My Experience Gaming Blades as a Mid-High Handicapper

[revanant]

> @mahonie said:

> @revanant after you’ve finished Broadie’s book, try Bob Rotella’s ‘Putting Out of Your Mind.’ Everyone I know who’s read it has improved their putting.

>

> In fact, all of Rotella’s books have helped in one way or another ;-)

 

Thanks! I’ll check it out. Personally, I’m partial to Zen Golf, but it fits with my general outlook on golf. I don’t mind the bumps in the road, and it’s easy for me to focus on the highlights of a round.

[puttingmatt]

> @ian-500 said:

> I'm off 12 and just bought these....

>

>

 

Sweet ! Enjoy them

[Tree Levino]

> @ian-500 said:

> I'm off 12 and just bought these....

>

>

 

Nice, though personally I think the pricing is a bit extreme. I'd be going Z Forged all day. Endo forged at a very reasonable price.

[mahonie]

> @mahonie said:

> > @balls_deep said:

> > > @mahonie said:

> > > > @BiggErn said:

> > > > > @chisag said:

> > > > >

> > > > > > @BiggErn said:

> > > > > > Your sources do not back you up. Stats on every tour come from on course conditions with many more variables than hitting straight away into a sim. Pros would probably hit inside a 10 ft circle on an indoor sim, not sure why you can’t grasp how flawed your assessment is.

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > ... Time to give credit where credit is due. Revanant should be in the Troll Hall Of Fame. Members have been trading arguments with a self admitted 25 that claims MB's has reduced his index to 23. If he switched to a persimmon driver there is a very good chance he could get that 23 down to a 22. :D

> > > >

> > > > Lol. It’s hard to tell since there are so many delusional arguments presented by the double digit MB crowd.

> > >

> > > @BiggErn @balls_deep @chisag...does anything more need to be said?

> >

> > This argument reminds me very much of surfing. It was usually the beginner/intermediate surfer that got overconfident and wanted to ride a super low volume high performance shortboard in marginal wages (which if you don’t know surfing takes a lot of skill) and the advanced who was accepting of the benefits of “help” and would ride something “easier”. The sh*t surfer would be flailing around while the good surfer was ripping.

> >

> > Shot 76 yesterday mainly due to putting. Went back to arm lock - 12 putts on the front. Irons wouldn’t have mattered for the most part aside from a couple of circumstances when I think the CB helped. Tough lies with the ball way above or below my feet I got the distance I needed off the toe or heel of the club. Would’ve been a different story with the blades.

> >

> > I will say regardless of CB vs MB, having loft on your clubs is so important. I had a few shots out of flier lies yesterday that would’ve been way gone without the amount of spin I get. Instead the ball is stopping out of the rough, even downwind due to loft and a narrow sole.

>

> I’m playing a scramble on Sunday with a good friend off 4 cap who a few years ago won an unbelievable prize with Cobra/Puma which included a fitting with the Chief European Tour fitter. (Other parts of the prize included clinics with Poults, Ricky, Blixt and Lexi, Pro-am with aforementioned at Fry’s.com, clothing, shoes, trip to Cobra HQ, etc). He got fitted into the Cobra Amp MBs I think but has just been fitted into Titleist CBs. He’s played MBs all his life and it will be interesting to see how he’s getting on...I will report back.

 

Just got back from scramble. Titleist CBs are very nice. My mate hits them very well...he’s a 4 and I didn’t expect anything else. However, his mishits still put him in the cabbage and what blows my mind somewhat is that the CB, which obviously has a thicker topline, has a blade length that is actually shorter than my MP4s. I could definitely play them but they won’t be giving me anything my MP4s don’t already give me. We won the Scramble btw ?

 

[BMC]

Once you can hit the ball OK, confidence is a huge factor in golf success. I learned to play with Wilson Staff blades on a rock hard muni course - so, I'm a picker. Looking down at a blade gives me confidence 30 years later, and I've owned a bunch of GI clubs, too. 7 handicap now and was no better with GI irons.

[Double Dodger]

Love my Srixons. HC hovers around scratch and I can definitely say I play better with ‘good’ blades. There are probably more crappy blades than people realize. Most companies these days don’t focus on blades for the very reasons bing discussed here. There’s not a big market. If you want to try blades stick to the company’s that specializes in that niche.

[Tree Levino]

> @mahonie said:

> > @mahonie said:

> > > @balls_deep said:

> > > > @mahonie said:

> > > > > @BiggErn said:

> > > > > > @chisag said:

> > > > > >

> > > > > > > @BiggErn said:

> > > > > > > Your sources do not back you up. Stats on every tour come from on course conditions with many more variables than hitting straight away into a sim. Pros would probably hit inside a 10 ft circle on an indoor sim, not sure why you can’t grasp how flawed your assessment is.

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > ... Time to give credit where credit is due. Revanant should be in the Troll Hall Of Fame. Members have been trading arguments with a self admitted 25 that claims MB's has reduced his index to 23. If he switched to a persimmon driver there is a very good chance he could get that 23 down to a 22. :D

> > > > >

> > > > > Lol. It’s hard to tell since there are so many delusional arguments presented by the double digit MB crowd.

> > > >

> > > > @BiggErn @balls_deep @chisag...does anything more need to be said?

> > >

> > > This argument reminds me very much of surfing. It was usually the beginner/intermediate surfer that got overconfident and wanted to ride a super low volume high performance shortboard in marginal wages (which if you don’t know surfing takes a lot of skill) and the advanced who was accepting of the benefits of “help” and would ride something “easier”. The sh*t surfer would be flailing around while the good surfer was ripping.

> > >

> > > Shot 76 yesterday mainly due to putting. Went back to arm lock - 12 putts on the front. Irons wouldn’t have mattered for the most part aside from a couple of circumstances when I think the CB helped. Tough lies with the ball way above or below my feet I got the distance I needed off the toe or heel of the club. Would’ve been a different story with the blades.

> > >

> > > I will say regardless of CB vs MB, having loft on your clubs is so important. I had a few shots out of flier lies yesterday that would’ve been way gone without the amount of spin I get. Instead the ball is stopping out of the rough, even downwind due to loft and a narrow sole.

> >

> > I’m playing a scramble on Sunday with a good friend off 4 cap who a few years ago won an unbelievable prize with Cobra/Puma which included a fitting with the Chief European Tour fitter. (Other parts of the prize included clinics with Poults, Ricky, Blixt and Lexi, Pro-am with aforementioned at Fry’s.com, clothing, shoes, trip to Cobra HQ, etc). He got fitted into the Cobra Amp MBs I think but has just been fitted into Titleist CBs. He’s played MBs all his life and it will be interesting to see how he’s getting on...I will report back.

>

> Just got back from scramble. Titleist CBs are very nice. My mate hits them very well...he’s a 4 and I didn’t expect anything else. However, his mishits still put him in the cabbage and what blows my mind somewhat is that the CB, which obviously has a thicker topline, has a blade length that is actually shorter than my MP4s. I could definitely play them but they won’t be giving me anything my MP4s don’t already give me. We won the Scramble btw ?

>

 

Yes they’re definitely a shorter blade length. MOI is much higher though. Hit both off the toe and tell me it does nothing. I quite a bit difference in miss hits. Both great sets. If you don’t miss middle take your pick. Over a season you’d see differences.

[mahonie]

> @balls_deep said:

> > @mahonie said:

> > > @mahonie said:

> > > > @balls_deep said:

> > > > > @mahonie said:

> > > > > > @BiggErn said:

> > > > > > > @chisag said:

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > @BiggErn said:

> > > > > > > > Your sources do not back you up. Stats on every tour come from on course conditions with many more variables than hitting straight away into a sim. Pros would probably hit inside a 10 ft circle on an indoor sim, not sure why you can’t grasp how flawed your assessment is.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > ... Time to give credit where credit is due. Revanant should be in the Troll Hall Of Fame. Members have been trading arguments with a self admitted 25 that claims MB's has reduced his index to 23. If he switched to a persimmon driver there is a very good chance he could get that 23 down to a 22. :D

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Lol. It’s hard to tell since there are so many delusional arguments presented by the double digit MB crowd.

> > > > >

> > > > > @BiggErn @balls_deep @chisag...does anything more need to be said?

> > > >

> > > > This argument reminds me very much of surfing. It was usually the beginner/intermediate surfer that got overconfident and wanted to ride a super low volume high performance shortboard in marginal wages (which if you don’t know surfing takes a lot of skill) and the advanced who was accepting of the benefits of “help” and would ride something “easier”. The sh*t surfer would be flailing around while the good surfer was ripping.

> > > >

> > > > Shot 76 yesterday mainly due to putting. Went back to arm lock - 12 putts on the front. Irons wouldn’t have mattered for the most part aside from a couple of circumstances when I think the CB helped. Tough lies with the ball way above or below my feet I got the distance I needed off the toe or heel of the club. Would’ve been a different story with the blades.

> > > >

> > > > I will say regardless of CB vs MB, having loft on your clubs is so important. I had a few shots out of flier lies yesterday that would’ve been way gone without the amount of spin I get. Instead the ball is stopping out of the rough, even downwind due to loft and a narrow sole.

> > >

> > > I’m playing a scramble on Sunday with a good friend off 4 cap who a few years ago won an unbelievable prize with Cobra/Puma which included a fitting with the Chief European Tour fitter. (Other parts of the prize included clinics with Poults, Ricky, Blixt and Lexi, Pro-am with aforementioned at Fry’s.com, clothing, shoes, trip to Cobra HQ, etc). He got fitted into the Cobra Amp MBs I think but has just been fitted into Titleist CBs. He’s played MBs all his life and it will be interesting to see how he’s getting on...I will report back.

> >

> > Just got back from scramble. Titleist CBs are very nice. My mate hits them very well...he’s a 4 and I didn’t expect anything else. However, his mishits still put him in the cabbage and what blows my mind somewhat is that the CB, which obviously has a thicker topline, has a blade length that is actually shorter than my MP4s. I could definitely play them but they won’t be giving me anything my MP4s don’t already give me. We won the Scramble btw ?

> >

>

> Yes they’re definitely a shorter blade length. MOI is much higher though. Hit both off the toe and tell me it does nothing. I quite a bit difference in miss hits. Both great sets. If you don’t miss middle take your pick. Over a season you’d see differences.

 

The toe hit with the CB is not so much a toe hit with the MP4 and judging by the couple of toe hits my mate had today, the drop off in distance would be pretty similar. Overall I think the very slightly higher MPF of the CB is evened out with that shorter blade length and I would see very little difference against the MP4s.

[Tree Levino]

> @mahonie said:

> > @balls_deep said:

> > > @mahonie said:

> > > > @mahonie said:

> > > > > @balls_deep said:

> > > > > > @mahonie said:

> > > > > > > @BiggErn said:

> > > > > > > > @chisag said:

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > @BiggErn said:

> > > > > > > > > Your sources do not back you up. Stats on every tour come from on course conditions with many more variables than hitting straight away into a sim. Pros would probably hit inside a 10 ft circle on an indoor sim, not sure why you can’t grasp how flawed your assessment is.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > ... Time to give credit where credit is due. Revanant should be in the Troll Hall Of Fame. Members have been trading arguments with a self admitted 25 that claims MB's has reduced his index to 23. If he switched to a persimmon driver there is a very good chance he could get that 23 down to a 22. :D

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Lol. It’s hard to tell since there are so many delusional arguments presented by the double digit MB crowd.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > @BiggErn @balls_deep @chisag...does anything more need to be said?

> > > > >

> > > > > This argument reminds me very much of surfing. It was usually the beginner/intermediate surfer that got overconfident and wanted to ride a super low volume high performance shortboard in marginal wages (which if you don’t know surfing takes a lot of skill) and the advanced who was accepting of the benefits of “help” and would ride something “easier”. The sh*t surfer would be flailing around while the good surfer was ripping.

> > > > >

> > > > > Shot 76 yesterday mainly due to putting. Went back to arm lock - 12 putts on the front. Irons wouldn’t have mattered for the most part aside from a couple of circumstances when I think the CB helped. Tough lies with the ball way above or below my feet I got the distance I needed off the toe or heel of the club. Would’ve been a different story with the blades.

> > > > >

> > > > > I will say regardless of CB vs MB, having loft on your clubs is so important. I had a few shots out of flier lies yesterday that would’ve been way gone without the amount of spin I get. Instead the ball is stopping out of the rough, even downwind due to loft and a narrow sole.

> > > >

> > > > I’m playing a scramble on Sunday with a good friend off 4 cap who a few years ago won an unbelievable prize with Cobra/Puma which included a fitting with the Chief European Tour fitter. (Other parts of the prize included clinics with Poults, Ricky, Blixt and Lexi, Pro-am with aforementioned at Fry’s.com, clothing, shoes, trip to Cobra HQ, etc). He got fitted into the Cobra Amp MBs I think but has just been fitted into Titleist CBs. He’s played MBs all his life and it will be interesting to see how he’s getting on...I will report back.

> > >

> > > Just got back from scramble. Titleist CBs are very nice. My mate hits them very well...he’s a 4 and I didn’t expect anything else. However, his mishits still put him in the cabbage and what blows my mind somewhat is that the CB, which obviously has a thicker topline, has a blade length that is actually shorter than my MP4s. I could definitely play them but they won’t be giving me anything my MP4s don’t already give me. We won the Scramble btw ?

> > >

> >

> > Yes they’re definitely a shorter blade length. MOI is much higher though. Hit both off the toe and tell me it does nothing. I quite a bit difference in miss hits. Both great sets. If you don’t miss middle take your pick. Over a season you’d see differences.

>

> The toe hit with the CB is not so much a toe hit with the MP4 and judging by the couple of toe hits my mate had today, the drop off in distance would be pretty similar. Overall I think the very slightly higher MPF of the CB is evened out with that shorter blade length and I would see very little difference against the MP4s.

 

The clubface doesn't open as much - that's the difference. Holds your line. You notice it in the long irons especially. I don't think you and I are ever going to agree on this issue. I have no problem shooting in the 70s with blades or CBs but I know for a fact my misses are better with CBs and I'll take the help. You believe what you believe and I believe what I believe. IMO if there really was no difference in forgiveness as you say OEMs would've just strengthened lofts on blades and moved the CG lower to compensate and that would be the "distance iron". Denying perimeter weighting and tungsten in heel and toe helping is illogical enough that I can't have a conversation with you. If you were right every single tour player down to mini tours would be using blades without question.

[Nard_S]

Most blade designs these days do have lower CG and strengthened loft.

[Tree Levino]

> @Nard_S said:

> Most blade designs these days do have lower CG and strengthened loft.

 

Most modern blades have a higher CG than the best loved Mizuno designs such as 14, 33, 32, 68, 69, 4, and 5.

[Nard_S]

CG by itself does not tell the whole story of setup. Most designs have shorter necks than designs of old, which does two things raises and pull horizontal CG heel side and it stiffens the tip a bit. A 1/4" makes a big difference in "playability". Modern designs are more centered impact bias and the groove of sweetness is less, which is significant to mortals. They've lowered initial spin and raised initial launch which is inherently a trick of "GI" tech. The blades in my avatar are hell of a lot more difficult to hit than the VR Pro's I'm toying with now.

[mahonie]

> @balls_deep said:

> > @Nard_S said:

> > Most blade designs these days do have lower CG and strengthened loft.

>

> Most modern blades have a higher CG than the best loved Mizuno designs such as 14, 33, 32, 68, 69, 4, and 5.

 

CG in MP4 is actually quite a bit lower than the Titleist CB (718) and as @Nard_S said, the lofts have got stronger. PW is 46* compared to 50* in my Wilson Staffs from the 1990s.

 

With regard to toe hits not opening the blade of the CB, this morning my mate dunched an 8-iron 30 yards short and right of the green and put it down to a bad toe strike and the face opening. I don’t dispute that the same swing with the MP4 would’ve put the ball any closer but it would not have been fairly similar and the CB would not have saved any shots in that situation.

 

Quite happy to end the discussion there...you stick to your very hard to hit CBs and I’ll stick to my hard to hit blades ;-)

[Tree Levino]

> @mahonie said:

> > @balls_deep said:

> > > @Nard_S said:

> > > Most blade designs these days do have lower CG and strengthened loft.

> >

> > Most modern blades have a higher CG than the best loved Mizuno designs such as 14, 33, 32, 68, 69, 4, and 5.

>

> CG in MP4 is actually quite a bit lower than the Titleist CB (718) and as @Nard_S said, the lofts have got stronger. PW is 46* compared to 50* in my Wilson Staffs from the 1990s.

>

> With regard to toe hits not opening the blade of the CB, this morning my mate dunched an 8-iron 30 yards short and right of the green and put it down to a bad toe strike and the face opening. I don’t dispute that the same swing with the MP4 would’ve put the ball any closer but it would not have been fairly similar and the CB would not have saved any shots in that situation.

>

> Quite happy to end the discussion there...you stick to your very hard to hit CBs and I’ll stick to my hard to hit blades ;-)

 

Wasn't comparing the CG to CBs. He said modern blades to older blades. My 716s have a CG lower than the equator of the ball and the sweet spot is moved slightly towards toe compared to the MP5s I had. Both great irons both very playable.

 

Your example doesn't mean much as your mate probably fatted that shot quite a bit if he lost 30 yards. A comparable strike slightly toeside but not fat with both irons will result in better distance and line retention with toe weighting. You should tell your mate to get his lies looked as as Titleists are generally way too upright for me. This can result in the heel catching which will shut the face down and result in that high toe fat. A fat shot will go nowhere with any golf club. That said, slightly higher bounce does help (such as the iBlades I had). Giving an example of one shot is pointless. Over a season of comparison (and shots that aren't hit chubby), a noticeable difference will be there comparing a CB to a blade. If you want to talk about a single shot, how about Adam Scott - arguably the best ball striker on tour - slightly miss hitting his MB 4 iron and it going in the drink yesterday?

[MK7Golf21]

I’m thinking of going back to a blade, haven’t played them in years. Mostly want to just because I prefer how they look at address. I like to hit my irons pretty far so my only concern is distance drop off if there is some. I’m a 3 handicap though

[farmer]

I like the word "dunch" to describe a shot.

[mahonie]

> @balls_deep said:

> > @mahonie said:

> > > @balls_deep said:

> > > > @Nard_S said:

> > > > Most blade designs these days do have lower CG and strengthened loft.

> > >

> > > Most modern blades have a higher CG than the best loved Mizuno designs such as 14, 33, 32, 68, 69, 4, and 5.

> >

> > CG in MP4 is actually quite a bit lower than the Titleist CB (718) and as @Nard_S said, the lofts have got stronger. PW is 46* compared to 50* in my Wilson Staffs from the 1990s.

> >

> > With regard to toe hits not opening the blade of the CB, this morning my mate dunched an 8-iron 30 yards short and right of the green and put it down to a bad toe strike and the face opening. I don’t dispute that the same swing with the MP4 would’ve put the ball any closer but it would not have been fairly similar and the CB would not have saved any shots in that situation.

> >

> > Quite happy to end the discussion there...you stick to your very hard to hit CBs and I’ll stick to my hard to hit blades ;-)

>

> Wasn't comparing the CG to CBs. He said modern blades to older blades. My 716s have a CG lower than the equator of the ball and the sweet spot is moved slightly towards toe compared to the MP5s I had. Both great irons both very playable.

>

> Your example doesn't mean much as your mate probably fatted that shot quite a bit if he lost 30 yards. A comparable strike slightly toeside but not fat with both irons will result in better distance and line retention with toe weighting. You should tell your mate to get his lies looked as as Titleists are generally way too upright for me. This can result in the heel catching which will shut the face down and result in that high toe fat. A fat shot will go nowhere with any golf club. That said, slightly higher bounce does help (such as the iBlades I had). Giving an example of one shot is pointless. Over a season of comparison (and shots that aren't hit chubby), a noticeable difference will be there comparing a CB to a blade. If you want to talk about a single shot, how about Adam Scott - arguably the best ball striker on tour - slightly miss hitting his MB 4 iron and it going in the drink yesterday?

 

MP5s are arguably less playable than the MP4s if using MPF as a guide and the 716 CB CG is actually fractionally above the equator of the ball which to be honest I don’t quite understand.

 

http://ralphmaltby.com/mpf/titleist/page/2/

 

To be totally fair to my mate, he did catch it a fraction heavy and for full disclosure I thinned a 6-iron into a greenside bunker on the same shot. (Handily the 10 handicap in our team, playing Ping i10s nailed the green with a 7-iron after the 6 handicap, playing Cleveland 588 TTs, hit 9-iron into the other green side bunker). Over the course of the round we had a pretty even spread of shots between the 4 of us resulting in 12 birdies and 6 pars.

 

The point I am making is that CBs don’t suddenly save shots on slight mishits...a bad swing is a bad swing...and all golfers play the game in different ways with different strengths and weaknesses.

 

I’ve had 6 seasons comparing rounds with CBs v MBs (3 seasons with Nike Split Cavities and 3 with MP4s) and the only measure that comes out is that my handicap has come down 2 shots. Is that down to the irons on their own? I doubt it, my putting is much better but is that because I’m hitting it closer? I couldn’t tell you, I don’t have the stats. I’m playing roughly the same amount, I haven’t had any lessons and I don’t have time to get to the range. The only measure is the handicap and it hasn’t gone up it’s gone down.

 

I’ll raise your Adam Scott, with Spieth’s AP2 8-iron on the 12th at Augusta ?

[revanant]

So, the lie angle on my CBs doesn’t match my MP-4s, which means I get to “test the forgiveness” a lot. : )

 

Long story short, I get a lot of distance drop off on bad strikes (20+ yards). But then, so did Rick Sheils when testing the M2. So, at least some irons touted as being forgiving don’t do what’s claimed on the box.

 

I’m the case of CB vs MP-4, tungsten in the toe doesn’t outweigh proper lie angle in my hands. A good strike is much better than a mishit with forgiveness—which makes sense.

 

It also makes sense to me to choose an iron that fits a window and maximizes ballspeed without sacrificing spin and descent on proper strikes. If it’s a CB or MB, I’ll play an iron that gives me good numbers. But I haven’t been able to find an iron that turns my bad strikes into decent shots. Even with the benefit of my sim, the benefit of my AP1s on a poor strike didn’t really show up in the data. It certainly didn’t show up on the course. And if I can’t measure it on my personal swing, then I don’t think it holds much value for me. Why play an AP1 for forgiveness purposes, if bad strikes appear to lose the same distance as a CB, and the benefits don’t seem to exist? Give me an iron with proper descent and ballspeed on good strikes, whatever the shape—my experience with blades has shown me that I can definitely make a good strike without a safety net in real world conditions.

[Tree Levino]

> @revanant said:

> So, the lie angle on my CBs doesn’t match my MP-4s, which means I get to “test the forgiveness” a lot. : )

>

> Long story short, I get a lot of distance drop off on bad strikes (20+ yards). But then, so did Rick Sheils when testing the M2. So, at least some irons touted as being forgiving don’t do what’s claimed on the box.

>

> I’m the case of CB vs MP-4, tungsten in the toe doesn’t outweigh proper lie angle in my hands. A good strike is much better than a mishit with forgiveness—which makes sense.

>

> It also makes sense to me to choose an iron that fits a window and maximizes ballspeed without sacrificing spin and descent on proper strikes. If it’s a CB or MB, I’ll play an iron that gives me good numbers. But I haven’t been able to find an iron that turns my bad strikes into decent shots. Even with the benefit of my sim, the benefit of my AP1s on a poor strike didn’t really show up in the data. It certainly didn’t show up on the course. And if I can’t measure it on my personal swing, then I don’t think it holds much value for me. Why play an AP1 for forgiveness purposes, if bad strikes appear to lose the same distance as a CB, and the benefits don’t seem to exist? Give me an iron with proper descent and ballspeed on good strikes, whatever the shape—my experience with blades has shown me that I can definitely make a good strike without a safety net in real world conditions.

 

Possible that you were never striking the AP1 properly due to lie angle/shaft. Further to that, if you still had them now you may find they worked a lot better given the amount of golf you've played in the mean time. Anyways, AP1 (fitted properly) do retain distance better than an MP4 when hit out the toe. This part of the argument is just silly. If you like your blades play them but please don't try to argue that GI irons have no forgiveness value.

[Nard_S]

> @balls_deep said:

> > @mahonie said:

> > > @balls_deep said:

> > > > @Nard_S said:

> > > > Most blade designs these days do have lower CG and strengthened loft.

> > >

> > > Most modern blades have a higher CG than the best loved Mizuno designs such as 14, 33, 32, 68, 69, 4, and 5.

> >

> > CG in MP4 is actually quite a bit lower than the Titleist CB (718) and as @Nard_S said, the lofts have got stronger. PW is 46* compared to 50* in my Wilson Staffs from the 1990s.

> >

> > With regard to toe hits not opening the blade of the CB, this morning my mate dunched an 8-iron 30 yards short and right of the green and put it down to a bad toe strike and the face opening. I don’t dispute that the same swing with the MP4 would’ve put the ball any closer but it would not have been fairly similar and the CB would not have saved any shots in that situation.

> >

> > Quite happy to end the discussion there...you stick to your very hard to hit CBs and I’ll stick to my hard to hit blades ;-)

>

> Wasn't comparing the CG to CBs. He said modern blades to older blades. My 716s have a CG lower than the equator of the ball and the sweet spot is moved slightly towards toe compared to the MP5s I had. Both great irons both very playable.

>

> Your example doesn't mean much as your mate probably fatted that shot quite a bit if he lost 30 yards. A comparable strike slightly toeside but not fat with both irons will result in better distance and line retention with toe weighting. You should tell your mate to get his lies looked as as Titleists are generally way too upright for me. This can result in the heel catching which will shut the face down and result in that high toe fat. A fat shot will go nowhere with any golf club. That said, slightly higher bounce does help (such as the iBlades I had). Giving an example of one shot is pointless. Over a season of comparison (and shots that aren't hit chubby), a noticeable difference will be there comparing a CB to a blade. If you want to talk about a single shot, how about Adam Scott - arguably the best ball striker on tour - slightly miss hitting his MB 4 iron and it going in the drink yesterday?

 

Modern to older difference is lower center sweet spot to higher heel side bias sweet spot. Hosel necks are shorter for sure. There are near zero high & linear muscle designs available today, there were a slew of them 20-30 years ago. Go watch Nick Faldo & Mizuno talking about their 2018 lineup. They compare Nick's old sticks to MP 18. What's clear is launch is higher and initial spin is lower on new. As they move to CB & GI stuff those proportions get bigger. I don't read much into vertical CG or MPF numbers. They are meaningful only in context with a bunch of other factors. COG in 3D and in relation to axial rotation of shaft is more relevant. What shaft and it's setup is too. There's OEM's that soft step DG as their standard retail setup. I don't seek irons prior to 1990, because not only are lofts weak (PW@50*) but what constitutes "S" should be "R"........for rebar. To say blades have not become more user friendly in the last 30 years is ludicrous yet they're talked about like it's 1977 and were all chasing Balata balls with Wilson Staff's.

[Titleist_PT23]

I just find it interesting that with a new driver, look at how many people rave about increased forgiveness, etc, etc ("when I miss all over the face, it still goes XXX yards") whereas with an iron many people believe "a bad swing is a bad swing and there's virtually no difference in clubhead design that will change anything."

 

And I'm not disagreeing that drivers have changed over the years and there are different desired attributes with this club/shot. My general point is whether the basic and player's model within any OEM's current offering are that different and/or does it change that much from year-to-year (and yes, sometimes it does but many times it doesn't) to the extent that a "good" and "bad" swing is so readily identifiable vs. with an iron "it makes no difference."

 

Or, people are willing to believe whatever they want to believe...

[dciccoritti]

> @agolf1 said:

> I just find it interesting that with a new driver, look at how many people rave about increased forgiveness, etc, etc ("when I miss all over the face, it still goes **** yards") whereas with an iron many people believe "a bad swing is a bad swing and there's virtually no difference in clubhead design that will change anything."

>

> And I'm not disagreeing that drivers have changed over the years and there are different desired attributes with this club/shot. My general point is whether the basic and player's model within any OEM's current offering are that different and/or does it change that much from year-to-year (and yes, sometimes it does but many times it doesn't) to the extent that a "good" and "bad" swing is so readily identifiable vs. with an iron "it makes no difference."

>

> Or, people are willing to believe whatever they want to believe...

 

 

[revanant]

So, here are a few photos I was able to take with my 716 CB and other irons I have in my apartment (and that my fiancé hates having around). : )

 

In order—irons are left to right.

 

Photo 1: MP-4 and CB. Personally, I don’t see any real difference on blade length. MP-4 topline is a bit thinner, but CB looks good.

 

Photo 2: MP-4, CB, T-Zoid Pro

 

Photo 3: MP-4, CB, MP-14. Oddly enough, the mp-14 has the most offset and thickest topline of the bunch. Great hitting, though, with a crazy low VCOG.

 

Photo 4: Hogan Redline, MP-4, CB

The Hogan has a noticeably smaller blade length, and similar topline to the CB.

 

———

I got to take the Redlines for a spin on the course yesterday. A little bit higher launching than my MP-4, but similar consistency in holding greens. Shot 48, with 3 GIR and 3 Pars (2 of the GIR and one par 5 where my iron shot was on the fringe 10 feet from pin). Had a 3 putt on one GIR for bogey. Had awful wedge play that added 4 strokes to my score easily—things like a shanked wedge from 30 yards. Putting was much better—had a few good lags. Still had 20 putts, though, so I haven’t cured my putting issues. 3 total 3 putts, 1 one putt.

[Titleist_PT23]

> @dciccoritti said:

> > @balls_deep said:

> > how about Adam Scott - arguably the best ball striker on tour - slightly miss hitting his MB 4 iron and it going in the drink yesterday?

>

> Not the best ball striker on tour and there have been thousands more balls hit the water with CB's than MB's. Thousands more short...long...left...right.

> > @agolf1 said:

> > I just find it interesting that with a new driver, look at how many people rave about increased forgiveness, etc, etc ("when I miss all over the face, it still goes **** yards") whereas with an iron many people believe "a bad swing is a bad swing and there's virtually no difference in clubhead design that will change anything."

> >

> > And I'm not disagreeing that drivers have changed over the years and there are different desired attributes with this club/shot. My general point is whether the basic and player's model within any OEM's current offering are that different and/or does it change that much from year-to-year (and yes, sometimes it does but many times it doesn't) to the extent that a "good" and "bad" swing is so readily identifiable vs. with an iron "it makes no difference."

> >

> > Or, people are willing to believe whatever they want to believe...

>

>

>

My general point is whether the basic and player's model **within any OEM's current offering** are that different and/or does it change that much **from year-to-year**

 

[Tree Levino]

> @revanant said:

> So, here are a few photos I was able to take with my 716 CB and other irons I have in my apartment (and that my fiancé hates having around). : )

>

> In order—irons are left to right.

>

> Photo 1: MP-4 and CB. Personally, I don’t see any real difference on blade length. MP-4 topline is a bit thinner, but CB looks good.

>

>

> Photo 2: MP-4, CB, T-Zoid Pro

>

>

> Photo 3: MP-4, CB, MP-14. Oddly enough, the mp-14 has the most offset and thickest topline of the bunch. Great hitting, though, with a crazy low VCOG.

>

>

> Photo 4: Hogan Redline, MP-4, CB

> The Hogan has a noticeably smaller blade length, and similar topline to the CB.

>

>

> ———

> I got to take the Redlines for a spin on the course yesterday. A little bit higher launching than my MP-4, but similar consistency in holding greens. Shot 48, with 3 GIR and 3 Pars (2 of the GIR and one par 5 where my iron shot was on the fringe 10 feet from pin). Had a 3 putt on one GIR for bogey. Had awful wedge play that added 4 strokes to my score easily—things like a shanked wedge from 30 yards. Putting was much better—had a few good lags. Still had 20 putts, though, so I haven’t cured my putting issues. 3 total 3 putts, 1 one putt.

 

May I ask what length of course you usually play is? I think it's funny that we all debate club heads but are likely playing vastly different courses in terms of type, length, and slope. That is not even taking into consideration the incredible differences in every person's golf swing.

[revanant]

> @balls_deep said:

> > @revanant said:

> > So, the lie angle on my CBs doesn’t match my MP-4s, which means I get to “test the forgiveness” a lot. : )

> >

> > Long story short, I get a lot of distance drop off on bad strikes (20+ yards). But then, so did Rick Sheils when testing the M2. So, at least some irons touted as being forgiving don’t do what’s claimed on the box.

> >

> > I’m the case of CB vs MP-4, tungsten in the toe doesn’t outweigh proper lie angle in my hands. A good strike is much better than a mishit with forgiveness—which makes sense.

> >

> > It also makes sense to me to choose an iron that fits a window and maximizes ballspeed without sacrificing spin and descent on proper strikes. If it’s a CB or MB, I’ll play an iron that gives me good numbers. But I haven’t been able to find an iron that turns my bad strikes into decent shots. Even with the benefit of my sim, the benefit of my AP1s on a poor strike didn’t really show up in the data. It certainly didn’t show up on the course. And if I can’t measure it on my personal swing, then I don’t think it holds much value for me. Why play an AP1 for forgiveness purposes, if bad strikes appear to lose the same distance as a CB, and the benefits don’t seem to exist? Give me an iron with proper descent and ballspeed on good strikes, whatever the shape—my experience with blades has shown me that I can definitely make a good strike without a safety net in real world conditions.

>

> Possible that you were never striking the AP1 properly due to lie angle/shaft. Further to that, if you still had them now you may find they worked a lot better given the amount of golf you've played in the mean time. Anyways, AP1 (fitted properly) do retain distance better than an MP4 when hit out the toe. This part of the argument is just silly. If you like your blades play them but please don't try to argue that GI irons have no forgiveness value.

 

I agree that, with what I’ve since discovered about my swing, I probably had the same issue with my stock AP1s that I now have with my CBs. My point is more just that it wasn’t as though the forgiveness built into the head was able to produce great or consistent results despite the lie issue-it had major drop-offs—in line with what Rick Shiels found with the M2 when he hit it around the face. Most mishits had big drop offs.

 

It might be that there’s just a limit to how much a club designer can do with an iron head vs. a driver head.

 

Personally, I think I can’t come to a full conclusion until I get my CBs tweaked so that it’s a level playing field. If they give me more ballspeed and I find them easier to hit, I’ll be delighted to put them in the bag. Truly.

 

That being said, if all we’re talking about is, say, a 5% improvement on mishits, I wouldn’t lose as much sleep over my iron choice as, say, a 30% improvement. There are folks out there who will say ,”Absolutely, give me the 5%,” but that’s not me. If it’s a small difference, I’m more inclined to not worry about the tech and pin my poor performance on my own pilot error (even if 1 out of 20 swing could have been a stroke better due to my equipment choice). In the same vein, I’m not testing my urethane balls in salt water and testing the CoG for core balance. I’d genuinely rather just play every ball I buy—because my past experience has said that if I do my job and put a good swing on a ball, the ball performs as expected. If someone tests the off balance balls and demonstrates the poor performance, though, I’ll be happy to change my mind and start testing golf balls as well.

[Tree Levino]

> @revanant said:

> > @balls_deep said:

> > > @revanant said:

> > > So, the lie angle on my CBs doesn’t match my MP-4s, which means I get to “test the forgiveness” a lot. : )

> > >

> > > Long story short, I get a lot of distance drop off on bad strikes (20+ yards). But then, so did Rick Sheils when testing the M2. So, at least some irons touted as being forgiving don’t do what’s claimed on the box.

> > >

> > > I’m the case of CB vs MP-4, tungsten in the toe doesn’t outweigh proper lie angle in my hands. A good strike is much better than a mishit with forgiveness—which makes sense.

> > >

> > > It also makes sense to me to choose an iron that fits a window and maximizes ballspeed without sacrificing spin and descent on proper strikes. If it’s a CB or MB, I’ll play an iron that gives me good numbers. But I haven’t been able to find an iron that turns my bad strikes into decent shots. Even with the benefit of my sim, the benefit of my AP1s on a poor strike didn’t really show up in the data. It certainly didn’t show up on the course. And if I can’t measure it on my personal swing, then I don’t think it holds much value for me. Why play an AP1 for forgiveness purposes, if bad strikes appear to lose the same distance as a CB, and the benefits don’t seem to exist? Give me an iron with proper descent and ballspeed on good strikes, whatever the shape—my experience with blades has shown me that I can definitely make a good strike without a safety net in real world conditions.

> >

> > Possible that you were never striking the AP1 properly due to lie angle/shaft. Further to that, if you still had them now you may find they worked a lot better given the amount of golf you've played in the mean time. Anyways, AP1 (fitted properly) do retain distance better than an MP4 when hit out the toe. This part of the argument is just silly. If you like your blades play them but please don't try to argue that GI irons have no forgiveness value.

>

> I agree that, with what I’ve since discovered about my swing, I probably had the same issue with my stock AP1s that I now have with my CBs. My point is more just that it wasn’t as though the forgiveness built into the head was able to produce great or consistent results despite the lie issue-it had major drop-offs—in line with what Rick Shiels found with the M2 when he hit it around the face. Most mishits had big drop offs.

>

> It might be that there’s just a limit to how much a club designer can do with an iron head vs. a driver head.

>

> Personally, I think I can’t come to a full conclusion until I get my CBs tweaked so that it’s a level playing field. If they give me more ballspeed and I find them easier to hit, I’ll be delighted to put them in the bag. Truly.

>

> That being said, if all we’re talking about is, say, a 5% improvement on mishits, I wouldn’t lose as much sleep over my iron choice as, say, a 30% improvement. There are folks out there who will say ,”Absolutely, give me the 5%,” but that’s not me. If it’s a small difference, I’m more inclined to not worry about the tech and pin my poor performance on my own pilot error (even if 1 out of 20 swing could have been a stroke better due to my equipment choice). In the same vein, I’m not testing my urethane balls in salt water and testing the CoG for core balance. I’d genuinely rather just play every ball I buy—because my past experience has said that if I do my job and put a good swing on a ball, the ball performs as expected. If someone tests the off balance balls and demonstrates the poor performance, though, I’ll be happy to change my mind and start testing golf balls as well.

 

Well yeah.. there we go. I think as you improve things change drastically. If that 5% is going to mean the difference between me shooting par for the first time or +1 I'm going to take it every single day of the week. Played two days ago and shot +2 on the front. The +2 was due to an errant 5 iron on a tough 210 par 3. I'm not going to say more forgiving clubs would've saved me, but I've hit GI long irons that might have made a slight difference - not sure. In any event I was under a tree and ended up making double. No birds on the front I was 8 pars and one double. Iron play was stellar otherwise. It's small things that make the difference as you improve. I feel the same regarding the ball. That is one of the hardest things to change for me. I know exactly how my ball is going to react to different shots - particularly short game. If I'm just messing around and drinking with buddies it's one thing, but if I'm playing a round I care about I always use the same ball.

[revanant]

> @balls_deep said:

> > @revanant said:

> > So, here are a few photos I was able to take with my 716 CB and other irons I have in my apartment (and that my fiancé hates having around). : )

> >

> > In order—irons are left to right.

> >

> > Photo 1: MP-4 and CB. Personally, I don’t see any real difference on blade length. MP-4 topline is a bit thinner, but CB looks good.

> >

> >

> > Photo 2: MP-4, CB, T-Zoid Pro

> >

> >

> > Photo 3: MP-4, CB, MP-14. Oddly enough, the mp-14 has the most offset and thickest topline of the bunch. Great hitting, though, with a crazy low VCOG.

> >

> >

> > Photo 4: Hogan Redline, MP-4, CB

> > The Hogan has a noticeably smaller blade length, and similar topline to the CB.

> >

> >

> > ———

> > I got to take the Redlines for a spin on the course yesterday. A little bit higher launching than my MP-4, but similar consistency in holding greens. Shot 48, with 3 GIR and 3 Pars (2 of the GIR and one par 5 where my iron shot was on the fringe 10 feet from pin). Had a 3 putt on one GIR for bogey. Had awful wedge play that added 4 strokes to my score easily—things like a shanked wedge from 30 yards. Putting was much better—had a few good lags. Still had 20 putts, though, so I haven’t cured my putting issues. 3 total 3 putts, 1 one putt.

>

> May I ask what length of course you usually play is? I think it's funny that we all debate club heads but are likely playing vastly different courses in terms of type, length, and slope. That is not even taking into consideration the incredible differences in every person's golf swing.

 

Sure, you guys can look it up. It’s Skyway Golf Course, in NJ. The slope on the course isn’t a slouch—depending on the tees I’m playing, it’s either in the 130s or bang on at 118. In other words, I either play the white(middle) or gold (second farthest) tees, depending on who I’m paired up with.

 

I played middle this week and last week. My appropriate tees are probably the ones I’m playing, as it lets me cover the 180 yard water carry on Hole #8 with my 3 wood and my max distance with driver is topping out at around about 220 (90-ish clubhead speed).

 

My GIR this week were with a 5 iron, 8 iron, and 9 iron, but I had the hogan blades in the bag. 8 iron went 120 into wind, and left me with about a 20 footer that I nailed the lag on. 5 iron hit middle of green, but pin was way in the back at around 165 yards when I thought it was at 150. Same hole i underestimated last week. The 9 iron is on an admittedly short hole—that one is undersized, but it’s a mini 9 hole in nyc area, so they do a lot with the space they have. There are 3 legit par 5s, 3 decent par 4s (including a long one at 450 yards), and 3 decent par 3s—the long one is over 220 from the tips.

 

The course is also very smart about having a links-style design, so that there’s a limit to how much you can overpower it with distance, between high wind and narrow fairways. You can lose balls in the rough, and there isn’t much of a first cut—an offline strike is likely to find water or get lost in heavy fescue.

 

I think the relevant question, though, is what am I hitting into greens. This week, it was the aforementioned clubs, along with the next few I’m about to describe. The best shot I had was actually a 6 iron out of a fairway bunker that I made great contact with and flew 130, despite bunker footing and hovering the club. My second best long iron shot was a 7 iron that I put on the fringe of the par five, that left me 10 feet and allowed me to lag putt and get the par. It came after a good tee shot and good 3 wood, so it was really a complete hole.

 

[revanant]

> @balls_deep said:

> > @revanant said:

> > > @balls_deep said:

> > > > @revanant said:

> > > > So, the lie angle on my CBs doesn’t match my MP-4s, which means I get to “test the forgiveness” a lot. : )

> > > >

> > > > Long story short, I get a lot of distance drop off on bad strikes (20+ yards). But then, so did Rick Sheils when testing the M2. So, at least some irons touted as being forgiving don’t do what’s claimed on the box.

> > > >

> > > > I’m the case of CB vs MP-4, tungsten in the toe doesn’t outweigh proper lie angle in my hands. A good strike is much better than a mishit with forgiveness—which makes sense.

> > > >

> > > > It also makes sense to me to choose an iron that fits a window and maximizes ballspeed without sacrificing spin and descent on proper strikes. If it’s a CB or MB, I’ll play an iron that gives me good numbers. But I haven’t been able to find an iron that turns my bad strikes into decent shots. Even with the benefit of my sim, the benefit of my AP1s on a poor strike didn’t really show up in the data. It certainly didn’t show up on the course. And if I can’t measure it on my personal swing, then I don’t think it holds much value for me. Why play an AP1 for forgiveness purposes, if bad strikes appear to lose the same distance as a CB, and the benefits don’t seem to exist? Give me an iron with proper descent and ballspeed on good strikes, whatever the shape—my experience with blades has shown me that I can definitely make a good strike without a safety net in real world conditions.

> > >

> > > Possible that you were never striking the AP1 properly due to lie angle/shaft. Further to that, if you still had them now you may find they worked a lot better given the amount of golf you've played in the mean time. Anyways, AP1 (fitted properly) do retain distance better than an MP4 when hit out the toe. This part of the argument is just silly. If you like your blades play them but please don't try to argue that GI irons have no forgiveness value.

> >

> > I agree that, with what I’ve since discovered about my swing, I probably had the same issue with my stock AP1s that I now have with my CBs. My point is more just that it wasn’t as though the forgiveness built into the head was able to produce great or consistent results despite the lie issue-it had major drop-offs—in line with what Rick Shiels found with the M2 when he hit it around the face. Most mishits had big drop offs.

> >

> > It might be that there’s just a limit to how much a club designer can do with an iron head vs. a driver head.

> >

> > Personally, I think I can’t come to a full conclusion until I get my CBs tweaked so that it’s a level playing field. If they give me more ballspeed and I find them easier to hit, I’ll be delighted to put them in the bag. Truly.

> >

> > That being said, if all we’re talking about is, say, a 5% improvement on mishits, I wouldn’t lose as much sleep over my iron choice as, say, a 30% improvement. There are folks out there who will say ,”Absolutely, give me the 5%,” but that’s not me. If it’s a small difference, I’m more inclined to not worry about the tech and pin my poor performance on my own pilot error (even if 1 out of 20 swing could have been a stroke better due to my equipment choice). In the same vein, I’m not testing my urethane balls in salt water and testing the CoG for core balance. I’d genuinely rather just play every ball I buy—because my past experience has said that if I do my job and put a good swing on a ball, the ball performs as expected. If someone tests the off balance balls and demonstrates the poor performance, though, I’ll be happy to change my mind and start testing golf balls as well.

>

> Well yeah.. there we go. I think as you improve things change drastically. If that 5% is going to mean the difference between me shooting par for the first time or +1 I'm going to take it every single day of the week. Played two days ago and shot +2 on the front. The +2 was due to an errant 5 iron on a tough 210 par 3. I'm not going to say more forgiving clubs would've saved me, but I've hit GI long irons that might have made a slight difference - not sure. In any event I was under a tree and ended up making double. No birds on the front I was 8 pars and one double. Iron play was stellar otherwise. It's small things that make the difference as you improve. I feel the same regarding the ball. That is one of the hardest things to change for me. I know exactly how my ball is going to react to different shots - particularly short game. If I'm just messing around and drinking with buddies it's one thing, but if I'm playing a round I care about I always use the same ball.

 

Totally, I get it and respect it. For me, I’m still forming my game, so I’m willing to accept “good enough.”

 

Unrelated, I do think there is a real benefit for having put time in with blades when it comes to my confidence level of playing golf. Should I have hit a 6 iron out of a bunker? Probably a low % shot, on a pure risk reward analysis. But the round I played on saturday had zero stakes at play. Even better, for the rest of my life and no matter what brand and make of iron I wind up playing, I can now grab a 6 iron out of my bag and think “I can nail this shot. After all, I once hit a Hogan blade from 1988 out of a bunker.” I think it’s important to have those sorts of experiences to build up the mental side of my game.

[BiggErn]

> @dciccoritti said:

> > @balls_deep said:

> > how about Adam Scott - arguably the best ball striker on tour - slightly miss hitting his MB 4 iron and it going in the drink yesterday?

>

> Not the best ball striker on tour and there have been thousands more balls hit the water with CB's than MB's. Thousands more short...long...left...right.

> > @agolf1 said:

> > I just find it interesting that with a new driver, look at how many people rave about increased forgiveness, etc, etc ("when I miss all over the face, it still goes **** yards") whereas with an iron many people believe "a bad swing is a bad swing and there's virtually no difference in clubhead design that will change anything."

> >

> > And I'm not disagreeing that drivers have changed over the years and there are different desired attributes with this club/shot. My general point is whether the basic and player's model within any OEM's current offering are that different and/or does it change that much from year-to-year (and yes, sometimes it does but many times it doesn't) to the extent that a "good" and "bad" swing is so readily identifiable vs. with an iron "it makes no difference."

> >

> > Or, people are willing to believe whatever they want to believe...

>

>

>

 

That’s a terrible comparison. Of course more balls have been hit into whatever hazard with a CB since that’s what the vast majority of golfers, to include all touring pros, play with.