Monte and GG vs AMG - hand path on the downswing

[airjammer]

There is obviously some down to start....and obviously high handicappers have too much out.

 

The reason for the talk about the out is well over 50 % of the single digits that come to me have way too much down and path gets too right. Too much drop in the slot and swing to right field.

 

The video you posted of mine is less about handpath and more about sequencing. The left arm actually adducts a few degrees in transition and that’s when the down happens. If it’s adductng double digit, then you have an issue. That’s what that video is for.

 

Edit....it’s also about backswing. DJ is going to need more down, while Kuch and Dufner will need more out.

 

Here is a simple handpath video.

 

Excellent discussion to have. ALMOST everyone whose handpath is too vertical is because the left shoulder doesn't stay down long enough in transition and/or they are getting too much secondary tilt too early. Stay on top with the upper center and keep left shoulder down and it is ALMOST impossible to to stick the arms too deep and across the chest.

 

That’s been the move I have been working on, coupled with forward leg ‘dropping the bucket/squat’

 

The hardest part is getting these two feels to combine into one.

 

Been working on this with Dan C since my trip to see him. So far it seems the harder I go down with the left shoulder the harder it is to get the left leg external. Definitely can see why some instructors like to unweight the lead leg.

[TB07]

There is obviously some down to start....and obviously high handicappers have too much out.

 

The reason for the talk about the out is well over 50 % of the single digits that come to me have way too much down and path gets too right. Too much drop in the slot and swing to right field.

 

The video you posted of mine is less about handpath and more about sequencing. The left arm actually adducts a few degrees in transition and that’s when the down happens. If it’s adductng double digit, then you have an issue. That’s what that video is for.

 

Edit....it’s also about backswing. DJ is going to need more down, while Kuch and Dufner will need more out.

 

Here is a simple handpath video.

 

Excellent discussion to have. ALMOST everyone whose handpath is too vertical is because the left shoulder doesn't stay down long enough in transition and/or they are getting too much secondary tilt too early. Stay on top with the upper center and keep left shoulder down and it is ALMOST impossible to to stick the arms too deep and across the chest.

 

That’s been the move I have been working on, coupled with forward leg ‘dropping the bucket/squat’

 

The hardest part is getting these two feels to combine into one.

 

Been working on this with Dan C since my trip to see him. So far it seems the harder I go down with the left shoulder the harder it is to get the left leg external. Definitely can see why some instructors like to unweight the lead leg.

 

Should be easier to get it external they go together

[Nard_S]

Seems good hand path is a function of good path for most everything else. Keeping lead shoulder lower, longer in transition and on, coupled with lower body action makes it a lot easier to find right path.

[games]

Nicely played, OP! Invoking Monte and Gankas then comparing them with some outfit I never heard of. Brilliant. Dilly dilly, I say! Dilly dilly!

[Fort Worth Pro]

Nicely played, OP! Invoking Monte and Gankas then comparing them with some outfit I never heard of. Brilliant. Dilly dilly, I say! Dilly dilly!

 

AMG is Shawn Webb, Mike granato, and Scott Hamilton. Not exactly nobody

[MonteScheinblum]

It’s less cut and dry than this is the way to fix everyone.

 

Some need more down, some need more out. Some need to keep left shoulder lower, some need to release left arm. Some need more secondary, some need less.

 

A guy that sees this video, that has a gap between is right elbow and torso at 6 and a path 5-10 right and thinks he needs more down. Dead. A guy who is badly OTT with his hand path that tries to release his left arm...worse than dead.

[TB07]

Nicely played, OP! Invoking Monte and Gankas then comparing them with some outfit I never heard of. Brilliant. Dilly dilly, I say! Dilly dilly!

 

AMG is Shawn Webb, Mike granato, and Scott Hamilton. Not exactly nobody

 

AMG is pretty well known.

[chrisgilly09]

Using pressure sensors, when in the ds does pressure really start getting left? Trying to figure out if I have to much or too little to rotate/external the leg most effectively

[BottleCap]

Nicely played, OP! Invoking Monte and Gankas then comparing them with some outfit I never heard of. Brilliant. Dilly dilly, I say! Dilly dilly!

 

AMG is Shawn Webb, Mike granato, and Scott Hamilton. Not exactly nobody

 

AMG is pretty well known.

 

Not well enough to reach the center of the world, Wisconsin

[airjammer]

Using pressure sensors, when in the ds does pressure really start getting left? Trying to figure out if I have to much or too little to rotate/external the leg most effectively

 

You are really going to have to get on bodytrak or a swing catalyst to really feel it yourself but you are starting to get pressure left before your backswing is finished. Mike granato had me lift my left foot up off the ground when I started my backswing and place it back down immediately this got my pressure left at the right time. It felt to me that my pressure was left by p3 in my backswing.

[northgolf]

I keep getting lured into this thread thinking AMG refers to Anna Marie Goddard and that there will be awesome picts

[juststeve]

A lot of this is really common sense. Consider where your hands are at the end of the back swing relative to where you want them at impact. They are above, inside and behind where they need to be at impact. Therefore the hands must move down, out and forward to hit the ball. Whether an instructor emphasizes the down, out or forward should depend on what the student of the moment needs. This is why it is best to see an instructor in person and get individual instruction.

 

Steve

[BottleCap]

Let’s wait for part 2 of the AMG video. That gears software is neat.

[BottleCap]

Here's part 2.

 

 

 

Why don't they just tell us what we need to do? Does that cost money?

[powerpushfade]

Faldo drill all day for me!

[BottleCap]

I think you have to just keep the hands close to the body. I'm thinking when you move the hands towards the ball, it's a mini malaska move, which does not work for me.

[Hilts1969]

 

 

Anyone else work on this? What are the dangers I need to look out for?

 

As a golfer who has suffered pretty serious bouts of shanking this move has always scared me to death. I have only hit a few balls inside so far(no shanks) and am hitting the range tomorrow.

 

I presume getting hands deep on the backswing and holding back right hip and shoulder is key. I was trying the Bradley feeling of trying to get the hands right over the ball and was amazed I actually not the ball but I did. I hit a few on the thin side. Just wondering what to look out for.

[oz dee cee]

Thanks for revitalizing this thread. I’m trying to train this exact thought at present. Gee it’s tough! Golf is hard!

[Wesquire]

My hand path used to be too down. Monte helped me make it better. Now I've overdone it and need to work on getting more down.

[Hilts1969]

Thanks for revitalizing this thread. I’m trying to train this exact thought at present. Gee it’s tough! Golf is hard!

 

Until I hit the range I’m going off Impact at the moment and trying to get an aim point. Hughes talked about sending them out towards his golf bag but on 2d video it’s hard to judge precisely where that is. It feels strange having the hands higher and further out. It feels like they are going right out to the target line but as he says they don’t. I have a sofa directly in front of me at set up so tried aiming my hands towards the top of it at various points.

 

Finally settled on a point(small side table lol) 45 degrees path past the ball about 2 and a half foot from the ball. I’m hoping this gets the shaft to point outside the ball coming down and hands in front of body about belly high. My reasoning is these in slow motion feel too flat and too high but in a swing they won’t get there.

 

I haven’t shanked or hit out of the toe yet just a couple of thins. Will try moving ball position a bit.

 

Will report back

[Golf nerd]

Another interesting clip about hand path in the light of S&T. Nick points out the relationship of how much the hands move in and up on the backswing and how that can effect the downswing hand path.

[Hilts1969]

My hand path used to be too down. Monte helped me make it better. Now I've overdone it and need to work on getting more down.

 

What happens when you overdo it?

[smdykas]

In a very technical since they are all correct. The hands do work towards the target line as they work down. The guys at AMG are correct though that there is more down than out in top players and most poor players move too much out and not enough down.

 

You are spot on. I think this video really is what matters more.

 

 

 

I started doing this instead of hips...big difference for me!!

[Hilts1969]

In a very technical since they are all correct. The hands do work towards the target line as they work down. The guys at AMG are correct though that there is more down than out in top players and most poor players move too much out and not enough down.

 

You are spot on. I think this video really is what matters more.

 

 

 

I started doing this instead of hips...big difference for me!!

 

My names hilts and I have been a golfyoutubeaholic for 20 years, I have been clean for 3 hours.

 

My range session went very well much better than expected.

 

Relax up deep out

[Nard_S]

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Anyone else work on this? What are the dangers I need to look out for?

 

As a golfer who has suffered pretty serious bouts of shanking this move has always scared me to death. I have only hit a few balls inside so far(no shanks) and am hitting the range tomorrow.

 

I presume getting hands deep on the backswing and holding back right hip and shoulder is key. I was trying the Bradley feeling of trying to get the hands right over the ball and was amazed I actually not the ball but I did. I hit a few on the thin side. Just wondering what to look out for.

 

I work on it and have had hit/miss success with it. Had range sessions where I feel like I'm throwing butt of club out to horizon and hit some very very pure irons with it. But move is highly dependent on body doing most all things correct. Pivot, hips, knees, shoulders, tilt.....you name it but got to get it near right. So I went away from it to some degree and have been more focused on those things.In the Monte video he mentions getting the "throw out" synced with hips, this hit to home me. Last range session first dozen swings I was free and rotating nicely and basically executing the move without trying. Then I"tried" and things went to hell.So I care about this but I care more shoring up legs, hips and core. I do that, the move gets a lot easier with more success.

[Hilts1969]

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Anyone else work on this? What are the dangers I need to look out for?

 

As a golfer who has suffered pretty serious bouts of shanking this move has always scared me to death. I have only hit a few balls inside so far(no shanks) and am hitting the range tomorrow.

 

I presume getting hands deep on the backswing and holding back right hip and shoulder is key. I was trying the Bradley feeling of trying to get the hands right over the ball and was amazed I actually not the ball but I did. I hit a few on the thin side. Just wondering what to look out for.

 

I work on it and have had hit/miss success with it. Had range sessions where I feel like I'm throwing butt of club out to horizon and hit some very very pure irons with it. But move is highly dependent on body doing most all things correct. Pivot, hips, knees, shoulders, tilt.....you name it but got to get it near right. So I went away from it to some degree and have been more focused on those things.In the Monte video he mentions getting the "throw out" synced with hips, this hit to home me. Last range session first dozen swings I was free and rotating nicely and basically executing the move without trying. Then I"tried" and things went to hell.So I care about this but I care more shoring up legs, hips and core. I do that, the move gets a lot easier with more success.

 

I started by trying to hold back the right hip and shoulder and results were okay if a little forced, same with trying to have an aiming point(nice draw though). Luckily for me I rembered the hand path video above and it reminded me of something from way back about a backswing move I did. Don’t think of any body part just

 

Up (wrist hinge)

 

Deep(hands go around me with the club quite steep, feels like maintaining the L shape between arm and shaft)

 

Out(feels like a baseball swing all out and forward no down)

 

Pre shot is the above hinge pause deep pause out stop. Hands are waist high in front of me. On the actual shot I just recreate that feeling saying up deep out

 

Trusting you will hit the ball swinging 3 foot above it is the hard part.

 

The relax part came when I got a 5 wood out. Topped the first one. Relax and hit it like a wedge stupid. No problems after that.

 

Can I trust swinging like this on the course? Swinging well over the ball, we will see.

[Silky]

In a very technical since they are all correct. The hands do work towards the target line as they work down. The guys at AMG are correct though that there is more down than out in top players and most poor players move too much out and not enough down.

 

You are spot on. I think this video really is what matters more.

 

 

 

I started doing this instead of hips...big difference for me!!

 

Preconditions during transition before I rev up the pivot main engines (pelvis and torso rotations around the spine): right arm externally rotated and partially extended with right forearm perpendicular to the spine; weight sufficiently shifted leftward to bring the left hip inline with the left leg in flexion ready to extend.

 

The external rotation of the right arm would affix the right upperarm to the torso as part of the pivot, to be rotated together with the pivot and also very importantly would maintain the right tension and torsion in the transverse plane between the pivot and the arms.

 

The right forearm being perpendicular to the spine would provide the right geometry for the leverage in counterbalancing and counteracting between the left side of the upperbody and the hands and club.

 

The weight shift not only feeds the left hip to be propelled later by the left leg but also tilts the spine bringing the right forearm further down to the shaft plane and also prepares for the counterbalancing between the golfer and the flying club during follow through.

 

Once the preconditions are established the golfer can fully rotate the pelvis and then the torso to propel the hands and club.

 

That is my current understanding of Hogan's free ride down, Moe's Master Move, Moehogan's CW rotation of the right arm and how the hand path is determined during transition.

[MonteScheinblum]

Most, if not all of the “down” for many good players, comes from regaining flexion and not from “dropping it in the slot.”

 

To quote Hedley Lamar, “I hate that cliche.”

[TB07]

As has been mentioned it’s both down and out and a lot depends on backswing and desired ball flight. I don’t create enough depth in BS and get arms too far out in downswing. For me I try and feel arms deeper but trail arm more in front and increase the depth in early transition while trail arm stays more in front.

[Hilts1969]

In a very technical since they are all correct. The hands do work towards the target line as they work down. The guys at AMG are correct though that there is more down than out in top players and most poor players move too much out and not enough down.

 

You are spot on. I think this video really is what matters more.

 

 

 

I started doing this instead of hips...big difference for me!!

 

Preconditions during transition before I rev up the pivot main engines (pelvis and torso rotations around the spine): right arm externally rotated and partially extended with right forearm perpendicular to the spine; weight sufficiently shifted leftward to bring the left hip inline with the left leg in flexion ready to extend.

 

The external rotation of the right arm would affix the right upperarm to the torso as part of the pivot, to be rotated together with the pivot and also very importantly would maintain the right tension and torsion in the transverse plane between the pivot and the arms.

 

The right forearm being perpendicular to the spine would provide the right geometry for the leverage in counterbalancing and counteracting between the left side of the upperbody and the hands and club.

 

The weight shift not only feeds the left hip to be propelled later by the left leg but also tilts the spine bringing the right forearm further down to the shaft plane and also prepares for the counterbalancing between the golfer and the flying club during follow through.

 

Once the preconditions are established the golfer can fully rotate the pelvis and then the torso to propel the hands and club.

 

That is my current understanding of Hogan's free ride down, Moe's Master Move, Moehogan's CW rotation of the right arm and how the hand path is determined during transition.

 

Just put this in google translate and my iPad exploded