who has actually played with a legit scratch golfer/pro level player?

[ChristopherMcDonald]

16 hours ago, ZacR88 said:

My regular group consists of myself ( +1 HCP) and two other guys who are Pro, trying to get status on Korn Ferry right now. They didnt get through Q school this year. They both play to something like a +5 or +6 HCP. 

 

That being said, I hit the ball like them, as far, etc. They just know how to score better than me ( your average club scratch guy) and their short game is just much more dialed in. 

 

 

 

 

Curious if you, as a +1, had no commitment other than golf, could get there with them? I’m wondering what “more” you think you’d have to give it to match up or if you think there’s some natural ability at play

[ZacR88]

On 11/19/2022 at 1:39 AM, ChristopherMcDonald said:

Curious if you, as a +1, had no commitment other than golf, could get there with them? I’m wondering what “more” you think you’d have to give it to match up or if you think there’s some natural ability at play

Well for starters I am 34. They are 22-23 years old. 

 

To answer your question based off my own evaluation... Yes. 

 

I don't practice, I just play 2 to 4 times a week. These guys are grinding out rounds  twice a day and  practicing in between rounds while spending their off seasons in Florida while I am drinking beer on the couch all winter long, then I spend a good month getting back into form every spring. A bad day for them is like 1 over par. A bad day for me could be a 76-79 ( Only 1 round in the 80s for me in my last 20). Mentally I get burnt out and cant always focus on scoring well cause life gets in the way. 

 

If I could wake up and focus on golf like I do my day job I have no doubt I could reach that level. I just don't have the time to put the reps in every day. 

 

I would need a coach to work with I think to make this possible as I don't know how to practice in an efficient manner. I show up before a round, hit my wedges, a couple 8 irons and the rip my driver a few times. Most days I don't even warm up prior to a round as I don't have time. I need someone to teach me how to go from having fun playing golf to really managing every aspect of my game. 

 

The thought of doing this kind of ruins golf for me though, I don't want to grind it out anymore. I wanna show up and just play golf with my friends, shoot what I shoot and enjoy the day. 

 

[ChristopherMcDonald]

1 minute ago, ZacR88 said:

Well for starters I am 34. They are 22-23 years old. 

 

To answer your question based off my own evaluation... Yes. 

 

I don't practice, I just play 2 to 4 times a week. These guys are grinding out rounds  twice a day and  practicing in between rounds while spending their off seasons in Florida while I am drinking beer on the couch all winter long, then I spend a good month getting back into form every spring. A bad day for them is like 1 over par. A bad day for me could be a 76-79 ( Only 1 round in the 80s for me in my last 20). Mentally I get burnt out and cant always focus on scoring well cause life gets in the way. 

 

If I could wake up and focus on golf like I do my day job I have no doubt I could reach that level. I just don't have the time to put the reps in every day. 

 

I would need a coach to work with I think to make this possible as I don't know how to practice in an efficient manner. I show up before a round, hit my wedges, a couple 8 irons and the rip my driver a few times. Most days I don't even warm up prior to a round as I don't have time. I need someone to teach me how to go from having fun playing golf to really managing every aspect of my game. 

 

The thought of doing this kind of ruins golf for me though, I don't want to grind it out anymore. I wanna show up and just play golf with my friends, shoot what I shoot and enjoy the day. 

 

Thanks for the thoughtful response. Sounds like you're playing the game for the right reasons and at a pretty high level all things considered. Hope you continue to hit em straight

[BB28403]

On 11/18/2022 at 9:25 AM, ZacR88 said:

My regular group consists of myself ( +1 HCP) and two other guys who are Pro, trying to get status on Korn Ferry right now. They didnt get through Q school this year. They both play to something like a +5 or +6 HCP. 

 

That being said, I hit the ball like them, as far, etc. They just know how to score better than me ( your average club scratch guy) and their short game is just much more dialed in. 

 

 

 

 

Where was the most recent Q school?  I’ve been listening to that book ‘Tales from Q school’ and that era (2005-2007) was to get on the PGA Tour.  I guess your buddies were going for the KF Tour.  I love to follow the stats of all this stuff.  Feel bad for those guys.  ✌️ 

[toddbournes]

Never played with a true pro. I’ve played with a very high level d1 college golfer. Friend of a friend. Went out with us and he had a few beers and shot a casual 68. Sure he his his driver long and irons were always pure but what stuck out most to me was the ease and consistency with which he got up and down. Always missed in the right spot when he missed and putting and chipping game was absolutely immaculate. Off the green chipping or 40+foot putts were almost always to gimme range leading to stress free pars and easy birdies on the par 5s. So I guess for me I’ve played with lots of guys who bomb driver and hit irons flush but it comes down to course management and flawless short game. 

[akronswitness]

On 11/18/2022 at 9:25 AM, ZacR88 said:

My regular group consists of myself ( +1 HCP) and two other guys who are Pro, trying to get status on Korn Ferry right now. They didnt get through Q school this year. They both play to something like a +5 or +6 HCP. 

 

That being said, I hit the ball like them, as far, etc. They just know how to score better than me ( your average club scratch guy) and their short game is just much more dialed in. 

 

 

 

 

 

Correct me if Im wrong here, but short game is the clear difference between a scratch/+1 golfer and a 10+ handicap. Ive played with a scratch golfer before and he beat me (+12 handicap) by 15 strokes simply because he was a absolute machine from 135 yards and in. Situations where I hit it 10 yards off the green from 140 out and have to chip and two putt, he sticks it one putt distance. Constantly putting for birdie/par when Im scrambling around trying to get par/bogey. He would make 1-2 strokes on me every single hole just because of approach shots/chipping/putting being THAT big of a gap between a really good player and your average weekend golfer.

 

I could sit there all day long and out drive him, put balls in the fairway, ect--but as soon as we got to approach shot range, he showed me the difference in a scratch golfer and a 12 handicap real quick

Edited January 10, 2023 by akronswitness

[toddbournes]

9 hours ago, akronswitness said:

 

Correct me if Im wrong here, but short game is the clear difference between a scratch/+1 golfer and a 10+ handicap. Ive played with a scratch golfer before and he beat me (+12 handicap) by 15 strokes simply because he was a absolute machine from 135 yards and in. Situations where I hit it 10 yards off the green from 140 out and have to chip and two putt, he sticks it one putt distance. Constantly putting for birdie/par when Im scrambling around trying to get par/bogey. He would make 1-2 strokes on me every single hole just because of approach shots/chipping/putting being THAT big of a gap between a really good player and your average weekend golfer.

 

I could sit there all day long and out drive him, put balls in the fairway, ect--but as soon as we got to approach shot range, he showed me the difference in a scratch golfer and a 12 handicap real quick

In my experience you are 1000% correct 

[T_Golf_23]

9 hours ago, akronswitness said:

 

Correct me if Im wrong here, but short game is the clear difference between a scratch/+1 golfer and a 10+ handicap. Ive played with a scratch golfer before and he beat me (+12 handicap) by 15 strokes simply because he was a absolute machine from 135 yards and in. Situations where I hit it 10 yards off the green from 140 out and have to chip and two putt, he sticks it one putt distance. Constantly putting for birdie/par when Im scrambling around trying to get par/bogey. He would make 1-2 strokes on me every single hole just because of approach shots/chipping/putting being THAT big of a gap between a really good player and your average weekend golfer.

 

I could sit there all day long and out drive him, put balls in the fairway, ect--but as soon as we got to approach shot range, he showed me the difference in a scratch golfer and a 12 handicap real quick

Yes sir, I Regularly play with my club pro, a former D1 player. I also play with a mini tour guy quite often.. 

 

inside 120-130 yards, these guys are sticking balls inside 10 feet from the pin. Recovery chips if they miss are inside 4 feet. Up and down with a 1 putt. 
 

Outside of 150 yards their greens in regulation, while not always inside 10ft, start to blow the average golfer away. 
 

They play Boeing golf and quite simply their stats at every aspect of the game are better by wide margins. 
 

don’t get me wrong, these guys also hit the ball far….. 
 

But their scoring games are deadly. 

[Mcgeeno]

Plenty of scratch golfers etc I've played with in tournaments over the years. Some are pure power house guys who hit it a mile. Others are short game wizards or consistent and safe. Plenty of ways to get to scratch IMO.

 

One thing did stick out to me this year when I played with a +4 in an event in my city this year (I'm a 2 handicap) and have never received 6 shots on my home course before in a match LOL.

 

He was not much longer than me. Maybe 10 yards or back and forth depending on the hole. He didnt chip and putt it better than me at all. I actually thought this portion of his game would be incredible but we chipped and putted the same around the greens. 

 

Where he was light years better: He hit it more consistently and closer to the hole on approaches. Where I would have the odd close one and a number of long looks at birdie or chips from near the green and maybe 1-2 pure ugly shots, he had a non stop quality look at birdie all day. From 200 yards down to 50 it was night and day. His one miss with an iron I can recall was hitting it over the green into a creek going for a par five in two with a long iron. 

 

Might say more about my game than his but it definitely stuck out to me that day. They hit it really close. 

[DLeightonReid]

Over the years, I have had the fortunate opportunity to play in several Korn Ferry Pro-Am tournaments at Highland Springs Golf Club in Springfield, MO.  It is amazing and thrilling to watch how good these guys are and to think the PGA players are at a higher level of play.  All the professional golfers I have played with have been gracious and friendly.  

[GoTime]

Scratch players are like your average high school varsity baseball team.

 

+5 kinda players, guys who are trying to go pro, are like your premiere D1 baseball team.

 

Theyre playing the same sport and might appear similar to the outsider on quick glance, but they are very, very different. 

[pingfool]

We had a former KFT member join our club last spring coming off an injury. He plays a different game. Playing the tips 6780yd he ho hums around and shoots 67 - and i know we haven’t seen his best.

[TLUBulldogGolf]

On 1/10/2023 at 2:58 PM, akronswitness said:

 

Correct me if Im wrong here, but short game is the clear difference between a scratch/+1 golfer and a 10+ handicap. Ive played with a scratch golfer before and he beat me (+12 handicap) by 15 strokes simply because he was a absolute machine from 135 yards and in. Situations where I hit it 10 yards off the green from 140 out and have to chip and two putt, he sticks it one putt distance. Constantly putting for birdie/par when Im scrambling around trying to get par/bogey. He would make 1-2 strokes on me every single hole just because of approach shots/chipping/putting being THAT big of a gap between a really good player and your average weekend golfer.

 

I could sit there all day long and out drive him, put balls in the fairway, ect--but as soon as we got to approach shot range, he showed me the difference in a scratch golfer and a 12 handicap real quick

Your comment sort of made the point I wanted to make before I read your full comment but it’s ball striking through the bag. And most scratch golfers will driver is much longer and straighter than your typical 10+.

Edited January 17, 2023 by TLUBulldogGolf

[klebs01]

On 1/10/2023 at 2:58 PM, akronswitness said:

 

Correct me if Im wrong here, but short game is the clear difference between a scratch/+1 golfer and a 10+ handicap. Ive played with a scratch golfer before and he beat me (+12 handicap) by 15 strokes simply because he was a absolute machine from 135 yards and in. Situations where I hit it 10 yards off the green from 140 out and have to chip and two putt, he sticks it one putt distance. Constantly putting for birdie/par when Im scrambling around trying to get par/bogey. He would make 1-2 strokes on me every single hole just because of approach shots/chipping/putting being THAT big of a gap between a really good player and your average weekend golfer.

 

I could sit there all day long and out drive him, put balls in the fairway, ect--but as soon as we got to approach shot range, he showed me the difference in a scratch golfer and a 12 handicap real quick

It’s not the short game at all. Most of the difference is in the long game. Driving is extremely important. While a 10hc may be as long (uncommon) they won’t be the same combination of length and consistency. The scratch plus will also rarely get penalties driving. Second, and the real difference is the approach game. Partly built off better driving (fewer recovery shots), but mostly consistent iron play. Proximity and missing in the right spots. Short game is a little better, but shouldn’t be challenged that much and the putting is generally the smallest difference. 

[MtlJeff]

On 1/10/2023 at 3:58 PM, akronswitness said:

 

Correct me if Im wrong here, but short game is the clear difference between a scratch/+1 golfer and a 10+ handicap. Ive played with a scratch golfer before and he beat me (+12 handicap) by 15 strokes simply because he was a absolute machine from 135 yards and in. Situations where I hit it 10 yards off the green from 140 out and have to chip and two putt, he sticks it one putt distance. Constantly putting for birdie/par when Im scrambling around trying to get par/bogey. He would make 1-2 strokes on me every single hole just because of approach shots/chipping/putting being THAT big of a gap between a really good player and your average weekend golfer.

 

I could sit there all day long and out drive him, put balls in the fairway, ect--but as soon as we got to approach shot range, he showed me the difference in a scratch golfer and a 12 handicap real quick

 

A lot of it depends on the course you play, too. One of our 18's is 75/140 rating with a lot of water, tight drives etc. The back 9 has either OB or water on every hole and two of the toughest drives around. It's borderline unplayable from the tips for a 10-15 index because it is so challenging tee to green. 

 

I think indexes are like the Richter scale, it's not proportional. The difference between an 20 and a 10 is probably less than a 5 and a 0. And that is probably less than the difference between a 0 and a +3

 

IMO a scratch or + will be a LOT better than a 10, at basically everything

[Pleasedwith3putts]

You have to throw the mental side into the pot too. You can take a talented, ball-striker and give him all the time in the world to focus on his game and he still won't make it if the mental side is not good enough. A good short game and mental approach goes a long way, it gives you tools to fall back on when under the gun.

[handyquacks17]

19 minutes ago, Pleasedwith3putts said:

You have to throw the mental side into the pot too. You can take a talented, ball-striker and give him all the time in the world to focus on his game and he still won't make it if the mental side is not good enough. A good short game and mental approach goes a long way, it gives you tools to fall back on when under the gun.

absolutely agree here. Have caddied a bunch in state opens, pga monday q's etc. The scratch or plus amateur golfer who qualifies has immense talent. Long, straight, consistent, good short game. But the mental grind it takes to have the confidence to truly go low in competition setting where every stroke is huge is what separates the pros from the higher level am's. 

[Righty to Lefty]

On 8/18/2020 at 10:23 PM, kywldcts1225 said:

About 10 years ago I was playing a lot and pretty well...I didn’t carry an official handicap, but I was around 0 or maybe just into the +.  I played in a club championship with a good D1 college player who would go on to play the Mackenzie Tour, the Latioamerica Tour and a season on the Korn Ferry Tour.  I shot 71-70 (-3) and finished 4th and he shot 66-62 (-16) and won by 8.  I played with him the 2nd day when he shot 62 and he was past me by 50 off the tee all day.  Mid to short irons into par 5s and partial wedges into all the par 4s.  
 

If you ever get the opportunity to play a competitive round with a real player take it.  It puts the game at the professional level into perspective.

The crazy thing is that as he moves up the ranks he is going to play well and get beaten by 8 shots by even better players and that is wild to think about in my opinion. Just when you think your good...you will get smacked in the mouth by an even better player.  

[Scootre]

My last round of golf was last October. We got a day in the mid 70s. I was invited to play a country club I had not played since 2004. Our host was the reigning amateur champ for our local regional golf association. He asked for my index (3.4), and he says you get 9. Never in my life have I been given more than a stroke or 2.

Yep he kicked my a**.. our game actually came down to the last hole for a bunch of bets and I three putted to cost us $10. Lol. 

[SethO]

I played with an LPGA player several years ago when I was affiliated with a different site. She kicked my a**... bad. We played from the same tees and I never had a chance. Her driver was more accurate than my wedges.

 

I have a buddy in Jersey who is a +3 and I get to play with him every couple years. We played BPB from the tips and I got to see a true display of golf. I caddied for him once and seeing him in competition was a really cool learning experience.

 

I have a range buddy who is scratch and we work on our games together. I have learned so much from him. I met him when I shanked 2 chip shots into him while working on my short game. I was super embarrassed and apologized. He looked at me and said, "do you want some help?" Moral of the story: If you see someone who is really good, just shank chip shots into the and you will make a friend.

 

One thing I have noticed is that they all have a way of playing golf that I didn't even know existed until I played with them. They really think their way through a round rather than just grabbing a club and going.

[RoyalMustang]

On 1/18/2023 at 7:25 AM, MtlJeff said:

 

A lot of it depends on the course you play, too. One of our 18's is 75/140 rating with a lot of water, tight drives etc. The back 9 has either OB or water on every hole and two of the toughest drives around. It's borderline unplayable from the tips for a 10-15 index because it is so challenging tee to green. 

 

I think indexes are like the Richter scale, it's not proportional. The difference between an 20 and a 10 is probably less than a 5 and a 0. And that is probably less than the difference between a 0 and a +3

 

IMO a scratch or + will be a LOT better than a 10, at basically everything

 

I think in the overall view, the difference between a 0 and +3 in skill may be the same between a 0 and 3, but the time it takes to get there (diminishing) returns isn't. I think as avid players we appreciate these differences, but the casual observer may see a linear progression. 

 

I started playing in the summer of 2020: got lessons, played a lot. Started keeping an index in the fall of 2020: started at a 24, a year later was at a 9. A year after that I was at a 6, now at 5.  It took me a year to drop 15, and 1.3 years to drop 4 more strokes. Based on this, I would expect to maybe be a 2-3 in mid 2024 if I keep up the same level of attention to the sport. There is no way I could become a plus without putting in more time than I already do; the people who are effortless plus golfers probably put in their 10,000 hours along the way somewhere. I can see the path from 5 to 2: for me, it is to become more consistent with my putting and avoiding the bad mistake. Yesterday, I double bogeyed because I hit my 7-iron 165 instead of 175 and was also 12 yards left of target. I was buried in a deep bunker, had to take an awkward shot to get out, which left me with a 45 footer, which I then 3 putted. Avoiding really disastrous swings is key but easier said than done.  An approach from 175 onto a small green surrounded by bunkers is no gimmie, even for a good player. 

 

The time required to improve is likely exponential: the difference between the pros and everyone else is that their talent meant that in the early years, the time required wasn't growing significantly, and the rate of time required for growth is still lower today (again, talent). They may have been close to scratch before putting in big hours (just like anyone with natural talent or aptitude in any activity really). 

[RoyalMustang]

On 1/17/2023 at 9:16 AM, klebs01 said:

It’s not the short game at all. Most of the difference is in the long game. Driving is extremely important. While a 10hc may be as long (uncommon) they won’t be the same combination of length and consistency. The scratch plus will also rarely get penalties driving. Second, and the real difference is the approach game. Partly built off better driving (fewer recovery shots), but mostly consistent iron play. Proximity and missing in the right spots. Short game is a little better, but shouldn’t be challenged that much and the putting is generally the smallest difference. 

 

I wish that were the case at my club. With a 30-yard fairway max width and trees lining fairways on most every hole, being long means you must be perfect. Otherwise you are punching out, which is why some people don't pull out their driver more than 3 or 4x a round. I agree though; on a more well rounded course, having a pitching wedge in from rough beats a 7-iron from the fairway. Just not where I play, which is why it is popular with old guys and nobody else. 

[SurfDuffer]

Since last July I can say I played with a pro every time I play with my son.  Can now say I've played with a pro at Bethpage Black.  I even beat the pro about half the time. 🤪

[klebs01]

4 hours ago, RoyalMustang said:

 

I wish that were the case at my club. With a 30-yard fairway max width and trees lining fairways on most every hole, being long means you must be perfect. Otherwise you are punching out, which is why some people don't pull out their driver more than 3 or 4x a round. I agree though; on a more well rounded course, having a pitching wedge in from rough beats a 7-iron from the fairway. Just not where I play, which is why it is popular with old guys and nobody else. 

may the end of the day it’s still easier if to go 4i then 9i than 4i then 5i. Any way you look at it the longer players still have the advantage. 

[ssp]

On 1/18/2023 at 9:30 AM, Scootre said:

My last round of golf was last October. We got a day in the mid 70s. I was invited to play a country club I had not played since 2004. Our host was the reigning amateur champ for our local regional golf association. He asked for my index (3.4), and he says you get 9. Never in my life have I been given more than a stroke or 2.

Yep he kicked my a**.. our game actually came down to the last hole for a bunch of bets and I three putted to cost us $10. Lol. 

Very similar story.  Moved and joined a new club.  Pro said this was the group to play with - I was a 4.  We toss balls for pairings.  One guy goes - you get 8 shots.  I have never heard of this before.  I am thinking to myself ... hope we are playing for houses.  He shoots 71 and I shoot 79.  This club had 280 members and 65 single digit hcps.  In 7 years I went from 4 to +3.... mainly due to the competition and a high quality golf course that required more thinking and better execution.

[geesecougar2]

When I lived on the west coast I played with a bunch of sticks with plus handicaps, mostly just serious bombers. 

 

But the most impressive is when I played with a former coworker who was a D1 player and was on the same high school team as Jordan Spieth. Wear pattern the size of a nickel on his 5-year old driver, dead center. Was amazing the confidence that oozed out of his game, everything was just easy and simple, and the rare times he hit a bad shot he stepped up and hit a great recovery. Everything was pin high always. We hit it about the same distance but he did it with way less effort. Hardly ever plays anymore but would always shoot around 70. Would always chide me when I blew "the easiest up and down in the world"; shows how it's a totally different mental mindset that if you want to be good, you need to think of those as just layups.  

 

This is a guy with no chance of ever sniffing the pro game, just worked a white collar job like me. Probably around scratch at the time and at best was a +3 or thereabouts. Amazing to think how much better the pros are.

Edited January 20, 2023 by geesecougar2

[akronswitness]

On 1/18/2023 at 8:25 AM, MtlJeff said:

 

A lot of it depends on the course you play, too. One of our 18's is 75/140 rating with a lot of water, tight drives etc. The back 9 has either OB or water on every hole and two of the toughest drives around. It's borderline unplayable from the tips for a 10-15 index because it is so challenging tee to green. 

 

I think indexes are like the Richter scale, it's not proportional. The difference between an 20 and a 10 is probably less than a 5 and a 0. And that is probably less than the difference between a 0 and a +3

 

IMO a scratch or + will be a LOT better than a 10, at basically everything

 

Consistency. All about the consistency. Just because I can stick the ball 1 putt distance from 135 yards doesnt mean I do it a lot, but scratch golfers do.Same with drives, just because I can hit 285 and get 5 FIRs doesn't mean anything when the scratch golfer does it 10x.

 

However, the only reason I don't view driving with that same weight as 150-in is because I was told at a young age that the 2nd shot is the most important in golf. If you hit a great 2nd shot, you can makeup for a bad 1st shot and save Par--also if you hit a great 2nd shot after a good drive, you can put yourself in position to get birdies. Basically your score for every hole is most dictated by the 2nd shot you take-- (for most amateurs).

 

Scratch golfers are light-years more consistent with their iron play than 10+ handicaps to take advantage of that

Edited January 21, 2023 by akronswitness

[Triple Lindy]

I had a rep on my sales team that had been on the PGA tour. We played Orange County National, which was his Q school. He wasn’t crazy long, but was very consistent. Putting was phenomenal. Never saw him 3 putt. 2nd putts were almost all tap-ins. He made 2 25 footers - both for eagle.

[Denny100]

i played a charity day with the THEN DP World (European) Tour player and now Champions Tour player Paul Broadhurst. This was about 15 years ago.

 

Paul has had a superb career playing Ryder Cup, 6 wins on DP World and must be at least 6 on Champions Tour including two majors.

 

He wasnt long long, but long enough. Could comfortably hit 290 balls which at the time was average hitting.

 

Around the green he was absolutely stellar. Chipping constantly to inside 4 feet no matter where he was, putting too, every putt looked like it could go in, and either did or grazed the edge.

 

Also had an instinctive ability to flight the ball down at times especially with the shorter irons which was very impressive.

 

He made 6 or 7 birdies in a row that day and just generally looked very impressive.

[jeff1727]

My first ever round with my father-in-law was at Maderas in SoCal in 2002.  We got paired up with 2 guys in their late 20’s and one of them was the purest ball striker I have ever seen.  He was built a lot like Rory Mcilroy and he could absolutely bomb it.  I It was  his first time playing the course and he shot a 64. I shot an 80 (one tee box ahead) which was a really good score for me at the the time  He didn’t talk much at all but his friend was very talkative and a pretty good player himself.  His buddy told us that this kid came from a lot of money and would play in money games against pga pros that lived in the SoCal area.  
 

I’ve haven’t played with anyone in the last 15 years that had as much control over their golf ball as this guy.