who has actually played with a legit scratch golfer/pro level player?

[phizzy30]

On 10/1/2023 at 10:43 AM, acemandrake said:

The difference I saw when playing with a 0 hcp. and a 5 hcp. was around the greens.

 

The 5 got those shots inside a 6 ft. circle.  The 0 got them inside 3 ft.

Sounds like me except the two guys I play with are both + cap golfers.  One is my client who plays on the Mackenzie Tour and the other player was the #2 at UCR who still plays in several AM tournaments and works for the USGA.  These guys are magic with their wedges and are on a different level.  I'm a 4 cap and I'm happy if I can put the ball within 5 feet on a chip around the green. 

[ProV1Killa]

44 minutes ago, phizzy30 said:

You do realize that Tiger's handicap in 2000 was +9.  So what you're saying is that you were a legit +9 cap coming outta college........

And you do realize that Tiger quit officially maintaining a handicap when he joined the PGA tour?  In 2000 his "handicap" was statistically calculated using known rounds, which means the rounds posted in competition.  

 

If you ever wonder just how much better touring pros are than all others this is a good example.  Was I a card carrying +6, yes.  Did I have a number of practice rounds that went low, yes.  Does that mean I was as good as Tiger, no.  My index came from rounds played on courses that are the same as anyone else would play on a given day, and some tournament rounds set up for collegiate tournaments.  Compare that to the recreated handicaps you see for top pros.  Tigers index in 2000 included rounds played on the hardest courses in existence, setup to play as hard as they could, and all while playing in a mental pressure cooker for millions of dollars.  With-that-said, I still couldn't catch up to him playing local munis, and mildly difficult private courses.

[Louis_Posture]

On 8/30/2023 at 4:47 PM, Orchardist said:

It's all about the putter approaching the upper tier let alone playing on any type of money tour.  Everyone flags it and everyone has finely executed recovery shots. A putt missed here, a putt missed there and Any negative thought of doubt over a period of time ends most dreams stone cold on the green.  

Yes, putting., but really all the shots within 20 yards of the green. This is the difference I've observed comparing the thousands of good club pros and amateurs versus Tour pros.

[phizzy30]

1 hour ago, ProV1Killa said:

And you do realize that Tiger quit officially maintaining a handicap when he joined the PGA tour?  In 2000 his "handicap" was statistically calculated using known rounds, which means the rounds posted in competition.  

 

If you ever wonder just how much better touring pros are than all others this is a good example.  Was I a card carrying +6, yes.  Did I have a number of practice rounds that went low, yes.  Does that mean I was as good as Tiger, no.  My index came from rounds played on courses that are the same as anyone else would play on a given day, and some tournament rounds set up for collegiate tournaments.  Compare that to the recreated handicaps you see for top pros.  Tigers index in 2000 included rounds played on the hardest courses in existence, setup to play as hard as they could, and all while playing in a mental pressure cooker for millions of dollars.  With-that-said, I still couldn't catch up to him playing local munis, and mildly difficult private courses.

I don't know how old you are or if you've played tournaments like the Mid-Am, Western Am, etc but most of those guys don't carry a +6 or better handicap.  What you're saying may very well be true, but if you're just an average Joe standing in the gallery like me, it's really hard to believe someone that claims to a +6 on paper but thinks he was really a +9 at one time. +3 or +4, sure it's crazy good, but +6 or better is god-like.  Not hating, but skeptical.  Hell, I love playing with + cap guys. 

Edited October 16, 2023 by phizzy30

[Louis_Posture]

3 minutes ago, phizzy30 said:

I don't know how old you are or if you've played tournaments like the Mid-Am, Western Am, etc but most of those guys don't carry a +6 or better handicap.  

There are betting handicaps and bragging handicaps. So, a player can create whichever handicap index he likes. In junior golf among 15-17 year old players for example, plus handicaps struggling to break 80 is common.

[phizzy30]

Just now, Louis_Posture said:

There are betting handicaps and bragging handicaps. So, a player can create whichever handicap index he likes. In junior golf among 15-17 year old players for example, plus handicaps struggling to break 80 is common.

Yep.  Vanity caps and sand baggers is what we call them.  I've played against kids in high school and college that would do what you posted. 

[ProV1Killa]

34 minutes ago, phizzy30 said:

Mid-Am, Western Am, etc but most of those guys don't carry a +6

And think about the rounds those players have in their handicaps.  They too have several rounds each year on courses setup to be more than challenging.  At some point putting rounds in doesn't do anything for you.  If a mid handicap plays 2 or 3 under on a USGA setup course that is impressive.  What do you think that same player is carding during practice rounds on their home course?  Do you believe they enter every one of those rounds in the system?

[ProV1Killa]

36 minutes ago, Louis_Posture said:

So, a player can create whichever handicap index he likes. In junior golf among 15-17 year old players for example, plus handicaps struggling to break 80 is common.

What are the chances that the handicap was directed by a coach or parent and intended to meet minimum requirements for tournament entry?  At the same time playing with your friends and family is a different level of pressure than stepping into the tournament arena.

[Louis_Posture]

33 minutes ago, ProV1Killa said:

What are the chances that the handicap was directed by a coach or parent and intended to meet minimum requirements for tournament entry?  At the same time playing with your friends and family is a different level of pressure than stepping into the tournament arena.

Betting handicap players typically tank inconsequential shot (s) to produce artificially high scores.

Bragging handicap players tend to make up low scores and, or only post their lowest scores and declare their high scoring days as "practice round, not for posting".

I don't believe parents and certainly not coaches influence the posting of scores. If anything they probably roll their eyes at a youngster who struggle to break 80 yet claims to be a +1 index.

[Phabs]

3 hours ago, Louis_Posture said:

Betting handicap players typically tank inconsequential shot (s) to produce artificially high scores.

Bragging handicap players tend to make up low scores and, or only post their lowest scores and declare their high scoring days as "practice round, not for posting".

I don't believe parents and certainly not coaches influence the posting of scores. If anything they probably roll their eyes at a youngster who struggle to break 80 yet claims to be a +1 index.

I play with them all the time - most guys that are scratch or better don't need to tell you how good they are.   That's usually my first clue that someone's full of it 

 

I hardly ever tell anyone what my index is unless they pry for an answer.  I played with a high school friend last week that I haven't seen in probably ten years - his buddy he brought was a "scratch" golfer who fired a low 90 round on a pretty easy course. 

[kiwigolf72]

14 hours ago, ProV1Killa said:

And you do realize that Tiger quit officially maintaining a handicap when he joined the PGA tour?  In 2000 his "handicap" was statistically calculated using known rounds, which means the rounds posted in competition.  

 

If you ever wonder just how much better touring pros are than all others this is a good example.  Was I a card carrying +6, yes.  Did I have a number of practice rounds that went low, yes.  Does that mean I was as good as Tiger, no.  My index came from rounds played on courses that are the same as anyone else would play on a given day, and some tournament rounds set up for collegiate tournaments.  Compare that to the recreated handicaps you see for top pros.  Tigers index in 2000 included rounds played on the hardest courses in existence, setup to play as hard as they could, and all while playing in a mental pressure cooker for millions of dollars.  With-that-said, I still couldn't catch up to him playing local munis, and mildly difficult private courses.

not sure in 2000 tiger was posting tournament rounds for his HC 

[ThinkingPlus]

10 minutes ago, kiwigolf72 said:

not sure in 2000 tiger was posting tournament rounds for his HC 

Media did it to generate a story...

[ProV1Killa]

9 hours ago, kiwigolf72 said:

not sure in 2000 tiger was posting tournament rounds for his HC 

In 2000 Tiger didn't post any scores for handicap. Active PGA Tour players are not indexed.  

[GreenMachine]

I played with a friend of my brother who is amateur scout for a NHL team that is a scratch golfer . I played him and my brother it was his 1st time golfing for the season after not playing for 9 months . He shot par that day and missed about 4 birdie putts it was a sight.

[kiwigolf72]

6 hours ago, ProV1Killa said:

In 2000 Tiger didn't post any scores for handicap. Active PGA Tour players are not indexed.  

 not what you claimed earlier.

 

" Tigers index in 2000 included rounds played on the hardest courses in existence, setup to play as hard as they could, and all while playing in a mental pressure cooker for millions of dollars.  With-that-said, I still couldn't catch up to him playing local munis, and mildly difficult private courses."

[phizzy30]

21 hours ago, Phabs said:

I play with them all the time - most guys that are scratch or better don't need to tell you how good they are.   That's usually my first clue that someone's full of it 

 

I hardly ever tell anyone what my index is unless they pry for an answer.  I played with a high school friend last week that I haven't seen in probably ten years - his buddy he brought was a "scratch" golfer who fired a low 90 round on a pretty easy course. 

Agree 100%.  My buddy who's a +3 never tells anyone his handicap.  My client(tour pro) shot a 64 the first time we played together and our convo that day was about everything but golf.  + cap guys let their game do the talking.  Your post is exactly why I'm still skeptical about the other guy. 

Edited October 17, 2023 by phizzy30

[kiwigolf72]

On 10/14/2023 at 4:10 PM, ProV1Killa said:

This is an understatement.  Coming out of college I thought I might have a chance of playing pro level.  My college coach came from a golfing family and his brother had a successful tour career.  One day we were talking and I mentioned that I was ready to go all in and go for it.  Fortunately, we had become good enough friends that he arranged some time on the course for me to play with his brother.  At the time I was officially playing at +6, but not recording all my rounds, legitimately I probably was in the +8 - +9 range.  It didn't take long for me to decide golf was a good lifelong passion, but grad school was the better option for a good life.  At my best I would break a green at 200 yards down to 8ths when picking my target.  The tour player was calling paces at the same distance and then hitting them 7 out of 10 times.  His misses were smaller than what I was calling a target.  

 

On 10/17/2023 at 3:38 AM, phizzy30 said:

I don't know how old you are or if you've played tournaments like the Mid-Am, Western Am, etc but most of those guys don't carry a +6 or better handicap.  What you're saying may very well be true, but if you're just an average Joe standing in the gallery like me, it's really hard to believe someone that claims to a +6 on paper but thinks he was really a +9 at one time. +3 or +4, sure it's crazy good, but +6 or better is god-like.  Not hating, but skeptical.  Hell, I love playing with + cap guys. 

Back in my younger day I played 2 Eisenhower championships for my country, 4-man amateur teams from around the world, the best amateurs the countries represented had. Many who have turned pro and won on multiple tours around the world including majors, there was no one on any team that was on a +8 or +9. 

 

Just saying.

[Phabs]

24 minutes ago, phizzy30 said:

Agree 100%.  My buddy who's a +3 never tells anyone his handicap.  My client shot a 64 the first time I played together and our convo that day was about everything but golf.  + cap guys let their game do the talking.  Your post is exactly why I'm still skeptical about the other guy. 

Right.  I've played with plenty of incredibly good golfers and none of them talk about golf when we play.   Mostly just a bunch of trash talk back and forth and supporting each other when they drain a huge putt or hit a stupid good shot.   

 

I went off as as single last weekend and walked 18 with a guy and his two buddies - one guy said he was a semi-pro on the first tee.  I tied my year low round and beat him pretty badly on top of that he kept my score for some reason.. weirdest thing ever.   

 

Edited October 17, 2023 by Phabs

[phizzy30]

Just now, Phabs said:

Right.  I've played with plenty of incredibly good golfers and none of them talk about golf when we play.   Mostly just a bunch of trash talk back and forth and supporting each other when they drain a huge putt or hit a stupid good shot.   

 

I went off as as single last weekend and walked 18 with a guy and his two buddies - one guy said he was a semi-pro on the first tee.  I tied my year low round and beat him pretty badly on top of that he kept my score for some reason.. wieldiest thing ever.   

 

What's a semi pro for golf?  Developmental tour?  He kept your score?  That's creepy, lol. 

[Phabs]

2 minutes ago, phizzy30 said:

What's a semi pro for golf?  Developmental tour?  He kept your score?  That's creepy, lol. 

That was kinda my question. I didn’t care to ask what it meant as it’s kinda douchy to make that statement on number one tee regardless.   Yeah he kept my score… asked me what I made on every green🤣🤣🤣

[ThinkingPlus]

5 minutes ago, Phabs said:

Right.  I've played with plenty of incredibly good golfers and none of them talk about golf when we play.   Mostly just a bunch of trash talk back and forth and supporting each other when they drain a huge putt or hit a stupid good shot.   

 

I went off as as single last weekend and walked 18 with a guy and his two buddies - one guy said he was a semi-pro on the first tee.  I tied my year low round and beat him pretty badly on top of that he kept my score for some reason.. wieldiest thing ever.   

 

You let context confuse you. He was really a truck driver who held himself in high regard.

[kiwigolf72]

I played with a young guy last weekend who was on +1, he shot 87.

The new WHS allows for players to have 12 throw away cards, this has IMO created HC that are not entirely accurate.

When you get down to low singles or + it's not about how good your good is, it's about how good your bad is.

Edited October 18, 2023 by kiwigolf72
Grammar

[jimb6golf]

I played recently with a couple of friends that were scratch and better.  Although I hit almost every fairway they outdrove me by 50+ yards and sometimes using an iron while I used a driver.  Their iron play was particularly impressive and they scored very well.  As a mid-capper (9 hc) I enjoy playing with very good players as there is always something to learn and simply enjoy the others play. However this time I felt quite small in comparison, a large difference in ability, and further difference in private clubs (harder/ faster) vs public courses set up and rating.

[kiwigolf72]

3 hours ago, jimb6golf said:

I played recently with a couple of friends that were scratch and better.  Although I hit almost every fairway they outdrove me by 50+ yards and sometimes using an iron while I used a driver.  Their iron play was particularly impressive and they scored very well.  As a mid-capper (9 hc) I enjoy playing with very good players as there is always something to learn and simply enjoy the others play. However this time I felt quite small in comparison, a large difference in ability, and further difference in private clubs (harder/ faster) vs public courses set up and rating.

don't be so hard on yourself, I wouldn't call a 9-a mid-capper.

[bm11]

I hired a guy who played college golf, and then some pro events after- he didn't have a handicap when we played as he had a certain amount of years exempt from amateur status, but the last posted index he had was a -2. The first time we played together, he hooked a 2 iron over the road on his tee shot. Nothing impressive about that, but what was impressive was the recovery- he swapped to driver to hit his #3 off the tee, drove to 25 yards from the pin on the 340 yard hole 1, and chipped in in to save par. He's been an invaluable member of the work scramble team, we've won a number of events off his carrying us, and more often than not he wins the long drive. Generally speaking, when he hasn't won it, it has been because he was so far in front of the marker that the fairway narrowed considerably. 

[unpluggedk]

not even close. friends claim they are a single, and hell no they werent even close.

i hope i become one though haha

[Jgolfer99]

I played with a young guy last weekend who was on +1, he shot 87.

The new WHS allows for players to have 12 throw away cards, this has IMO created HC that are not entirely accurate.

When you get down to low singles or + it's not about how good your good is, it's about how good your bad is.

Edited October 17 by kiwigolf72

 

This is very accurate as I speak from experience.  Once you get to a certain level, hitting fairways and greens is second nature and good scores will follow.  However, what separates the true 2 handicaps and below is what happens when you are struggling and how you can keep your score to a decent margin on an off day.  In other words, a true 2 handicap and below (in my opinion) can be struggling with their swing and or not making putts that day but can still find a way to break 76 and keep it reasonable.  A "fake" 2 handicap or lower will not break 80.

[Nels55]

48 minutes ago, Jgolfer99 said:

I played with a young guy last weekend who was on +1, he shot 87.

The new WHS allows for players to have 12 throw away cards, this has IMO created HC that are not entirely accurate.

When you get down to low singles or + it's not about how good your good is, it's about how good your bad is.

Edited October 17 by kiwigolf72

 

This is very accurate as I speak from experience.  Once you get to a certain level, hitting fairways and greens is second nature and good scores will follow.  However, what separates the true 2 handicaps and below is what happens when you are struggling and how you can keep your score to a decent margin on an off day.  In other words, a true 2 handicap and below (in my opinion) can be struggling with their swing and or not making putts that day but can still find a way to break 76 and keep it reasonable.  A "fake" 2 handicap or lower will not break 80.

 

If you are saying that the 'fake 2 handicap' should have a higher index then the problem is that the fake 2 can still shoot 72 in a tournament with whatever you think would be a non fake handicap and be labeled a sandbagger.  I have seen a plus one shoot in the 80s in a tournament two days in a row and then shoot under par two days in a row a couple of weeks later to win a scratch tournament.  Some golfers are simply a lot more volatile then others.  So, not really fake and the current system is designed to give a player an index based on his or her scoring potential and I think that it works fairly well. 

[kiwigolf72]

4 hours ago, Nels55 said:

 

If you are saying that the 'fake 2 handicap' should have a higher index then the problem is that the fake 2 can still shoot 72 in a tournament with whatever you think would be a non fake handicap and be labeled a sandbagger.  I have seen a plus one shoot in the 80s in a tournament two days in a row and then shoot under par two days in a row a couple of weeks later to win a scratch tournament.  Some golfers are simply a lot more volatile then others.  So, not really fake and the current system is designed to give a player an index based on his or her scoring potential and I think that it works fairly well. 

 I think vollitile is a good word.

Let's face it once you get to low singles you are not winning many net comps.i think my point was more that a lot of what I value, consistency, has disappeared through the changes in the HC system.

 

Edited October 31, 2023 by kiwigolf72
Grammar

[st1800e]

This tangential conversation of fake handicaps and sandbaggers will never end.   

If a +1 shoots 77 he’s a vanity capper , if a 10 shoots a 77 he’s a sandbagger, are we all supposed to shoot exactly the same Score every day to avoid suspiscion?  Then what would be the point? 

 

beating a dead horse.