My Experience Gaming Blades as a Mid-High Handicapper

BiggErn · August 20, 2019

> @revanant said:

> > @BiggErn said:

> > > @revanant said:

> > > > @duffer987 said:

> > > > > @revanant said:

> > > > > But it's the sort of improvement that's maybe only worth 1 to 3 strokes, I'd think. Mainly because my current iron play looks a lot like what I see on Sundays on TV--hitting the green with a 15 to 20 foot putt for birdie, or maybe needing a good up and down. The major difference is that I'll regularly turn that birdie putt into a 3 putt bogie, and I probably won't chip it close enough to save par. Of course, the pros get to the green with fewer strokes from much farther away. But when it comes to being on or around the green, we're playing a similar game. I'm just playing it a lot worse. : D

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > :D

> > > > The recreational golfer who is an ace ballstriker at near tour level, but is held back by EVERYTHING else, is my favorite kind of delusional golfer.

> > > >

> > > My point was more that tour-level pros don't put every ball on the pin, not that I'm amazing. : )

> > >

> > > The best ball strikers on tour are averaging 30 feet/10 yards on approach.

> > > Average Proximity from Hole: https://www.pgatour.com/stats/stat.331.html

> > >

> > > The stats are better from closer distances, but not a ton. From 50-125 yards out, pros range from between about 15 feet to 25 feet from the hole.

> > > Approach (50 yards to 125 yards): https://www.pgatour.com/stats/stat.340.html

> > >

> > > To me, these are long putts. However, nobody 3-putts. The % of 3 putts per hole range from a low of 1.44% (Wyndham Clark) to, at worst, less than 5% (Cameron Champ).

> > > 3 Putt Avoidance: https://www.pgatour.com/stats/stat.426.html

> > >

> > > Between 15 ft and 25 feet, there are a bunch of players who just never 3-putt. The worst are around 5% of the time.

> > > 3 Putt Avoidance (15-20 ft): https://www.pgatour.com/stats/stat.145.html

> > > 3 Putt Avoidance: (20-25 ft): https://www.pgatour.com/stats/stat.146.html

> > >

> > > I think a lot of us can put the ball within 20-30 feet of the pin with some frequency. But the big difference is that, when I get there, I might not get down in 2.

> > >

> > > In fact, I might not get down in 2 from 10 feet. And the solution can't be to put the ball closer than 15 feet to the hole all the time--because not even pros can meet that standard on average. This is why I'm not worrying about my iron choice any more. My irons are getting me into scoring position. But my putting is blowing up my scorecard.

> >

> > Yes except they hit the ball dead solid every time and shoot under par. Nobody is a world class ball striker and atrocious enough in every other aspect to be a double digit HC.

>

> I’ve only been to one PGA tournament. It was the Northern Trust, two weeks ago. I watched Shane Lowry put a ball into the water with his 3 iron from the tee—he caught it low. I watched a lot of players miss greens, both long and short. When they hit the green, I saw a lot of balls with very long putts.

>

> What was astonishing was how often PGA players hit iron shots that looked like mine (I.e. missing a green or leaving a long putt), but then either put the ball very close with a great chip, or managed an excellent lag putt to save par.

>

> Justin Rose’s birdie on #16 was a real eye-opener for me. I watched him put his tee ball on the 17th tee box, about 50 yards right of the green. His pitch put him 24 feet away from the hole, on a two-tier green.

>

> Put me in the same spot, putting for birdie, and I’m probably going to 3 putt for birdie. Maybe I’ll four putt for a double.

>

> Justin Rose made his birdie putt. You can see hit here—the announcers were laughing about how far off his tee shot was.

> https://www.pgatour.com/video/2019/08/11/justin-rose-jars-24-footer-for-birdie-at-the-northern-trust-.html

>

> Look at the stats. PGA pros aren’t hitting 18/18 greens in regulation and they aren’t hitting iron shots within three feet of the pin, even from within short-iron range. They get into trouble and make a fair amount of mistakes. GIR % for 2019 ranges from 60% to 73%.

>

> But what they do amazingly well, and what comes out when you watch a full round rather than the limited tv highlights, is save par. They hit excellent chips, and simply refuse to 3 putt. Which makes sense when you look at the statistics I posted. A ton of players have a 3-putt rate of 1% or less from within 25 feet.

>

> The statistics don’t lie. If I’m an excellent pga pro with dead solid ball striking, I still have an average putt of 15 to 20 feet when within wedge and short iron distances. And I’m missing a GIR between 30% and 40% of the time.

>

> So, personally, I’m not worried about hitting my irons 5 yards longer or 2 degrees steeper. I want to put my time and effort into making a big dent in my 3-putt rate when within 25 feet.

Lol. You are completely delusional. You can look at all the stats you want but they’re shooting under par and you’re nowhere close and I’m sure it’s not just your putting.

revanant · August 20, 2019

> @agolf1 said:

> > @revanant said:

> > > @duffer987 said:

> > > > @revanant said:

> > > > But it's the sort of improvement that's maybe only worth 1 to 3 strokes, I'd think. Mainly because my current iron play looks a lot like what I see on Sundays on TV--hitting the green with a 15 to 20 foot putt for birdie, or maybe needing a good up and down. The major difference is that I'll regularly turn that birdie putt into a 3 putt bogie, and I probably won't chip it close enough to save par. Of course, the pros get to the green with fewer strokes from much farther away. But when it comes to being on or around the green, we're playing a similar game. I'm just playing it a lot worse. : D

> > > >

> > >

> > > :D

> > > The recreational golfer who is an ace ballstriker at near tour level, but is held back by EVERYTHING else, is my favorite kind of delusional golfer.

> > >

> > My point was more that tour-level pros don't put every ball on the pin, not that I'm amazing. : )

> >

> > The best ball strikers on tour are averaging 30 feet/10 yards on approach.

> > Average Proximity from Hole: https://www.pgatour.com/stats/stat.331.html

> >

> > The stats are better from closer distances, but not a ton. From 50-125 yards out, pros range from between about 15 feet to 25 feet from the hole.

> > Approach (50 yards to 125 yards): https://www.pgatour.com/stats/stat.340.html

> >

> > To me, these are long putts. However, nobody 3-putts. The % of 3 putts per hole range from a low of 1.44% (Wyndham Clark) to, at worst, less than 5% (Cameron Champ).

> > 3 Putt Avoidance: https://www.pgatour.com/stats/stat.426.html

> >

> > Between 15 ft and 25 feet, there are a bunch of players who just never 3-putt. The worst are around 5% of the time.

> > 3 Putt Avoidance (15-20 ft): https://www.pgatour.com/stats/stat.145.html

> > 3 Putt Avoidance: (20-25 ft): https://www.pgatour.com/stats/stat.146.html

> >

> > I think a lot of us can put the ball within 20-30 feet of the pin with some frequency. But the big difference is that, when I get there, I might not get down in 2.

> >

> > In fact, I might not get down in 2 from 10 feet. And the solution can't be to put the ball closer than 15 feet to the hole all the time--because not even pros can meet that standard on average. This is why I'm not worrying about my iron choice any more. My irons are getting me into scoring position. But my putting is blowing up my scorecard.

> I think your logic is partly flawed. The figures you are quoting for the pros include all of their shots? Whereas you seem to be saying conditional on hitting the green, you can be within X feet. Based on your 9 hole recap a while back, it seems like you missed the green four times with a 9 iron or PW. Those situations should be taken into consideration too.

>

> I think Broadie's book said a 90 shooter hits the green 46% of the time from 100-150 vs. 80% of the time for guys on tour (or maybe scratch). Comparing one person's best shots to another group's average shot probably isn't the best way to do things.

The stats on approach shots that I posted are for shots that land within 30 yards of the green. So, a shot could actually be 20 feet short and in a bunker or in the rough.

PGA tour players in 2019 only hit the green in regulation between 60% and 73% in 2019.

GIR: https://www.pgatour.com/stats/stat.103.html

I did miss the green a few times. I had 3 GIR on 9 holes, which is about what I've been averaging this summer. But, to address your point, a few of those missed GIR were still within 20 feet of the hole.> @Golfjack said:

> > @revanant said:

> > > @duffer987 said:

> > > > @revanant said:

> > > > But it's the sort of improvement that's maybe only worth 1 to 3 strokes, I'd think. Mainly because my current iron play looks a lot like what I see on Sundays on TV--hitting the green with a 15 to 20 foot putt for birdie, or maybe needing a good up and down. The major difference is that I'll regularly turn that birdie putt into a 3 putt bogie, and I probably won't chip it close enough to save par. Of course, the pros get to the green with fewer strokes from much farther away. But when it comes to being on or around the green, we're playing a similar game. I'm just playing it a lot worse. : D

> > > >

> > >

> > > :D

> > > The recreational golfer who is an ace ballstriker at near tour level, but is held back by EVERYTHING else, is my favorite kind of delusional golfer.

> > >

> > My point was more that tour-level pros don't put every ball on the pin, not that I'm amazing. : )

> >

> > The best ball strikers on tour are averaging 30 feet/10 yards on approach.

> > Average Proximity from Hole: https://www.pgatour.com/stats/stat.331.html

> >

> > The stats are better from closer distances, but not a ton. From 50-125 yards out, pros range from between about 15 feet to 25 feet from the hole.

> > Approach (50 yards to 125 yards): https://www.pgatour.com/stats/stat.340.html

> >

> > To me, these are long putts. However, nobody 3-putts. The % of 3 putts per hole range from a low of 1.44% (Wyndham Clark) to, at worst, less than 5% (Cameron Champ).

> > 3 Putt Avoidance: https://www.pgatour.com/stats/stat.426.html

> >

> > Between 15 ft and 25 feet, there are a bunch of players who just never 3-putt. The worst are around 5% of the time.

> > 3 Putt Avoidance (15-20 ft): https://www.pgatour.com/stats/stat.145.html

> > 3 Putt Avoidance: (20-25 ft): https://www.pgatour.com/stats/stat.146.html

> >

> > I think a lot of us can put the ball within 20-30 feet of the pin with some frequency. But the big difference is that, when I get there, I might not get down in 2.

> >

> > In fact, I might not get down in 2 from 10 feet. And the solution can't be to put the ball closer than 15 feet to the hole all the time--because not even pros can meet that standard on average. This is why I'm not worrying about my iron choice any more. My irons are getting me into scoring position. But my putting is blowing up my scorecard.

>

> You seriously need to reevaluate your game. You're not a world class ball striker. You are not tour level proximity. Look at their stats. They are about 5% from target. Scratch guys are about 10% I think. That means at 150 yards, even pro's end up on average 7.5 yards from the pin. A mid-high cap is about 30 yards away on average. You count every shot. Every duff, OB, hit in the bush, over the green flyer. Everything. If really all that's holding up is your putting, you should be scoring single digits to low 80s. Unless for some reason you putt with Thor's hammer. It's not that hard to get your putting down, just go practice and improve technique. It really makes a difference how you stand, face angle, tempo, consistencies. Try the iPing App. 3 putt from 10 feet is horrendous.

Honestly, I agree with you. My point is that splitting hairs over MB vs CB is a bit silly. My round from Saturday wasn't my best round ever--it was just what I shot this weekend. I just thought it was interesting because my iron play wasn't the defining feature of my round or the major culprit for my score.

My low score for 9 is 44 strokes. The best 18 I've strung together is 46 on both the front and back. I'm improving, but I'm not elite in any sense of the word. I'm just not finding that having blades in the bag is destroying my rounds--instead, I'm improving and able to focus on other parts of my game. To the extent a player's cb might give me a better descent angle...well, I'll worry about it once I've stopped 3 putting from 10 feet. : )

duffer987 · August 20, 2019

> @revanant said:

> > @duffer987 said:

> > > @revanant said:

> > > But it's the sort of improvement that's maybe only worth 1 to 3 strokes, I'd think. Mainly because my current iron play looks a lot like what I see on Sundays on TV--hitting the green with a 15 to 20 foot putt for birdie, or maybe needing a good up and down. The major difference is that I'll regularly turn that birdie putt into a 3 putt bogie, and I probably won't chip it close enough to save par. Of course, the pros get to the green with fewer strokes from much farther away. But when it comes to being on or around the green, we're playing a similar game. I'm just playing it a lot worse. : D

> > >

> >

> > :D

> > The recreational golfer who is an ace ballstriker at near tour level, but is held back by EVERYTHING else, is my favorite kind of delusional golfer.

> >

> My point was more that tour-level pros don't put every ball on the pin, not that I'm amazing. : )

>

> The best ball strikers on tour are averaging 30 feet/10 yards on approach.

> Average Proximity from Hole: https://www.pgatour.com/stats/stat.331.html

>

> The stats are better from closer distances, but not a ton. From 50-125 yards out, pros range from between about 15 feet to 25 feet from the hole.

> Approach (50 yards to 125 yards): https://www.pgatour.com/stats/stat.340.html

>

> To me, these are long putts. However, nobody 3-putts. The % of 3 putts per hole range from a low of 1.44% (Wyndham Clark) to, at worst, less than 5% (Cameron Champ).

> 3 Putt Avoidance: https://www.pgatour.com/stats/stat.426.html

>

> Between 15 ft and 25 feet, there are a bunch of players who just never 3-putt. The worst are around 5% of the time.

> 3 Putt Avoidance (15-20 ft): https://www.pgatour.com/stats/stat.145.html

> 3 Putt Avoidance: (20-25 ft): https://www.pgatour.com/stats/stat.146.html

>

> I think a lot of us can put the ball within 20-30 feet of the pin with some frequency. But the big difference is that, when I get there, I might not get down in 2.

>

> In fact, I might not get down in 2 from 10 feet. And the solution can't be to put the ball closer than 15 feet to the hole all the time--because not even pros can meet that standard on average. This is why I'm not worrying about my iron choice any more. My irons are getting me into scoring position. But my putting is blowing up my scorecard.

I agree your iron choice doesn't make much difference to your game: because you are a 25 index. As long as you are in the ballpark equipment fit wise, none of it makes a difference, as your entire game has holes in it.

You seem really keen on golf which is really great :-) but talking about hitting your launch windows and launch angles and how this or that club is better for your game, well it simply fits the definition of delusional, it just does. Your numbers from the simulator in a previous post are simply bad, the l-to-r dispersion and distance variances are all over the shop; there are no windows, they are more barn doors.

And trying to find something in PGA stats? For a 25 index? C'mon, recreational golfers are so far removed from PGA pros there is no sense in looking at their numbers.

If you want to actually improve as a golfer, find a coach you like to establish the fundamentals a 25 doesn't have, forget about interweb golf, and just go play and establish a consistent swing that lets you get in the 90s consistently and take it from there. Because regardless of what you think, the swing simply isn't there right now.

craz-e · August 20, 2019

Massive thread and I’m not sure if this point has been brought up but a thinner soled iron can also work wonders for someone with a shallow angle of attack, blade or skinny CB

autronicdsm · August 20, 2019

For me playing with blades allows the ball to stay within 2~3 feet of where it lands. I'm not good enough to put it right by the hole, but with blades at least the ball doesn't roll too much. With GI I would often see the ball land on the green and then bounce or roll off.

Unfortunately I can't make a commitment to one set of clubs so I'm constantly rotating through CB, GI and SGI. None of them give me significantly lower scores lol

Tree Levino · August 20, 2019

> @craz-e said:

> Massive thread and I’m not sure if this point has been brought up but a thinner soled iron can also work wonders for someone with a shallow angle of attack, blade or skinny CB

Absolutely and I am very much included in that. Me and wide soles are not a good match.

> @revanant said:

> > @agolf1 said:

> > > @revanant said:

> > > > @duffer987 said:

> > > > > @revanant said:

> > > > > But it's the sort of improvement that's maybe only worth 1 to 3 strokes, I'd think. Mainly because my current iron play looks a lot like what I see on Sundays on TV--hitting the green with a 15 to 20 foot putt for birdie, or maybe needing a good up and down. The major difference is that I'll regularly turn that birdie putt into a 3 putt bogie, and I probably won't chip it close enough to save par. Of course, the pros get to the green with fewer strokes from much farther away. But when it comes to being on or around the green, we're playing a similar game. I'm just playing it a lot worse. : D

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > :D

> > > > The recreational golfer who is an ace ballstriker at near tour level, but is held back by EVERYTHING else, is my favorite kind of delusional golfer.

> > > >

> > > My point was more that tour-level pros don't put every ball on the pin, not that I'm amazing. : )

> > >

> > > The best ball strikers on tour are averaging 30 feet/10 yards on approach.

> > > Average Proximity from Hole: https://www.pgatour.com/stats/stat.331.html

> > >

> > > The stats are better from closer distances, but not a ton. From 50-125 yards out, pros range from between about 15 feet to 25 feet from the hole.

> > > Approach (50 yards to 125 yards): https://www.pgatour.com/stats/stat.340.html

> > >

> > > To me, these are long putts. However, nobody 3-putts. The % of 3 putts per hole range from a low of 1.44% (Wyndham Clark) to, at worst, less than 5% (Cameron Champ).

> > > 3 Putt Avoidance: https://www.pgatour.com/stats/stat.426.html

> > >

> > > Between 15 ft and 25 feet, there are a bunch of players who just never 3-putt. The worst are around 5% of the time.

> > > 3 Putt Avoidance (15-20 ft): https://www.pgatour.com/stats/stat.145.html

> > > 3 Putt Avoidance: (20-25 ft): https://www.pgatour.com/stats/stat.146.html

> > >

> > > I think a lot of us can put the ball within 20-30 feet of the pin with some frequency. But the big difference is that, when I get there, I might not get down in 2.

> > >

> > > In fact, I might not get down in 2 from 10 feet. And the solution can't be to put the ball closer than 15 feet to the hole all the time--because not even pros can meet that standard on average. This is why I'm not worrying about my iron choice any more. My irons are getting me into scoring position. But my putting is blowing up my scorecard.

> > I think your logic is partly flawed. The figures you are quoting for the pros include all of their shots? Whereas you seem to be saying conditional on hitting the green, you can be within X feet. Based on your 9 hole recap a while back, it seems like you missed the green four times with a 9 iron or PW. Those situations should be taken into consideration too.

> >

> > I think Broadie's book said a 90 shooter hits the green 46% of the time from 100-150 vs. 80% of the time for guys on tour (or maybe scratch). Comparing one person's best shots to another group's average shot probably isn't the best way to do things.

>

> The stats on approach shots that I posted are for shots that land within 30 yards of the green. So, a shot could actually be 20 feet short and in a bunker or in the rough.

>

> PGA tour players in 2019 only hit the green in regulation between 60% and 73% in 2019.

> GIR: https://www.pgatour.com/stats/stat.103.html

>

> I did miss the green a few times. I had 3 GIR on 9 holes, which is about what I've been averaging this summer. But, to address your point, a few of those missed GIR were still within 20 feet of the hole.> @Golfjack said:

> > > @revanant said:

> > > > @duffer987 said:

> > > > > @revanant said:

> > > > > But it's the sort of improvement that's maybe only worth 1 to 3 strokes, I'd think. Mainly because my current iron play looks a lot like what I see on Sundays on TV--hitting the green with a 15 to 20 foot putt for birdie, or maybe needing a good up and down. The major difference is that I'll regularly turn that birdie putt into a 3 putt bogie, and I probably won't chip it close enough to save par. Of course, the pros get to the green with fewer strokes from much farther away. But when it comes to being on or around the green, we're playing a similar game. I'm just playing it a lot worse. : D

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > :D

> > > > The recreational golfer who is an ace ballstriker at near tour level, but is held back by EVERYTHING else, is my favorite kind of delusional golfer.

> > > >

> > > My point was more that tour-level pros don't put every ball on the pin, not that I'm amazing. : )

> > >

> > > The best ball strikers on tour are averaging 30 feet/10 yards on approach.

> > > Average Proximity from Hole: https://www.pgatour.com/stats/stat.331.html

> > >

> > > The stats are better from closer distances, but not a ton. From 50-125 yards out, pros range from between about 15 feet to 25 feet from the hole.

> > > Approach (50 yards to 125 yards): https://www.pgatour.com/stats/stat.340.html

> > >

> > > To me, these are long putts. However, nobody 3-putts. The % of 3 putts per hole range from a low of 1.44% (Wyndham Clark) to, at worst, less than 5% (Cameron Champ).

> > > 3 Putt Avoidance: https://www.pgatour.com/stats/stat.426.html

> > >

> > > Between 15 ft and 25 feet, there are a bunch of players who just never 3-putt. The worst are around 5% of the time.

> > > 3 Putt Avoidance (15-20 ft): https://www.pgatour.com/stats/stat.145.html

> > > 3 Putt Avoidance: (20-25 ft): https://www.pgatour.com/stats/stat.146.html

> > >

> > > I think a lot of us can put the ball within 20-30 feet of the pin with some frequency. But the big difference is that, when I get there, I might not get down in 2.

> > >

> > > In fact, I might not get down in 2 from 10 feet. And the solution can't be to put the ball closer than 15 feet to the hole all the time--because not even pros can meet that standard on average. This is why I'm not worrying about my iron choice any more. My irons are getting me into scoring position. But my putting is blowing up my scorecard.

> >

> > You seriously need to reevaluate your game. You're not a world class ball striker. You are not tour level proximity. Look at their stats. They are about 5% from target. Scratch guys are about 10% I think. That means at 150 yards, even pro's end up on average 7.5 yards from the pin. A mid-high cap is about 30 yards away on average. You count every shot. Every duff, OB, hit in the bush, over the green flyer. Everything. If really all that's holding up is your putting, you should be scoring single digits to low 80s. Unless for some reason you putt with Thor's hammer. It's not that hard to get your putting down, just go practice and improve technique. It really makes a difference how you stand, face angle, tempo, consistencies. Try the iPing App. 3 putt from 10 feet is horrendous.

>

> Honestly, I agree with you. My point is that splitting hairs over MB vs CB is a bit silly. My round from Saturday wasn't my best round ever--it was just what I shot this weekend. I just thought it was interesting because my iron play wasn't the defining feature of my round or the major culprit for my score.

>

> My low score for 9 is 44 strokes. The best 18 I've strung together is 46 on both the front and back. I'm improving, but I'm not elite in any sense of the word. I'm just not finding that having blades in the bag is destroying my rounds--instead, I'm improving and able to focus on other parts of my game. To the extent a player's cb might give me a better descent angle...well, I'll worry about it once I've stopped 3 putting from 10 feet. : )

Discounting pro iron play and saying that their score mainly comes from getting up and down/exceptional putting is just wrong. They were playing from 7500 yards last week. Given the distances you said you’re hitting your irons, you must be playing an incredibly short course to be hitting short irons into greens and you’re still missing. Many pros hitting near 75% of greens still which is exceptional. They’re also hitting them and stopping the balls on greens we couldn’t even dream of. Those courses/setups are insanely hard. I played Copperhead leading up to the Valspar from the tips and it was big time. Putting aside your 46 would be more like 66+ on something like what they play. To compare your game whatsoever to a pro is not logical. They are hitting their irons nearly perfectly almost every single time and still not hitting the green every time. And many of them choose forgiveness of a CB. What does that tell you?

revanant · August 20, 2019

I wasn't discounting pro iron play. But, the stats below are relevant--it's literally just average distance from hole, from an approach shot between 50-125 yards and from 125-150. It's helpful for the exact point you raise--it's not looking at how many strokes it took to get to the yardage in question, just how close the ball lands to the hole once a player is at that yardage and taking a shot from that distance. It seems like the exact stat we're all talking about--in trying to judge iron play, how close should we expect to hit our irons?

https://www.pgatour.com/stats/stat.340.html

https://www.pgatour.com/stats/stat.339.html

You can slice the numbers up different ways--there's a ton of good/interesting data on the website.

https://www.pgatour.com/stats/categories.RAPP_INQ.html

My point about GIR wasn't meant to be a reflection of my own game. It was just pointing out that the GIR % for pros isn't quite 80%--it's a bit lower. You don't need to convince me that my GIR from the pro tees would be 0% ; ).

BiggErn · August 20, 2019

> @revanant said:

> I wasn't discounting pro iron play. But, the stats below are relevant--it's literally just average distance from hole, from an approach shot between 50-125 yards and from 125-150. It's helpful for the exact point you raise--it's not looking at how many strokes it took to get to the yardage in question, just how close the ball lands to the hole once a player is at that yardage and taking a shot from that distance. It seems like the exact stat we're all talking about--in trying to judge iron play, how close should we expect to hit our irons?

> https://www.pgatour.com/stats/stat.340.html

> https://www.pgatour.com/stats/stat.339.html

>

> You can slice the numbers up different ways--there's a ton of good/interesting data on the website.

> https://www.pgatour.com/stats/categories.RAPP_INQ.html

>

> My point about GIR wasn't meant to be a reflection of my own game. It was just pointing out that the GIR % for pros isn't quite 80%--it's a bit lower. You don't need to convince me that my GIR from the pro tees would be 0% ; ).

Cherry picking pga your stats to somehow try and validate your own game is beyond absurd and completely irrelevant.

duffer987 · August 20, 2019

> @revanant said:

> I wasn't discounting pro iron play. But, the stats below are relevant--it's literally just average distance from hole, from an approach shot between 50-125 yards and from 125-150. It's helpful for the exact point you raise--it's not looking at how many strokes it took to get to the yardage in question, just how close the ball lands to the hole once a player is at that yardage and taking a shot from that distance. It seems like the exact stat we're all talking about--in trying to judge iron play, how close should we expect to hit our irons?

> https://www.pgatour.com/stats/stat.340.html

> https://www.pgatour.com/stats/stat.339.html

>

> You can slice the numbers up different ways--there's a ton of good/interesting data on the website.

> https://www.pgatour.com/stats/categories.RAPP_INQ.html

>

> My point about GIR wasn't meant to be a reflection of my own game. It was just pointing out that the GIR % for pros isn't quite 80%--it's a bit lower. You don't need to convince me that my GIR from the pro tees would be 0% ; ).

It simply isn't - as was mentioned above. Putting aside that they are pros for a second - and just look at the clubs they use from that distance. The vast majority of those shots will be played with wedges, those 140-150s might get some 9 irons depending on conditions and what they are trying to do.

Wedges are not iron play. And as BD also mentioned above, their greens are not our greens. They come out to your local Podunk GC and if they could be arsed to take it seriously their stats would be much better than what they do on tour.

BTW, have you posted a swing video? If you are hitting a 6 iron MP4 (or whatever it is) 140yds and have brutal dispersion; you have some serious swing problems. If you're going to play interweb golf, at least there you might get some info that helps, instead of a bunch of MB-enablers.

If you just want to talk about launch angles and 'windows' for a swing where both are irrelevant, fair enough and have it :-) ... but if you are serious about golf, eventually always sucking at it will get tiresome.

revanant · August 20, 2019

> @duffer987 said:

> > @revanant said:

> > I wasn't discounting pro iron play. But, the stats below are relevant--it's literally just average distance from hole, from an approach shot between 50-125 yards and from 125-150. It's helpful for the exact point you raise--it's not looking at how many strokes it took to get to the yardage in question, just how close the ball lands to the hole once a player is at that yardage and taking a shot from that distance. It seems like the exact stat we're all talking about--in trying to judge iron play, how close should we expect to hit our irons?

> > https://www.pgatour.com/stats/stat.340.html

> > https://www.pgatour.com/stats/stat.339.html

> >

> > You can slice the numbers up different ways--there's a ton of good/interesting data on the website.

> > https://www.pgatour.com/stats/categories.RAPP_INQ.html

> >

> > My point about GIR wasn't meant to be a reflection of my own game. It was just pointing out that the GIR % for pros isn't quite 80%--it's a bit lower. You don't need to convince me that my GIR from the pro tees would be 0% ; ).

>

> It simply isn't - as was mentioned above. Putting aside that they are pros for a second - and just look at the clubs they use from that distance. The vast majority of those shots will be played with wedges, those 140-150s might get some 9 irons depending on conditions and what they are trying to do.

> Wedges are not iron play. And as BD also mentioned above, their greens are not our greens. They come out to your local Podunk GC and if they could be arsed to take it seriously their stats would be much better than what they do on tour.

>

> BTW, have you posted a swing video? If you are hitting a 6 iron MP4 (or whatever it is) 140yds and have brutal dispersion; you have some serious swing problems. If you're going to play interweb golf, at least there you might get some info that helps, instead of a bunch of MB-enablers.

> If you just want to talk about launch angles and 'windows' for a swing where both are irrelevant, fair enough and have it :-) ... but if you are serious about golf, eventually always sucking at it will get tiresome.

The numbers for proximity don't get better as the distances get longer. At 175-200 yards, distances are from 28 feet to 39 feet from the hole. From 200-225 yards, distances are from 35 to 54 feet from the hole.

https://www.pgatour.com/stats/stat.337.html

https://www.pgatour.com/stats/stat.02358.html

My point is that if I'm on the green in regulation and 10 to 15 feet from the pin, my irons have done their job. If I still make a bogey with a 3 putt, the issue isn't my iron choice.

I'll respectfully decline your offer of free swing advice, though I appreciate the spirit in which it was offered.

BiggErn · August 20, 2019

> @revanant said:

> > @duffer987 said:

> > > @revanant said:

> > > I wasn't discounting pro iron play. But, the stats below are relevant--it's literally just average distance from hole, from an approach shot between 50-125 yards and from 125-150. It's helpful for the exact point you raise--it's not looking at how many strokes it took to get to the yardage in question, just how close the ball lands to the hole once a player is at that yardage and taking a shot from that distance. It seems like the exact stat we're all talking about--in trying to judge iron play, how close should we expect to hit our irons?

> > > https://www.pgatour.com/stats/stat.340.html

> > > https://www.pgatour.com/stats/stat.339.html

> > >

> > > You can slice the numbers up different ways--there's a ton of good/interesting data on the website.

> > > https://www.pgatour.com/stats/categories.RAPP_INQ.html

> > >

> > > My point about GIR wasn't meant to be a reflection of my own game. It was just pointing out that the GIR % for pros isn't quite 80%--it's a bit lower. You don't need to convince me that my GIR from the pro tees would be 0% ; ).

> >

> > It simply isn't - as was mentioned above. Putting aside that they are pros for a second - and just look at the clubs they use from that distance. The vast majority of those shots will be played with wedges, those 140-150s might get some 9 irons depending on conditions and what they are trying to do.

> > Wedges are not iron play. And as BD also mentioned above, their greens are not our greens. They come out to your local Podunk GC and if they could be arsed to take it seriously their stats would be much better than what they do on tour.

> >

> > BTW, have you posted a swing video? If you are hitting a 6 iron MP4 (or whatever it is) 140yds and have brutal dispersion; you have some serious swing problems. If you're going to play interweb golf, at least there you might get some info that helps, instead of a bunch of MB-enablers.

> > If you just want to talk about launch angles and 'windows' for a swing where both are irrelevant, fair enough and have it :-) ... but if you are serious about golf, eventually always sucking at it will get tiresome.

>

> The numbers for proximity don't get better as the distances get longer. At 175-200 yards, distances are from 28 feet to 39 feet from the hole. From 200-225 yards, distances are from 35 to 54 feet from the hole.

> https://www.pgatour.com/stats/stat.337.html

> https://www.pgatour.com/stats/stat.02358.html

>

> My point is that if I'm on the green in regulation and 10 to 15 feet from the pin, my irons have done their job. If I still make a bogey with a 3 putt, the issue isn't my iron choice.

>

> I'll respectfully decline your offer of free swing advice, though I appreciate the spirit in which it was offered.

How many times in a round do you hit an iron 10-15 ft from the pin? I’m guessing not many if any. If you can’t break 90, aren’t hitting pretty much every iron dead solid, then using pga tour stats to try and justify something in your game is absurd. Also if you hit your 6 iron only 140 with crazy dispersion you have way more issues than digging up irrelevant pga tour stats.

revanant · August 20, 2019

> @BiggErn said:

> > @revanant said:

> > > @duffer987 said:

> > > > @revanant said:

> > > > I wasn't discounting pro iron play. But, the stats below are relevant--it's literally just average distance from hole, from an approach shot between 50-125 yards and from 125-150. It's helpful for the exact point you raise--it's not looking at how many strokes it took to get to the yardage in question, just how close the ball lands to the hole once a player is at that yardage and taking a shot from that distance. It seems like the exact stat we're all talking about--in trying to judge iron play, how close should we expect to hit our irons?

> > > > https://www.pgatour.com/stats/stat.340.html

> > > > https://www.pgatour.com/stats/stat.339.html

> > > >

> > > > You can slice the numbers up different ways--there's a ton of good/interesting data on the website.

> > > > https://www.pgatour.com/stats/categories.RAPP_INQ.html

> > > >

> > > > My point about GIR wasn't meant to be a reflection of my own game. It was just pointing out that the GIR % for pros isn't quite 80%--it's a bit lower. You don't need to convince me that my GIR from the pro tees would be 0% ; ).

> > >

> > > It simply isn't - as was mentioned above. Putting aside that they are pros for a second - and just look at the clubs they use from that distance. The vast majority of those shots will be played with wedges, those 140-150s might get some 9 irons depending on conditions and what they are trying to do.

> > > Wedges are not iron play. And as BD also mentioned above, their greens are not our greens. They come out to your local Podunk GC and if they could be arsed to take it seriously their stats would be much better than what they do on tour.

> > >

> > > BTW, have you posted a swing video? If you are hitting a 6 iron MP4 (or whatever it is) 140yds and have brutal dispersion; you have some serious swing problems. If you're going to play interweb golf, at least there you might get some info that helps, instead of a bunch of MB-enablers.

> > > If you just want to talk about launch angles and 'windows' for a swing where both are irrelevant, fair enough and have it :-) ... but if you are serious about golf, eventually always sucking at it will get tiresome.

> >

> > The numbers for proximity don't get better as the distances get longer. At 175-200 yards, distances are from 28 feet to 39 feet from the hole. From 200-225 yards, distances are from 35 to 54 feet from the hole.

> > https://www.pgatour.com/stats/stat.337.html

> > https://www.pgatour.com/stats/stat.02358.html

> >

> > My point is that if I'm on the green in regulation and 10 to 15 feet from the pin, my irons have done their job. If I still make a bogey with a 3 putt, the issue isn't my iron choice.

> >

> > I'll respectfully decline your offer of free swing advice, though I appreciate the spirit in which it was offered.

>

> How many times in a round do you hit an iron 10-15 ft from the pin? I’m guessing not many if any. If you can’t break 90, aren’t hitting pretty much every iron dead solid, then using pga tour stats to try and justify something in your game is absurd. Also if you hit your 6 iron only 140 with crazy dispersion you have way more issues than digging up irrelevant pga tour stats.

>

I'm going to save us some time. I'm going to say "x." You are going to say "that's absurd." This will go on for 2 or 3 pages.

The fact is, we're looking at the same data and seeing wildly different things. I look at the iron picture above, and see four shots that are no more than 17.5 feet away from the center line. The low shot is only 4 yards short of the average carry, and 5 yards short of the total distance.

There's a fifth shot in that set that is 10 yards/30 feet from center, but based on the top right map, has the same lateral distance as the other four. The only outlier is the far left one, which was a long pull--it carried 147, with total distance of 159, and spin of under 5k. Take that one outlier out, and the grouping fits right in with the approach numbers from before--4 shots within about 15 to 20 feet, 5 shots within 30 feet. Spin is fine, and ballspeed and distance is a good match LPGA numbers with a 7 iron. It's also in line with my ballspeed and spin when I hit the p790 7 iron in Modus 105.

https://blog.trackmangolf.com/2017-pga-lpga-tour-avg/

So, as I keep saying, we're talking about a club of difference between this 32 degree 6 iron and a 30 degree 7 iron in my hands--or about half an inch of shaft length. It's a small difference, and goes to the idea that if you want hit longer, just grab the next iron down in your bag and don't worry about the number stamped on the bottom.

The basic difference between how we're reading data that probably can't be bridged is that there are 5 shots on that photo that are within 30 feet of the intended target, and you see results that are crazy awful. I see results that line up with my swing speed and peg close to LPGA numbers, and accuracy that is well within a playable distance from the target.

We're looking at the same photo, and seeing wildly different things, based upon wildly different standards.

On the course, I'm seeing a lot of control and a lot of good results, such that I can focus on other parts of my game like course management, putting/chipping, etc. Hence, I'm just going to keep playing golf and not worry about my iron selection.

Which is basically where I was 3 months ago, only I'm getting better. So hooray for that. : )

duffer987 · August 20, 2019

> @revanant said:

> > @duffer987 said:

> > > @revanant said:

> > > I wasn't discounting pro iron play. But, the stats below are relevant--it's literally just average distance from hole, from an approach shot between 50-125 yards and from 125-150. It's helpful for the exact point you raise--it's not looking at how many strokes it took to get to the yardage in question, just how close the ball lands to the hole once a player is at that yardage and taking a shot from that distance. It seems like the exact stat we're all talking about--in trying to judge iron play, how close should we expect to hit our irons?

> > > https://www.pgatour.com/stats/stat.340.html

> > > https://www.pgatour.com/stats/stat.339.html

> > >

> > > You can slice the numbers up different ways--there's a ton of good/interesting data on the website.

> > > https://www.pgatour.com/stats/categories.RAPP_INQ.html

> > >

> > > My point about GIR wasn't meant to be a reflection of my own game. It was just pointing out that the GIR % for pros isn't quite 80%--it's a bit lower. You don't need to convince me that my GIR from the pro tees would be 0% ; ).

> >

> > It simply isn't - as was mentioned above. Putting aside that they are pros for a second - and just look at the clubs they use from that distance. The vast majority of those shots will be played with wedges, those 140-150s might get some 9 irons depending on conditions and what they are trying to do.

> > Wedges are not iron play. And as BD also mentioned above, their greens are not our greens. They come out to your local Podunk GC and if they could be arsed to take it seriously their stats would be much better than what they do on tour.

> >

> > BTW, have you posted a swing video? If you are hitting a 6 iron MP4 (or whatever it is) 140yds and have brutal dispersion; you have some serious swing problems. If you're going to play interweb golf, at least there you might get some info that helps, instead of a bunch of MB-enablers.

> > If you just want to talk about launch angles and 'windows' for a swing where both are irrelevant, fair enough and have it :-) ... but if you are serious about golf, eventually always sucking at it will get tiresome.

>

> The numbers for proximity don't get better as the distances get longer. At 175-200 yards, distances are from 28 feet to 39 feet from the hole. From 200-225 yards, distances are from 35 to 54 feet from the hole.

> https://www.pgatour.com/stats/stat.337.html

> https://www.pgatour.com/stats/stat.02358.html

>

> My point is that if I'm on the green in regulation and 10 to 15 feet from the pin, my irons have done their job. If I still make a bogey with a 3 putt, the issue isn't my iron choice.

>

> I'll respectfully decline your offer of free swing advice, though I appreciate the spirit in which it was offered.

Oh! No no :-)

I'd never offer up advice on the golf swing, I meant the people that actually know what they are talking about in the instruction forum. Some place you could actually move things along or find an instructor near you.

And with these pro stats... these are averages over all approaches and their results, which is obviously pretty darn fantastic. They are not cherry picking - oh hey that time I stuck one to 15 feet - and we'll forget about all the other shots that come with a dispersion circle so large they need a cricket pitch to coral them ;-)

And speaking of cherry picking, lets see some sim data from 20-25 shots, not 1 or maybe if we're lucky 5. At least here we got double digits for one club: https://forums.golfwrx.com/discussion/comment/19028439#Comment_19028439

Ya anyways enough from me, I'm not trying to be an overly negative-nelly, neither is BE or BD, just trying to inject some reality. Play well and enjoy the remainder of your season.

BiggErn · August 20, 2019

> @duffer987 said:

> > @revanant said:

> > > @duffer987 said:

> > > > @revanant said:

> > > > I wasn't discounting pro iron play. But, the stats below are relevant--it's literally just average distance from hole, from an approach shot between 50-125 yards and from 125-150. It's helpful for the exact point you raise--it's not looking at how many strokes it took to get to the yardage in question, just how close the ball lands to the hole once a player is at that yardage and taking a shot from that distance. It seems like the exact stat we're all talking about--in trying to judge iron play, how close should we expect to hit our irons?

> > > > https://www.pgatour.com/stats/stat.340.html

> > > > https://www.pgatour.com/stats/stat.339.html

> > > >

> > > > You can slice the numbers up different ways--there's a ton of good/interesting data on the website.

> > > > https://www.pgatour.com/stats/categories.RAPP_INQ.html

> > > >

> > > > My point about GIR wasn't meant to be a reflection of my own game. It was just pointing out that the GIR % for pros isn't quite 80%--it's a bit lower. You don't need to convince me that my GIR from the pro tees would be 0% ; ).

> > >

> > > It simply isn't - as was mentioned above. Putting aside that they are pros for a second - and just look at the clubs they use from that distance. The vast majority of those shots will be played with wedges, those 140-150s might get some 9 irons depending on conditions and what they are trying to do.

> > > Wedges are not iron play. And as BD also mentioned above, their greens are not our greens. They come out to your local Podunk GC and if they could be arsed to take it seriously their stats would be much better than what they do on tour.

> > >

> > > BTW, have you posted a swing video? If you are hitting a 6 iron MP4 (or whatever it is) 140yds and have brutal dispersion; you have some serious swing problems. If you're going to play interweb golf, at least there you might get some info that helps, instead of a bunch of MB-enablers.

> > > If you just want to talk about launch angles and 'windows' for a swing where both are irrelevant, fair enough and have it :-) ... but if you are serious about golf, eventually always sucking at it will get tiresome.

> >

> > The numbers for proximity don't get better as the distances get longer. At 175-200 yards, distances are from 28 feet to 39 feet from the hole. From 200-225 yards, distances are from 35 to 54 feet from the hole.

> > https://www.pgatour.com/stats/stat.337.html

> > https://www.pgatour.com/stats/stat.02358.html

> >

> > My point is that if I'm on the green in regulation and 10 to 15 feet from the pin, my irons have done their job. If I still make a bogey with a 3 putt, the issue isn't my iron choice.

> >

> > I'll respectfully decline your offer of free swing advice, though I appreciate the spirit in which it was offered.

>

> Oh! No no :-)

> I'd never offer up advice on the golf swing, I meant the people that actually know what they are talking about in the instruction forum. Some place you could actually move things along or find an instructor near you.

>

> And with these pro stats... these are averages over all approaches and their results, which is obviously pretty darn fantastic. They are not cherry picking - oh hey that time I stuck one to 15 feet - and we'll forget about all the other shots that come with a dispersion circle so large they need a cricket pitch to coral them ;-)

>

> And speaking of cherry picking, lets see some sim data from 20-25 shots, not 1 or maybe if we're lucky 5. At least here we got double digits for one club: https://forums.golfwrx.com/discussion/comment/19028439#Comment_19028439

>

> Ya anyways enough from me, I'm not trying to be an overly negative-nelly, neither is BE or BD, just trying to inject some reality. Play well and enjoy the remainder of your season.

Not only that but tour stats aren’t measured on a simulator. Put the worst guy on tour hitting a 140 yard shot on a simulator and it’s probably around 15ft or better and they won’t have close to 30 yards of dispersion. His arguments are extremely flawed.

duffer987 · August 20, 2019

> @BiggErn said:

> > @duffer987 said:

> > > @revanant said:

> > > > @duffer987 said:

> > > > > @revanant said:

> > > > > I wasn't discounting pro iron play. But, the stats below are relevant--it's literally just average distance from hole, from an approach shot between 50-125 yards and from 125-150. It's helpful for the exact point you raise--it's not looking at how many strokes it took to get to the yardage in question, just how close the ball lands to the hole once a player is at that yardage and taking a shot from that distance. It seems like the exact stat we're all talking about--in trying to judge iron play, how close should we expect to hit our irons?

> > > > > https://www.pgatour.com/stats/stat.340.html

> > > > > https://www.pgatour.com/stats/stat.339.html

> > > > >

> > > > > You can slice the numbers up different ways--there's a ton of good/interesting data on the website.

> > > > > https://www.pgatour.com/stats/categories.RAPP_INQ.html

> > > > >

> > > > > My point about GIR wasn't meant to be a reflection of my own game. It was just pointing out that the GIR % for pros isn't quite 80%--it's a bit lower. You don't need to convince me that my GIR from the pro tees would be 0% ; ).

> > > >

> > > > It simply isn't - as was mentioned above. Putting aside that they are pros for a second - and just look at the clubs they use from that distance. The vast majority of those shots will be played with wedges, those 140-150s might get some 9 irons depending on conditions and what they are trying to do.

> > > > Wedges are not iron play. And as BD also mentioned above, their greens are not our greens. They come out to your local Podunk GC and if they could be arsed to take it seriously their stats would be much better than what they do on tour.

> > > >

> > > > BTW, have you posted a swing video? If you are hitting a 6 iron MP4 (or whatever it is) 140yds and have brutal dispersion; you have some serious swing problems. If you're going to play interweb golf, at least there you might get some info that helps, instead of a bunch of MB-enablers.

> > > > If you just want to talk about launch angles and 'windows' for a swing where both are irrelevant, fair enough and have it :-) ... but if you are serious about golf, eventually always sucking at it will get tiresome.

> > >

> > > The numbers for proximity don't get better as the distances get longer. At 175-200 yards, distances are from 28 feet to 39 feet from the hole. From 200-225 yards, distances are from 35 to 54 feet from the hole.

> > > https://www.pgatour.com/stats/stat.337.html

> > > https://www.pgatour.com/stats/stat.02358.html

> > >

> > > My point is that if I'm on the green in regulation and 10 to 15 feet from the pin, my irons have done their job. If I still make a bogey with a 3 putt, the issue isn't my iron choice.

> > >

> > > I'll respectfully decline your offer of free swing advice, though I appreciate the spirit in which it was offered.

> >

> > Oh! No no :-)

> > I'd never offer up advice on the golf swing, I meant the people that actually know what they are talking about in the instruction forum. Some place you could actually move things along or find an instructor near you.

> >

> > And with these pro stats... these are averages over all approaches and their results, which is obviously pretty darn fantastic. They are not cherry picking - oh hey that time I stuck one to 15 feet - and we'll forget about all the other shots that come with a dispersion circle so large they need a cricket pitch to coral them ;-)

> >

> > And speaking of cherry picking, lets see some sim data from 20-25 shots, not 1 or maybe if we're lucky 5. At least here we got double digits for one club: https://forums.golfwrx.com/discussion/comment/19028439#Comment_19028439

> >

> > Ya anyways enough from me, I'm not trying to be an overly negative-nelly, neither is BE or BD, just trying to inject some reality. Play well and enjoy the remainder of your season.

>

> Not only that but tour stats aren’t measured on a simulator. Put the worst guy on tour hitting a 140 yard shot on a simulator and it’s probably around 15ft or better and they won’t have close to 30 yards of dispersion. His arguments are extremely flawed.

Agreed 100%. That is what I was getting at earlier with my Podunk GC reference, there are just so many ways it's comparing apples to hand grenades.

revanant · August 20, 2019

> @duffer987 said:

> > @revanant said:

> > > @duffer987 said:

> > > > @revanant said:

> > > > I wasn't discounting pro iron play. But, the stats below are relevant--it's literally just average distance from hole, from an approach shot between 50-125 yards and from 125-150. It's helpful for the exact point you raise--it's not looking at how many strokes it took to get to the yardage in question, just how close the ball lands to the hole once a player is at that yardage and taking a shot from that distance. It seems like the exact stat we're all talking about--in trying to judge iron play, how close should we expect to hit our irons?

> > > > https://www.pgatour.com/stats/stat.340.html

> > > > https://www.pgatour.com/stats/stat.339.html

> > > >

> > > > You can slice the numbers up different ways--there's a ton of good/interesting data on the website.

> > > > https://www.pgatour.com/stats/categories.RAPP_INQ.html

> > > >

> > > > My point about GIR wasn't meant to be a reflection of my own game. It was just pointing out that the GIR % for pros isn't quite 80%--it's a bit lower. You don't need to convince me that my GIR from the pro tees would be 0% ; ).

> > >

> > > It simply isn't - as was mentioned above. Putting aside that they are pros for a second - and just look at the clubs they use from that distance. The vast majority of those shots will be played with wedges, those 140-150s might get some 9 irons depending on conditions and what they are trying to do.

> > > Wedges are not iron play. And as BD also mentioned above, their greens are not our greens. They come out to your local Podunk GC and if they could be arsed to take it seriously their stats would be much better than what they do on tour.

> > >

> > > BTW, have you posted a swing video? If you are hitting a 6 iron MP4 (or whatever it is) 140yds and have brutal dispersion; you have some serious swing problems. If you're going to play interweb golf, at least there you might get some info that helps, instead of a bunch of MB-enablers.

> > > If you just want to talk about launch angles and 'windows' for a swing where both are irrelevant, fair enough and have it :-) ... but if you are serious about golf, eventually always sucking at it will get tiresome.

> >

> > The numbers for proximity don't get better as the distances get longer. At 175-200 yards, distances are from 28 feet to 39 feet from the hole. From 200-225 yards, distances are from 35 to 54 feet from the hole.

> > https://www.pgatour.com/stats/stat.337.html

> > https://www.pgatour.com/stats/stat.02358.html

> >

> > My point is that if I'm on the green in regulation and 10 to 15 feet from the pin, my irons have done their job. If I still make a bogey with a 3 putt, the issue isn't my iron choice.

> >

> > I'll respectfully decline your offer of free swing advice, though I appreciate the spirit in which it was offered.

>

> Oh! No no :-)

> I'd never offer up advice on the golf swing, I meant the people that actually know what they are talking about in the instruction forum. Some place you could actually move things along or find an instructor near you.

>

> And with these pro stats... these are averages over all approaches and their results, which is obviously pretty darn fantastic. They are not cherry picking - oh hey that time I stuck one to 15 feet - and we'll forget about all the other shots that come with a dispersion circle so large they need a cricket pitch to coral them ;-)

>

> And speaking of cherry picking, lets see some sim data from 20-25 shots, not 1 or maybe if we're lucky 5. At least here we got double digits for one club: https://forums.golfwrx.com/discussion/comment/19028439#Comment_19028439

>

> Ya anyways enough from me, I'm not trying to be an overly negative-nelly, neither is BE or BD, just trying to inject some reality. Play well and enjoy the remainder of your season.

Thanks. For what it's worth, I put up that sort of bulk sim data back in April. It's on page 24, and then goes on for a bunch of pages, etc. We don't need to rehash it--suffice it to say there was a lot of back and forth, and @BiggErn and I disagreed about the results and interpretation.

The MP-14 photo from above that we're chatting about now will save you about 20 pages of reading. I think 4 shots within 17 feet of the target is good. I think a 6-iron that carries 140 at 32 degrees is very playable--especially given the numbers for an LPGA 7-iron and the difference in loft.

@Biggern disagrees. You might disagree as well. But I think the sources I cite back me up--you have to apply fair standards to the data. LPGA pros play great golf. Slamming a 6 or 7 iron because it only goes 140 yards just doesn't make sense, when my swing speed is on point for that distance. Likewise, considering a miss of 30 feet to be awful doesn't make sense, if PGA tour pros live with that sort of miss on a weekly basis.

I'm not saying I'm a magical and amazing golfer, despite my handicap. I'm saying that if I hit an MP-14 6 iron 140 yards at 75 mph of swing speed, and wind up around 30 feet from my target, I should be able to play good golf with the iron. In other words, a mid-high handicap can play with blades and get objectively good results.

BiggErn · August 20, 2019

> @revanant said:

> > @duffer987 said:

> > > @revanant said:

> > > > @duffer987 said:

> > > > > @revanant said:

> > > > > I wasn't discounting pro iron play. But, the stats below are relevant--it's literally just average distance from hole, from an approach shot between 50-125 yards and from 125-150. It's helpful for the exact point you raise--it's not looking at how many strokes it took to get to the yardage in question, just how close the ball lands to the hole once a player is at that yardage and taking a shot from that distance. It seems like the exact stat we're all talking about--in trying to judge iron play, how close should we expect to hit our irons?

> > > > > https://www.pgatour.com/stats/stat.340.html

> > > > > https://www.pgatour.com/stats/stat.339.html

> > > > >

> > > > > You can slice the numbers up different ways--there's a ton of good/interesting data on the website.

> > > > > https://www.pgatour.com/stats/categories.RAPP_INQ.html

> > > > >

> > > > > My point about GIR wasn't meant to be a reflection of my own game. It was just pointing out that the GIR % for pros isn't quite 80%--it's a bit lower. You don't need to convince me that my GIR from the pro tees would be 0% ; ).

> > > >

> > > > It simply isn't - as was mentioned above. Putting aside that they are pros for a second - and just look at the clubs they use from that distance. The vast majority of those shots will be played with wedges, those 140-150s might get some 9 irons depending on conditions and what they are trying to do.

> > > > Wedges are not iron play. And as BD also mentioned above, their greens are not our greens. They come out to your local Podunk GC and if they could be arsed to take it seriously their stats would be much better than what they do on tour.

> > > >

> > > > BTW, have you posted a swing video? If you are hitting a 6 iron MP4 (or whatever it is) 140yds and have brutal dispersion; you have some serious swing problems. If you're going to play interweb golf, at least there you might get some info that helps, instead of a bunch of MB-enablers.

> > > > If you just want to talk about launch angles and 'windows' for a swing where both are irrelevant, fair enough and have it :-) ... but if you are serious about golf, eventually always sucking at it will get tiresome.

> > >

> > > The numbers for proximity don't get better as the distances get longer. At 175-200 yards, distances are from 28 feet to 39 feet from the hole. From 200-225 yards, distances are from 35 to 54 feet from the hole.

> > > https://www.pgatour.com/stats/stat.337.html

> > > https://www.pgatour.com/stats/stat.02358.html

> > >

> > > My point is that if I'm on the green in regulation and 10 to 15 feet from the pin, my irons have done their job. If I still make a bogey with a 3 putt, the issue isn't my iron choice.

> > >

> > > I'll respectfully decline your offer of free swing advice, though I appreciate the spirit in which it was offered.

> >

> > Oh! No no :-)

> > I'd never offer up advice on the golf swing, I meant the people that actually know what they are talking about in the instruction forum. Some place you could actually move things along or find an instructor near you.

> >

> > And with these pro stats... these are averages over all approaches and their results, which is obviously pretty darn fantastic. They are not cherry picking - oh hey that time I stuck one to 15 feet - and we'll forget about all the other shots that come with a dispersion circle so large they need a cricket pitch to coral them ;-)

> >

> > And speaking of cherry picking, lets see some sim data from 20-25 shots, not 1 or maybe if we're lucky 5. At least here we got double digits for one club: https://forums.golfwrx.com/discussion/comment/19028439#Comment_19028439

> >

> > Ya anyways enough from me, I'm not trying to be an overly negative-nelly, neither is BE or BD, just trying to inject some reality. Play well and enjoy the remainder of your season.

>

> Thanks. For what it's worth, I put up that sort of bulk sim data back in April. It's on page 24, and then goes on for a bunch of pages, etc. We don't need to rehash it--suffice it to say there was a lot of back and forth, and @BiggErn and I disagreed about the results and interpretation.

>

> The MP-14 photo from above that we're chatting about now will save you about 20 pages of reading. I think 4 shots within 17 feet of the target is good. I think a 6-iron that carries 140 at 32 degrees is very playable--especially given the numbers for an LPGA 7-iron and the difference in loft.

>

> @Biggern disagrees. You might disagree as well. But I think the sources I cite back me up--you have to apply fair standards to the data. LPGA pros play great golf. Slamming a 6 or 7 iron because it only goes 140 yards just doesn't make sense, when my swing speed is on point for that distance. Likewise, considering a miss of 30 feet to be awful doesn't make sense, if PGA tour pros live with that sort of miss on a weekly basis.

>

> I'm not saying I'm a magical and amazing golfer, despite my handicap. I'm saying that if I hit an MP-14 6 iron 140 yards at 75 mph of swing speed, and wind up around 30 feet from my target, I should be able to play good golf with the iron. In other words, a mid-high handicap can play with blades and get objectively good results.

Your sources do not back you up. Stats on every tour come from on course conditions with many more variables than hitting straight away into a sim. Pros would probably hit inside a 10 ft circle on an indoor sim, not sure why you can’t grasp how flawed your assessment is.

Titleist_PT23 · August 20, 2019

> @revanant said:

> > @duffer987 said:

> > > @revanant said:

> > > > @duffer987 said:

> > > > > @revanant said:

> > > > > I wasn't discounting pro iron play. But, the stats below are relevant--it's literally just average distance from hole, from an approach shot between 50-125 yards and from 125-150. It's helpful for the exact point you raise--it's not looking at how many strokes it took to get to the yardage in question, just how close the ball lands to the hole once a player is at that yardage and taking a shot from that distance. It seems like the exact stat we're all talking about--in trying to judge iron play, how close should we expect to hit our irons?

> > > > > https://www.pgatour.com/stats/stat.340.html

> > > > > https://www.pgatour.com/stats/stat.339.html

> > > > >

> > > > > You can slice the numbers up different ways--there's a ton of good/interesting data on the website.

> > > > > https://www.pgatour.com/stats/categories.RAPP_INQ.html

> > > > >

> > > > > My point about GIR wasn't meant to be a reflection of my own game. It was just pointing out that the GIR % for pros isn't quite 80%--it's a bit lower. You don't need to convince me that my GIR from the pro tees would be 0% ; ).

> > > >

> > > > It simply isn't - as was mentioned above. Putting aside that they are pros for a second - and just look at the clubs they use from that distance. The vast majority of those shots will be played with wedges, those 140-150s might get some 9 irons depending on conditions and what they are trying to do.

> > > > Wedges are not iron play. And as BD also mentioned above, their greens are not our greens. They come out to your local Podunk GC and if they could be arsed to take it seriously their stats would be much better than what they do on tour.

> > > >

> > > > BTW, have you posted a swing video? If you are hitting a 6 iron MP4 (or whatever it is) 140yds and have brutal dispersion; you have some serious swing problems. If you're going to play interweb golf, at least there you might get some info that helps, instead of a bunch of MB-enablers.

> > > > If you just want to talk about launch angles and 'windows' for a swing where both are irrelevant, fair enough and have it :-) ... but if you are serious about golf, eventually always sucking at it will get tiresome.

> > >

> > > The numbers for proximity don't get better as the distances get longer. At 175-200 yards, distances are from 28 feet to 39 feet from the hole. From 200-225 yards, distances are from 35 to 54 feet from the hole.

> > > https://www.pgatour.com/stats/stat.337.html

> > > https://www.pgatour.com/stats/stat.02358.html

> > >

> > > My point is that if I'm on the green in regulation and 10 to 15 feet from the pin, my irons have done their job. If I still make a bogey with a 3 putt, the issue isn't my iron choice.

> > >

> > > I'll respectfully decline your offer of free swing advice, though I appreciate the spirit in which it was offered.

> >

> > Oh! No no :-)

> > I'd never offer up advice on the golf swing, I meant the people that actually know what they are talking about in the instruction forum. Some place you could actually move things along or find an instructor near you.

> >

> > And with these pro stats... these are averages over all approaches and their results, which is obviously pretty darn fantastic. They are not cherry picking - oh hey that time I stuck one to 15 feet - and we'll forget about all the other shots that come with a dispersion circle so large they need a cricket pitch to coral them ;-)

> >

> > And speaking of cherry picking, lets see some sim data from 20-25 shots, not 1 or maybe if we're lucky 5. At least here we got double digits for one club: https://forums.golfwrx.com/discussion/comment/19028439#Comment_19028439

> >

> > Ya anyways enough from me, I'm not trying to be an overly negative-nelly, neither is BE or BD, just trying to inject some reality. Play well and enjoy the remainder of your season.

>

> Thanks. For what it's worth, I put up that sort of bulk sim data back in April. It's on page 24, and then goes on for a bunch of pages, etc. We don't need to rehash it--suffice it to say there was a lot of back and forth, and @BiggErn and I disagreed about the results and interpretation.

>

> The MP-14 photo from above that we're chatting about now will save you about 20 pages of reading. I think 4 shots within 17 feet of the target is good. I think a 6-iron that carries 140 at 32 degrees is very playable--especially given the numbers for an LPGA 7-iron and the difference in loft.

>

> @Biggern disagrees. You might disagree as well. But I think the sources I cite back me up--you have to apply fair standards to the data. LPGA pros play great golf. Slamming a 6 or 7 iron because it only goes 140 yards just doesn't make sense, when my swing speed is on point for that distance. Likewise, considering a miss of 30 feet to be awful doesn't make sense, if PGA tour pros live with that sort of miss on a weekly basis.

>

> I'm not saying I'm a magical and amazing golfer, despite my handicap. I'm saying that if I hit an MP-14 6 iron 140 yards at 75 mph of swing speed, and wind up around 30 feet from my target, I should be able to play good golf with the iron. In other words, a mid-high handicap can play with blades and get objectively good results.

Here's the thing - no one believes you have roughly tour level proximity on the course from 140 yards hitting about half the GIR that the pros hit and hitting a club that has substantially less loft than the club they hit from that distance. Maybe we are all wrong and you actually do. Or maybe you are selectively remembering data points you want to remember. Who knows. But just ask yourself if it sounds a little odd that it would be true.

If you are truly hitting 3 greens per 9 on average, then I will agree that your iron play is relatively better than the rest of your game, and switching clubs isn't what you immediately need to do to cut 5 shots off your scores. In fact, you should stop replying to this thread and go practice your putting.

Also, not that it matters for this but those LPGA numbers seem very dated. They are basically the same ones they've been posting for years. A lot of players these days are carrying a 7-iron or 8-iron 150 yards (granted there is no loft figure in the chart either) and the driver carry is probably 230 for the median player.

revanant · August 21, 2019

> @BiggErn said:

>

> Your sources do not back you up. Stats on every tour come from on course conditions with many more variables than hitting straight away into a sim. Pros would probably hit inside a 10 ft circle on an indoor sim, not sure why you can’t grasp how flawed your assessment is.

The sim is basically just a driving range with a mat, rather than grass. The yardages are true for what I see on course, as are the shot shapes.

I can't speak to what a PGA tour pro would do on an indoor sim or on a driving range. The only question we're trying to answer is, in the hands of an amateur, are those shots good? Can an amateur play good golf with those results?

Your answer is probably no. But I have no idea what your expectation is for a good result. If a PGA tour pro would achieve all shots in a 10 foot circle, what should the expectation be for an amateur? What do you usually see when you go to the range? Do you think your results are better or worse than average? If you're better than average, how much worse could a player drop and still play good golf? On a course, are you usually within 10 yards of the hole with an approach shot? Are you closer? Farther away? What range do you think an amateur should aspire to? How much worse are the results in the photo?

> @agolf1 said:

> > @revanant said:

> >

> > Thanks. For what it's worth, I put up that sort of bulk sim data back in April. It's on page 24, and then goes on for a bunch of pages, etc. We don't need to rehash it--suffice it to say there was a lot of back and forth, and @BiggErn and I disagreed about the results and interpretation.

> >

> > The MP-14 photo from above that we're chatting about now will save you about 20 pages of reading. I think 4 shots within 17 feet of the target is good. I think a 6-iron that carries 140 at 32 degrees is very playable--especially given the numbers for an LPGA 7-iron and the difference in loft.

> >

> > @Biggern disagrees. You might disagree as well. But I think the sources I cite back me up--you have to apply fair standards to the data. LPGA pros play great golf. Slamming a 6 or 7 iron because it only goes 140 yards just doesn't make sense, when my swing speed is on point for that distance. Likewise, considering a miss of 30 feet to be awful doesn't make sense, if PGA tour pros live with that sort of miss on a weekly basis.

> >

> > I'm not saying I'm a magical and amazing golfer, despite my handicap. I'm saying that if I hit an MP-14 6 iron 140 yards at 75 mph of swing speed, and wind up around 30 feet from my target, I should be able to play good golf with the iron. In other words, a mid-high handicap can play with blades and get objectively good results.

> Here's the thing - no one believes you have roughly tour level proximity on the course from 140 yards hitting about half the GIR that the pros hit and hitting a club that has substantially less loft than the club they hit from that distance. Maybe we are all wrong and you actually do. Or maybe you are selectively remembering data points you want to remember. Who knows. But just ask yourself if it sounds a little odd that it would be true.

>

> If you are truly hitting 3 greens per 9 on average, then I will agree that your iron play is relatively better than the rest of your game, and switching clubs isn't what you immediately need to do to cut 5 shots off your scores. In fact, you should stop replying to this thread and go practice your putting.

>

> Also, not that it matters for this but those LPGA numbers seem very dated. They are basically the same ones they've been posting for years. A lot of players these days are carrying a 7-iron or 8-iron 150 yards (granted there is no loft figure in the chart either) and the driver carry is probably 230 for the median player.

The basic problem that I think this thread has highlighted is that we can all look at the same data and have wildly different conclusions. As crazy as it sounds, we can't manage to agree on something as basic as what a good shot looks like, or what a reasonable expectation of accuracy is from an iron shot from an amateur is--regardless of the type of iron being used. If we can't even define our terms, then we definitely can't gauge if one iron is performing better than another, or if an amateur's results are good or bad.

Here are the options that have come out in the past few pages, as far as I can tell:

1) PGA tour pros hit approach shots between 30 and 40 feet from the pin, whether or not they land on the green. If an amateur can do something in this ballpark with an iron, they should be able to play good golf. This is a good result.

2) PGA tour pros hit approach shots within 30 and 40 feet from the pin. Amateurs should not expect to approach tour level accuracy. Mid-high handicaps should expect to hit a shot within 30 yards of the pin. So something in between 30 feet and 30 yards is a good result.

3) PGA tour pros hit approach shots within 30 and 40 feet from the pin. But the courses they play have much harder conditions and much more difficult greens. Therefore, amateurs should expect to hit much closer and accurate shots than PGA tour pros do. Therefore, shots that land within 30 to 40 feet from a pin aren't good results. Amateurs should not expect to play good golf with these results. Instead, amateurs should look to have much closer proximity to the pin. The number should be _________ . ( @BiggErn or others can supply a number?)

I think the answer is close to #1. Pros might play less receptive greens and more difficult greens and then have to deal with long putting distances from pins. But they still have to putt on those same difficult greens and post good scores. The number of 3-putts on the tour are incredibly low, so it seems to be a consistent theme that lag putting is a crucial skill for scoring well and pros do an astounding job of keeping long putts from turning into extra strokes, so I should start practicing that skill heavily.

Now, maybe I'm wrong, and the answer for how amateurs make good scores is actually #3. In other words, because our amateur greens are more receptive, I should be able to improve my iron play considerably and reliably land my shots much closer than 30 feet to the pin on average, so that I don't have to deal with longer putts.

If you're a single digit handicapper, are you getting there with really close approach shots on a regular basis? From mid-iron distance and in, do you guys normally hit approach shots closer than 30 feet? 20 feet? 10 feet? What's the number we should strive for, and what is a bad number if we're judging irons?

Or are you closer or worse than the PGA numbers on approach, and something else clicked to bring your scores down (good driving, long hitting, good scrambling, good lag putting, etc.)?

As for the point about LPGA numbers, the numbers they were achieving in 2017 were still reflective of good iron shots, right? : ) In other words, if I call my 6 iron a "seven iron, lengthened .5 inches" and hit a shot with 140 carry and mid-6k spin, I've hit a good shot with the right numbers. If I hit that shot with an MB, then I hit it a good shot with an MB. As an objective standard for this discussion, I think the LPGA numbers fit the bill for my swing speed.

In this discussion, we can use all the objective standards we can get. So far, the only ones I can find are the PGA stats and the Trackman ball/swing data.

chisag · August 21, 2019

> @BiggErn said:

> Your sources do not back you up. Stats on every tour come from on course conditions with many more variables than hitting straight away into a sim. Pros would probably hit inside a 10 ft circle on an indoor sim, not sure why you can’t grasp how flawed your assessment is.

... Time to give credit where credit is due. Revanant should be in the Troll Hall Of Fame. Members have been trading arguments with a self admitted 25 that claims MB's has reduced his index to 23. If he switched to a persimmon driver there is a very good chance he could get that 23 down to a 22. :D

erikro · August 21, 2019

> @chisag said:

>

> > @BiggErn said:

> > Your sources do not back you up. Stats on every tour come from on course conditions with many more variables than hitting straight away into a sim. Pros would probably hit inside a 10 ft circle on an indoor sim, not sure why you can’t grasp how flawed your assessment is.

>

> ... Time to give credit where credit is due. Revanant should be in the Troll Hall Of Fame. Members have been trading arguments with a self admitted 25 that claims MB's has reduced his index to 23. If he switched to a persimmon driver there is a very good chance he could get that 23 down to a 22. :D

And hickories would take him to single digits lol

BiggErn · August 21, 2019

> @chisag said:

>

> > @BiggErn said:

> > Your sources do not back you up. Stats on every tour come from on course conditions with many more variables than hitting straight away into a sim. Pros would probably hit inside a 10 ft circle on an indoor sim, not sure why you can’t grasp how flawed your assessment is.

>

> ... Time to give credit where credit is due. Revanant should be in the Troll Hall Of Fame. Members have been trading arguments with a self admitted 25 that claims MB's has reduced his index to 23. If he switched to a persimmon driver there is a very good chance he could get that 23 down to a 22. :D

Lol. It’s hard to tell since there are so many delusional arguments presented by the double digit MB crowd.

revanant · August 21, 2019

> @chisag said:

>

> > @BiggErn said:

> > Your sources do not back you up. Stats on every tour come from on course conditions with many more variables than hitting straight away into a sim. Pros would probably hit inside a 10 ft circle on an indoor sim, not sure why you can’t grasp how flawed your assessment is.

>

> ... Time to give credit where credit is due. Revanant should be in the Troll Hall Of Fame. Members have been trading arguments with a self admitted 25 that claims MB's has reduced his index to 23. If he switched to a persimmon driver there is a very good chance he could get that 23 down to a 22. :D

Look, take the type of irons out of the discussion. When you hit an approach shot, what kind of proximity are you expecting? Is it less than 10 yards to the hole? Less than 5 yards? More than 10 yards?

For a low handicap amateur, what do you think is reasonable? How about a mid-handicap?

It's a genuine question--after an approach shot, do you guys with low handicaps see a lot of long putts that you lag well? Do you have to scramble a bit? Or are you just getting really close to the flag on approach and sinking a lot of short putts?

I did a quick search and turned this article up from two months ago--it basically was looking at an 18 handicapper, and found that his approach shots were between 90 and 150 feet away from the hole (i.e., 30 to 50 yards). But, honestly, there isn't a lot of info out there. It's hard to draw much of anything from one random golfer (which is partly why I think this thread goes in circles).

Link: https://mygolfspy.com/shot-scope-case-study-6-why-am-i-3-putting-so-often/

(It's from website with the golf and the spy.)

Lumberjack627 · August 21, 2019

I wish I can play blades

mahonie · August 21, 2019

> @BiggErn said:

> > @chisag said:

> >

> > > @BiggErn said:

> > > Your sources do not back you up. Stats on every tour come from on course conditions with many more variables than hitting straight away into a sim. Pros would probably hit inside a 10 ft circle on an indoor sim, not sure why you can’t grasp how flawed your assessment is.

> >

> > ... Time to give credit where credit is due. Revanant should be in the Troll Hall Of Fame. Members have been trading arguments with a self admitted 25 that claims MB's has reduced his index to 23. If he switched to a persimmon driver there is a very good chance he could get that 23 down to a 22. :D

>

> Lol. It’s hard to tell since there are so many delusional arguments presented by the double digit MB crowd.

@BiggErn @balls_deep @chisag...does anything more need to be said?

BiggErn · August 21, 2019

> @revanant said:

> > @chisag said:

> >

> > > @BiggErn said:

> > > Your sources do not back you up. Stats on every tour come from on course conditions with many more variables than hitting straight away into a sim. Pros would probably hit inside a 10 ft circle on an indoor sim, not sure why you can’t grasp how flawed your assessment is.

> >

> > ... Time to give credit where credit is due. Revanant should be in the Troll Hall Of Fame. Members have been trading arguments with a self admitted 25 that claims MB's has reduced his index to 23. If he switched to a persimmon driver there is a very good chance he could get that 23 down to a 22. :D

>

> Look, take the type of irons out of the discussion. When you hit an approach shot, what kind of proximity are you expecting? Is it less than 10 yards to the hole? Less than 5 yards? More than 10 yards?

>

> For a low handicap amateur, what do you think is reasonable? How about a mid-handicap?

>

> It's a genuine question--after an approach shot, do you guys with low handicaps see a lot of long putts that you lag well? Do you have to scramble a bit? Or are you just getting really close to the flag on approach and sinking a lot of short putts?

>

> I did a quick search and turned this article up from two months ago--it basically was looking at an 18 handicapper, and found that his approach shots were between 90 and 150 feet away from the hole (i.e., 30 to 50 yards). But, honestly, there isn't a lot of info out there. It's hard to draw much of anything from one random golfer (which is partly why I think this thread goes in circles).

>

> Link: https://****.com/shot-scope-case-study-6-why-am-i-3-putting-so-often/

> (It's from website with the golf and the spy.)

No substance to anything you just posted. From 100 yards a low HC wants a reasonable attempt at birdie. From 200 yards most people just hope to hit the green. You seem to be hung up on irrelevant stats than actually playing decent golf. As for club choice play whatever but there’s zero benefit to playing an MB unless you him them dead solid every time and I’m not convinced you actually know what that is.

Titleist_PT23 · August 21, 2019

> @revanant said:

> > @BiggErn said:

> >

> > Your sources do not back you up. Stats on every tour come from on course conditions with many more variables than hitting straight away into a sim. Pros would probably hit inside a 10 ft circle on an indoor sim, not sure why you can’t grasp how flawed your assessment is.

>

> The sim is basically just a driving range with a mat, rather than grass. The yardages are true for what I see on course, as are the shot shapes.

>

> I can't speak to what a PGA tour pro would do on an indoor sim or on a driving range. The only question we're trying to answer is, in the hands of an amateur, are those shots good? Can an amateur play good golf with those results?

>

> Your answer is probably no. But I have no idea what your expectation is for a good result. If a PGA tour pro would achieve all shots in a 10 foot circle, what should the expectation be for an amateur? What do you usually see when you go to the range? Do you think your results are better or worse than average? If you're better than average, how much worse could a player drop and still play good golf? On a course, are you usually within 10 yards of the hole with an approach shot? Are you closer? Farther away? What range do you think an amateur should aspire to? How much worse are the results in the photo?

>

> > @agolf1 said:

> > > @revanant said:

> > >

> > > Thanks. For what it's worth, I put up that sort of bulk sim data back in April. It's on page 24, and then goes on for a bunch of pages, etc. We don't need to rehash it--suffice it to say there was a lot of back and forth, and @BiggErn and I disagreed about the results and interpretation.

> > >

> > > The MP-14 photo from above that we're chatting about now will save you about 20 pages of reading. I think 4 shots within 17 feet of the target is good. I think a 6-iron that carries 140 at 32 degrees is very playable--especially given the numbers for an LPGA 7-iron and the difference in loft.

> > >

> > > @Biggern disagrees. You might disagree as well. But I think the sources I cite back me up--you have to apply fair standards to the data. LPGA pros play great golf. Slamming a 6 or 7 iron because it only goes 140 yards just doesn't make sense, when my swing speed is on point for that distance. Likewise, considering a miss of 30 feet to be awful doesn't make sense, if PGA tour pros live with that sort of miss on a weekly basis.

> > >

> > > I'm not saying I'm a magical and amazing golfer, despite my handicap. I'm saying that if I hit an MP-14 6 iron 140 yards at 75 mph of swing speed, and wind up around 30 feet from my target, I should be able to play good golf with the iron. In other words, a mid-high handicap can play with blades and get objectively good results.

> > Here's the thing - no one believes you have roughly tour level proximity on the course from 140 yards hitting about half the GIR that the pros hit and hitting a club that has substantially less loft than the club they hit from that distance. Maybe we are all wrong and you actually do. Or maybe you are selectively remembering data points you want to remember. Who knows. But just ask yourself if it sounds a little odd that it would be true.

> >

> > If you are truly hitting 3 greens per 9 on average, then I will agree that your iron play is relatively better than the rest of your game, and switching clubs isn't what you immediately need to do to cut 5 shots off your scores. In fact, you should stop replying to this thread and go practice your putting.

> >

> > Also, not that it matters for this but those LPGA numbers seem very dated. They are basically the same ones they've been posting for years. A lot of players these days are carrying a 7-iron or 8-iron 150 yards (granted there is no loft figure in the chart either) and the driver carry is probably 230 for the median player.

>

> The basic problem that I think this thread has highlighted is that we can all look at the same data and have wildly different conclusions. As crazy as it sounds, we can't manage to agree on something as basic as what a good shot looks like, or what a reasonable expectation of accuracy is from an iron shot from an amateur is--regardless of the type of iron being used. If we can't even define our terms, then we definitely can't gauge if one iron is performing better than another, or if an amateur's results are good or bad.

>

> Here are the options that have come out in the past few pages, as far as I can tell:

> 1) PGA tour pros hit approach shots between 30 and 40 feet from the pin, whether or not they land on the green. If an amateur can do something in this ballpark with an iron, they should be able to play good golf. This is a good result.

> 2) PGA tour pros hit approach shots within 30 and 40 feet from the pin. Amateurs should not expect to approach tour level accuracy. Mid-high handicaps should expect to hit a shot within 30 yards of the pin. So something in between 30 feet and 30 yards is a good result.

> 3) PGA tour pros hit approach shots within 30 and 40 feet from the pin. But the courses they play have much harder conditions and much more difficult greens. Therefore, amateurs should expect to hit much closer and accurate shots than PGA tour pros do. Therefore, shots that land within 30 to 40 feet from a pin aren't good results. Amateurs should not expect to play good golf with these results. Instead, amateurs should look to have much closer proximity to the pin. The number should be _________ . ( @BiggErn or others can supply a number?)

>

> I think the answer is close to #1. Pros might play less receptive greens and more difficult greens and then have to deal with long putting distances from pins. But they still have to putt on those same difficult greens and post good scores. The number of 3-putts on the tour are incredibly low, so it seems to be a consistent theme that lag putting is a crucial skill for scoring well and pros do an astounding job of keeping long putts from turning into extra strokes, so I should start practicing that skill heavily.

>

> Now, maybe I'm wrong, and the answer for how amateurs make good scores is actually #3. In other words, because our amateur greens are more receptive, I should be able to improve my iron play considerably and reliably land my shots much closer than 30 feet to the pin on average, so that I don't have to deal with longer putts.

>

> If you're a single digit handicapper, are you getting there with really close approach shots on a regular basis? From mid-iron distance and in, do you guys normally hit approach shots closer than 30 feet? 20 feet? 10 feet? What's the number we should strive for, and what is a bad number if we're judging irons?

>

> Or are you closer or worse than the PGA numbers on approach, and something else clicked to bring your scores down (good driving, long hitting, good scrambling, good lag putting, etc.)?

>

> As for the point about LPGA numbers, the numbers they were achieving in 2017 were still reflective of good iron shots, right? : ) In other words, if I call my 6 iron a "seven iron, lengthened .5 inches" and hit a shot with 140 carry and mid-6k spin, I've hit a good shot with the right numbers. If I hit that shot with an MB, then I hit it a good shot with an MB. As an objective standard for this discussion, I think the LPGA numbers fit the bill for my swing speed.

>

> In this discussion, we can use all the objective standards we can get. So far, the only ones I can find are the PGA stats and the Trackman ball/swing data.

Go get a copy of Broadie's book, it has the numbers. And in breaking news to some, it shows that hacks end up farther away from the hole than pros from every distance.

I'm just saying that the distances haven't been updated in years on that LPGA chart. You can find basically the same numbers from several years before 2017 even though driving distance keeps going up on that tour.

revanant · August 21, 2019

> @agolf1 said:

> > @revanant said:

> > > @BiggErn said:

> > >

> > > Your sources do not back you up. Stats on every tour come from on course conditions with many more variables than hitting straight away into a sim. Pros would probably hit inside a 10 ft circle on an indoor sim, not sure why you can’t grasp how flawed your assessment is.

> >

> > The sim is basically just a driving range with a mat, rather than grass. The yardages are true for what I see on course, as are the shot shapes.

> >

> > I can't speak to what a PGA tour pro would do on an indoor sim or on a driving range. The only question we're trying to answer is, in the hands of an amateur, are those shots good? Can an amateur play good golf with those results?

> >

> > Your answer is probably no. But I have no idea what your expectation is for a good result. If a PGA tour pro would achieve all shots in a 10 foot circle, what should the expectation be for an amateur? What do you usually see when you go to the range? Do you think your results are better or worse than average? If you're better than average, how much worse could a player drop and still play good golf? On a course, are you usually within 10 yards of the hole with an approach shot? Are you closer? Farther away? What range do you think an amateur should aspire to? How much worse are the results in the photo?

> >

> > > @agolf1 said:

> > > > @revanant said:

> > > >

> > > > Thanks. For what it's worth, I put up that sort of bulk sim data back in April. It's on page 24, and then goes on for a bunch of pages, etc. We don't need to rehash it--suffice it to say there was a lot of back and forth, and @BiggErn and I disagreed about the results and interpretation.

> > > >

> > > > The MP-14 photo from above that we're chatting about now will save you about 20 pages of reading. I think 4 shots within 17 feet of the target is good. I think a 6-iron that carries 140 at 32 degrees is very playable--especially given the numbers for an LPGA 7-iron and the difference in loft.

> > > >

> > > > @Biggern disagrees. You might disagree as well. But I think the sources I cite back me up--you have to apply fair standards to the data. LPGA pros play great golf. Slamming a 6 or 7 iron because it only goes 140 yards just doesn't make sense, when my swing speed is on point for that distance. Likewise, considering a miss of 30 feet to be awful doesn't make sense, if PGA tour pros live with that sort of miss on a weekly basis.

> > > >

> > > > I'm not saying I'm a magical and amazing golfer, despite my handicap. I'm saying that if I hit an MP-14 6 iron 140 yards at 75 mph of swing speed, and wind up around 30 feet from my target, I should be able to play good golf with the iron. In other words, a mid-high handicap can play with blades and get objectively good results.

> > > Here's the thing - no one believes you have roughly tour level proximity on the course from 140 yards hitting about half the GIR that the pros hit and hitting a club that has substantially less loft than the club they hit from that distance. Maybe we are all wrong and you actually do. Or maybe you are selectively remembering data points you want to remember. Who knows. But just ask yourself if it sounds a little odd that it would be true.

> > >

> > > If you are truly hitting 3 greens per 9 on average, then I will agree that your iron play is relatively better than the rest of your game, and switching clubs isn't what you immediately need to do to cut 5 shots off your scores. In fact, you should stop replying to this thread and go practice your putting.

> > >

> > > Also, not that it matters for this but those LPGA numbers seem very dated. They are basically the same ones they've been posting for years. A lot of players these days are carrying a 7-iron or 8-iron 150 yards (granted there is no loft figure in the chart either) and the driver carry is probably 230 for the median player.

> >

> > The basic problem that I think this thread has highlighted is that we can all look at the same data and have wildly different conclusions. As crazy as it sounds, we can't manage to agree on something as basic as what a good shot looks like, or what a reasonable expectation of accuracy is from an iron shot from an amateur is--regardless of the type of iron being used. If we can't even define our terms, then we definitely can't gauge if one iron is performing better than another, or if an amateur's results are good or bad.

> >

> > Here are the options that have come out in the past few pages, as far as I can tell:

> > 1) PGA tour pros hit approach shots between 30 and 40 feet from the pin, whether or not they land on the green. If an amateur can do something in this ballpark with an iron, they should be able to play good golf. This is a good result.

> > 2) PGA tour pros hit approach shots within 30 and 40 feet from the pin. Amateurs should not expect to approach tour level accuracy. Mid-high handicaps should expect to hit a shot within 30 yards of the pin. So something in between 30 feet and 30 yards is a good result.

> > 3) PGA tour pros hit approach shots within 30 and 40 feet from the pin. But the courses they play have much harder conditions and much more difficult greens. Therefore, amateurs should expect to hit much closer and accurate shots than PGA tour pros do. Therefore, shots that land within 30 to 40 feet from a pin aren't good results. Amateurs should not expect to play good golf with these results. Instead, amateurs should look to have much closer proximity to the pin. The number should be _________ . ( @BiggErn or others can supply a number?)

> >

> > I think the answer is close to #1. Pros might play less receptive greens and more difficult greens and then have to deal with long putting distances from pins. But they still have to putt on those same difficult greens and post good scores. The number of 3-putts on the tour are incredibly low, so it seems to be a consistent theme that lag putting is a crucial skill for scoring well and pros do an astounding job of keeping long putts from turning into extra strokes, so I should start practicing that skill heavily.

> >

> > Now, maybe I'm wrong, and the answer for how amateurs make good scores is actually #3. In other words, because our amateur greens are more receptive, I should be able to improve my iron play considerably and reliably land my shots much closer than 30 feet to the pin on average, so that I don't have to deal with longer putts.

> >

> > If you're a single digit handicapper, are you getting there with really close approach shots on a regular basis? From mid-iron distance and in, do you guys normally hit approach shots closer than 30 feet? 20 feet? 10 feet? What's the number we should strive for, and what is a bad number if we're judging irons?

> >

> > Or are you closer or worse than the PGA numbers on approach, and something else clicked to bring your scores down (good driving, long hitting, good scrambling, good lag putting, etc.)?

> >

> > As for the point about LPGA numbers, the numbers they were achieving in 2017 were still reflective of good iron shots, right? : ) In other words, if I call my 6 iron a "seven iron, lengthened .5 inches" and hit a shot with 140 carry and mid-6k spin, I've hit a good shot with the right numbers. If I hit that shot with an MB, then I hit it a good shot with an MB. As an objective standard for this discussion, I think the LPGA numbers fit the bill for my swing speed.

> >

> > In this discussion, we can use all the objective standards we can get. So far, the only ones I can find are the PGA stats and the Trackman ball/swing data.

> Go get a copy of Broadie's book, it has the numbers. And in breaking news to some, it shows that hacks end up farther away from the hole than pros from every distance.

>

> I'm just saying that the distances haven't been updated in years on that LPGA chart. You can find basically the same numbers from several years before 2017 even though driving distance keeps going up on that tour.

Thanks, I’ll check it out—it seems like a book I’ll enjoy.

So, basically, Broadie found that amateurs are worse than the pga averages for pros on approach shots?

That honestly makes a lot more sense than suggesting that amateurs should hit it closer than pga numbers, since our greens are softer or whatever.

On the LPGA stuff, I guess it’s good that the average distance is improving. My point is just that if my numbers look like the LPGA circa 2015, or 2017, or whatever, then I should be able to play good golf from the middle tees at a public course, and can stop worrying about my irons. Which, by and large, is what I’ve done since the spring. I’ve set my bag and I’m having fun playing golf while improving. : )

chippa13 · August 21, 2019

Sure, your numbers match the LPGA. That is absolutely believable.

mahonie · August 21, 2019

> @revanant said:

> > @agolf1 said:

> > > @revanant said:

> > > > @BiggErn said:

> > > >

> > > > Your sources do not back you up. Stats on every tour come from on course conditions with many more variables than hitting straight away into a sim. Pros would probably hit inside a 10 ft circle on an indoor sim, not sure why you can’t grasp how flawed your assessment is.

> > >

> > > The sim is basically just a driving range with a mat, rather than grass. The yardages are true for what I see on course, as are the shot shapes.

> > >

> > > I can't speak to what a PGA tour pro would do on an indoor sim or on a driving range. The only question we're trying to answer is, in the hands of an amateur, are those shots good? Can an amateur play good golf with those results?

> > >

> > > Your answer is probably no. But I have no idea what your expectation is for a good result. If a PGA tour pro would achieve all shots in a 10 foot circle, what should the expectation be for an amateur? What do you usually see when you go to the range? Do you think your results are better or worse than average? If you're better than average, how much worse could a player drop and still play good golf? On a course, are you usually within 10 yards of the hole with an approach shot? Are you closer? Farther away? What range do you think an amateur should aspire to? How much worse are the results in the photo?

> > >

> > > > @agolf1 said:

> > > > > @revanant said:

> > > > >

> > > > > Thanks. For what it's worth, I put up that sort of bulk sim data back in April. It's on page 24, and then goes on for a bunch of pages, etc. We don't need to rehash it--suffice it to say there was a lot of back and forth, and @BiggErn and I disagreed about the results and interpretation.

> > > > >

> > > > > The MP-14 photo from above that we're chatting about now will save you about 20 pages of reading. I think 4 shots within 17 feet of the target is good. I think a 6-iron that carries 140 at 32 degrees is very playable--especially given the numbers for an LPGA 7-iron and the difference in loft.

> > > > >

> > > > > @Biggern disagrees. You might disagree as well. But I think the sources I cite back me up--you have to apply fair standards to the data. LPGA pros play great golf. Slamming a 6 or 7 iron because it only goes 140 yards just doesn't make sense, when my swing speed is on point for that distance. Likewise, considering a miss of 30 feet to be awful doesn't make sense, if PGA tour pros live with that sort of miss on a weekly basis.

> > > > >

> > > > > I'm not saying I'm a magical and amazing golfer, despite my handicap. I'm saying that if I hit an MP-14 6 iron 140 yards at 75 mph of swing speed, and wind up around 30 feet from my target, I should be able to play good golf with the iron. In other words, a mid-high handicap can play with blades and get objectively good results.

> > > > Here's the thing - no one believes you have roughly tour level proximity on the course from 140 yards hitting about half the GIR that the pros hit and hitting a club that has substantially less loft than the club they hit from that distance. Maybe we are all wrong and you actually do. Or maybe you are selectively remembering data points you want to remember. Who knows. But just ask yourself if it sounds a little odd that it would be true.

> > > >

> > > > If you are truly hitting 3 greens per 9 on average, then I will agree that your iron play is relatively better than the rest of your game, and switching clubs isn't what you immediately need to do to cut 5 shots off your scores. In fact, you should stop replying to this thread and go practice your putting.

> > > >

> > > > Also, not that it matters for this but those LPGA numbers seem very dated. They are basically the same ones they've been posting for years. A lot of players these days are carrying a 7-iron or 8-iron 150 yards (granted there is no loft figure in the chart either) and the driver carry is probably 230 for the median player.

> > >

> > > The basic problem that I think this thread has highlighted is that we can all look at the same data and have wildly different conclusions. As crazy as it sounds, we can't manage to agree on something as basic as what a good shot looks like, or what a reasonable expectation of accuracy is from an iron shot from an amateur is--regardless of the type of iron being used. If we can't even define our terms, then we definitely can't gauge if one iron is performing better than another, or if an amateur's results are good or bad.

> > >

> > > Here are the options that have come out in the past few pages, as far as I can tell:

> > > 1) PGA tour pros hit approach shots between 30 and 40 feet from the pin, whether or not they land on the green. If an amateur can do something in this ballpark with an iron, they should be able to play good golf. This is a good result.

> > > 2) PGA tour pros hit approach shots within 30 and 40 feet from the pin. Amateurs should not expect to approach tour level accuracy. Mid-high handicaps should expect to hit a shot within 30 yards of the pin. So something in between 30 feet and 30 yards is a good result.

> > > 3) PGA tour pros hit approach shots within 30 and 40 feet from the pin. But the courses they play have much harder conditions and much more difficult greens. Therefore, amateurs should expect to hit much closer and accurate shots than PGA tour pros do. Therefore, shots that land within 30 to 40 feet from a pin aren't good results. Amateurs should not expect to play good golf with these results. Instead, amateurs should look to have much closer proximity to the pin. The number should be _________ . ( @BiggErn or others can supply a number?)

> > >

> > > I think the answer is close to #1. Pros might play less receptive greens and more difficult greens and then have to deal with long putting distances from pins. But they still have to putt on those same difficult greens and post good scores. The number of 3-putts on the tour are incredibly low, so it seems to be a consistent theme that lag putting is a crucial skill for scoring well and pros do an astounding job of keeping long putts from turning into extra strokes, so I should start practicing that skill heavily.

> > >

> > > Now, maybe I'm wrong, and the answer for how amateurs make good scores is actually #3. In other words, because our amateur greens are more receptive, I should be able to improve my iron play considerably and reliably land my shots much closer than 30 feet to the pin on average, so that I don't have to deal with longer putts.

> > >

> > > If you're a single digit handicapper, are you getting there with really close approach shots on a regular basis? From mid-iron distance and in, do you guys normally hit approach shots closer than 30 feet? 20 feet? 10 feet? What's the number we should strive for, and what is a bad number if we're judging irons?

> > >

> > > Or are you closer or worse than the PGA numbers on approach, and something else clicked to bring your scores down (good driving, long hitting, good scrambling, good lag putting, etc.)?

> > >

> > > As for the point about LPGA numbers, the numbers they were achieving in 2017 were still reflective of good iron shots, right? : ) In other words, if I call my 6 iron a "seven iron, lengthened .5 inches" and hit a shot with 140 carry and mid-6k spin, I've hit a good shot with the right numbers. If I hit that shot with an MB, then I hit it a good shot with an MB. As an objective standard for this discussion, I think the LPGA numbers fit the bill for my swing speed.

> > >

> > > In this discussion, we can use all the objective standards we can get. So far, the only ones I can find are the PGA stats and the Trackman ball/swing data.

> > Go get a copy of Broadie's book, it has the numbers. And in breaking news to some, it shows that hacks end up farther away from the hole than pros from every distance.

> >

> > I'm just saying that the distances haven't been updated in years on that LPGA chart. You can find basically the same numbers from several years before 2017 even though driving distance keeps going up on that tour.

>

> Thanks, I’ll check it out—it seems like a book I’ll enjoy.

>

> So, basically, Broadie found that amateurs are worse than the pga averages for pros on approach shots?

>

> That honestly makes a lot more sense than suggesting that amateurs should hit it closer than pga numbers, since our greens are softer or whatever.

>

> On the LPGA stuff, I guess it’s good that the average distance is improving. My point is just that if my numbers look like the LPGA circa 2015, or 2017, or whatever, then I should be able to play good golf from the middle tees at a public course, and can stop worrying about my irons. Which, by and large, is what I’ve done since the spring. I’ve set my bag and I’m having fun playing golf while improving. : )

>

Be careful looking at Broadie’s stuff when he’s in TaylorMade’s pocket and helping them sell distance...allegedly.

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