My Experience Gaming Blades as a Mid-High Handicapper

[AutomaticTwoDown]

> @revanant said:

> > @duffer987 said:

> >

> > Oh sure, that all makes sense :-)

> > And we're just all humming and hawing about someone's game, when we've never even seen the swing to go with it or played with him.

> >

> > I've just latched onto the putting/short game side of things, as much from a rhetorical POV, as a practical one, as it is so repeatedly identified as the big problem, which seems a bit... IDK... off I guess, based on the only 'real' data we've seen which are those few LM examples.

> >

> > We all have to start somewhere and as I posted many moons ago now, that somewhere maybe shouldn't be on here, especially for such a keen guy that seems to get lost in the weeds easily. Imagine that eagerness channeled by someone IRL that knows how to get golfers to improve?!

>

> Honestly, I appreciate the advice. And obviously, I get my weekly 9 holes in, so nothing here is stopping me from going out and getting on-course experience.

>

> **I think we all agree--forget about the irons, and work on putting and chipping/pitching**

>

> This will probably be the last time I put up photos for a bit, because it usually turns into a circus / dumpster fire and that’s really not my goal. We've established that the irons aren't a big deal.

>

> But I have an honest question about reading my data, mainly because I need to do it a lot when I practice. It would help to know why I'm off-base, if I am.

>

> Looking back at the MP-14 photo of 6 shots, a few folks identified a dispersion of 30+ yards. But, to me, it clearly looks like a single pulled shot and five shots with a good grouping?

>

> I know the sim photos are hard to read, and I suspect a lot of it is because I have the benefit of seeing every shot, and you guys have to fill in the blanks. But, I do have almost all of the photos from MP-14 test set. These were six shots that came after I was warmed up. I’ll describe what I see. If I’m off-base, I really do want to understand why.

>

> I’m only swinging at 75 mph. That’s my swing speed. The only baseline I have for something at that speed is the LPGA trackman chart, below. At the speed, and given the loft of 32 degree on the 6 iron, I'm looking at the 7 iron numbers. 

>

>

> Shot 1 & 2: Here we see the initial two. First shot was the major pull. The shot shape is not in bold, on the far left. It’s reflected partly in the “high” column and partly in the low column— you can see which is which by comparing against the current shot. (I.e., 159 total, 147 carry, 16 launch, 105 ballspeed, ~5k spin).

>

> Current shot is shot number 2. This one was 36 feet left of center, or around 10 yards. Rest of the data for shot 2 is in the current shot column.

>

> The dispersion notes 16 yards. That’s the gap between shot 1 and shot 2. Distance from center would therefore be about 26 yards, since current shot is 10 yards from center.

>

>

> Shot 3: Much better. Everything looks good against the LPGA numebrs except for spin, which I think still is high enough to hold the green as a 6 iron. Zero issues with this shot, given that it's straight. You can also see the dispersion math confirmed—total disperson is 26 yards from center, but we know that 2 shots are within 10 yards of target. For dispersion, the machine is just counting total distance between shots. If I topped a ball, it would count 100+ yards of dispersion, but that's not a realistic reflection of how much dispersion I actually expect when playing.

>

>

> Shot 4 and 5: A little detective work is needed here. Shot 4 is hiding in between the current shot and Shot 3. It’s also down the center. A lot of the numbers are lost in the average, but we can deduce that it has the lowest ballspeed (low of 101 vs current shot of 102 and prior low of 104) and carry (low of 136), but not the lowest spin or launch. All in all, carry of 136 and center shot isn’t a bad mishit vs the average of 140, I think?

>

> Current shot has closer to ideal numbers. A little low on ballspeed and carry, but not by much. Spin is high, shot is 10 feet left of center. So, the tally appears to be 2 more shots well within 10 yards.

>

>

> Shot 6 (original photo from earlier in the thread): Last shot looks close against LPGA numbers. A little bit offline, but only 6 yards wide of center.

>

>

> Not sure if this is helpful — I hope it is. Basically, what I see here is a shot shape that will mostly hit a green and stick , but one where I should aim maybe 8-10 feet right of center. I can’t predict if my shot is going to come out perfectly straight or a little left, but based on this sample, I would look at it and think I should be able to put a good round together with these iron shots. I.e., if I had a revolver, I would happily take five of those six shots, even knowing that the sixth could be a dud.

>

> Likewise, if I was getting these results with my 716 CBs in 7 iron, I would happily put them in the bag. I’m just not getting them yet, hopefully due to lie angle, which I’ll fix in a few weeks.

>

> If distance is a bit low, I think it’ll only improve with training, lessons, and time. If I can grab 10 mph by next summer, that’s a worthy goal and hopefully realistic. The only bottleneck is lessons, which in NYC run about $160 an hour, easily.

>

> Happy to hear thoughts. I’m not trying to start a mess. I suspect some folks will look at the numbers and think they’re bad, or that the dispersion is too wide. But, other than ball speed, I do want to understand what is off here?

>

> it seems like most shots are clustered close and would be within 10 yards of target. This is also just about the best hard evidence I can offer for why I think my iron play is ok, and my short game and putting are the bad actors in my game. So, I'll keep putting on my putt-out and carpet and striving for on-course experience while the weather permits.

 

I think your glove is about five sizes too big. That might be why you’re struggling.

[bodhi555]

I'm just back from a long weekend on the golf course, had 3 rounds in total on a couple of different courses, including a competition on Sunday. I went +4, +7 (the comp) and +5. My GIR was hovering around 45% for the 3 rounds, so 8 greens per round (ish). I decided to cast my mind back over the 3 rounds and have a look where poor iron contact cost me a shot / GIR. I found two examples, and that was it. The rest were all either on the fringe and puttable, or pin high left after turning the club over on the way through.

 

1st - In the comp, got to the 14th which is a 185 yard Par 3 with water around 65 yards in front of the green. I was caught right between a flat out 6 iron and a smooth 5, and still hadn't entirely settled on the right club as I stood up to hit it. Results were as you would expect - a very heavy contact that ended up 20 yards in front of the green. Upon examining the tee, it would appear I managed to hit the ground about 6 inches before the ball. Maybe I have misunderstood how wonderful a CB is, however I distinctly suspect nothing would have got that ball to the green, save a well placed cart path.

 

2nd - Second shot into the 16th, had a bout 80 yards left and decided to hit my 58 degree wedge. Came up out of the shot and thinned it through the back.

 

Not sure if either cost me a shot, as I got up and down both times - but let's suppose they did - are we honestly suggesting I pick what irons I use based on the 1 shot out of 30 I didn't catch out the middle? As if I'm honest I'd rather focus on the other 29, then use my short game to get me out of any trouble a dodgy contact got me into.

[Nessism]

> @Exactice808 said:

> > @BiggErn said:

> >

> > How did you come to that conclusion? If he hits quite a few on the button and a couple here and there toward the toe the CB is gonna be less punishing especially on distance. Yea sure he could do the same with an MB and play a far worse miss but why would he?

>

> Sorry I didnt understand your response "He probably hits a few on the button" Such a vague response. So I had to ask to clarify.

>

> You again validate my point if its pure distance loss, the distance loss would be proportional though right as he admits his misses equal on the toe for CB and MB. Its not the clubs fault.

>

> YES while the distance loss is greater, the recover shot would be again consistent while further back he would still play a consistent longer recovery shot on missed shots? So is it an actual loss to play the MB's because he misses consistently on the toe be it MB or CB or could he actually play them just knowing that he does have a longer recovery shot. (This is conjecture and not reality, but just discussing on a public forum)

 

I said my miss is on the toe. I don't hit all shots consistently off the toe. Toe shots with a blade are way more penal than those off my G410's. It's a night and day difference.

[Nessism]

> @bodhi555 said:

> I'm just back from a long weekend on the golf course, had 3 rounds in total on a couple of different courses, including a competition on Sunday. I went +4, +7 (the comp) and +5. My GIR was hovering around 45% for the 3 rounds, so 8 greens per round (ish). I decided to cast my mind back over the 3 rounds and have a look where poor iron contact cost me a shot / GIR. I found two examples, and that was it. The rest were all either on the fringe and puttable, or pin high left after turning the club over on the way through.

>

> 1st - In the comp, got to the 14th which is a 185 yard Par 3 with water around 65 yards in front of the green. I was caught right between a flat out 6 iron and a smooth 5, and still hadn't entirely settled on the right club as I stood up to hit it. Results were as you would expect - a very heavy contact that ended up 20 yards in front of the green. Upon examining the tee, it would appear I managed to hit the ground about 6 inches before the ball. Maybe I have misunderstood how wonderful a CB is, however I distinctly suspect nothing would have got that ball to the green, save a well placed cart path.

>

> 2nd - Second shot into the 16th, had a bout 80 yards left and decided to hit my 58 degree wedge. Came up out of the shot and thinned it through the back.

>

> Not sure if either cost me a shot, as I got up and down both times - but let's suppose they did - are we honestly suggesting I pick what irons I use based on the 1 shot out of 30 I didn't catch out the middle? As if I'm honest I'd rather focus on the other 29, then use my short game to get me out of any trouble a dodgy contact got me into.

 

On average you were 5.3 strokes over par. You are outside the "midcapper" range this thread is supposedly discussing. Guys shooting mid 70's can play just about any clubs without splitting hairs too much. 45% GIR for three rounds suggests some improvements are possible though. Even a few yards improvement on some of the slight mishits may have led to hitting a few more greens. If your chipping is better than long putting it won't matter, but if it's the other way around it could.

[bodhi555]

> @Nessism said:

> > @bodhi555 said:

> > I'm just back from a long weekend on the golf course, had 3 rounds in total on a couple of different courses, including a competition on Sunday. I went +4, +7 (the comp) and +5. My GIR was hovering around 45% for the 3 rounds, so 8 greens per round (ish). I decided to cast my mind back over the 3 rounds and have a look where poor iron contact cost me a shot / GIR. I found two examples, and that was it. The rest were all either on the fringe and puttable, or pin high left after turning the club over on the way through.

> >

> > 1st - In the comp, got to the 14th which is a 185 yard Par 3 with water around 65 yards in front of the green. I was caught right between a flat out 6 iron and a smooth 5, and still hadn't entirely settled on the right club as I stood up to hit it. Results were as you would expect - a very heavy contact that ended up 20 yards in front of the green. Upon examining the tee, it would appear I managed to hit the ground about 6 inches before the ball. Maybe I have misunderstood how wonderful a CB is, however I distinctly suspect nothing would have got that ball to the green, save a well placed cart path.

> >

> > 2nd - Second shot into the 16th, had a bout 80 yards left and decided to hit my 58 degree wedge. Came up out of the shot and thinned it through the back.

> >

> > Not sure if either cost me a shot, as I got up and down both times - but let's suppose they did - are we honestly suggesting I pick what irons I use based on the 1 shot out of 30 I didn't catch out the middle? As if I'm honest I'd rather focus on the other 29, then use my short game to get me out of any trouble a dodgy contact got me into.

>

> On average you were 5.3 strokes over par. You are outside the "midcapper" range this thread is supposedly discussing. Guys shooting mid 70's can play just about any clubs without splitting hairs too much. 45% GIR for three rounds suggests some improvements are possible though. Even a few yards improvement on some of the slight mishits may have led to hitting a few more greens. If your chipping is better than long putting it won't matter, but if it's the other way around it could.

 

This is very true, however we have other low handicappers sharing their experiences so thought I'd deposit my 2c. Also, I was a mid-capper when I got my first set of blades ;)

[dpb5031]

> @Nessism said:

> > @Exactice808 said:

> > > @BiggErn said:

> > >

> > > How did you come to that conclusion? If he hits quite a few on the button and a couple here and there toward the toe the CB is gonna be less punishing especially on distance. Yea sure he could do the same with an MB and play a far worse miss but why would he?

> >

> > Sorry I didnt understand your response "He probably hits a few on the button" Such a vague response. So I had to ask to clarify.

> >

> > You again validate my point if its pure distance loss, the distance loss would be proportional though right as he admits his misses equal on the toe for CB and MB. Its not the clubs fault.

> >

> > YES while the distance loss is greater, the recover shot would be again consistent while further back he would still play a consistent longer recovery shot on missed shots? So is it an actual loss to play the MB's because he misses consistently on the toe be it MB or CB or could he actually play them just knowing that he does have a longer recovery shot. (This is conjecture and not reality, but just discussing on a public forum)

>

> I said my miss is on the toe. I don't hit all shots consistently off the toe. Toe shots with a blade are way more penal than those off my G410's. It's a night and day difference.

 

No doubt

[dciccoritti]

> @Nessism said:

> I said my miss is on the toe. I don't hit all shots consistently off the toe. Toe shots with a blade are way more penal than those off my G410's. It's a night and day difference.

 

When you say night and day difference, what are we taking? Let's say 6 iron or around the 26 degree loft. I'm genuinely curious.

 

 

[MelloYello]

> @bodhi555 said:

> I'm just back from a long weekend on the golf course, had 3 rounds in total on a couple of different courses, including a competition on Sunday. I went +4, +7 (the comp) and +5. My GIR was hovering around 45% for the 3 rounds, so 8 greens per round (ish). I decided to cast my mind back over the 3 rounds and have a look where poor iron contact cost me a shot / GIR. I found two examples, and that was it. The rest were all either on the fringe and puttable, or pin high left after turning the club over on the way through.

>

> 1st - In the comp, got to the 14th which is a 185 yard Par 3 with water around 65 yards in front of the green. I was caught right between a flat out 6 iron and a smooth 5, and still hadn't entirely settled on the right club as I stood up to hit it. Results were as you would expect - a very heavy contact that ended up 20 yards in front of the green. Upon examining the tee, it would appear I managed to hit the ground about 6 inches before the ball. Maybe I have misunderstood how wonderful a CB is, however I distinctly suspect nothing would have got that ball to the green, save a well placed cart path.

>

> 2nd - Second shot into the 16th, had a bout 80 yards left and decided to hit my 58 degree wedge. Came up out of the shot and thinned it through the back.

>

> Not sure if either cost me a shot, as I got up and down both times - but let's suppose they did - are we honestly suggesting I pick what irons I use based on the 1 shot out of 30 I didn't catch out the middle? As if I'm honest I'd rather focus on the other 29, then use my short game to get me out of any trouble a dodgy contact got me into.

 

Sounds like we're somewhat similar. I'm an 8 handicap at the moment (regressing unfortunately, ugh). This season I'm averaging 57% fairways and 44% GIR playing a course that's got a slope rating of 137 so it's a bit trickier than most. I hit my 8-iron about 155- to 160-yds so I'm a pretty average guy in terms of power.

 

I was using MBs last season but I went to CBs because I think they help my game. I don't think it matters in the short irons but since I prefer my sets to match I went with a complete set of CBs (3-Pw).

 

If you're interested in doing a comparison I wouldn't look at the shot you duffed off the tee. Everyone is going to hit the occasional ugly one. It's those other 29 that are going to really impact your score though, right?

 

You said it yourself. I'm not going to fit myself to one bad shot where club-type really wouldn't have mattered. I'm going to look at what the majority of my shots are doing and what my tendencies are because the choice of club-type is going to have a subtle effect that might mean something over that larger group of shots.

 

I knew my tendencies. My most common miss is off the toe. That's bad news for blades. I will occasionally have bad days where my contact isn't pure. Again, blades will only make those days more un-enjoyable. And I could certainly benefit from a long iron that was friendly and easy-to-launch off the deck. Blades don't really hurt here but again, they aren't helping.

 

What got me to consider CBs and what led me to believe CBs were actually better for me was considering how much of a gap there was between someone like me who's pleased to hit the center of the green versus a top-flight ball-striker who's controlling distances down to the yard.

 

That told me that when I pull out my 8-iron, I'm not looking for the type of club that will give me the ability to separate a 157-yd ball from a 158-yd ball. Instead, I wanted an 8-iron that looked and felt good but generally stabilized my number so that I knew my variation would be reasonably tight regardless of whether or not I was swinging well and hitting my irons perfectly that particular day.

 

Looking at your stats leads me to believe your short game was working pretty well. If I am shooting mid-70s I'm either getting everything up and down or I'm hitting 12-13 GIR.

 

So if you were "only" hitting 45% and yet you were still mid-70s I'd say your long game left some shots out there. I can't say whether it was your driving or your iron play but common sense says a little of both.

 

So pay attention to the little things. First, look at the shots that are more or less pin high but which are landing slightly left and right. A CB might be able to keep you more on-line thanks to the perimeter weighting. You might be hitting it left and right more thanks to the blade. While a lot of players associate being pin-high with good distance control, missing left and right is not something we should ignore.

 

Second, look at the variation in your shots. How precise are you at controlling distances with your irons? Blades are designed for the guy who's really sharp at controlling his numbers and knows the difference between 160 and 162.

 

Just my 2 cents.

 

Again, I think this conversation really just applies to like 4-iron thru 8-iron and it's a slight difference. So it's not something to worry too much about.

 

It's the $275 I spent earlier this year on my Tensei shaft. Is that better? Yeah, I would say it's added some distance. Is that actually leading to better golf? Oh, probably not.

[bodhi555]

> @MelloYello said:

> > @bodhi555 said:

> > I'm just back from a long weekend on the golf course, had 3 rounds in total on a couple of different courses, including a competition on Sunday. I went +4, +7 (the comp) and +5. My GIR was hovering around 45% for the 3 rounds, so 8 greens per round (ish). I decided to cast my mind back over the 3 rounds and have a look where poor iron contact cost me a shot / GIR. I found two examples, and that was it. The rest were all either on the fringe and puttable, or pin high left after turning the club over on the way through.

> >

> > 1st - In the comp, got to the 14th which is a 185 yard Par 3 with water around 65 yards in front of the green. I was caught right between a flat out 6 iron and a smooth 5, and still hadn't entirely settled on the right club as I stood up to hit it. Results were as you would expect - a very heavy contact that ended up 20 yards in front of the green. Upon examining the tee, it would appear I managed to hit the ground about 6 inches before the ball. Maybe I have misunderstood how wonderful a CB is, however I distinctly suspect nothing would have got that ball to the green, save a well placed cart path.

> >

> > 2nd - Second shot into the 16th, had a bout 80 yards left and decided to hit my 58 degree wedge. Came up out of the shot and thinned it through the back.

> >

> > Not sure if either cost me a shot, as I got up and down both times - but let's suppose they did - are we honestly suggesting I pick what irons I use based on the 1 shot out of 30 I didn't catch out the middle? As if I'm honest I'd rather focus on the other 29, then use my short game to get me out of any trouble a dodgy contact got me into.

>

> A little about me. I'm an 8 handicap at the moment. This season I'm averaging 57% fairways and 44% GIR playing a course that's got a slope rating of 137 so it's a bit trickier than most. I hit my 8-iron about 155- to 160-yds so I'm a pretty average guy in terms of power.

>

> I was using MBs last season but I went to CBs because I think they help my game. I don't think it matters in the short irons but since I prefer my sets to match I went with a complete set of CBs (3-Pw).

>

> If you're interested in doing a comparison I wouldn't look at the shot you duffed off the tee. Everyone is going to hit the occasional ugly one. It's those other 29 that are going to really impact your score though, right?

>

> You said it yourself. I'm not going to fit myself to one bad shot where club-type really wouldn't have mattered. I'm going to look at what the majority of my shots are doing and what my tendencies are because the choice of club-type is going to have a subtle effect that might mean something over that larger group of shots.

>

> I knew my tendencies. My most common miss is off the toe. That's bad news for blades. I will occasionally have bad days where my contact isn't pure. Again, blades will only make those days more un-enjoyable. And I could certainly benefit from a long iron that was friendly and easy-to-launch off the deck. Blades don't really hurt here but again, they aren't helping.

>

> What got me to consider CBs and what led me to believe CBs were actually better for me was considering how much of a gap there was between someone like me who's pleased to hit the center of the green versus a top-flight ball-striker who's controlling distances down to the yard.

>

> That told me that when I pull out my 8-iron, I'm not looking for the type of club that will give me the ability to separate a 157-yd ball from a 158-yd ball. Instead, I wanted an 8-iron that looked and felt good but generally stabilized my number so that I knew my variation would be reasonably tight regardless of whether or not I was swinging well and hitting my irons perfectly that particular day.

>

> So pay attention to the little things. First, look at the shots that are more or less pin high but which are landing slightly left and right. A CB might be able to keep you more on-line thanks to the perimeter weighting. You might be hitting it left and right more thanks to the blade. While a lot of players associate being pin-high with good distance control, missing left and right is not something we should ignore.

>

> Second, look at the variation in your shots. How precise are you at controlling distances with your irons? Blades are designed for the guy who's really sharp at controlling his numbers and knows the difference between 160 and 162.

>

> Just my 2 cents.

>

> Again, I think this conversation really just applies to like 4-iron thru 8-iron and it's a slight difference. So it's not something to worry too much about.

>

> It's the $275 I spent earlier this year on my Tensei shaft. Is that better? Yeah, I would say it's added some distance. Is that actually leading to better golf? Oh, probably not.

 

That is an incredibly well justified and reasoned post - you sure you've got the right thread? ;)

 

You have, however, entirely hit the nail on the head - everyone's games are that slight bit different, and the only real person who can determine what sort of irons that golfer will play best with is the golfer themselves, but there are a few rules of thumb we can apply universally.

 

For instance you mentioned that you tend to miss out of the toe, and blades are nothing but pain out there - and I entirely agree with you, they weren't designed for that in the slightest. However I can quite comfortably sit here and say that toe misses aren't something I struggle with with my irons - maybe 1 or 2 a range session, but rarely out on the course. Slightly thin (which I find the VR Pros let you get away with) or more towards the heel (ditto) is my miss, and I don't find my current blades punish me for that.

 

On the long irons, I certainly aren't going to disagree with you there either - I have a VR Pro Combo 4 iron that I bought to tinker with, as the VR Pro 4 iron can look a little intimidating early on in the round - and the Pro Combo does look a bit more inviting - sadly it goes 15 yards shorter than the blade, with no real benefit in accuracy. I may tinker over winter with a shaft upgrade to see what's what. But once I'm warmed up I have no qualms about getting the VR Pro 4 iron out.

 

Accuracy - Recently I've only really played CB's when I've been renting clubs, so only ever have 18 holes at a time to get used to them - however, in my experience they help straighten the ball flight if you hit it off the toe / heel, but are less effective if you hit the centre but close the face (as I do when my right hand grip pressure gets too high).

 

Not sure I'd say I can tell you the difference between a 162 yard swing and a 160, but between 165 and 160? Definitely. One's a solid 7 iron and the other requires choking down the grip an inch :) But if I'm playing my approach shot I will typically laser the flag, then pick whatever club I need to hit that distance taking into account wind, elevation, where the trouble is etc. I could probably boost my GIR percentage if I aimed at the centre of a few greens rather than right at the flag, but where would the fun in that be? :)

[Nessism]

> @dciccoritti said:

> > @Nessism said:

> > I said my miss is on the toe. I don't hit all shots consistently off the toe. Toe shots with a blade are way more penal than those off my G410's. It's a night and day difference.

>

> When you say night and day difference, what are we taking? Let's say 6 iron or around the 26 degree loft. I'm genuinely curious.

>

 

I've never quantified. I played blades for more than a decade (I started playing regularly in the early 1980's) then moved to smallish CB's. It's only more recently (this decade) that I've put full sized GI clubs in the bag. It's not like I'm inexperienced with what the different clubs are capable of. I've been single digit since 1986 or so. If forced to guess i'd say we are talking about 6 yards or so difference in distance, but the blade will flare off direction wise with a toe hit more than a honk'n GI club with high MOI like the 410's.

 

My most recent experience with blades/small CB's has been with some Wilson Progressive irons. Love those things. They switch from CB to blade with the 8 iron. Solid strikes are orgasmic. My biggest misses with those clubs was fat; anything even slightly behind the ball was dig city. My local course doesn't have much grass and it takes a precise strike with a sharp leading edge iron to avoid massive distance loss from digging (my second most common miss, after toe strikes, is steep.)

 

Lastly, one thing that always strikes me as ironic is how pretty much 100% of the blade proponents use a full sized driver. And please, don't tell me that a 440cc driver is "small". How come you guys aren't using something smaller? An Original One? If concentration and punishment leads to results it would only make sense that more people would have these clubs, but that's not the case.

 

 

[bodhi555]

> @Nessism said:

> > @dciccoritti said:

> > > @Nessism said:

> > > I said my miss is on the toe. I don't hit all shots consistently off the toe. Toe shots with a blade are way more penal than those off my G410's. It's a night and day difference.

> >

> > When you say night and day difference, what are we taking? Let's say 6 iron or around the 26 degree loft. I'm genuinely curious.

> >

>

> I've never quantified. I played blades for more than a decade (I started playing regularly in the early 1980's) then moved to smallish CB's. It's only more recently (this decade) that I've put full sized GI clubs in the bag. It's not like I'm inexperienced with what the different clubs are capable of. I've been single digit since 1986 or so. If forced to guess i'd say we are talking about 6 yards or so difference in distance, but the blade will flare off direction wise with a toe hit more than a honk'n GI club with high MOI like the 410's.

>

> My most recent experience with blades/small CB's has been with some Wilson Progressive irons. Love those things. They switch from CB to blade with the 8 iron. Solid strikes are orgasmic. My biggest misses with those clubs was fat; anything even slightly behind the ball was dig city. My local course doesn't have much grass and it takes a precise strike with a sharp leading edge iron to avoid massive distance loss from digging (my second most common miss, after toe strikes, is steep.)

>

> Lastly, one thing that always strikes me as ironic is how pretty much 100% of the blade proponents use a full sized driver. And please, don't tell me that a 440cc driver is "small". How come you guys aren't using something smaller? An Original One? If concentration and punishment leads to results it would only make sense that more people would have these clubs, but that's not the case.

>

>

 

I'd love to get fully fitted for a sub 10 degree, sub 400 cc Driver.

 

Any idea where in the UK I can find one post 2005?

[Nessism]

> @bodhi555 said:

 

> I'd love to get fully fitted for a sub 10 degree, sub 400 cc Driver.

>

> Any idea where in the UK I can find one post 2005?

 

Not sub 10 degree but otherwise the obvious answer...

 

https://www.taylormadegolf.com/Original-One-Mini-Driver/DW-JJI11.html?lang=default

[duffer987]

> @bodhi555 said:

> > @Nessism said:

> > > @dciccoritti said:

> > > > @Nessism said:

> > > > I said my miss is on the toe. I don't hit all shots consistently off the toe. Toe shots with a blade are way more penal than those off my G410's. It's a night and day difference.

> > >

> > > When you say night and day difference, what are we taking? Let's say 6 iron or around the 26 degree loft. I'm genuinely curious.

> > >

> >

> > I've never quantified. I played blades for more than a decade (I started playing regularly in the early 1980's) then moved to smallish CB's. It's only more recently (this decade) that I've put full sized GI clubs in the bag. It's not like I'm inexperienced with what the different clubs are capable of. I've been single digit since 1986 or so. If forced to guess i'd say we are talking about 6 yards or so difference in distance, but the blade will flare off direction wise with a toe hit more than a honk'n GI club with high MOI like the 410's.

> >

> > My most recent experience with blades/small CB's has been with some Wilson Progressive irons. Love those things. They switch from CB to blade with the 8 iron. Solid strikes are orgasmic. My biggest misses with those clubs was fat; anything even slightly behind the ball was dig city. My local course doesn't have much grass and it takes a precise strike with a sharp leading edge iron to avoid massive distance loss from digging (my second most common miss, after toe strikes, is steep.)

> >

> > Lastly, one thing that always strikes me as ironic is how pretty much 100% of the blade proponents use a full sized driver. And please, don't tell me that a 440cc driver is "small". How come you guys aren't using something smaller? An Original One? If concentration and punishment leads to results it would only make sense that more people would have these clubs, but that's not the case.

> >

> >

>

> I'd love to get fully fitted for a sub 10 degree, sub 400 cc Driver.

>

> Any idea where in the UK I can find one post 2005?

 

11.5* head and turn it down to 9.5*, opens the face up that way too. Or maybe leave it in double-digits and be pleasantly surprised. Do start a new thread when you go get fit, could be really helpful!

https://www.taylormadegolf.com/Original-One-Mini-Driver/DW-JJI11.html?lang=default

https://www.taylormadegolf.co.uk/fitting.html

 

Edit: Ha Ness beat me by a couple minutes :-)

[bodhi555]

> @Nessism said:

> > @bodhi555 said:

>

> > I'd love to get fully fitted for a sub 10 degree, sub 400 cc Driver.

> >

> > Any idea where in the UK I can find one post 2005?

>

> Not sub 10 degree but otherwise the obvious answer...

>

> https://www.taylormadegolf.com/Original-One-Mini-Driver/DW-JJI11.html?lang=default

 

So not what I asked for then.

 

I actually have a GBB HawkEye Pro Series in my Office, sub 300 cc and 7.5 degrees, and I would be tempted to put it in the bag - but my current Titleist is about 40 yards longer, so I'd be a bit silly to give that up. Plus I'm looking for different stuff in a Driver - with irons I want to hit a number, with the big dog I want that number to be as big as possible.

[MelloYello]

> @bodhi555 said:

>

> That is an incredibly well justified and reasoned post - you sure you've got the right thread? ;)

>

> You have, however, entirely hit the nail on the head - everyone's games are that slight bit different, and the only real person who can determine what sort of irons that golfer will play best with is the golfer themselves, but there are a few rules of thumb we can apply universally.

>

> For instance you mentioned that you tend to miss out of the toe, and blades are nothing but pain out there - and I entirely agree with you, they weren't designed for that in the slightest. However I can quite comfortably sit here and say that toe misses aren't something I struggle with with my irons - maybe 1 or 2 a range session, but rarely out on the course. Slightly thin (which I find the VR Pros let you get away with) or more towards the heel (ditto) is my miss, and I don't find my current blades punish me for that.

>

> On the long irons, I certainly aren't going to disagree with you there either - I have a VR Pro Combo 4 iron that I bought to tinker with, as the VR Pro 4 iron can look a little intimidating early on in the round - and the Pro Combo does look a bit more inviting - sadly it goes 15 yards shorter than the blade, with no real benefit in accuracy. I may tinker over winter with a shaft upgrade to see what's what. But once I'm warmed up I have no qualms about getting the VR Pro 4 iron out.

>

> Accuracy - Recently I've only really played CB's when I've been renting clubs, so only ever have 18 holes at a time to get used to them - however, in my experience they help straighten the ball flight if you hit it off the toe / heel, but are less effective if you hit the centre but close the face (as I do when my right hand grip pressure gets too high).

>

> Not sure I'd say I can tell you the difference between a 162 yard swing and a 160, but between 165 and 160? Definitely. One's a solid 7 iron and the other requires choking down the grip an inch :) But if I'm playing my approach shot I will typically laser the flag, then pick whatever club I need to hit that distance taking into account wind, elevation, where the trouble is etc. I could probably boost my GIR percentage if I aimed at the centre of a few greens rather than right at the flag, but where would the fun in that be? :)

 

Why do you think the CB 4-iron goes so unexpectedly short? That seems weird? Shaft issue?

 

Btw, I know what you mean when you say "intimidating," but I think for me it was more just general performance. I was just always skeptical of my ability to hit the MB long irons high (at least from the turf). Even reasonably well-struck shots would often come out kind of low compared with what I wanted to see.

 

I tried the T-MB but that didn't do much for it either. In the end, I think it was mostly a shaft thing. I had trouble lifting a heavy Dynamic Gold up in the air unless I had it teed up. The lighter-weight AMT version I have in my CBs is only like 108- or 110-g by the time you get down into those longest irons so they are distinctly easier to swing.

 

So maybe there is something intimidating about a blade 3- or 4-iron but I don't think it's necessary that it's small or hard to pure or anything like that. I've always said that modern blades don't really get smaller than the set 6-iron. They just get stronger in loft. So if you can hit the 6-iron you can just as easily hit the 3- or 4-iron. It's just a question of whether or not you can give it enough juice. I think it's just a bad feeling when you have a club and you just don't really trust that even your best is quite enough.

[dciccoritti]

> @Nessism said:

> > @dciccoritti said:

> > > @Nessism said:

> > > I said my miss is on the toe. I don't hit all shots consistently off the toe. Toe shots with a blade are way more penal than those off my G410's. It's a night and day difference.

> >

> > When you say night and day difference, what are we taking? Let's say 6 iron or around the 26 degree loft. I'm genuinely curious.

> >

>

> I've never quantified. I played blades for more than a decade (I started playing regularly in the early 1980's) then moved to smallish CB's. It's only more recently (this decade) that I've put full sized GI clubs in the bag. It's not like I'm inexperienced with what the different clubs are capable of. I've been single digit since 1986 or so. If forced to guess i'd say we are talking about 6 yards or so difference in distance, but the blade will flare off direction wise with a toe hit more than a honk'n GI club with high MOI like the 410's.

>

> My most recent experience with blades/small CB's has been with some Wilson Progressive irons. Love those things. They switch from CB to blade with the 8 iron. Solid strikes are orgasmic. My biggest misses with those clubs was fat; anything even slightly behind the ball was dig city. My local course doesn't have much grass and it takes a precise strike with a sharp leading edge iron to avoid massive distance loss from digging (my second most common miss, after toe strikes, is steep.)

>

> Lastly, one thing that always strikes me as ironic is how pretty much 100% of the blade proponents use a full sized driver. And please, don't tell me that a 440cc driver is "small". How come you guys aren't using something smaller? An Original One? If concentration and punishment leads to results it would only make sense that more people would have these clubs, but that's not the case.

>

>

 

There's isn't a single thing that a driver and an iron have in common other than the attempt to hit them both on line. The required variance between the two is astronomical. Not a comparison nor a discussion.

 

So you're saying your toe hit has an open face to path?

 

 

 

[bodhi555]

> @MelloYello said:

> > @bodhi555 said:

> >

> > That is an incredibly well justified and reasoned post - you sure you've got the right thread? ;)

> >

> > You have, however, entirely hit the nail on the head - everyone's games are that slight bit different, and the only real person who can determine what sort of irons that golfer will play best with is the golfer themselves, but there are a few rules of thumb we can apply universally.

> >

> > For instance you mentioned that you tend to miss out of the toe, and blades are nothing but pain out there - and I entirely agree with you, they weren't designed for that in the slightest. However I can quite comfortably sit here and say that toe misses aren't something I struggle with with my irons - maybe 1 or 2 a range session, but rarely out on the course. Slightly thin (which I find the VR Pros let you get away with) or more towards the heel (ditto) is my miss, and I don't find my current blades punish me for that.

> >

> > On the long irons, I certainly aren't going to disagree with you there either - I have a VR Pro Combo 4 iron that I bought to tinker with, as the VR Pro 4 iron can look a little intimidating early on in the round - and the Pro Combo does look a bit more inviting - sadly it goes 15 yards shorter than the blade, with no real benefit in accuracy. I may tinker over winter with a shaft upgrade to see what's what. But once I'm warmed up I have no qualms about getting the VR Pro 4 iron out.

> >

> > Accuracy - Recently I've only really played CB's when I've been renting clubs, so only ever have 18 holes at a time to get used to them - however, in my experience they help straighten the ball flight if you hit it off the toe / heel, but are less effective if you hit the centre but close the face (as I do when my right hand grip pressure gets too high).

> >

> > Not sure I'd say I can tell you the difference between a 162 yard swing and a 160, but between 165 and 160? Definitely. One's a solid 7 iron and the other requires choking down the grip an inch :) But if I'm playing my approach shot I will typically laser the flag, then pick whatever club I need to hit that distance taking into account wind, elevation, where the trouble is etc. I could probably boost my GIR percentage if I aimed at the centre of a few greens rather than right at the flag, but where would the fun in that be? :)

>

> Why do you think the CB 4-iron goes so unexpectedly short? That seems weird? Shaft issue?

>

> Btw, I know what you mean when you say "intimidating," but I think for me it was more just general performance. I was just always skeptical of my ability to hit the MB long irons high (at least from the turf). Even reasonably well-struck shots would often come out kind of low compared with what I wanted to see.

>

> I tried the T-MB but that didn't do much for it either. In the end, I think it was mostly a shaft thing. I had trouble lifting a heavy Dynamic Gold up in the air unless I had it teed up. The lighter-weight AMT version I have in my CBs is only like 108- or 110-g by the time you get down into those longest irons so they are distinctly easier to swing.

>

> So maybe there is something intimidating about a blade 3- or 4-iron but I don't think it's necessary that it's small or hard to pure or anything like that. I've always said that modern blades don't really get smaller than the set 6-iron. They just get stronger in loft. So if you can hit the 6-iron you can just as easily hit the 3- or 4-iron. It's just a question of whether or not you can give it enough juice. I think it's just a bad feeling when you have a club and you just don't really trust that even your best is quite enough.

 

Only thing I can think of is that it is a shaft issue. My set has S400 Tour Issues, the Pro Combo has normal S300's, and putting them next to each other the blade seems around an inch longer, so that would explain the discrepancy in yardage - as I know it isn't an issue with the head.

 

Interesting you mention trajectory as that is the other reason I picked up the Pro Combo, as since I started changing my swing and getting rid of the flick through impact, I've been having a couple of issues holding greens with a 4 iron I didn't have before, however I manage that by trying to chase a 5 iron up, on the rare occasions I'm going for the green from 220 yards away. The Pro Combo definitely travels on a higher trajectory, just not as far.

[Titleist_PT23]

> @dciccoritti said:

> > @Nessism said:

> > > @dciccoritti said:

> > > > @Nessism said:

> > > > I said my miss is on the toe. I don't hit all shots consistently off the toe. Toe shots with a blade are way more penal than those off my G410's. It's a night and day difference.

> > >

> > > When you say night and day difference, what are we taking? Let's say 6 iron or around the 26 degree loft. I'm genuinely curious.

> > >

> >

> > I've never quantified. I played blades for more than a decade (I started playing regularly in the early 1980's) then moved to smallish CB's. It's only more recently (this decade) that I've put full sized GI clubs in the bag. It's not like I'm inexperienced with what the different clubs are capable of. I've been single digit since 1986 or so. If forced to guess i'd say we are talking about 6 yards or so difference in distance, but the blade will flare off direction wise with a toe hit more than a honk'n GI club with high MOI like the 410's.

> >

> > My most recent experience with blades/small CB's has been with some Wilson Progressive irons. Love those things. They switch from CB to blade with the 8 iron. Solid strikes are orgasmic. My biggest misses with those clubs was fat; anything even slightly behind the ball was dig city. My local course doesn't have much grass and it takes a precise strike with a sharp leading edge iron to avoid massive distance loss from digging (my second most common miss, after toe strikes, is steep.)

> >

> > Lastly, one thing that always strikes me as ironic is how pretty much 100% of the blade proponents use a full sized driver. And please, don't tell me that a 440cc driver is "small". How come you guys aren't using something smaller? An Original One? If concentration and punishment leads to results it would only make sense that more people would have these clubs, but that's not the case.

> >

> >

>

> There's isn't a single thing that a driver and an iron have in common other than the attempt to hit them both on line. The required variance between the two is astronomical. Not a comparison nor a discussion.

You are missing the key phrases of his statement. There is no doubt that the objective with the driver and irons are different. All else equal, I can't imagine a smaller driver that will have a better distance-dispersion trade-off than the current modern drivers (430-460 cc).

 

But, if the smaller clubhead itself leads to better quality strikes/swings (i.e. the concentration and feedback argument for blades), then the there is no reason why an improvement in strike shouldn't happen with the driver either. If the improvement is substantial enough, it would trump the added forgiveness of the bigger head.

 

Now, if you play blades because a) you just hit them better (don't like offset or whatever else) or b) you can actually control the flight of the ball better with blades and you acknowledge they are slightly worse on mishits but net-net you believe there is still a benefit to you well then the smaller driver question doesn't apply. But if you believe the smaller clubhead itself improves concentration and strike efficiency I don't know why it's not a valid question.

 

As I mentioned earlier, none of the pros play a 340 cc driver. Partly, there's very little they need to do off the tee other than hit it far and relatively straight. But I don't think the smaller clubhead itself (iron or wood) is helping them hit the middle more either. Most likely, it's a large weighting on b) above.

[mahonie]

> @Nessism said:

> > @Exactice808 said:

> > > @BiggErn said:

> > >

> > > How did you come to that conclusion? If he hits quite a few on the button and a couple here and there toward the toe the CB is gonna be less punishing especially on distance. Yea sure he could do the same with an MB and play a far worse miss but why would he?

> >

> > Sorry I didnt understand your response "He probably hits a few on the button" Such a vague response. So I had to ask to clarify.

> >

> > You again validate my point if its pure distance loss, the distance loss would be proportional though right as he admits his misses equal on the toe for CB and MB. Its not the clubs fault.

> >

> > YES while the distance loss is greater, the recover shot would be again consistent while further back he would still play a consistent longer recovery shot on missed shots? So is it an actual loss to play the MB's because he misses consistently on the toe be it MB or CB or could he actually play them just knowing that he does have a longer recovery shot. (This is conjecture and not reality, but just discussing on a public forum)

>

> I said my miss is on the toe. I don't hit all shots consistently off the toe. Toe shots with a blade are way more penal than those off my G410's. It's a night and day difference.

 

Isn’t a toe miss with a G410 a complete air shot with a blade? ;-)

[Nessism]

> @dciccoritti said:

> There's isn't a single thing that a driver and an iron have in common other than the attempt to hit them both on line. The required variance between the two is astronomical. Not a comparison nor a discussion.

>

> So you're saying your toe hit has an open face to path?

>

 

Contact off the sweet spot (CG) with a high MOI club, whether driver or iron, will result in less face twisting thus there will be more accuracy. That's the whole deal with GI irons and large drivers.

And no, I'm not saying my toe strikes have an open face to path.

 

 

[Exactice808]

> @Nessism said:

> > @dciccoritti said:

> > There's isn't a single thing that a driver and an iron have in common other than the attempt to hit them both on line. The required variance between the two is astronomical. Not a comparison nor a discussion.

> >

> > So you're saying your toe hit has an open face to path?

> >

>

> Contact off the sweet spot (CG) with a high MOI club, whether driver or iron, will result in less face twisting thus there will be more accuracy. That's the whole deal with GI irons and large drivers.

> And no, I'm not saying my toe strikes have an open face to path.

>

>

I agree with you and understand. But again if I may. The accuracy exceptions with a driver compared to an iron in my opinion is wide.

 

I’ve said it before. 50 yard fairway vs aiming at a cup 4.25”.

 

Most people accept accurate with a driver that hits a fairway. Most people do not accept the accuracy of just hitting a green but 20+ft away from the pin.

 

Most people’s goal is to hit a driver as far as possible. I don’t know much people who try to hit a PW as far as possible but rather at a specified distance as close to that distance as possible.

 

I can say my PW is 130 in a 5y circle so 125-135

 

My driver I cannot say I have a a distance at that consistency. It could be as wide as 30 yards. Let’s say I can hit 240 average hit the distance can vary 210-270 that’s not very accurate is it?!?

 

[Exactice808]

For those that keep trying to justify size of driver vs size of iron. How ever you justify it. Is there a Blade Driver?

 

I know of no blade driver. I know strong lofted 3woods essentially mini drivers. But also the Benefit is usually is a 43” shaft that likely benefits more than just a smaller head to concentrate more.

 

Anyways I understand 440cc and larger heads just have greater surface area to widen the sweet spot.

 

Honestly a GI profile and even SGI profiles in comparison to MBs are no we’re near a sub 300cc vs 460cc. Surface area discrepancy.

 

Missing 1/4” on a 460cc has way more benefits than missing on 1/4” on a SGI. On my limited opinion.

 

But I will agree there are benefits from missing 1/4”. On and SGI vs 1/4” on and MB.

[Jimmy2balls]

I started playing golf again about 2 years ago after a 25 year lay off. I wasn’t good then either. I bought new Ping G irons and decided to practice and play way more, about once a week and swing at home. I Shoot high 80’s low 90’s regularly.

 

2 months ago I sold the G’s and bought iBlades. I know not true blades but close. For me as a mid capper I feel the blades made the game more fun and my dispersion is way down. In fact it seems they may have made my swing better not worse. I have also found that swinging a long 3 iron for practice makes every other iron easier to hit pure.

 

J2B

[Nard_S]

> @Exactice808 said:

> For those that keep trying to justify size of driver vs size of iron. How ever you justify it. Is there a Blade Driver?

>

> I know of no blade driver. I know strong lofted 3woods essentially mini drivers. But also the Benefit is usually is a 43” shaft that likely benefits more than just a smaller head to concentrate more.

>

The modern big Ti blade driver can be found in a TM R510 TP. That or just start nutting a #3W off the deck.

 

I find it irksome to hear I'm playing blades to"concentrate". I like the concentration of mass but other than that the last thing I want to do is "focus".

 

I'm swinging poorly of late. So I take several irons to range and try to dig out solution. Funny (but not surprising) to find the heaviest, stiffest setup trumps lighter more forgiving one in getting path, face and CF contact straightened out. So folks can keep chasing MOI and lighter setups and the extra 15' on toe hits. Even blades with lighter parallel shafts and skinny grips represent a greater challenge than old school sledgehammer.

[NRJyzr]

Apologies in advance, this will be kind of long...

 

 

> @Nessism said:

>

> I've never quantified. I played blades for more than a decade (I started playing regularly in the early 1980's) then moved to smallish CB's. It's only more recently (this decade) that I've put full sized GI clubs in the bag. It's not like I'm inexperienced with what the different clubs are capable of. I've been single digit since 1986 or so. If forced to guess i'd say we are talking about 6 yards or so difference in distance, but the blade will flare off direction wise with a toe hit more than a honk'n GI club with high MOI like the 410's.

 

 

I've been avoiding this thread, but decided to see what the last page was like, and it seems lucid, so I'll jump in the sandbox....

 

My experience is that blade toe hits don't flare as much as you describe. They do come up short. What I've found interesting is, in the times I've tested it, the player's CBs on similar hits would come up almost equally short. In this case, I'm talking about Maxfli A10 irons, at the 26* or 30* loft, comparing to Golden Rams with the same shaft. Anecdotal as a certain religious, extremely warm, place, but it's borne across many tests.

 

Get to the bigger, even more forgiving irons, and the above is a bit different. This is where I see some flaring from toe hits, with less loss of distance.

 

Where I've had problems with the CB world is heel hits. I'll frequently get weird, short and flared shots with heeled long irons. ISI, Eye2+, Peerless Tours (I really wanted to like these), AVDP Tours, and so on... they all did much the same thing. I've had an unholy affinity for the ISI and they were maybe worse than the rest on those heel shots. Very disappointing.

 

Again, just my experience. I'm not trying to say your experience is incorrect, just offering another perspective.

 

 

> @Nessism said:

>

> Lastly, one thing that always strikes me as ironic is how pretty much 100% of the blade proponents use a full sized driver. And please, don't tell me that a 440cc driver is "small".

>

>

 

It's interesting you bring this up. I frequently play with smaller drivers, especially persimmons and laminates. I even dug out my old Golfsmith XPC Tour Steel driver, all of 230cc, and cut it down to my generally preferred length of 43.5", took it for a spin. I was more accurate with it, but there's no way to quantify how much of that was due to the 90g+ shaft; I expect it's a not insignificant player. The biggest problem is that I don't hit the ball as high as I did 17 years ago, and I was hitting this too low. Stupid aging. (maybe I should take out my J's Professional Weapon, hmmm...)

 

The persimmons/laminates have confounded me. I've heard, and even seen, how many struggle with them, and can't wait to get to the world of the metal driver. I've never had any trouble with them. Until a beyond ridiculous cart path aided drive earlier this year, my longest tee shot of the past four seasons was with a Ping Zing Blonde laminate with KT-M shaft (green dot if anyone cares). I've also seen an incredible improvement in lateral accuracy with them. Not just Pine's "hitting it shorter is inherently more accurate," but actual lateral accuracy improvements. The distance is shorter on average (duh, 460cc vs 190cc or 250cc at most), but not that much so for me, and especially not on good hits.

 

Almost all of my organic material woods have steel shafts, and again, the heavier shaft weight may well play a part for me.

 

Why don't I play them full time? A couple reasons... one is that the persimmons seem to remove the occasional bomb from the result population. Aside from that one "longest of last four years, but one" drive, I may have been over 300 yds five times over the last 15 years with persimmon, even in the days when I could still bring it a bit. And the second is that I'm susceptible to the occasional looking-like-a-30-hdcp-driver-swing, which tend to result in barely making contact with a 400cc or more stick. Those don't work so well with a 190cc stick. LOL

 

FWIW, not that it matters, totally agree with you on 440cc or even 430cc drivers being "small." They're not.

 

 

> @Nessism said:

>

>How come you guys aren't using something smaller? An Original One? If concentration and punishment leads to results it would only make sense that more people would have these clubs, but that's not the case.

>

>

 

 

Honestly, because I'm a cheap so and so. LOL

That said, love the idea, and already have a shaft I could plug in it (RIP Alpha 80).

 

I have given consideration to buying a Mizuno TZoid Forged driver, and giving it some run. It might be quite interesting.

[autronicdsm]

> @revanant said:

>

>

>

 

What's up with your glove?

 

 

[mahonie]

> @NRJyzr said:

> Apologies in advance, this will be kind of long...

>

>

> > @Nessism said:

> >

> > I've never quantified. I played blades for more than a decade (I started playing regularly in the early 1980's) then moved to smallish CB's. It's only more recently (this decade) that I've put full sized GI clubs in the bag. It's not like I'm inexperienced with what the different clubs are capable of. I've been single digit since 1986 or so. If forced to guess i'd say we are talking about 6 yards or so difference in distance, but the blade will flare off direction wise with a toe hit more than a honk'n GI club with high MOI like the 410's.

>

>

> I've been avoiding this thread, but decided to see what the last page was like, and it seems lucid, so I'll jump in the sandbox....

>

> My experience is that blade toe hits don't flare as much as you describe. They do come up short. What I've found interesting is, in the times I've tested it, the player's CBs on similar hits would come up almost equally short. In this case, I'm talking about Maxfli A10 irons, at the 26* or 30* loft, comparing to Golden Rams with the same shaft. Anecdotal as a certain religious, extremely warm, place, but it's borne across many tests.

>

> Get to the bigger, even more forgiving irons, and the above is a bit different. This is where I see some flaring from toe hits, with less loss of distance.

>

> Where I've had problems with the CB world is heel hits. I'll frequently get weird, short and flared shots with heeled long irons. ISI, Eye2+, Peerless Tours (I really wanted to like these), AVDP Tours, and so on... they all did much the same thing. I've had an unholy affinity for the ISI and they were maybe worse than the rest on those heel shots. Very disappointing.

>

> Again, just my experience. I'm not trying to say your experience is incorrect, just offering another perspective.

>

>

> > @Nessism said:

> >

> > Lastly, one thing that always strikes me as ironic is how pretty much 100% of the blade proponents use a full sized driver. And please, don't tell me that a 440cc driver is "small".

> >

> >

>

> It's interesting you bring this up. I frequently play with smaller drivers, especially persimmons and laminates. I even dug out my old Golfsmith XPC Tour Steel driver, all of 230cc, and cut it down to my generally preferred length of 43.5", took it for a spin. I was more accurate with it, but there's no way to quantify how much of that was due to the 90g+ shaft; I expect it's a not insignificant player. The biggest problem is that I don't hit the ball as high as I did 17 years ago, and I was hitting this too low. Stupid aging. (maybe I should take out my J's Professional Weapon, hmmm...)

>

> The persimmons/laminates have confounded me. I've heard, and even seen, how many struggle with them, and can't wait to get to the world of the metal driver. I've never had any trouble with them. Until a beyond ridiculous cart path aided drive earlier this year, my longest tee shot of the past four seasons was with a Ping Zing Blonde laminate with KT-M shaft (green dot if anyone cares). I've also seen an incredible improvement in lateral accuracy with them. Not just Pine's "hitting it shorter is inherently more accurate," but actual lateral accuracy improvements. The distance is shorter on average (duh, 460cc vs 190cc or 250cc at most), but not that much so for me, and especially not on good hits.

>

> Almost all of my organic material woods have steel shafts, and again, the heavier shaft weight may well play a part for me.

>

> Why don't I play them full time? A couple reasons... one is that the persimmons seem to remove the occasional bomb from the result population. Aside from that one "longest of last four years, but one" drive, I may have been over 300 yds five times over the last 15 years with persimmon, even in the days when I could still bring it a bit. And the second is that I'm susceptible to the occasional looking-like-a-30-hdcp-driver-swing, which tend to result in barely making contact with a 400cc or more stick. Those don't work so well with a 190cc stick. LOL

>

> FWIW, not that it matters, totally agree with you on 440cc or even 430cc drivers being "small." They're not.

>

>

> > @Nessism said:

> >

> >How come you guys aren't using something smaller? An Original One? If concentration and punishment leads to results it would only make sense that more people would have these clubs, but that's not the case.

> >

> >

>

>

> Honestly, because I'm a cheap so and so. LOL

> That said, love the idea, and already have a shaft I could plug in it (RIP Alpha 80).

>

> I have given consideration to buying a Mizuno TZoid Forged driver, and giving it some run. It might be quite interesting.

 

If I could play the original King Cobra driver with steel shaft I would...unfortunately it is non-conforming so I can’t. Longer and straighter than my current driver so I gave it away to a teaching pro for use with his students.