Could a Scratch Golfer break 85 at Augusta?

[aabcuue]

What are tournament conditions?

Do we mean 30 yards of roll?

 

Perfectly manicured bunkers?

Perfectly rolled greens?

 

No ball marks? No divots?

No real rough at Augusta?

 

Greens fast enough you can't put a pin on a slope over 2%? (if you've played enough golf, you've played some course where you've rolled a putt up to a hole and had it stop and roll back to your feet. I've seen a lot of putts roll way past the holes at Augusta, or catch some slope that sent it off the green, but I don't recall ever seeing a ball roll back to someones feet after getting to the hole. I've seen it in US Opens.)

 

The mythologizing of the difficulty of these golf courses goes hand-in-hand with the mythologizing of professional golfers, like they're supposed to be 10-12 strokes better than a scratch. What a joke.

 

Give me 10 scratch golfers in this scenario, 9 of them break 85. 1/2 of them break 80.

 

Most pros are +5 to get their card. Top pros are +8. When a pro is in zone they are +10 (e.g. DJ before 17masters & Justin Thomas earlier this yr).

 

Remember tournaments courses are specifically changed each week and each day from the previous edition to increase difficulty.

 

OK. And you remember that the pros get to go out before tournaments, putt to every location, write down how the putts break in their book, practice out of the sand, which is gong to be exactly the same in the tournament, hit different shots off the tees in practice rounds, don't always play the tippie-tippies for 18 holes, etc etc.

 

Yes, I've been at PGA/ SPGA/ LPGA tournaments for multiple decades inside the ropes. I've watched and walked 18 with most pros in the field.

 

Stand w/in 5ft close up standing next to them and get a measure of their talent and how they react to the pressure. The difference between scratch and PGA touring is vast in so many areas.

 

For example, the amount of pressure permeates the air and changes everyone. In the majors pressure ramps up to create errors on routine easy shots nevermind a putt.

 

I've got the Pro yardage books including the majors and countless daily pin position sheets. Its enlightening watching and learning different ways a when & where a pro will attack a course. Pros take learning a course to another level above AMs.

[Forged4ever]

Amateurs break par at Augusta every year during the tournament.

I don't know about this statement as Scott Hagestad, the first Mid-Am to see the weekend since 1989, when they started extending an invite to the Mid-Am Champion, was low Am @ T36 and he didn't bust par once, having a pair of 73's and a pair of 74's for a +6 total.

 

I'm not gonna go back through the years to find a single Am who broke par however one, I'm pretty sure that we'd have to go back a ways, two, it's a very very very small list and finally, it hasn't happened in a while~

 

This is purely anecdotal though?

 

Stay well and have a great weekend?

RP

[ben w]

My little brother played it a couple of years ago from the back tees. He is a +2 and putting is his strength. He played well and shot 86. He said the winds were blowing 20-25 sustained though. He said that he had a ton of 3 putts and that you cannot fathom how much undulation there is on the greens. He said number 6 had the pin up on the shelf and he could not see the top of the flag from where he was putting. He also said that the undulation of the fairways gives some crazy lies. He hooked one around 13 and had an iron in, but he said it felt like the ball was even with his waist.

 

We were fortunate to have almost no wind and 70 degree temps. it was ideal, and that contributed greatly to me breaking 80.

 

Your brother is right. The sidehill lie on 13 (and many other holes) is crazy. The one I could not believe was the uphill shot into the green on 8, TV makes that look like a gently grade. It's like hitting up the face of one of those 10-lane water slides.

 

You mentioned #6... the day we played, the pin was on the bottom left. Any shot to the right would funnel its way down. I block my 6 iron and it lands on the top right small shelf! Caddie tells me "ah that's too bad you missed getting it close by six inches". We make it to the green and putt out. After, my caddie says "here is what I meant" and drops a ball from his hand at the point he was referring to earlier, and it winds up an inch from the hole.

[aabcuue]

Friend and I were having a discussion. He says he could do it and would not only break 85, but 80 as well! Stipulations are no caddie, no cart, no walking the course beforehand, and 1 hour warmup before the round. Sunday tournament conditions, from the back tees. He said he wouldn't make a double bogey, and would birdie #13. What do you all think?

 

I don't want to say zero chance. But zero chance. No caddie would be devastating. Those greens are so fast and tricky, legit tour pros with many rounds there, scouting, best caddies in the world hit putts OFF THE GREENS. Forget scratch golfers, there are many + handicaps thst don't break 90 out there. I bet half the LPGA tour doesn't break 80 out there, and they would smoke any scratch handicap man.

 

The LPGA pros are way better than you think. General consensus on on all tours is the ladies are straighter but shorter than the men in long game. Ladies are pretty equal on short game (e.g. wedges) but a tick softer on putting vs. PGA field.

 

In short, the LPGA pros would easily beat a scratch. Some Ladies are driving 280+ on measured holes including when they use their 3w.

 

The average LPGA tournament setup is now a harder 6800yd course with narrowed fairways, 11-13 fast greens and grown out, thicker rough. Typical winner is -12 to -26.

[Mcgeeno]

Wide open fairways and every scratch on the planet has probably seen every hole played 1000 times on TV. The greens would be the toughest part. No OB off the tee and no galleries there stressing you out.

 

A little time to putt and I'd like to think I could give 85 a go as a 2 cap!

 

I mean we aren't talking about breaking 70 or even 80.

 

I'm probably delusional but I would have no problem saying a scratch could get it done. I would love to watch it!

[RSK7070]

Any idea how much faster the greens play on the stimp on a tournament Sunday vs. a "regular" day at Augusta?

[xerpro]

Steph Curry just shot 74, 74 on web.com. He is a scratch player and Augusta probably plays 4-5 shots harder than that course. So 80 should be possible.

 

Steph is also a +2 and has been working on his game really hard since the finals concluded.

[grillinandgolfin]

If you survive without a double in those conditions then I'd say it's highly likely you would break 85.

 

But my guess is a first timer would have a double by the 5th hole.

[mejmo]

Wait can we clarify here, are we talking tournament "conditions" only, or an actual tournament with fans?

 

I played Torrey south a few weeks before the tournament when the rough was in, from the one up tees and shot 81 with new clubs and didn't hit it super well. Qmany shot 69 that day as a +1.

 

Obviously Augusta is harder but we're talking shooting 84 here not winning a tournament and unless I'm mistaken it's not even in front of fans

 

I played Torrey South in the summer of 2006 when they were "testing" the rough for the open. Greens were rolling at 11 and I shot 39 front 44 back from the tips (11 playing at 245 and 12 was 507). I just graduated from highschool and didn't have a HI at the time...probably a 5 or 6 as I played two years of JUCO golf at "scratch." I was surprised how easy it was. It was lonnnngg, but not tricky by any means. My solid short game and good driving game made it play "easy." I bet that ANGC isn't much different and most people know the course (where to miss it) because they've seen it so much on TV. I honestly think I would have a shot at 85 and I'm not at the caliber I was in college. I would put money on him breaking 80 if he is truly a "tournament scratch."

[MtlJeff]

Wait can we clarify here, are we talking tournament "conditions" only, or an actual tournament with fans?

 

I played Torrey south a few weeks before the tournament when the rough was in, from the one up tees and shot 81 with new clubs and didn't hit it super well. Qmany shot 69 that day as a +1.

 

Obviously Augusta is harder but we're talking shooting 84 here not winning a tournament and unless I'm mistaken it's not even in front of fans

 

I played Torrey South in the summer of 2006 when they were "testing" the rough for the open. Greens were rolling at 11 and I shot 39 front 44 back from the tips (11 playing at 245 and 12 was 507). I just graduated from highschool and didn't have a HI at the time...probably a 5 or 6 as I played two years of JUCO golf at "scratch." I was surprised how easy it was. It was lonnnngg, but not tricky by any means. My solid short game and good driving game made it play "easy." I bet that ANGC isn't much different and most people know the course (where to miss it) because they've seen it so much on TV. I honestly think I would have a shot at 85 and I'm not at the caliber I was in college. I would put money on him breaking 80 if he is truly a "tournament scratch."

 

Yeah the length and rough seem to be the real defence. Greens were not crazy and everything is right in front of you. The rough on 7 was like knee length and I only hit one fairway all day!

 

Even from 6800 with one fairway, I thought 81 was pretty good. Lol

 

I was interviewed by callaway after the round (it was part of the WRX trip) and told them I wished they had fit me for a lawn mower

[Big Fudge]

Threads like this is why I love this site!! These debates always become quite entertaining.

[Forged4ever]

Any idea how much faster the greens play on the stimp on a tournament Sunday vs. a "regular" day at Augusta?

Again, purely anecdotal however this is about as good as we'll get outside of Ben's first hand views~

 

http://amp.timeinc.net/golfmonthlyuk/tour/us-masters/augusta-blog/127020-127020?source=dam

 

They guesstimated 12 with a peak of 15.

 

That's a hell of a variance cuz Oakmont might hit 15 on Thursday and Sunday.

 

Maybe...

 

My Best?

RP

[benno_r]

How many scratch markers in the US? Maybe 100000?

 

A few people here are adamant not a single one of them could break 85? Really?

[North Texas]

Here's my anecdotal story.

 

Played Pebble less than 2 weeks after the 2010 U.S. Open. Greens weren't near as fast as during the tournament but the rough was still up and fairways still narrow. Didn't play well with a couple of big numbers on 8 and 18 and didn't break 100. Of course, I am a 10 handicapper.

 

But hey, I'm getting a 2nd chance this October.

[Forged4ever]

Amateurs break par at Augusta every year during the tournament.

I don't know about this statement as Scott Hagestad, the first Mid-Am to see the weekend since 1989, when they started extending an invite to the Mid-Am Champion, was low Am @ T36 and he didn't bust par once, having a pair of 73's and a pair of 74's for a +6 total.

 

I'm not gonna go back through the years to find a single Am who broke par however one, I'm pretty sure that we'd have to go back a ways, two, it's a very very very small list and finally, it hasn't happened in a while~

 

This is purely anecdotal though?

 

Stay well and have a great weekend?

RP

This is the first time that I've ever responded to myself and this is second only to speaking in the third for DBaggery however I went back and in 2015, Canadian Am Cory Conners fired a second round 69(-3), with a double on 10, though he finished at +5 to miss the cut by 3, as it was 144(+2).

 

That's a hell of a turn around, 80-69, especially for an Am

In the Masters.

 

I sorta like responding to myself~

 

Nicely Played Jake??

 

Cheers?

RP

[North Texas]

Amateurs break par at Augusta every year during the tournament.

I don't know about this statement as Scott Hagestad, the first Mid-Am to see the weekend since 1989, when they started extending an invite to the Mid-Am Champion, was low Am @ T36 and he didn't bust par once, having a pair of 73's and a pair of 74's for a +6 total.

 

I'm not gonna go back through the years to find a single Am who broke par however one, I'm pretty sure that we'd have to go back a ways, two, it's a very very very small list and finally, it hasn't happened in a while~

 

This is purely anecdotal though��

 

Stay well and have a great weekend��

RP

This is the first time that I've ever responded to myself and this is second only to speaking in the third for DBaggery however I went back and in 2015, Canadian Am Cory Conners fired a second round 69(-3), with a double on 10, though he finished at +5 to miss the cut by 3, as it was 144(+2).

 

That's a hell of a turn around, 80-69, especially for an Am

In the Masters.

 

I sorta like responding to myself~

 

Nicely Played Jake����

 

Cheers��

RP

 

The wife just laughs at me when I talk respond to myself :)

[aabcuue]

How many scratch markers in the US? Maybe 100000?

 

A few people here are adamant not a single one of them could break 85? Really?

 

Here's how many per the USGA:

http://www.usga.org/content/usga/home-page/Handicapping/handicap-index-statistics/mens-handicap-index-statistics-d24e6096.html

 

So basically 1.5% of all golfers with a handicap are actually scratch

[wcoonen]

It's possible, I suppose. Then again, getting hit by a meteor is also a possibility...and I'd say about as likely.

[Shilgy]

 

 

AN still wouldn't be the toughest in NA. There is a course in Hawaii that has to regularly fix stuff to lower its rating to 156. Its original rating was 180+. Think of landing zones in rain forest amongst the lava field.

 

Ben's round was very close to 02 Open conditions. Ben is not typical AM as he hits 300+ and regularly plays Oakmont. He was a 4 then and had a lingering injury.

 

Fwiw, Black in 02 had harder conditions than the Barclays usually.

 

Still think 09 Open conditions were worse after rain rl thicken up & raised the fescue.

Maximum slope is 155.

[Obee]

Yes. End of discussion. Next topic.

 

It's possible, I suppose. Then again, getting hit by a meteor is also a possibility...and I'd say about as likely.

 

You don't understand golf. Good try, though!

[Obee]

Steph Curry just shot 74, 74 on web.com. He is a scratch player and Augusta probably plays 4-5 shots harder than that course. So 80 should be possible.

 

Steph is also a +2 and has been working on his game really hard since the finals concluded.

 

+0.7 as of two weeks ago.

[Shilgy]

Steph Curry just shot 74, 74 on web.com. He is a scratch player and Augusta probably plays 4-5 shots harder than that course. So 80 should be possible.

 

Steph is also a +2 and has been working on his game really hard since the finals concluded.

 

+0.7 as of two weeks ago.

Now at +1.2

[Dr. Block]

A member of my club shot a 76 there from the member tees. He's a 3 index. He said the magic of being there brought out the best in his game that day. He said it was the best iron striking round of his life, so he didn't face too many difficult lag putts. Our club is an old bendelow design with some of the most severe greens you'll find anywhere - so he was properly prepared

[ldchristopher]

I guess breaking 85 would depend on a few different factors:

1. What types of greens does this guy usually putt on? If he plays at places that are known for heavy undulation on the greens then, yes, he'd have a chance at breaking 85. I don't know about breaking 80, but 85 seems doable. If, on the other hand, he plays munis or country clubs with greens that don't move too much, he's got no chance.

2. Weather. If it's consistent 20-30 mph winds, then a decent score isn't happening. If it's little to no wind, there's hope.

3. What's his strength? If it's putting, then he's got a shot. He might struggle early to figure out the greens but if he gets it going as the round progresses, then sub-85 is doable. If his strength is tee to green but he's a bit pedestrian on the greens, he's in for a long day.

 

[Jordan Speeth]

I’ve never been to Augusta National so it’s hard to know but I do have lots of experience with another notoriously difficult course in tournament setup. The only difference is that this one is pretty darned difficult in everyday “members” condition too. I have seen literally dozens of scratch/low hc's shoot 90+ (if they're counting them all) on their first visit to the Olympic Club and that members' setup has nothing in common with the US Open setup. They used to leave it alone for a week after an Open for us to play and it was a friggin' bloodbath. You have to be accustomed to playing a course set up for a Major. The greens alone are diabolical. I was watching some YouTubes of the '12 Open and, having everyday experience to relate to, it was hard to believe how fast those greens were. They're tough enough at a 7 or 8, much less 12 or 13. So, without a caddie, it's gonna have to be a career round to break 80. It's not doubles I'm worried about, it's the "others".

[emncaity]

Of course he "could." But he probably wouldn't, because it would take him out of his game and he'd start trying to do things he can't do.

 

Depending on what kind of game he (or I guess she, but we'll stick with "he" for convenience) had, of course it could happen. If it's a matter of a scratch handicap on a ridiculously easy course with no penalty for missing fairways or greens, no slope to the greens, etc., that could be tough. But somebody whose scratch comes at least in part because of reasonably good ballstriking? Sure. If you stay away from big numbers, you can bogey two-thirds of the holes and do it. Can you get anywhere near the green in regulation, then pitch it or chip it to some point where it won't take you more than two putts to get down? There ya go.

 

Just a (fairly relevant) story about when I was living in Austin for a year. Played a little competitively, but not like I had previously, when I had been a plus-2 and then played as a pro for a while (also taught). Regained amateur status, probably still about plus-2 during that year.

 

Anyhow, all year I heard stories about Tom Kite playing at this course and that course, and one of the most consistent things I heard was that he wasn't necessarily the guy you thought would make one of the top players in the world, because he wasn't a scary-low-numbers-all-the-time kind of shooter. Not a 62 twice a month, that kind of thing. Lots of 68-to-71 kind of scores. People thought "Eh, guys like Crenshaw and the top guys on the tour are just too brilliant. We've got high-school players who can do that around here."

 

But at some point it started to dawn on them that he just kept shooting those scores as he moved up in level, on into NCAA tournaments, onto the tour, etc. It's because the way he shot the scores was as good at one course or one level as another -- fairways, greens, tidy around and on the greens, just a whole bunch of easy 69s and 70s and like that. Not that he never shot lower -- of course he did occasionally -- but the point is, the nature of his game was such that it was secure and played anywhere, on any stage. Which is on-point to the question of what kind of scratch player could have a non-disastrous round at Augusta, or maybe even a pretty good one.

 

Have to say one more thing about Kite while I'm here, sorry, but I just think the guy is underappreciated:

 

While I was there, the Legends was still being held at Barton Creek. I got to go out early in the week for an exhibition match with Trevino, Chi Chi, Crenshaw, and Kite. They were all terrific and in a great mood. Trevino's ballstriking in particular was...I don't even know how to describe it, other than like an experienced musician or artist who is totally secure and confident in what he's doing. If you're a good player, you know how it feels and sounds to hit a control shot -- like when you're between clubs and take the longer club, choke up a little, shorten the swing a little, etc. -- and you hit it absolutely smack on the sweet spot, no vibration, with a little lower sound? Perfect? Every iron he hit was like that. Every freaking one. I'll never forget it. Kite was like a machine, just an efficient "snick" with a tight ball flight. Crenshaw was like he was when he was younger -- a little spray-oriented, but still a beauty to watch. Chi Chi was Chi Chi. Herman was still caddying for Trevino. It was a blast.

 

So after the thing is over, people are lined up waiting to catch the shuttle back to a parking lot up the hill. Kite comes out of the clubhouse, and instead of avoiding people, getting somebody to run him in a cart back to his car, end-running the line, waiting until everybody's gone, etc., he walks right to the line on the way to his car and stops for a good five minutes, telling everybody thanks for coming, recognizing a person here and there, etc. It was clear that he did it deliberately and made a point of it.

 

But anyway...yeah. Scratch player. Augusta. Keep your head screwed on, know your actual distances, be smart about where you're missing it. Don't ask yourself to do what you can't do. Just do what you can do. Be comfortable in that. Which, in fact, is what a good pro does.

[emncaity]

I have seen literally dozens of scratch/low hc's shoot 90+ (if they're counting them all) on their first visit to the Olympic Club and that members' setup has nothing in common with the US Open setup. They used to leave it alone for a week after an Open for us to play and it was a friggin' bloodbath. You have to be accustomed to playing a course set up for a Major. The greens alone are diabolical. I was watching some YouTubes of the '12 Open and, having everyday experience to relate to, it was hard to believe how fast those greens were. They're tough enough at a 7 or 8, much less 12 or 13. So, without a caddie, it's gonna have to be a career round to break 80. It's not doubles I'm worried about, it's the "others".

 

I can see Olympic being absolutely brutal, especially for somebody who hasn't played it and doesn't understand the effects of slope and elements there.

[emncaity]

Steph Curry just shot 74, 74 on web.com. He is a scratch player and Augusta probably plays 4-5 shots harder than that course. So 80 should be possible.

 

Steph is also a +2 and has been working on his game really hard since the finals concluded.

 

+0.7 as of two weeks ago.

Now at +1.2

 

Curry also made every putt he looked at. Normal putting day puts him at 78 or 80. Which is still not so terrible, but I mean, people made way too big a deal out of it, as they did with Jordan.

[emncaity]

Here's my anecdotal story.

 

Played Pebble less than 2 weeks after the 2010 U.S. Open. Greens weren't near as fast as during the tournament but the rough was still up and fairways still narrow. Didn't play well with a couple of big numbers on 8 and 18 and didn't break 100. Of course, I am a 10 handicapper.

 

But hey, I'm getting a 2nd chance this October.

 

Good luck. Post back. I'd be interested.

 

Also, think about what club you can put in the fairway, yeah?

[emncaity]

How many scratch markers in the US? Maybe 100000?

 

A few people here are adamant not a single one of them could break 85? Really?

 

Nope, not really. Some would. Depends on the person's mental game, ability to keep wits about him, ability to figure out what it takes to make about one par every three holes and no worse than bogey on the rest. I mean, you could hit 5-iron 5-iron wedge to some of those holes and never make worse than bogey, but not everybody will have the discipline to do that when it matters. It's when people try stupid stuff they can't actually pull off that they make it impossible. Has a lot to do with how brutally honest a person is with his own game. Also with imagination on and around the greens. Also with whether he's the kind to get overwhelmed by the occasion.