would be 97+ at augusta. You hover at scratch to +1 and carry it 235? Do you think you break 85 at augusta in tourney conditions? Id bet my house you wouldnt. No offence of course just stating the obvious.Youd be hitting hybrids and woulds into some of those greens... think about that for a minute

 

What do you think I was hitting at LACC on a 7550 yard, PAR 70 GOLF COURSE?

 

I hit 3-wood into four par 4's! Three of them I couldn't reach with 3-wood, so I played them as par 5's. I think I hit hybrid into EVERY PAR FOUR!

 

There's a 300-yard down-hill par 3 that I couldn't reach.

 

Have a go at the re-designed LACC from the back of every tee box. Then come talk to me. Or wait til they host the US Open in 2022. It is a beast.

 

And I would bet you my house I could break 85 at Augusta, as could any 50 guys I play competitive golf with in SoCal. What does that prove?

 

Just out of curiosity, what do you think would happen if a top-20 in the world pro gave a short-hitting scratch golfer a 700 yard advantage off the tee?

 

Say ... pro plays from 7,150, 75.8/145, but the am plays the blues at 6,450, 71.8/135.

 

Does the short-hitting am stand a chance? How many will he get beat by?

 

Hehehe....

[Obee]

If a scratch player who

 

- hits it 260+ average

- has an excellent (not just very good) short game and iron play

- got his scratch by playing in bigger am tournaments and is used to playing long courses

- approaches the round conservatively

 

then I think he/she should be able to break 85 under the conditions the OP gave us, if his complete game is on. Maybe even close to 80 if he/she is on fire.

 

If the scratch hits it 235 on average (like obee) he would have to do miracle play to break 85, I don't care what the rest of his game looks like. He would have zero chance of reaching 1, 5, 7, 9, 10, 11, 14, 17, 18 in two, would need 3 wood or driver on 4 just to reach the green. He wouldn't even get around the corner on 18 and 13. He would have to hit a middle iron on 12 that won't hold the putting surface because he doesn't hit it hard enough. If he is not the Grand Master of chipping, pitching and long iron approach he will have a long day on and around the greens.

 

A friend of mine is a teaching pro who trained the national team of my country, he should know what he is talking about. He has been at the Masters a few times, he said that if you are not able to hit the right spots on most of the greens you can be sure to 3-putt. You get lots of uneven lies (TV gives zero clue how hilly that course actually is) and you have to know which spots on the green you should avoid at all costs. Don't be fooled by "short hitters" like Bernhard Langer or Steve Stricker still managing to get around ANGC with scores around par. These guys are not short, they hit it around 270 consistently, are excellent iron players, know the course from dozens of rounds, and they play tournaments on Senior Tour stops with -20 for three rounds. They still carry + index. If a scratch player can play a Seniors Tour stop under par on a regular basis he can get close to 80 at Augusta, if not he can forget about it.

 

@obee

 

Math doesn't always help. You said you shot 34 and 44 at LA CC, which one of these was closer to what you regularly play on courses of this caliber?

 

I had never played LACC. I walked. I weigh 285 pounds. On the back nine I was completely exhausted. If I played there 20 times, my AVERAGE score would probably be right about what I shot that day, but probably a bit lower (76ish?) I played very well on the front. And horribly on the back and I was exhausted. Depending on conditions, I could see myself shooting as low as 69 or 70 and as high as 84/85 in the type of conditions we played that day: 80 and sunny. Light wind.

 

And I don't hit it 235. I carry it 235. At a tour venue, I would hit it, total distance, 255-265 on their firm fairways.

 

 

[J_Tizzle]

If a scratch player who

 

- hits it 260+ average

- has an excellent (not just very good) short game and iron play

- got his scratch by playing in bigger am tournaments and is used to playing long courses

- approaches the round conservatively

 

then I think he/she should be able to break 85 under the conditions the OP gave us, if his complete game is on. Maybe even close to 80 if he/she is on fire.

 

If the scratch hits it 235 on average (like obee) he would have to do miracle play to break 85, I don't care what the rest of his game looks like. He would have zero chance of reaching 1, 5, 7, 9, 10, 11, 14, 17, 18 in two, would need 3 wood or driver on 4 just to reach the green. He wouldn't even get around the corner on 18 and 13. He would have to hit a middle iron on 12 that won't hold the putting surface because he doesn't hit it hard enough. If he is not the Grand Master of chipping, pitching and long iron approach he will have a long day on and around the greens.

 

A friend of mine is a teaching pro who trained the national team of my country, he should know what he is talking about. He has been at the Masters a few times, he said that if you are not able to hit the right spots on most of the greens you can be sure to 3-putt. You get lots of uneven lies (TV gives zero clue how hilly that course actually is) and you have to know which spots on the green you should avoid at all costs. Don't be fooled by "short hitters" like Bernhard Langer or Steve Stricker still managing to get around ANGC with scores around par. These guys are not short, they hit it around 270 consistently, are excellent iron players, know the course from dozens of rounds, and they play tournaments on Senior Tour stops with -20 for three rounds. They still carry + index. If a scratch player can play a Seniors Tour stop under par on a regular basis he can get close to 80 at Augusta, if not he can forget about it.

 

@obee

 

Math doesn't always help. You said you shot 34 and 44 at LA CC, which one of these was closer to what you regularly play on courses of this caliber?

 

I had never played LACC. I walked. I weigh 285 pounds. On the back nine I was completely exhausted. If I played there 20 times, my AVERAGE score would probably be right about what I shot that day, but probably a bit lower (76ish?) I played very well on the front. And horribly on the back and I was exhausted. Depending on conditions, I could see myself shooting as low as 69 or 70 and as high as 84/85 in the type of conditions we played that day: 80 and sunny. Light wind.

 

And I don't hit it 235. I carry it 235. At a tour venue, I would hit it, total distance, 255-265 on their firm fairways.

 

Or more honestly. The roll out these guys get on the firm fairways are insane, see Ollie's driving iron on 18 this past Sunday.

 

I hit it 260 or so carry and play a course right around 7,000 with really soft fairways typically, would I net out an additional 300-400 yards off the tee playing on those rock hard fairways?

 

I'd think its been pretty decided that the scoring at Augusta would really be attributed to the quality of the persons short game and if they are playing to break 85, or if they're playing to shoot their best possible score.

[Obee]

If a scratch player who

 

- hits it 260+ average

- has an excellent (not just very good) short game and iron play

- got his scratch by playing in bigger am tournaments and is used to playing long courses

- approaches the round conservatively

 

then I think he/she should be able to break 85 under the conditions the OP gave us, if his complete game is on. Maybe even close to 80 if he/she is on fire.

 

If the scratch hits it 235 on average (like obee) he would have to do miracle play to break 85, I don't care what the rest of his game looks like. He would have zero chance of reaching 1, 5, 7, 9, 10, 11, 14, 17, 18 in two, would need 3 wood or driver on 4 just to reach the green. He wouldn't even get around the corner on 18 and 13. He would have to hit a middle iron on 12 that won't hold the putting surface because he doesn't hit it hard enough. If he is not the Grand Master of chipping, pitching and long iron approach he will have a long day on and around the greens.

 

A friend of mine is a teaching pro who trained the national team of my country, he should know what he is talking about. He has been at the Masters a few times, he said that if you are not able to hit the right spots on most of the greens you can be sure to 3-putt. You get lots of uneven lies (TV gives zero clue how hilly that course actually is) and you have to know which spots on the green you should avoid at all costs. Don't be fooled by "short hitters" like Bernhard Langer or Steve Stricker still managing to get around ANGC with scores around par. These guys are not short, they hit it around 270 consistently, are excellent iron players, know the course from dozens of rounds, and they play tournaments on Senior Tour stops with -20 for three rounds. They still carry + index. If a scratch player can play a Seniors Tour stop under par on a regular basis he can get close to 80 at Augusta, if not he can forget about it.

 

@obee

 

Math doesn't always help. You said you shot 34 and 44 at LA CC, which one of these was closer to what you regularly play on courses of this caliber?

 

I had never played LACC. I walked. I weigh 285 pounds. On the back nine I was completely exhausted. If I played there 20 times, my AVERAGE score would probably be right about what I shot that day, but probably a bit lower (76ish?) I played very well on the front. And horribly on the back and I was exhausted. Depending on conditions, I could see myself shooting as low as 69 or 70 and as high as 84/85 in the type of conditions we played that day: 80 and sunny. Light wind.

 

And I don't hit it 235. I carry it 235. At a tour venue, I would hit it, total distance, 255-265 on their firm fairways.

 

Or more honestly. The roll out these guys get on the firm fairways are insane, see Ollie's driving iron on 18 this past Sunday.

 

I hit it 260 or so carry and play a course right around 7,000 with really soft fairways typically, would I net out an additional 300-400 yards off the tee playing on those rock hard fairways?

 

I'd think its been pretty decided that the scoring at Augusta would really be attributed to the quality of the persons short game and if they are playing to break 85, or if they're playing to shoot their best possible score.

 

Exactly on the short game thing.

 

And how do you think a guy like me is able to maintain a plus handicap carrying driver 235. :-)

[widow-maker]

My money would be on Obee. And if Richard were in his prime, my money would be on him to break 85, too. It all depends on the type of scratch player you are and what your experiences are. Not all scratches are alike. I've read enough from Richard and Obee that I believe what they write here. If you believe their experiences that they've related, then you come to the conclusion that they can really play. Ask Richard if when he went to play at Oakmont if 85 was the goal? Some of the original parameters that the OP set are kind of silly, because they're not reality if you were to ever get the chance to play there. I think Obee is dead on that an accomplished scratch would shoot somewhere around 80 the first time depending on weather and conditions, but there are certainly scratches who would break 85. A lot wouldn't, because of their lack of experience on this type of course and letting the moment get to them, but some would have experience on tough greens and if the greens don't intimidate you at Augusta, then tee to green certainly isn't going to be intimidating because it's basically a wide open course with very few hazards and very little rough.

[coachemup]

One of the reasons I basically quit posting all together is because of all the bickering that goes on now a days on this site. Guys, its not a measuring contest!

 

I thought the original question was "Could a scratch golfer break 85 at Augusta" (or something like that). After reading this thread (and wasting 15 minutes of my life) the parameters have changed so many times it is hard to even care any more. We go from a round of golf at Augusta to being paired with Rory and Dustin Johnson in the 2018 Masters.

 

Could a scratch golfer break 85 at Augusta- Yes

Could a scratch golfer break 85 at Augusta if paired with Rory and Dustin in the 2018 Masters- Probably Not (myself included, but we will never know because I have a day job now and can't even take the time off to go watch anymore)

 

There are a couple of guys on here who actually know who I am so they know this post is kind of tongue in cheek. Talking about golf is a great thing and should be enjoyed by all, but please don't get carried away if someone has a different opinion than you do. Variety is what makes the world go around :)

[Obee]

One of the reasons I basically quit posting all together is because of all the bickering that goes on now a days on this site. Guys, its not a measuring contest!

 

I thought the original question was "Could a scratch golfer break 85 at Augusta" (or something like that). After reading this thread (and wasting 15 minutes of my life) the parameters have changed so many times it is hard to even care any more. We go from a round of golf at Augusta to being paired with Rory and Dustin Johnson in the 2018 Masters.

 

Could a scratch golfer break 85 at Augusta- Yes

Could a scratch golfer break 85 at Augusta if paired with Rory and Dustin in the 2018 Masters- Probably Not (myself included, but we will never know because I have a day job now and can't even take the time off to go watch anymore)

 

There are a couple of guys on here who actually know who I am so they now this post is kind of tongue in cheek. Talking about golf is a great thing and should be enjoyed by all, but please don't get carried away if someone has a different opinion than you do. Variety is what makes the world go around :)

 

I shouldn't get overly pulled into these things, but it just frustrates me because I am that guy at this stage in my life. I used to be +2 to +3.5, but now I am 50, completely out of shape, and short. My average index over an entire year is just below scratch at this point in my life, so these threads are talking about guys like me. True scratch players.

 

The fact that I am 50 and short now doesn't mean I have forgotten how to play the game and execute the golf shots needed to access difficult pins. It doesn't mean that I can't still pitch and chip and wedge it like a +5 (that has always been my strength).

 

And it certainly doesn't mean I can't figure out greens running at 13 or 14. Would I 3-putt at Augusta? Of course! I might even 4-jab!! LOL.

 

But, like one other poster said, it's not like most scratch golfers play only Muni golf with greens running at 8 or 9 and would average 45 putts at Augusta. My home course held second stage of Q school for years. We would get them to 13.5 some years. I stimped them myself (yes, I am that big of a golf geek).

 

I guess the thing is, this is kind of a passionate argument thing. And I guess I must be OK with being a bit passionate about it....

 

:-)

[Barfolomew]

Obee I replied to a post of yours a while back and it was also bout confidence lol....Why assume you're gonna 3 or 4 putt....come on man you get to the practice green and adjust and you'll be fine...I know Augusta strikes fear in most but remember its pristine so you're gonna have amazing lies in fairway, tees and pure putting with no stupid bounces...green speeds can be adjusted to if you're a decent putter.

 

Steph Curry birdied hole #1 on first attempt....its just golf! If you're on and stick the approach shots you could shoot sub 80 on your 1st attempt on any course!

[RobotDoctor]

One thing for certain, if the scratch player cannot control the flight of their ball and distances with great accuracy then I would say they will be facing a lot of chips/pitches, potential bunker shots and long putts. That scratch player better be a short game wizard or they might just score near 90. We all need to keep in mind there is a difference between a scratch player and one who is a +1 / +2 or better. First time on the course, general warm up session, tournament tees under tournament conditions, no caddie/cart. This is a huge task. Maybe possible but not probable. Let the scratch player have a caddie (as should be in the original stipulation) and I would say the chance is decent of breaking 85 and maybe even 80. Local knowledge at The National is a HUGE benefit.

[RobotDoctor]

One of the reasons I basically quit posting all together is because of all the bickering that goes on now a days on this site. Guys, its not a measuring contest!

 

I thought the original question was "Could a scratch golfer break 85 at Augusta" (or something like that). After reading this thread (and wasting 15 minutes of my life) the parameters have changed so many times it is hard to even care any more. We go from a round of golf at Augusta to being paired with Rory and Dustin Johnson in the 2018 Masters.

 

Could a scratch golfer break 85 at Augusta- Yes

Could a scratch golfer break 85 at Augusta if paired with Rory and Dustin in the 2018 Masters- Probably Not (myself included, but we will never know because I have a day job now and can't even take the time off to go watch anymore)

 

There are a couple of guys on here who actually know who I am so they now this post is kind of tongue in cheek. Talking about golf is a great thing and should be enjoyed by all, but please don't get carried away if someone has a different opinion than you do. Variety is what makes the world go around :)

 

I shouldn't get overly pulled into these things, but it just frustrates me because I am that guy at this stage in my life. I used to be +2 to +3.5, but now I am 50, completely out of shape, and short. My average index over an entire year is just below scratch at this point in my life, so these threads are talking about guys like me. True scratch players.

 

The fact that I am 50 and short now doesn't mean I have forgotten how to play the game and execute the golf shots needed to access difficult pins. It doesn't mean that I can't still pitch and chip and wedge it like a +5 (that has always been my strength).

 

And it certainly doesn't mean I can't figure out greens running at 13 or 14. Would I 3-putt at Augusta? Of course! I might even 4-jab!! LOL.

 

But, like one other poster said, it's not like most scratch golfers play only Muni golf with greens running at 8 or 9 and would average 45 putts at Augusta. My home course held second stage of Q school for years. We would get them to 13.5 some years. I stimped them myself (yes, I am that big of a golf geek).

 

I guess the thing is, this is kind of a passionate argument thing. And I guess I must be OK with being a bit passionate about it....

 

:-)

 

Well said. Just because you're 50 doesn't mean you cannot still hit it well.

[Bye]

So I am a bit of a geek as well. The closest test I can think of for this question is to use the first round scores of the amateurs in the field. So over the past 5 years the first round scoring average for the amateurs is 77.75. Remember theses are national champions, past world number 1 amateurs, guys like Bryson Dechambeau, Matt Fitzpatrick and Curtis Luck. They will have spent days there and played several practice rounds. I don't understand the slope rating as we use congu over here, I've read that the unofficial course rating is 78.1. The guys that get to play at the Masters are a bit better than your average scratch golfer. I appreciate it's a small sample.

 

This artical actually has a stat guy giving an opionion on this very subject. Don't just look at the numbers, there is a bit about a first timer.

 

 

http://Not allowed Per Todaysgolfer's UK request/news-and-events/general-news/2017/march/masters-2017-how-hard-is-augusta-national-/

 

 

[Obee]

So I am a bit of a geek as well. The closest test I can think of for this question is to use the first round scores of the amateurs in the field. So over the past 5 years the first round scoring average for the amateurs is 77.75. Remember theses are national champions, past world number 1 amateurs, guys like Bryson Dechambeau, Matt Fitzpatrick and Curtis Luck. They will have spent days there and played several practice rounds. I don't understand the slope rating as we use congu over here, I've read that the unofficial course rating is 78.1. The guys that get to play at the Masters are a bit better than your average scratch golfer. I appreciate it's a small sample.

 

This artical actually has a stat guy giving an opionion on this very subject. Don't just look at the numbers, there is a bit about a first timer.

 

 

http://Not allowed Per Todaysgolfer's UK request/news-and-events/general-news/2017/march/masters-2017-how-hard-is-augusta-national-/

 

Good stuff!

 

But remember nobody said anything about actually playing in the Masters.

 

That is a big difference.

 

For the average top amateur, you can probably add a couple strokes to their score just for the awe factor.

[Bye]

So I am a bit of a geek as well. The closest test I can think of for this question is to use the first round scores of the amateurs in the field. So over the past 5 years the first round scoring average for the amateurs is 77.75. Remember theses are national champions, past world number 1 amateurs, guys like Bryson Dechambeau, Matt Fitzpatrick and Curtis Luck. They will have spent days there and played several practice rounds. I don't understand the slope rating as we use congu over here, I've read that the unofficial course rating is 78.1. The guys that get to play at the Masters are a bit better than your average scratch golfer. I appreciate it's a small sample.

 

This artical actually has a stat guy giving an opionion on this very subject. Don't just look at the numbers, there is a bit about a first timer.

 

 

http://Not allowed Per Todaysgolfer's UK request/news-and-events/general-news/2017/march/masters-2017-how-hard-is-augusta-national-/

 

Good stuff!

 

But remember nobody said anything about actually playing in the Masters.

 

That is a big difference.

 

For the average top amateur, you can probably add a couple strokes to their score just for the awe factor.

 

As I said it's the closest test I could think of. The OP said Sunday conditions.

 

I doubt many people could cope playing there in the event with their eyeballs shaking.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[J_Tizzle]

So I am a bit of a geek as well. The closest test I can think of for this question is to use the first round scores of the amateurs in the field. So over the past 5 years the first round scoring average for the amateurs is 77.75. Remember theses are national champions, past world number 1 amateurs, guys like Bryson Dechambeau, Matt Fitzpatrick and Curtis Luck. They will have spent days there and played several practice rounds. I don't understand the slope rating as we use congu over here, I've read that the unofficial course rating is 78.1. The guys that get to play at the Masters are a bit better than your average scratch golfer. I appreciate it's a small sample.

 

This artical actually has a stat guy giving an opionion on this very subject. Don't just look at the numbers, there is a bit about a first timer.

 

 

http://www.todaysgol...usta-national-/

 

Good stuff!

 

But remember nobody said anything about actually playing in the Masters.

 

That is a big difference.

 

For the average top amateur, you can probably add a couple strokes to their score just for the awe factor.

 

As I said it's the closest test I could think of. The OP said Sunday conditions.

 

I doubt many people could cope playing there in the event with their eyeballs shaking.

 

I would have to be taking shots in the men's room to even stand on the first tee...

[BMC]

Stipulations are no caddie, no cart, no walking the course beforehand, and 1 hour warmup before the round. Sunday tournament conditions, from the back tees.

 

With these stipulations, a Tour pro who has never played Augusta might not break 80. The whole thread is ridiculous.

[Obee]

Stipulations are no caddie, no cart, no walking the course beforehand, and 1 hour warmup before the round. Sunday tournament conditions, from the back tees.

 

With these stipulations, a Tour pro who has never played Augusta might not break 80. The whole thread is ridiculous.

 

I agree, the stipulations are ridiculous. I ignored them. LOL

[JeffreySpicoli]

The whole thread is ridiculous.

 

Very ridiculous.

 

I'm quite certain that the OP works for the ad placement company and his goal is to increase ad loads. We are all suckers that we play along.

[lowheel]

If a scratch player who

 

- hits it 260+ average

- has an excellent (not just very good) short game and iron play

- got his scratch by playing in bigger am tournaments and is used to playing long courses

- approaches the round conservatively

 

then I think he/she should be able to break 85 under the conditions the OP gave us, if his complete game is on. Maybe even close to 80 if he/she is on fire.

 

If the scratch hits it 235 on average (like obee) he would have to do miracle play to break 85, I don't care what the rest of his game looks like. He would have zero chance of reaching 1, 5, 7, 9, 10, 11, 14, 17, 18 in two, would need 3 wood or driver on 4 just to reach the green. He wouldn't even get around the corner on 18 and 13. He would have to hit a middle iron on 12 that won't hold the putting surface because he doesn't hit it hard enough. If he is not the Grand Master of chipping, pitching and long iron approach he will have a long day on and around the greens.

 

A friend of mine is a teaching pro who trained the national team of my country, he should know what he is talking about. He has been at the Masters a few times, he said that if you are not able to hit the right spots on most of the greens you can be sure to 3-putt. You get lots of uneven lies (TV gives zero clue how hilly that course actually is) and you have to know which spots on the green you should avoid at all costs. Don't be fooled by "short hitters" like Bernhard Langer or Steve Stricker still managing to get around ANGC with scores around par. These guys are not short, they hit it around 270 consistently, are excellent iron players, know the course from dozens of rounds, and they play tournaments on Senior Tour stops with -20 for three rounds. They still carry + index. If a scratch player can play a Seniors Tour stop under par on a regular basis he can get close to 80 at Augusta, if not he can forget about it.

 

@obee

 

Math doesn't always help. You said you shot 34 and 44 at LA CC, which one of these was closer to what you regularly play on courses of this caliber?

 

I had never played LACC. I walked. I weigh 285 pounds. On the back nine I was completely exhausted. If I played there 20 times, my AVERAGE score would probably be right about what I shot that day, but probably a bit lower (76ish?) I played very well on the front. And horribly on the back and I was exhausted. Depending on conditions, I could see myself shooting as low as 69 or 70 and as high as 84/85 in the type of conditions we played that day: 80 and sunny. Light wind.

 

And I don't hit it 235. I carry it 235. At a tour venue, I would hit it, total distance, 255-265 on their firm fairways.

 

Or your front was a fluke because you got up and down more often than normal and it caught up to you on the back. you admitted you hit woods into all par 4s. Go do that at augusta and come back and talk to me. You wouldnt reach the corner of the 1st hole with a 235 yard drive...

Again lacc is not augusta. If you were exhausted walking lacc then this shows me youve never been to augusta. Its a beast to walk and tv doesnt show this. You might have 3 or 4 flat lies all day. I like your confidence but you dont hit it long enough or high enough to shoot the # you think you would shoot there. I wouldnt bet your house if i were you to break 85 there.You should be proud of your score but that is a horrible comparison. You cant hit woods into augusta greens and you know this by watching the older masters champs who get killed every year doing that.

[lowheel]

I have not read this whole thread (and not planning on it), but barring horrible weather I see no issues with a "true" scratch golfer shooting 85 or better at Augusta (or any course for that matter). I don't play to scratch any

longer due to not practicing much or playing much anymore, but no matter what course I step, no matter what tee's I play from and no matter what the conditions are, I plan on shooting 75 or better. Just because its Augusta, Bethpage, Oakmont, etc... I don't see any reason for a change in thinking. Hit the fairway, hit the green, 2 putt and move onto the next one.

 

I think too many people over analyze everything such as what the pro's shoot, what their handicap is and how good they are. I know they are alot better than I am (played with many), but they want to shoot 65 and I want to shoot 75. No reason for either of us not break 85.

 

Just my 2 cents

 

I like your confidence but your post shows me ( no offense) youve never played a course of that caliber in tournament condition and pressure. Until you do it you wont know. Golf is humbling like that and alot of guys find out the hard way. I play US open Qualifiers with scratches every year and they rarely break 80. Always hear the same thing. "this is my worst round this year!" "i havent shot over 74 in like 3 years" " the slow pace is really affecting me" " if i made the putts i usually make it would be a different round ( guy who shot 81)"

 

99% of scracthes would melt on those green speeds. roughly 70% of scratches play courses from 6700 and below.

can't like this post enough. you take a scratch golf and put him in a qualifier of any decent substance -- you see what they REALLY shoot.

 

faster, tourney green speeds will make true scratch golfers shoot +4 or +5 on their best days.

 

Finally a voice of reason!!! dont forget pin placements that require you shape it in or force carry. Forged can chime in here. I played oakmont a few years back in 2007 the monday after the US open. Some top amateurs who were +1/+2s were getting killed out there barely breaking 81-82 with no pressure on...

SOME +1's/+2's were "getting killed" at arguably a tougher course, and still breaking 81 or 82. Sounds like you're making a case for a scratch shooting 81 at Augusta. You're the one using funny math. Obee's math is presumably using the best estimates for what the course rating is at Augusta in tournament conditions (yes, something like 78, not what most people here seem to think) and then using the math that says that scratch players typically average about 3 strokes over scratch.

 

The funny math that's getting used here is the guys who seem to think green speeds add 4 strokes to SCRATCH players game. The "pressure" of playing Augusta adds about another 4. not knowing the lines adds about another 4. And whatever magical forces exist to just add another couple.

 

I don't seem to know some of the scratch players you guys know.. ..the guys who get to scratch playing their local 6400 yard muni with 8 stimp greens over and over again. Pretty much every scratch I know plays -- at the very least -- in, of course, club championships, but city tournaments, state GA tournaments, probably State Ams (or mid-ams), maybe US Open quals for the fun of it. We're not talking PGA tour, but neither was the original question.Scratches have generally played a lot of golf and probably played nice courses, fast greens, maybe even played college golf. The low guys I know around here have played Congressional, been down to play Pinehurst, Erin Hills, Merion, RTJ in Virginia, Pebble, Torrey, Bethpage. And they don't go out and killed by these courses. Hitting the ball on target with good distance and getting putts started on line travels everywhere and every scratch can do that.

 

Im a teaching and touring pro so im not using funny math. Im also a +4. a scratch at 6500/6600 yard course is a 5+ at 7100+ Yard course. Add insane greenspeeds that they dont see all year if ever with slopes to boot. Forget putting try pitching and chipping on those surfaces from around the greens.

Remember op says from back tees in tourney conditions... not happening. Your buddies played those tracks presumably from their tees not the back and not in tourney conditions so not in the same ball park of difficulty. Ncaa tourney tested +1+2s were shooting 82s at oakmont a scratch would have ahard time breaking 90 especially if youre an obee scratch who cant carry the ball 250. Thats not a dig at obee just stating the realities of the banal comparisons you provided. If youve never been to augusta to witness it in person tv doesnt do it justice. If they ever grew real rough there that place would become ridiculous. As is guys cant stop wedges from the first cut now... look at how many guys putt defensively there to avoid disaster yet a scracth will be just fine on those surfaces?

 

Watch a scratch who usually plays 9.5-10.5 greens lag putt from 40 feet and then lag putt consistently from 40 feet on 12+ greens. Youll be stunned at the difference in distance left on 2nd putts. Pelz has documented this over 30 years.

[jmvargas]

for those who read my last thread i rated my friend a +4 or +5 but he could have been better although the only official hdcp that i could remember he had was +2 based on the hdcp computation parameters at that time which were a bit different vs now..

 

his 1st practice round was 79 hitting all 18 greens..

 

he also made the amateur cut 2x..

 

my friend who was there covering the 1991 Masters for a national daily told me even i could easily reach the 15th hole in 2..

 

i have no doubt a legitimate scratch handicap today could easily break 85 at Augusta..

[Obee]

If a scratch player who

 

- hits it 260+ average

- has an excellent (not just very good) short game and iron play

- got his scratch by playing in bigger am tournaments and is used to playing long courses

- approaches the round conservatively

 

then I think he/she should be able to break 85 under the conditions the OP gave us, if his complete game is on. Maybe even close to 80 if he/she is on fire.

 

If the scratch hits it 235 on average (like obee) he would have to do miracle play to break 85, I don't care what the rest of his game looks like. He would have zero chance of reaching 1, 5, 7, 9, 10, 11, 14, 17, 18 in two, would need 3 wood or driver on 4 just to reach the green. He wouldn't even get around the corner on 18 and 13. He would have to hit a middle iron on 12 that won't hold the putting surface because he doesn't hit it hard enough. If he is not the Grand Master of chipping, pitching and long iron approach he will have a long day on and around the greens.

 

A friend of mine is a teaching pro who trained the national team of my country, he should know what he is talking about. He has been at the Masters a few times, he said that if you are not able to hit the right spots on most of the greens you can be sure to 3-putt. You get lots of uneven lies (TV gives zero clue how hilly that course actually is) and you have to know which spots on the green you should avoid at all costs. Don't be fooled by "short hitters" like Bernhard Langer or Steve Stricker still managing to get around ANGC with scores around par. These guys are not short, they hit it around 270 consistently, are excellent iron players, know the course from dozens of rounds, and they play tournaments on Senior Tour stops with -20 for three rounds. They still carry + index. If a scratch player can play a Seniors Tour stop under par on a regular basis he can get close to 80 at Augusta, if not he can forget about it.

 

@obee

 

Math doesn't always help. You said you shot 34 and 44 at LA CC, which one of these was closer to what you regularly play on courses of this caliber?

 

I had never played LACC. I walked. I weigh 285 pounds. On the back nine I was completely exhausted. If I played there 20 times, my AVERAGE score would probably be right about what I shot that day, but probably a bit lower (76ish?) I played very well on the front. And horribly on the back and I was exhausted. Depending on conditions, I could see myself shooting as low as 69 or 70 and as high as 84/85 in the type of conditions we played that day: 80 and sunny. Light wind.

 

And I don't hit it 235. I carry it 235. At a tour venue, I would hit it, total distance, 255-265 on their firm fairways.

 

Or your front was a fluke because you got up and down more often than normal and it caught up to you on the back. you admitted you hit woods into all par 4s. Go do that at augusta and come back and talk to me. You wouldnt reach the corner of the 1st hole with a 235 yard drive...

Again lacc is not augusta. If you were exhausted walking lacc then this shows me youve never been to augusta. Its a beast to walk and tv doesnt show this. You might have 3 or 4 flat lies all day. I like your confidence but you dont hit it long enough or high enough to shoot the # you think you would shoot there. I wouldnt bet your house if i were you to break 85 there.You should be proud of your score but that is a horrible comparison. You cant hit woods into augusta greens and you know this by watching the older masters champs who get killed every year doing that.

 

I carry driver 235. I hit it 250 to 260 with roll. I'm short, not decrepit!

 

And on certain par 4's I would lay back to 80 yards and zip a LW to 4 feet and save par! DUH!! ;-)

[golfer929]

The whole thread is ridiculous.

 

Very ridiculous.

 

I'm quite certain that the OP works for the ad placement company and his goal is to increase ad loads. We are all suckers that we play along.

Lol, I can assure you I don't work for the ad placement company. My friend has brought this up many times and gave himself these parameters. Just wanted to know what everyone else thought.