My Experience Gaming Blades as a Mid-High Handicapper

[revanant]

> @agolf1 said:

> > @revanant said:

> > > @chisag said:

> > > ... Here are 2 examples. I have played Z Forged my last couple rounds. I had 180 to a pin tucked over a bunker. I hit my 5 iron 185 and it was 171 to clear the bunker. Good shot is a little long and a bad shot is still on the green. I hit it jut a little thin, a shot that would be much better with my P760's, but it hit and stuck in the bank of the bunker because it came out a little low with less spin and just missed clearing the bunker. Later in the round I hit a knockdown into a good 15 mph wind. 149 and hit a 6 iron a little on the toe. Shot came out a little low and turning right. This hole has a deep bunker with very thick rough surrounding it making it much better to be in the sand but my shot buried in the grass. Again, my P760 would be on the fringe. I am sure I missed the dead center on several more shots but none were any better or worse than my P760's.

> > >

> > > ... I think many MB aficionado's would be pretty happy with those results. But for me, it is those one or two shots a round that may or may not make a difference in my score. The other irony is the P760's have a smaller profile at address than the Z Forged MB's and I like their look. The P760's feel almost as good in the pw-8 and darned close in the 7-4 irons. So for me, the choice is easy but the Z Forged are really nice and I get why some play them, especially of score is not your #1 goal.

> > So, to this point, it’s part of the reason why I think having the MP-4s in the bag is helpful.

> >

> > I can put a good strike on the ball and hit my target, and it’s important for me to develop a consistent pre-shot routine and confidence so that my best swing comes out. When everything comes together, it’s really a big confidence boost.

> >

> > If I miss or mess up, it’s also ok. I’m in the learning phase. My game is incomplete and I need to take my lumps. If my ball comes up short and I wind up in the sand or water, it’s a good lesson for me. Normally, the culprit is either having chosen too dangerous or aggressive of a target for me, or having taken the wrong club. With a pin near a bunker or an edge, my smarter play should probably be to aim for the middle of the green and work on my lag putting.

> >

> > But, since my rounds are basically practice, and I can use all sorts of on course practice, I’m not sure I’m doing myself any favors if I get a thin mishit and dodge a bunker. Since I’m still pretty fresh, I can probably use both the bunker practice and the lesson about having thinned my iron and whatever caused it—whether it was uneven lie, poor pre-shot routine, bad weight shift, etc.

> This is all just justifying what you want to do. I'm entirely fine with you hitting your MP-4s. There may or may not be a benefit from another type of club, and if there is the amount would likely be fairly small anyways. And whatever choice you make will have little impact on where you are 1 year, 2, years, or 5 years from now.

>

> But,

> a) I would guess that "normally" or as in most of the time, your bad shots are not due to simply a bad line or pulling the wrong club. You are not missing 6 or 9 greens on average due to perfect swings with one of the faults above. You are missing (I'd bet the majority of them) with bad swings (either contact or face/path issues).

> b) your rounds are still rounds. If you want to improve, you should still strive to see some progress in shooting lower scores when you play. Saying that you are happy ending up in bad spots because it's a lesson is just hilarious. You can learn and practice all of the good things like routine and confidence with any club. You can also go to the practice green, drop 20 balls, and pretend you just hit your approach shots there.

>

> Again, I'm saying nothing about whether a different iron head would put you in a different spot. I'm just saying that your perspective and rationale make absolutely no sense. You could go buy some left-handed clubs, flip them around, give it a whack, and be happy dribbling it around the course all day in the name of practice too (I bet you'll be in all kinds of bunkers, trees, and native areas with this strategy). Would anyone actually suggest that?

>

> Every golfer, regardless of ability, screws up when they play. And when we are trying something new there is no need to beat ourselves up excessively, But I think you still need to take the score semi-seriously when you play. It is the most important measure in evaluating our improvement.

 

That being said, I do appreciate the feedback. My point is more about outlook.

 

I’m always trying to do well when I play. But I don’t a lot of on-course time—just 9 holes in a week, usually.

 

I’m not trying to aim into a bunker for the sake of practice. I’m playing a real round and trying to execute good golf shots to make par or bogey.

 

But if I mishit my iron, I honestly think there’s value from a growth perspective to seeing the drop off and having to now play my foul ball.

 

I look at it this way—my scores that I earn now don’t have a lot of consequence. My game is incomplete—I can rack up a lot of strokes with unnecessary 3 putts or poor wedge play that a better player wouldn’t have. I don’t take those strokes out of my score—but I also don’t get down on myself for having those mistakes. I think they’ll fade away in time.

 

So, knowing that my game is incomplete and I make beginner mistakes at times, I’d rather bank the experience now, so that I can draw on it when I’m a better player two years from now. If my mishit MB carries a bunker and lands on a green, I know that I took enough club and built in enough leeway to allow for an imperfect strike. If I wind up in the sand, then I know that I needed a little more if it was a small miss, or that I took too aggressive of a line. If I cover an extra few yard with a CB and still land a green, I’m just cheating myself out of a lesson on club selection. I’m also missing out on live-round experience in a green side bunker.

 

I’m not actively looking to be in a bunker during a round. I try to minimize it. But I don’t get a lot of bunker practice—there’s no practice green at my course, and I’m in NYC, so golf options are a bit limited. Knowing that, if I botch an iron shot and wind up in the sand, I think it’s important to take my licks and play those shots. That way, when they happen to me in the future, I’ll be more experienced. My score and handicap might be higher now, but I’m not going to look back in three years and be proud that I shot a 47 on a random 9 hole round way back when. I may need the experience I got about not taking too aggressive of a line over a bunker, or in how to get out of a greenside bunker cleanly.

[JStang]

I recently picked up a nice set of MP-5's and played 18 on Friday and a scramble on Saturday. Feedback on off center hits was the glaring difference between my previous set which were 718 CB's. Not a single shot came up shorter than I would have expected them to based on feedback. The biggest surprise was that the most pure shots I hit all day were with 4 and 5 iron. Had I not had so many damn penalty shots (only one to the irons fault) I would have been in the 70's on my first trip out.

[MelloYello]

> @revanant said:

> But if I mishit my iron, I honestly think there’s value from a growth perspective to seeing the drop off and having to now play my foul ball.

 

This is the essence of the blade attitude right here.

 

Everyone hits bad shots and has to play their foul balls. Blades only make those foul balls feel all the worse in your hands. It's not like a toe'd shot feels good coming off my Titleist CBs. Plus, I honestly doubt the ball is landing much further off from it's target. It's a slight advantage if it's there at all.

 

The guy who is well-fit to a blade is the kind of player that can take a very small amount of feedback and implement it into his very next shot. If he slightly thins one, the next one is pure.

 

Guys who hit <50% of GIR are not masters of their swings.

 

I'll be the first to say that about myself. I'm a single digit handicap and I too have to play my foul balls. I get more feedback than I can use from a CB.

 

I'm not trying to be snarky or pick on anyone. I have respect for all golfers and have played blades. I understand the allure and promote low handicaps experimenting with them. Just seems to me it's better to put the weird fascination behind you as early as possible. There's nothing mystical about a blade. It feels different. Some people like that. Some don't care.

 

Try 'em and move on I say. But I don't think they're helping anyone who's not below a scratch. All the useful feedback they supposedly provide can be gotten from a player's CB that'll probably help in a few ways the blade won't.

 

[dciccoritti]

> @balls_deep said:

>

 

Love this video. Glad you posted it and proved my point.

 

So let's see what we know.

 

1. Michael has approximately a 14 yard gap between irons (Wilson Staff Model in particular)

2. JPX 850 6 iron is actually 28 degrees

3. MP4 (not MP5) 6 iron is actually 30 degrees

4. The JPX 850 should be approximately 7 yards longer on a similar good strikes (on average)

5. The JPX 850 mishit is 7 yards longer than the MP4 mishit

 

Conclusion is they both lost the exact same yardage on a similar toe strike. No gain for the CB. No loss for the MB.

 

Like I said, thanks for posting that ?

[Titleist_PT23]

> @revanant said:

> That being said, I do appreciate the feedback. My point is more about outlook.

>

> I’m always trying to do well when I play. But I don’t a lot of on-course time—just 9 holes in a week, usually.

>

> I’m not trying to aim into a bunker for the sake of practice. I’m playing a real round and trying to execute good golf shots to make par or bogey.

>

> But if I mishit my iron, I honestly think there’s value from a growth perspective to seeing the drop off and having to now play my foul ball.

>

> I look at it this way—my scores that I earn now don’t have a lot of consequence. My game is incomplete—I can rack up a lot of strokes with unnecessary 3 putts or poor wedge play that a better player wouldn’t have. I don’t take those strokes out of my score—but I also don’t get down on myself for having those mistakes. I think they’ll fade away in time.

>

> So, knowing that my game is incomplete and I make beginner mistakes at times, I’d rather bank the experience now, so that I can draw on it when I’m a better player two years from now. If my mishit MB carries a bunker and lands on a green, I know that I took enough club and built in enough leeway to allow for an imperfect strike. If I wind up in the sand, then I know that I needed a little more if it was a small miss, or that I took too aggressive of a line. If I cover an extra few yard with a CB and still land a green, I’m just cheating myself out of a lesson on club selection. I’m also missing out on live-round experience in a green side bunker.

>

> I’m not actively looking to be in a bunker during a round. I try to minimize it. But I don’t get a lot of bunker practice—there’s no practice green at my course, and I’m in NYC, so golf options are a bit limited. Knowing that, if I botch an iron shot and wind up in the sand, I think it’s important to take my licks and play those shots. That way, when they happen to me in the future, I’ll be more experienced. My score and handicap might be higher now, but I’m not going to look back in three years and be proud that I shot a 47 on a random 9 hole round way back when. I may need the experience I got about not taking too aggressive of a line over a bunker, or in how to get out of a greenside bunker cleanly.

All of these are good experience and aid in development. But when listed as to "why the MP-4s are better for me" (vs a shot with another club which is assumed to not be in the bunker - this was the scenario in the original post that you replied to whether it's true or not) I just don't follow it. We'd still mess up frequently enough with the other club to get plenty of practice and our score would be better (if the other club actually carried the bunker, which again it may or may not). Again, I am not attacking the notion that someone can actually hit the blades better. I am questioning why we knowingly want worse outcomes today when we are trying to improve. And of course someone can reply with "it'll make you better in the long-run." Sure, it could but one's own dedication and desire is going to be the biggest factor here. I truly struggle to see how any club itself (either way) is changing someone's dedication and desire in the long-run.

 

And you are correct that my assessment of missing 6 of 9 greens due to swing only is not entirely correct. Some of these situations are due to bad tee shots, etc. But I would ask you to really evaluate your shots on the course. On your full swings (or irons only I guess), does the ball start on the line you intended and is the ball flight what you envisioned more than half the time? We can have good contact but if it's a pull 10 yards left it's still a bad swing. I can only answer for myself but I definitely miss more often than not on my roughly 36 full swings per round (driver included). And I'm not saying just judge whether I miss the fairyway or green; I could run through the fairway or be long/short of the green for some other reason. It's whether the line, contact, and ball flight was exactly what I was looking for. And I can tell you that it's not my putting / short game that's saving everything. Those parts are entirely average for my ability.

[Tree Levino]

> @JStang said:

> I recently picked up a nice set of MP-5's and played 18 on Friday and a scramble on Saturday. Feedback on off center hits was the glaring difference between my previous set which were 718 CB's. Not a single shot came up shorter than I would have expected them to based on feedback. The biggest surprise was that the most pure shots I hit all day were with 4 and 5 iron. Had I not had so many **** penalty shots (only one to the irons fault) I would have been in the 70's on my first trip out.

 

Maybe the 718 are different but I notice no difference whatsoever in feedback between my 716 CB and the MP5 I just had. I can tell exactly where I've hit it. The MP5 are a fantastic iron. If I had the set PW and didn't have to spend money getting one I would have kept them. I hit many good 4 irons with that set.

[Tree Levino]

> @revanant said:

> > @agolf1 said:

> > > @revanant said:

> > > > @chisag said:

> > > > ... Here are 2 examples. I have played Z Forged my last couple rounds. I had 180 to a pin tucked over a bunker. I hit my 5 iron 185 and it was 171 to clear the bunker. Good shot is a little long and a bad shot is still on the green. I hit it jut a little thin, a shot that would be much better with my P760's, but it hit and stuck in the bank of the bunker because it came out a little low with less spin and just missed clearing the bunker. Later in the round I hit a knockdown into a good 15 mph wind. 149 and hit a 6 iron a little on the toe. Shot came out a little low and turning right. This hole has a deep bunker with very thick rough surrounding it making it much better to be in the sand but my shot buried in the grass. Again, my P760 would be on the fringe. I am sure I missed the dead center on several more shots but none were any better or worse than my P760's.

> > > >

> > > > ... I think many MB aficionado's would be pretty happy with those results. But for me, it is those one or two shots a round that may or may not make a difference in my score. The other irony is the P760's have a smaller profile at address than the Z Forged MB's and I like their look. The P760's feel almost as good in the pw-8 and darned close in the 7-4 irons. So for me, the choice is easy but the Z Forged are really nice and I get why some play them, especially of score is not your #1 goal.

> > > So, to this point, it’s part of the reason why I think having the MP-4s in the bag is helpful.

> > >

> > > I can put a good strike on the ball and hit my target, and it’s important for me to develop a consistent pre-shot routine and confidence so that my best swing comes out. When everything comes together, it’s really a big confidence boost.

> > >

> > > If I miss or mess up, it’s also ok. I’m in the learning phase. My game is incomplete and I need to take my lumps. If my ball comes up short and I wind up in the sand or water, it’s a good lesson for me. Normally, the culprit is either having chosen too dangerous or aggressive of a target for me, or having taken the wrong club. With a pin near a bunker or an edge, my smarter play should probably be to aim for the middle of the green and work on my lag putting.

> > >

> > > But, since my rounds are basically practice, and I can use all sorts of on course practice, I’m not sure I’m doing myself any favors if I get a thin mishit and dodge a bunker. Since I’m still pretty fresh, I can probably use both the bunker practice and the lesson about having thinned my iron and whatever caused it—whether it was uneven lie, poor pre-shot routine, bad weight shift, etc.

> > This is all just justifying what you want to do. I'm entirely fine with you hitting your MP-4s. There may or may not be a benefit from another type of club, and if there is the amount would likely be fairly small anyways. And whatever choice you make will have little impact on where you are 1 year, 2, years, or 5 years from now.

> >

> > But,

> > a) I would guess that "normally" or as in most of the time, your bad shots are not due to simply a bad line or pulling the wrong club. You are not missing 6 or 9 greens on average due to perfect swings with one of the faults above. You are missing (I'd bet the majority of them) with bad swings (either contact or face/path issues).

> > b) your rounds are still rounds. If you want to improve, you should still strive to see some progress in shooting lower scores when you play. Saying that you are happy ending up in bad spots because it's a lesson is just hilarious. You can learn and practice all of the good things like routine and confidence with any club. You can also go to the practice green, drop 20 balls, and pretend you just hit your approach shots there.

> >

> > Again, I'm saying nothing about whether a different iron head would put you in a different spot. I'm just saying that your perspective and rationale make absolutely no sense. You could go buy some left-handed clubs, flip them around, give it a whack, and be happy dribbling it around the course all day in the name of practice too (I bet you'll be in all kinds of bunkers, trees, and native areas with this strategy). Would anyone actually suggest that?

> >

> > Every golfer, regardless of ability, screws up when they play. And when we are trying something new there is no need to beat ourselves up excessively, But I think you still need to take the score semi-seriously when you play. It is the most important measure in evaluating our improvement.

>

> That being said, I do appreciate the feedback. My point is more about outlook.

>

> I’m always trying to do well when I play. But I don’t a lot of on-course time—just 9 holes in a week, usually.

>

> I’m not trying to aim into a bunker for the sake of practice. I’m playing a real round and trying to execute good golf shots to make par or bogey.

>

> But if I mishit my iron, I honestly think there’s value from a growth perspective to seeing the drop off and having to now play my foul ball.

>

> I look at it this way—my scores that I earn now don’t have a lot of consequence. My game is incomplete—I can rack up a lot of strokes with unnecessary 3 putts or poor wedge play that a better player wouldn’t have. I don’t take those strokes out of my score—but I also don’t get down on myself for having those mistakes. I think they’ll fade away in time.

>

> So, knowing that my game is incomplete and I make beginner mistakes at times, I’d rather bank the experience now, so that I can draw on it when I’m a better player two years from now. If my mishit MB carries a bunker and lands on a green, I know that I took enough club and built in enough leeway to allow for an imperfect strike. If I wind up in the sand, then I know that I needed a little more if it was a small miss, or that I took too aggressive of a line. If I cover an extra few yard with a CB and still land a green, I’m just cheating myself out of a lesson on club selection. I’m also missing out on live-round experience in a green side bunker.

>

> I’m not actively looking to be in a bunker during a round. I try to minimize it. But I don’t get a lot of bunker practice—there’s no practice green at my course, and I’m in NYC, so golf options are a bit limited. Knowing that, if I botch an iron shot and wind up in the sand, I think it’s important to take my licks and play those shots. That way, when they happen to me in the future, I’ll be more experienced. My score and handicap might be higher now, but I’m not going to look back in three years and be proud that I shot a 47 on a random 9 hole round way back when. I may need the experience I got about not taking too aggressive of a line over a bunker, or in how to get out of a greenside bunker cleanly.

 

Using a CB is not cheating yourself. Again, if that was the case we should have no help in any of our other clubs. You should be using a 2 iron instead of your 5 wood if you want to learn as you say. That extra launch and forgiveness is cheating yourself. Best go thin that 2 iron 70 yards down the fairway so you can play better golf in 5 years.

[Titleist_PT23]

> @dciccoritti said:

> > @agolf1 said:

> > > @revanant said:

> > > > @chisag said:

> > > > ... Here are 2 examples. I have played Z Forged my last couple rounds. I had 180 to a pin tucked over a bunker. I hit my 5 iron 185 and it was 171 to clear the bunker. Good shot is a little long and a bad shot is still on the green. I hit it jut a little thin, a shot that would be much better with my P760's, but it hit and stuck in the bank of the bunker because it came out a little low with less spin and just missed clearing the bunker. Later in the round I hit a knockdown into a good 15 mph wind. 149 and hit a 6 iron a little on the toe. Shot came out a little low and turning right. This hole has a deep bunker with very thick rough surrounding it making it much better to be in the sand but my shot buried in the grass. Again, my P760 would be on the fringe. I am sure I missed the dead center on several more shots but none were any better or worse than my P760's.

> > > >

> > > > ... I think many MB aficionado's would be pretty happy with those results. But for me, it is those one or two shots a round that may or may not make a difference in my score. The other irony is the P760's have a smaller profile at address than the Z Forged MB's and I like their look. The P760's feel almost as good in the pw-8 and darned close in the 7-4 irons. So for me, the choice is easy but the Z Forged are really nice and I get why some play them, especially of score is not your #1 goal.

> > > So, to this point, it’s part of the reason why I think having the MP-4s in the bag is helpful.

> > >

> > > I can put a good strike on the ball and hit my target, and it’s important for me to develop a consistent pre-shot routine and confidence so that my best swing comes out. When everything comes together, it’s really a big confidence boost.

> > >

> > > If I miss or mess up, it’s also ok. I’m in the learning phase. My game is incomplete and I need to take my lumps. If my ball comes up short and I wind up in the sand or water, it’s a good lesson for me. Normally, the culprit is either having chosen too dangerous or aggressive of a target for me, or having taken the wrong club. With a pin near a bunker or an edge, my smarter play should probably be to aim for the middle of the green and work on my lag putting.

> > >

> > > But, since my rounds are basically practice, and I can use all sorts of on course practice, I’m not sure I’m doing myself any favors if I get a thin mishit and dodge a bunker. Since I’m still pretty fresh, I can probably use both the bunker practice and the lesson about having thinned my iron and whatever caused it—whether it was uneven lie, poor pre-shot routine, bad weight shift, etc.

> > This is all just justifying what you want to do. I'm entirely fine with you hitting your MP-4s. There may or may not be a benefit from another type of club, and if there is the amount would likely be fairly small anyways. And whatever choice you make will have little impact on where you are 1 year, 2, years, or 5 years from now.

> >

> > But,

> > a) I would guess that "normally" or as in most of the time, your bad shots are not due to simply a bad line or pulling the wrong club. You are not missing 6 or 9 greens on average due to perfect swings with one of the faults above. You are missing (I'd bet the majority of them) with bad swings (either contact or face/path issues).

> > b) your rounds are still rounds. If you want to improve, you should still strive to see some progress in shooting lower scores when you play. Saying that you are happy ending up in bad spots because it's a lesson is just hilarious. You can learn and practice all of the good things like routine and confidence with any club. You can also go to the practice green, drop 20 balls, and pretend you just hit your approach shots there.

> >

> > Again, I'm saying nothing about whether a different iron head would put you in a different spot. I'm just saying that your perspective and rationale make absolutely no sense. You could go buy some left-handed clubs, flip them around, give it a whack, and be happy dribbling it around the course all day in the name of practice too (I bet you'll be in all kinds of bunkers, trees, and native areas with this strategy). Would anyone actually suggest that?

> >

> > Every golfer, regardless of ability, screws up when they play. And when we are trying something new there is no need to beat ourselves up excessively, But I think you still need to take the score semi-seriously when you play. It is the most important measure in evaluating our improvement.

>

> This makes zero sense and frankly I'm not even sure what your suggesting or saying? Are you suggesting that he doesn't care about his score? Are you suggesting he doesn't care about development? Are suggesting that he's doing something that will hinder his score or development down the road?

>

> His "perspective and rational" makes perfect sense to me because it's the exact perspective and rational I adopted 2.5 years ago and my complete game and scoring is unrecognizable to what it use to be. And in those 2.5 years I easily didn't score about 50 rounds. Just worked on gaining knowledge and learning to execute that knowledge. Don't get me wrong, I went the G30 route for 2 years before that and they did NOTHING for me. Also tried the 588 Altitude route before the G30's and NOTHING changed. But I guess we're all different...or is that the point that eludes you and a few others...the fact that we're not all like you. I know that's a tough concept to grasp for some for those with simple minds that feel the need to put everything into tidy little boxes. You'll pardon me if I don't fit into your delusional and preconceived notions of how YOU think things should be.

>

> @revanat Yes you heard that right. At least 50 or more rounds where I didn't score my round. Just worked on becoming a better ball striker and did that by acquiring knowledge and learning to execute that knowledge. Also learning quite a bit about myself and my natural instincts that worked tremendously well in hockey and soccer yet seemed to be a detriment to my golf swing. You may not realize this yet but you're much longer than you think. Better mechanics will get you much better height, distance and accuracy. Don't ever settle until you figure it out. Might take a long time but when you do, it will all be worth it. Knowledge is everything. Will and determination is the machete that cuts through the bushes and gets you there. Don't settle ?

You in Post #1652: And let's not criticize what inspires us to play better or the little nuances that work for us but not might work for others.

 

You now: you can call us simple minded and delusional because what we say doesn't match with what you think.

[dciccoritti]

> @agolf1 said:

> > @dciccoritti said:

> > > @agolf1 said:

> > > > @revanant said:

> > > > > @chisag said:

> > > > > ... Here are 2 examples. I have played Z Forged my last couple rounds. I had 180 to a pin tucked over a bunker. I hit my 5 iron 185 and it was 171 to clear the bunker. Good shot is a little long and a bad shot is still on the green. I hit it jut a little thin, a shot that would be much better with my P760's, but it hit and stuck in the bank of the bunker because it came out a little low with less spin and just missed clearing the bunker. Later in the round I hit a knockdown into a good 15 mph wind. 149 and hit a 6 iron a little on the toe. Shot came out a little low and turning right. This hole has a deep bunker with very thick rough surrounding it making it much better to be in the sand but my shot buried in the grass. Again, my P760 would be on the fringe. I am sure I missed the dead center on several more shots but none were any better or worse than my P760's.

> > > > >

> > > > > ... I think many MB aficionado's would be pretty happy with those results. But for me, it is those one or two shots a round that may or may not make a difference in my score. The other irony is the P760's have a smaller profile at address than the Z Forged MB's and I like their look. The P760's feel almost as good in the pw-8 and darned close in the 7-4 irons. So for me, the choice is easy but the Z Forged are really nice and I get why some play them, especially of score is not your #1 goal.

> > > > So, to this point, it’s part of the reason why I think having the MP-4s in the bag is helpful.

> > > >

> > > > I can put a good strike on the ball and hit my target, and it’s important for me to develop a consistent pre-shot routine and confidence so that my best swing comes out. When everything comes together, it’s really a big confidence boost.

> > > >

> > > > If I miss or mess up, it’s also ok. I’m in the learning phase. My game is incomplete and I need to take my lumps. If my ball comes up short and I wind up in the sand or water, it’s a good lesson for me. Normally, the culprit is either having chosen too dangerous or aggressive of a target for me, or having taken the wrong club. With a pin near a bunker or an edge, my smarter play should probably be to aim for the middle of the green and work on my lag putting.

> > > >

> > > > But, since my rounds are basically practice, and I can use all sorts of on course practice, I’m not sure I’m doing myself any favors if I get a thin mishit and dodge a bunker. Since I’m still pretty fresh, I can probably use both the bunker practice and the lesson about having thinned my iron and whatever caused it—whether it was uneven lie, poor pre-shot routine, bad weight shift, etc.

> > > This is all just justifying what you want to do. I'm entirely fine with you hitting your MP-4s. There may or may not be a benefit from another type of club, and if there is the amount would likely be fairly small anyways. And whatever choice you make will have little impact on where you are 1 year, 2, years, or 5 years from now.

> > >

> > > But,

> > > a) I would guess that "normally" or as in most of the time, your bad shots are not due to simply a bad line or pulling the wrong club. You are not missing 6 or 9 greens on average due to perfect swings with one of the faults above. You are missing (I'd bet the majority of them) with bad swings (either contact or face/path issues).

> > > b) your rounds are still rounds. If you want to improve, you should still strive to see some progress in shooting lower scores when you play. Saying that you are happy ending up in bad spots because it's a lesson is just hilarious. You can learn and practice all of the good things like routine and confidence with any club. You can also go to the practice green, drop 20 balls, and pretend you just hit your approach shots there.

> > >

> > > Again, I'm saying nothing about whether a different iron head would put you in a different spot. I'm just saying that your perspective and rationale make absolutely no sense. You could go buy some left-handed clubs, flip them around, give it a whack, and be happy dribbling it around the course all day in the name of practice too (I bet you'll be in all kinds of bunkers, trees, and native areas with this strategy). Would anyone actually suggest that?

> > >

> > > Every golfer, regardless of ability, screws up when they play. And when we are trying something new there is no need to beat ourselves up excessively, But I think you still need to take the score semi-seriously when you play. It is the most important measure in evaluating our improvement.

> >

> > This makes zero sense and frankly I'm not even sure what your suggesting or saying? Are you suggesting that he doesn't care about his score? Are you suggesting he doesn't care about development? Are suggesting that he's doing something that will hinder his score or development down the road?

> >

> > His "perspective and rational" makes perfect sense to me because it's the exact perspective and rational I adopted 2.5 years ago and my complete game and scoring is unrecognizable to what it use to be. And in those 2.5 years I easily didn't score about 50 rounds. Just worked on gaining knowledge and learning to execute that knowledge. Don't get me wrong, I went the G30 route for 2 years before that and they did NOTHING for me. Also tried the 588 Altitude route before the G30's and NOTHING changed. But I guess we're all different...or is that the point that eludes you and a few others...the fact that we're not all like you. I know that's a tough concept to grasp for some for those with simple minds that feel the need to put everything into tidy little boxes. You'll pardon me if I don't fit into your delusional and preconceived notions of how YOU think things should be.

> >

> > @revanat Yes you heard that right. At least 50 or more rounds where I didn't score my round. Just worked on becoming a better ball striker and did that by acquiring knowledge and learning to execute that knowledge. Also learning quite a bit about myself and my natural instincts that worked tremendously well in hockey and soccer yet seemed to be a detriment to my golf swing. You may not realize this yet but you're much longer than you think. Better mechanics will get you much better height, distance and accuracy. Don't ever settle until you figure it out. Might take a long time but when you do, it will all be worth it. Knowledge is everything. Will and determination is the machete that cuts through the bushes and gets you there. Don't settle ?

> You in Post #1652: And let's not criticize what inspires us to play better or the little nuances that work for us but not might work for others.

>

> You now: you can call us simple minded and delusional because what we say doesn't match with what you think.

 

Again you make no sense. That's exactly what I said. It was your post that insinuated that not scoring or worrying about score in a development process is "not the way to go about it". You continually prove my point. ? And again, you and a few others continually avoid discussing points of interest that could further this discussion.

 

“Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened.” - Winston Churchill

 

[Titleist_PT23]

> @dciccoritti said:

> > @agolf1 said:

> > > @dciccoritti said:

> > > > @agolf1 said:

> > > > > @revanant said:

> > > > > > @chisag said:

> > > > > > ... Here are 2 examples. I have played Z Forged my last couple rounds. I had 180 to a pin tucked over a bunker. I hit my 5 iron 185 and it was 171 to clear the bunker. Good shot is a little long and a bad shot is still on the green. I hit it jut a little thin, a shot that would be much better with my P760's, but it hit and stuck in the bank of the bunker because it came out a little low with less spin and just missed clearing the bunker. Later in the round I hit a knockdown into a good 15 mph wind. 149 and hit a 6 iron a little on the toe. Shot came out a little low and turning right. This hole has a deep bunker with very thick rough surrounding it making it much better to be in the sand but my shot buried in the grass. Again, my P760 would be on the fringe. I am sure I missed the dead center on several more shots but none were any better or worse than my P760's.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > ... I think many MB aficionado's would be pretty happy with those results. But for me, it is those one or two shots a round that may or may not make a difference in my score. The other irony is the P760's have a smaller profile at address than the Z Forged MB's and I like their look. The P760's feel almost as good in the pw-8 and darned close in the 7-4 irons. So for me, the choice is easy but the Z Forged are really nice and I get why some play them, especially of score is not your #1 goal.

> > > > > So, to this point, it’s part of the reason why I think having the MP-4s in the bag is helpful.

> > > > >

> > > > > I can put a good strike on the ball and hit my target, and it’s important for me to develop a consistent pre-shot routine and confidence so that my best swing comes out. When everything comes together, it’s really a big confidence boost.

> > > > >

> > > > > If I miss or mess up, it’s also ok. I’m in the learning phase. My game is incomplete and I need to take my lumps. If my ball comes up short and I wind up in the sand or water, it’s a good lesson for me. Normally, the culprit is either having chosen too dangerous or aggressive of a target for me, or having taken the wrong club. With a pin near a bunker or an edge, my smarter play should probably be to aim for the middle of the green and work on my lag putting.

> > > > >

> > > > > But, since my rounds are basically practice, and I can use all sorts of on course practice, I’m not sure I’m doing myself any favors if I get a thin mishit and dodge a bunker. Since I’m still pretty fresh, I can probably use both the bunker practice and the lesson about having thinned my iron and whatever caused it—whether it was uneven lie, poor pre-shot routine, bad weight shift, etc.

> > > > This is all just justifying what you want to do. I'm entirely fine with you hitting your MP-4s. There may or may not be a benefit from another type of club, and if there is the amount would likely be fairly small anyways. And whatever choice you make will have little impact on where you are 1 year, 2, years, or 5 years from now.

> > > >

> > > > But,

> > > > a) I would guess that "normally" or as in most of the time, your bad shots are not due to simply a bad line or pulling the wrong club. You are not missing 6 or 9 greens on average due to perfect swings with one of the faults above. You are missing (I'd bet the majority of them) with bad swings (either contact or face/path issues).

> > > > b) your rounds are still rounds. If you want to improve, you should still strive to see some progress in shooting lower scores when you play. Saying that you are happy ending up in bad spots because it's a lesson is just hilarious. You can learn and practice all of the good things like routine and confidence with any club. You can also go to the practice green, drop 20 balls, and pretend you just hit your approach shots there.

> > > >

> > > > Again, I'm saying nothing about whether a different iron head would put you in a different spot. I'm just saying that your perspective and rationale make absolutely no sense. You could go buy some left-handed clubs, flip them around, give it a whack, and be happy dribbling it around the course all day in the name of practice too (I bet you'll be in all kinds of bunkers, trees, and native areas with this strategy). Would anyone actually suggest that?

> > > >

> > > > Every golfer, regardless of ability, screws up when they play. And when we are trying something new there is no need to beat ourselves up excessively, But I think you still need to take the score semi-seriously when you play. It is the most important measure in evaluating our improvement.

> > >

> > > This makes zero sense and frankly I'm not even sure what your suggesting or saying? Are you suggesting that he doesn't care about his score? Are you suggesting he doesn't care about development? Are suggesting that he's doing something that will hinder his score or development down the road?

> > >

> > > His "perspective and rational" makes perfect sense to me because it's the exact perspective and rational I adopted 2.5 years ago and my complete game and scoring is unrecognizable to what it use to be. And in those 2.5 years I easily didn't score about 50 rounds. Just worked on gaining knowledge and learning to execute that knowledge. Don't get me wrong, I went the G30 route for 2 years before that and they did NOTHING for me. Also tried the 588 Altitude route before the G30's and NOTHING changed. But I guess we're all different...or is that the point that eludes you and a few others...the fact that we're not all like you. I know that's a tough concept to grasp for some for those with simple minds that feel the need to put everything into tidy little boxes. You'll pardon me if I don't fit into your delusional and preconceived notions of how YOU think things should be.

> > >

> > > @revanat Yes you heard that right. At least 50 or more rounds where I didn't score my round. Just worked on becoming a better ball striker and did that by acquiring knowledge and learning to execute that knowledge. Also learning quite a bit about myself and my natural instincts that worked tremendously well in hockey and soccer yet seemed to be a detriment to my golf swing. You may not realize this yet but you're much longer than you think. Better mechanics will get you much better height, distance and accuracy. Don't ever settle until you figure it out. Might take a long time but when you do, it will all be worth it. Knowledge is everything. Will and determination is the machete that cuts through the bushes and gets you there. Don't settle ?

> > You in Post #1652: And let's not criticize what inspires us to play better or the little nuances that work for us but not might work for others.

> >

> > You now: you can call us simple minded and delusional because what we say doesn't match with what you think.

>

> Again you make no sense. That's exactly what I said. It was your post that insinuated that not scoring or worrying about score in a development process is "not the way to go about it". You continually prove my point. ? And again, you and a few others continually avoid discussing points of interest that could further this discussion.

>

> “Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened.” - Winston Churchill

It's not about my post. I responded to revanat directly. The point is you bash a certain attitude or response and do the EXACT SAME THING that you asked people not to do!

[Titleist_PT23]

@dciccoritti

And I do think it's better to keep score. It's the only way we truly know if we are improving. I've also found that it is valuable for me to know exactly how many good and bad things happen per round. I previously got rattled a lot if I started slowly or if there was a blow-up hole after a good stretch. Now, I know that X bad things are going to happen per round. When it does I accept it and move on. And then try to reduce it's frequency over time. We also don't have it many days. I also find value in seeing whether I can keep my score below X even when it's a bad round. Or reduce the frequency of > X to as low as possible.

 

If you read my specific response to revanat, it was asking why he'd knowingly want a worse outcome today (that's the scenario he responded to) if he's trying to improve. If that's still not for him or someone else, OK.

 

But you said "don't criticize" and then you call me simple minded and delusional. And it doesn't matter if some of that was implied in my reply to revanat. You said don't do it but did it anyways ("do as I say, not as I do").

[revanant]

A lot of posts just came in. I’ll do my best to respond.

 

As a global statement, though, I’m not anti-CB. I hope my 716 CBs outperform my MP-4s, once I get the lie adjusted.

 

But, I think the point that keeps coming up is that the differences between irons will likely be incremental and small. As @agolf1 said, I’ll still have plenty of mishits with a cb. : )

 

My point was just I’m not going to be broken up about landing in a bunker instead of the green, if the culprit was a mistake on my iron swing. Mainly because a) who knows if equipment would have saved me? and b) even if it would have, who knows if saving a stroke now will really improve my game, long term—or cost me valuable experience.

 

I don’t toss my balls out of bunkers just because I play MBs and could have maybe gotten a better result with a different club. I don’t keep water penalties out of my score, just because I’m not a finished product yet. Golf is a bit crazy because it’s actually very punishing on beginners.

 

In bowling, beginners get bumpers. In golf, good golfers get to hit out of the fairway, while bad golfers have to find their third tee shot somewhere in the rough/sand/woods/ opposite fairway, etc.

 

Eventually, bad golfers take enough lumps, and they make fewer mistakes. It’s kind of like chess. The way to get good at chess is...to lose a lot of games of chess. Eventually, you find someone who hasn’t lost as much as you have, and you pass on the lesson. : )

 

I think golf is similar. You practice on a driving range. The ground is flat. Then, you take your game into a round, and you’ve got an uneven lie with the ball above your feet and a blind approach shot. You do that a few times, and you get better at navigating it.

 

Anyway, I don’t need to explain to you guys what it’s like to learn to play golf. You get it.

My point is just that I’m ok with taking my lumps and celebrating my successes in spite of adversity. I think my 6 iron out of a bunker with a blade will do more for me down the road than shooting a 47 instead of a 48.

 

[Nessism]

I've never understood this "banking experience" or "punish the mishit" perspective to drive improvement via blades. If I knew what I was doing wrong I would just fix it. Sure, a blade provides more feedback on mishits than a GI club, but it's not as if GI clubs cover up mistakes completely. A well struck shot, with any club, feels solid in the hands, shoots out on a nice medium high trajectory, and lands reasonably soft on the target, traveling the expected distance. That's all anyone needs to know regarding the quality of the shot.

Don't take me wrong, I'm all for people playing whatever clubs they want. Just do it for the right reasons and don't claim that blades will lead to a better swing at a later time because that's just not true.

[revanant]

> @balls_deep said:

> > @revanant said:

> > > @agolf1 said:

> > > > @revanant said:

> > > > > @chisag said:

> > > > > ... Here are 2 examples. I have played Z Forged my last couple rounds. I had 180 to a pin tucked over a bunker. I hit my 5 iron 185 and it was 171 to clear the bunker. Good shot is a little long and a bad shot is still on the green. I hit it jut a little thin, a shot that would be much better with my P760's, but it hit and stuck in the bank of the bunker because it came out a little low with less spin and just missed clearing the bunker. Later in the round I hit a knockdown into a good 15 mph wind. 149 and hit a 6 iron a little on the toe. Shot came out a little low and turning right. This hole has a deep bunker with very thick rough surrounding it making it much better to be in the sand but my shot buried in the grass. Again, my P760 would be on the fringe. I am sure I missed the dead center on several more shots but none were any better or worse than my P760's.

> > > > >

> > > > > ... I think many MB aficionado's would be pretty happy with those results. But for me, it is those one or two shots a round that may or may not make a difference in my score. The other irony is the P760's have a smaller profile at address than the Z Forged MB's and I like their look. The P760's feel almost as good in the pw-8 and darned close in the 7-4 irons. So for me, the choice is easy but the Z Forged are really nice and I get why some play them, especially of score is not your #1 goal.

> > > > So, to this point, it’s part of the reason why I think having the MP-4s in the bag is helpful.

> > > >

> > > > I can put a good strike on the ball and hit my target, and it’s important for me to develop a consistent pre-shot routine and confidence so that my best swing comes out. When everything comes together, it’s really a big confidence boost.

> > > >

> > > > If I miss or mess up, it’s also ok. I’m in the learning phase. My game is incomplete and I need to take my lumps. If my ball comes up short and I wind up in the sand or water, it’s a good lesson for me. Normally, the culprit is either having chosen too dangerous or aggressive of a target for me, or having taken the wrong club. With a pin near a bunker or an edge, my smarter play should probably be to aim for the middle of the green and work on my lag putting.

> > > >

> > > > But, since my rounds are basically practice, and I can use all sorts of on course practice, I’m not sure I’m doing myself any favors if I get a thin mishit and dodge a bunker. Since I’m still pretty fresh, I can probably use both the bunker practice and the lesson about having thinned my iron and whatever caused it—whether it was uneven lie, poor pre-shot routine, bad weight shift, etc.

> > > This is all just justifying what you want to do. I'm entirely fine with you hitting your MP-4s. There may or may not be a benefit from another type of club, and if there is the amount would likely be fairly small anyways. And whatever choice you make will have little impact on where you are 1 year, 2, years, or 5 years from now.

> > >

> > > But,

> > > a) I would guess that "normally" or as in most of the time, your bad shots are not due to simply a bad line or pulling the wrong club. You are not missing 6 or 9 greens on average due to perfect swings with one of the faults above. You are missing (I'd bet the majority of them) with bad swings (either contact or face/path issues).

> > > b) your rounds are still rounds. If you want to improve, you should still strive to see some progress in shooting lower scores when you play. Saying that you are happy ending up in bad spots because it's a lesson is just hilarious. You can learn and practice all of the good things like routine and confidence with any club. You can also go to the practice green, drop 20 balls, and pretend you just hit your approach shots there.

> > >

> > > Again, I'm saying nothing about whether a different iron head would put you in a different spot. I'm just saying that your perspective and rationale make absolutely no sense. You could go buy some left-handed clubs, flip them around, give it a whack, and be happy dribbling it around the course all day in the name of practice too (I bet you'll be in all kinds of bunkers, trees, and native areas with this strategy). Would anyone actually suggest that?

> > >

> > > Every golfer, regardless of ability, screws up when they play. And when we are trying something new there is no need to beat ourselves up excessively, But I think you still need to take the score semi-seriously when you play. It is the most important measure in evaluating our improvement.

> >

> > That being said, I do appreciate the feedback. My point is more about outlook.

> >

> > I’m always trying to do well when I play. But I don’t a lot of on-course time—just 9 holes in a week, usually.

> >

> > I’m not trying to aim into a bunker for the sake of practice. I’m playing a real round and trying to execute good golf shots to make par or bogey.

> >

> > But if I mishit my iron, I honestly think there’s value from a growth perspective to seeing the drop off and having to now play my foul ball.

> >

> > I look at it this way—my scores that I earn now don’t have a lot of consequence. My game is incomplete—I can rack up a lot of strokes with unnecessary 3 putts or poor wedge play that a better player wouldn’t have. I don’t take those strokes out of my score—but I also don’t get down on myself for having those mistakes. I think they’ll fade away in time.

> >

> > So, knowing that my game is incomplete and I make beginner mistakes at times, I’d rather bank the experience now, so that I can draw on it when I’m a better player two years from now. If my mishit MB carries a bunker and lands on a green, I know that I took enough club and built in enough leeway to allow for an imperfect strike. If I wind up in the sand, then I know that I needed a little more if it was a small miss, or that I took too aggressive of a line. If I cover an extra few yard with a CB and still land a green, I’m just cheating myself out of a lesson on club selection. I’m also missing out on live-round experience in a green side bunker.

> >

> > I’m not actively looking to be in a bunker during a round. I try to minimize it. But I don’t get a lot of bunker practice—there’s no practice green at my course, and I’m in NYC, so golf options are a bit limited. Knowing that, if I botch an iron shot and wind up in the sand, I think it’s important to take my licks and play those shots. That way, when they happen to me in the future, I’ll be more experienced. My score and handicap might be higher now, but I’m not going to look back in three years and be proud that I shot a 47 on a random 9 hole round way back when. I may need the experience I got about not taking too aggressive of a line over a bunker, or in how to get out of a greenside bunker cleanly.

>

> Using a CB is not cheating yourself. Again, if that was the case we should have no help in any of our other clubs. You should be using a 2 iron instead of your 5 wood if you want to learn as you say. That extra launch and forgiveness is cheating yourself. Best go thin that 2 iron 70 yards down the fairway so you can play better golf in 5 years.

 

You’re right. I don’t think a CB is cheating or that my golf is more pure with an MP-4. Didn’t mean to give that impression.

 

@agolf1 I agree that I don’t knowingly choose a worse result. If I think I need a 6 iron to reach the green, I’m not going to take a 7 so that I’m in the bunker.

[dciccoritti]

> @agolf1 said:

> > @dciccoritti said:

> > > @agolf1 said:

> > > > @dciccoritti said:

> > > > > @agolf1 said:

> > > > > > @revanant said:

> > > > > > > @chisag said:

> > > > > > > ... Here are 2 examples. I have played Z Forged my last couple rounds. I had 180 to a pin tucked over a bunker. I hit my 5 iron 185 and it was 171 to clear the bunker. Good shot is a little long and a bad shot is still on the green. I hit it jut a little thin, a shot that would be much better with my P760's, but it hit and stuck in the bank of the bunker because it came out a little low with less spin and just missed clearing the bunker. Later in the round I hit a knockdown into a good 15 mph wind. 149 and hit a 6 iron a little on the toe. Shot came out a little low and turning right. This hole has a deep bunker with very thick rough surrounding it making it much better to be in the sand but my shot buried in the grass. Again, my P760 would be on the fringe. I am sure I missed the dead center on several more shots but none were any better or worse than my P760's.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > ... I think many MB aficionado's would be pretty happy with those results. But for me, it is those one or two shots a round that may or may not make a difference in my score. The other irony is the P760's have a smaller profile at address than the Z Forged MB's and I like their look. The P760's feel almost as good in the pw-8 and darned close in the 7-4 irons. So for me, the choice is easy but the Z Forged are really nice and I get why some play them, especially of score is not your #1 goal.

> > > > > > So, to this point, it’s part of the reason why I think having the MP-4s in the bag is helpful.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I can put a good strike on the ball and hit my target, and it’s important for me to develop a consistent pre-shot routine and confidence so that my best swing comes out. When everything comes together, it’s really a big confidence boost.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > If I miss or mess up, it’s also ok. I’m in the learning phase. My game is incomplete and I need to take my lumps. If my ball comes up short and I wind up in the sand or water, it’s a good lesson for me. Normally, the culprit is either having chosen too dangerous or aggressive of a target for me, or having taken the wrong club. With a pin near a bunker or an edge, my smarter play should probably be to aim for the middle of the green and work on my lag putting.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > But, since my rounds are basically practice, and I can use all sorts of on course practice, I’m not sure I’m doing myself any favors if I get a thin mishit and dodge a bunker. Since I’m still pretty fresh, I can probably use both the bunker practice and the lesson about having thinned my iron and whatever caused it—whether it was uneven lie, poor pre-shot routine, bad weight shift, etc.

> > > > > This is all just justifying what you want to do. I'm entirely fine with you hitting your MP-4s. There may or may not be a benefit from another type of club, and if there is the amount would likely be fairly small anyways. And whatever choice you make will have little impact on where you are 1 year, 2, years, or 5 years from now.

> > > > >

> > > > > But,

> > > > > a) I would guess that "normally" or as in most of the time, your bad shots are not due to simply a bad line or pulling the wrong club. You are not missing 6 or 9 greens on average due to perfect swings with one of the faults above. You are missing (I'd bet the majority of them) with bad swings (either contact or face/path issues).

> > > > > b) your rounds are still rounds. If you want to improve, you should still strive to see some progress in shooting lower scores when you play. Saying that you are happy ending up in bad spots because it's a lesson is just hilarious. You can learn and practice all of the good things like routine and confidence with any club. You can also go to the practice green, drop 20 balls, and pretend you just hit your approach shots there.

> > > > >

> > > > > Again, I'm saying nothing about whether a different iron head would put you in a different spot. I'm just saying that your perspective and rationale make absolutely no sense. You could go buy some left-handed clubs, flip them around, give it a whack, and be happy dribbling it around the course all day in the name of practice too (I bet you'll be in all kinds of bunkers, trees, and native areas with this strategy). Would anyone actually suggest that?

> > > > >

> > > > > Every golfer, regardless of ability, screws up when they play. And when we are trying something new there is no need to beat ourselves up excessively, But I think you still need to take the score semi-seriously when you play. It is the most important measure in evaluating our improvement.

> > > >

> > > > This makes zero sense and frankly I'm not even sure what your suggesting or saying? Are you suggesting that he doesn't care about his score? Are you suggesting he doesn't care about development? Are suggesting that he's doing something that will hinder his score or development down the road?

> > > >

> > > > His "perspective and rational" makes perfect sense to me because it's the exact perspective and rational I adopted 2.5 years ago and my complete game and scoring is unrecognizable to what it use to be. And in those 2.5 years I easily didn't score about 50 rounds. Just worked on gaining knowledge and learning to execute that knowledge. Don't get me wrong, I went the G30 route for 2 years before that and they did NOTHING for me. Also tried the 588 Altitude route before the G30's and NOTHING changed. But I guess we're all different...or is that the point that eludes you and a few others...the fact that we're not all like you. I know that's a tough concept to grasp for some for those with simple minds that feel the need to put everything into tidy little boxes. You'll pardon me if I don't fit into your delusional and preconceived notions of how YOU think things should be.

> > > >

> > > > @revanat Yes you heard that right. At least 50 or more rounds where I didn't score my round. Just worked on becoming a better ball striker and did that by acquiring knowledge and learning to execute that knowledge. Also learning quite a bit about myself and my natural instincts that worked tremendously well in hockey and soccer yet seemed to be a detriment to my golf swing. You may not realize this yet but you're much longer than you think. Better mechanics will get you much better height, distance and accuracy. Don't ever settle until you figure it out. Might take a long time but when you do, it will all be worth it. Knowledge is everything. Will and determination is the machete that cuts through the bushes and gets you there. Don't settle ?

> > > You in Post #1652: And let's not criticize what inspires us to play better or the little nuances that work for us but not might work for others.

> > >

> > > You now: you can call us simple minded and delusional because what we say doesn't match with what you think.

> >

> > Again you make no sense. That's exactly what I said. It was your post that insinuated that not scoring or worrying about score in a development process is "not the way to go about it". You continually prove my point. ? And again, you and a few others continually avoid discussing points of interest that could further this discussion.

> >

> > “Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened.” - Winston Churchill

> It's not about my post. I responded to revanat directly. The point is you bash a certain attitude or response and do the EXACT SAME THING that you asked people not to do!

 

Umm...no I didn't. It was about your post and what it insinuated that went directly against what I said.

[revanant]

> @MelloYello said:

> @revanant

>

> One thing I'd share is something I tried a few weeks back that I think I'll continue once work slows down. I was leaving work at 5:30-ish and going straight to the course. Instead of hitting the range or playing a normal 9 holes from my typical tees I was taking a handful of irons/wedges and teeing off from the ladies tees.

>

> First of all, this was great because the tees are spotless since no one ever hits from there, LOL. But what was great was that I gave myself a bunch of easy mid-irons out into the fairway. I could hit 2-3 shots into the middle of the fairway working on my general swing. Then I'd have a short iron or wedge to the green with each from where I could work on my scoring.

>

> I couldn't believe how quick I was able to play this way, too. The first time out I think I shot somewhere around even par with a couple birdies and a couple of 3-putt bogeys. If I recall I think I even had some sort of chip-in eagle at some point.

>

> Anyhow, I got a TON of work in that week with my full swing, my irons and my wedges and what was great was that I NEVER ONCE hit the range, LOL.

>

> I honestly don't know if I'll ever hit the range again when I can just go and do that.

>

> There are so many advantages to doing that. You get more exercise. You get real on-course practice. You get to keep score. You consistently putt for birdie!!! And of course you never ever lose a ball.

>

> I can't tell you what a good time I had. I really think that's the way to practice. If you're looking for something fun, give it a try. I have a light-weight Sunday bag I use which holds about 7-8 clubs. You don't even feel that on your back. It's great.

I think this is a great idea. I do something similar in my sim—I’m able to play course layouts, so I get to practice hitting different iron shots into elevation, over hazards, etc. its not as good as being on a course, but then, I work late hours. : )

 

As for my mindset—you probably wouldn’t enjoy being in my head, but luckily there’s only room for one. : )

 

Honestly, though, I really just try to apply Joseph Parent’s approach in Zen Golf to my game. I leave each shot behind and turn to the next one, good or bad. I take the good from a round, and work on the bad. I don’t get angry, and I’m not the club throwing type.

 

I also know how to compete. I obviously enjoy golf and commit to it. I’ve shaved strokes this summer. I’m playing better golf. And honestly, it’s why I take this thread with a large grain of salt. I know what I’m seeing on the course and where I can improve. I drop a ton of strokes within 50 yards.

 

If I’m within 30 yards of a flag in 2 istrokes with a fairway lie on a par 4, and make a triple bogey after shanking my wedge, I think the problem is my short game.

 

[revanant]

@balls_deep I hear your points about getting better at golf. I’m honestly on board.

 

I totally agree the best place for me to gain strokes is in clubhead speed and better technique. I don’t think I flip—my numbers are pretty close to LPGA numbers. I’m just a club slower with my weaker-lofted irons. When I tried the P790, I was bang on for distance, spin, carry, launch, etc.

 

So, the reason I’m not so freaked out over my irons is just that—I think my real gains aren’t going to come from a little more tech. I’m a young guy. I’m in good shape, but I don’t work out in a golf-targeted fashion. And I basically take quarterly lessons, as the price for a lesson in NYC is very steep. I think if I really get on a workout schedule for golf, I’ll see a lot of gains. Or, if I find an affordable pro. But, it won’t be overnight, and I’m trying to get as much golf in as I can now, while the season is open.

—-

Actually, if anyone can recommend a good golf workout/fitness plan, I’d be interested.

 

I walk my rounds, but I don’t think it’s doing enough for my club speed. : )

[Titleist_PT23]

> @revanant said:

> You’re right. I don’t think a CB is cheating or that my golf is more pure with an MP-4. Didn’t mean to give that impression.

>

> @agolf1 I agree that I don’t knowingly choose a worse result. If I think I need a 6 iron to reach the green, I’m not going to take a 7 so that I’m in the bunker.

It wasn't 6-iron vs. 7-iron. It was a MB that ended up in the bunker (thinned shot) when supposedly a cavity would have carried it.

[BiggErn]

> @revanant said:

> > @MelloYello said:

> > @revanant

> >

> > One thing I'd share is something I tried a few weeks back that I think I'll continue once work slows down. I was leaving work at 5:30-ish and going straight to the course. Instead of hitting the range or playing a normal 9 holes from my typical tees I was taking a handful of irons/wedges and teeing off from the ladies tees.

> >

> > First of all, this was great because the tees are spotless since no one ever hits from there, LOL. But what was great was that I gave myself a bunch of easy mid-irons out into the fairway. I could hit 2-3 shots into the middle of the fairway working on my general swing. Then I'd have a short iron or wedge to the green with each from where I could work on my scoring.

> >

> > I couldn't believe how quick I was able to play this way, too. The first time out I think I shot somewhere around even par with a couple birdies and a couple of 3-putt bogeys. If I recall I think I even had some sort of chip-in eagle at some point.

> >

> > Anyhow, I got a TON of work in that week with my full swing, my irons and my wedges and what was great was that I NEVER ONCE hit the range, LOL.

> >

> > I honestly don't know if I'll ever hit the range again when I can just go and do that.

> >

> > There are so many advantages to doing that. You get more exercise. You get real on-course practice. You get to keep score. You consistently putt for birdie!!! And of course you never ever lose a ball.

> >

> > I can't tell you what a good time I had. I really think that's the way to practice. If you're looking for something fun, give it a try. I have a light-weight Sunday bag I use which holds about 7-8 clubs. You don't even feel that on your back. It's great.

> I think this is a great idea. I do something similar in my sim—I’m able to play course layouts, so I get to practice hitting different iron shots into elevation, over hazards, etc. its not as good as being on a course, but then, I work late hours. : )

>

> As for my mindset—you probably wouldn’t enjoy being in my head, but luckily there’s only room for one. : )

>

> Honestly, though, I really just try to apply Joseph Parent’s approach in Zen Golf to my game. I leave each shot behind and turn to the next one, good or bad. I take the good from a round, and work on the bad. I don’t get angry, and I’m not the club throwing type.

>

> I also know how to compete. I obviously enjoy golf and commit to it. I’ve shaved strokes this summer. I’m playing better golf. And honestly, it’s why I take this thread with a large grain of salt. I know what I’m seeing on the course and where I can improve. I drop a ton of strokes within 50 yards.

>

> If I’m within 30 yards of a flag in 2 istrokes with a fairway lie on a par 4, and make a triple bogey after shanking my wedge, I think the problem is my short game.

>

 

If you’re 30 yards shorts in 2 and make a triple it’s everything, not just your short game.

[Titleist_PT23]

> @dciccoritti said:

> > @agolf1 said:

> > > @dciccoritti said:

> > > > @agolf1 said:

> > > > > @dciccoritti said:

> > > > > > @agolf1 said:

> > > > > > > @revanant said:

> > > > > > > > @chisag said:

> > > > > > > > ... Here are 2 examples. I have played Z Forged my last couple rounds. I had 180 to a pin tucked over a bunker. I hit my 5 iron 185 and it was 171 to clear the bunker. Good shot is a little long and a bad shot is still on the green. I hit it jut a little thin, a shot that would be much better with my P760's, but it hit and stuck in the bank of the bunker because it came out a little low with less spin and just missed clearing the bunker. Later in the round I hit a knockdown into a good 15 mph wind. 149 and hit a 6 iron a little on the toe. Shot came out a little low and turning right. This hole has a deep bunker with very thick rough surrounding it making it much better to be in the sand but my shot buried in the grass. Again, my P760 would be on the fringe. I am sure I missed the dead center on several more shots but none were any better or worse than my P760's.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > ... I think many MB aficionado's would be pretty happy with those results. But for me, it is those one or two shots a round that may or may not make a difference in my score. The other irony is the P760's have a smaller profile at address than the Z Forged MB's and I like their look. The P760's feel almost as good in the pw-8 and darned close in the 7-4 irons. So for me, the choice is easy but the Z Forged are really nice and I get why some play them, especially of score is not your #1 goal.

> > > > > > > So, to this point, it’s part of the reason why I think having the MP-4s in the bag is helpful.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > I can put a good strike on the ball and hit my target, and it’s important for me to develop a consistent pre-shot routine and confidence so that my best swing comes out. When everything comes together, it’s really a big confidence boost.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > If I miss or mess up, it’s also ok. I’m in the learning phase. My game is incomplete and I need to take my lumps. If my ball comes up short and I wind up in the sand or water, it’s a good lesson for me. Normally, the culprit is either having chosen too dangerous or aggressive of a target for me, or having taken the wrong club. With a pin near a bunker or an edge, my smarter play should probably be to aim for the middle of the green and work on my lag putting.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > But, since my rounds are basically practice, and I can use all sorts of on course practice, I’m not sure I’m doing myself any favors if I get a thin mishit and dodge a bunker. Since I’m still pretty fresh, I can probably use both the bunker practice and the lesson about having thinned my iron and whatever caused it—whether it was uneven lie, poor pre-shot routine, bad weight shift, etc.

> > > > > > This is all just justifying what you want to do. I'm entirely fine with you hitting your MP-4s. There may or may not be a benefit from another type of club, and if there is the amount would likely be fairly small anyways. And whatever choice you make will have little impact on where you are 1 year, 2, years, or 5 years from now.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > But,

> > > > > > a) I would guess that "normally" or as in most of the time, your bad shots are not due to simply a bad line or pulling the wrong club. You are not missing 6 or 9 greens on average due to perfect swings with one of the faults above. You are missing (I'd bet the majority of them) with bad swings (either contact or face/path issues).

> > > > > > b) your rounds are still rounds. If you want to improve, you should still strive to see some progress in shooting lower scores when you play. Saying that you are happy ending up in bad spots because it's a lesson is just hilarious. You can learn and practice all of the good things like routine and confidence with any club. You can also go to the practice green, drop 20 balls, and pretend you just hit your approach shots there.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Again, I'm saying nothing about whether a different iron head would put you in a different spot. I'm just saying that your perspective and rationale make absolutely no sense. You could go buy some left-handed clubs, flip them around, give it a whack, and be happy dribbling it around the course all day in the name of practice too (I bet you'll be in all kinds of bunkers, trees, and native areas with this strategy). Would anyone actually suggest that?

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Every golfer, regardless of ability, screws up when they play. And when we are trying something new there is no need to beat ourselves up excessively, But I think you still need to take the score semi-seriously when you play. It is the most important measure in evaluating our improvement.

> > > > >

> > > > > This makes zero sense and frankly I'm not even sure what your suggesting or saying? Are you suggesting that he doesn't care about his score? Are you suggesting he doesn't care about development? Are suggesting that he's doing something that will hinder his score or development down the road?

> > > > >

> > > > > His "perspective and rational" makes perfect sense to me because it's the exact perspective and rational I adopted 2.5 years ago and my complete game and scoring is unrecognizable to what it use to be. And in those 2.5 years I easily didn't score about 50 rounds. Just worked on gaining knowledge and learning to execute that knowledge. Don't get me wrong, I went the G30 route for 2 years before that and they did NOTHING for me. Also tried the 588 Altitude route before the G30's and NOTHING changed. But I guess we're all different...or is that the point that eludes you and a few others...the fact that we're not all like you. I know that's a tough concept to grasp for some for those with simple minds that feel the need to put everything into tidy little boxes. You'll pardon me if I don't fit into your delusional and preconceived notions of how YOU think things should be.

> > > > >

> > > > > @revanat Yes you heard that right. At least 50 or more rounds where I didn't score my round. Just worked on becoming a better ball striker and did that by acquiring knowledge and learning to execute that knowledge. Also learning quite a bit about myself and my natural instincts that worked tremendously well in hockey and soccer yet seemed to be a detriment to my golf swing. You may not realize this yet but you're much longer than you think. Better mechanics will get you much better height, distance and accuracy. Don't ever settle until you figure it out. Might take a long time but when you do, it will all be worth it. Knowledge is everything. Will and determination is the machete that cuts through the bushes and gets you there. Don't settle ?

> > > > You in Post #1652: And let's not criticize what inspires us to play better or the little nuances that work for us but not might work for others.

> > > >

> > > > You now: you can call us simple minded and delusional because what we say doesn't match with what you think.

> > >

> > > Again you make no sense. That's exactly what I said. It was your post that insinuated that not scoring or worrying about score in a development process is "not the way to go about it". You continually prove my point. ? And again, you and a few others continually avoid discussing points of interest that could further this discussion.

> > >

> > > “Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened.” - Winston Churchill

> > It's not about my post. I responded to revanat directly. The point is you bash a certain attitude or response and do the EXACT SAME THING that you asked people not to do!

>

> Umm...no I didn't. It was about your post and what it insinuated that went directly against what I said.

Still wrong but OK. You also bashed people's reading comprehension skills but when I made a post about drivers and current offerings / year-to-year differences you posted a video about hickory vs modern. When that was clarified I got no response from you. Funny again.

[revanant]

> @agolf1 said:

> > @revanant said:

> > You’re right. I don’t think a CB is cheating or that my golf is more pure with an MP-4. Didn’t mean to give that impression.

> >

> > @agolf1 I agree that I don’t knowingly choose a worse result. If I think I need a 6 iron to reach the green, I’m not going to take a 7 so that I’m in the bunker.

> It wasn't 6-iron vs. 7-iron. It was a MB that ended up in the bunker (thinned shot) when supposedly a cavity would have carried it.

 

> @BiggErn said:

> > @revanant said:

> > > @MelloYello said:

> > > @revanant

> > >

> > > One thing I'd share is something I tried a few weeks back that I think I'll continue once work slows down. I was leaving work at 5:30-ish and going straight to the course. Instead of hitting the range or playing a normal 9 holes from my typical tees I was taking a handful of irons/wedges and teeing off from the ladies tees.

> > >

> > > First of all, this was great because the tees are spotless since no one ever hits from there, LOL. But what was great was that I gave myself a bunch of easy mid-irons out into the fairway. I could hit 2-3 shots into the middle of the fairway working on my general swing. Then I'd have a short iron or wedge to the green with each from where I could work on my scoring.

> > >

> > > I couldn't believe how quick I was able to play this way, too. The first time out I think I shot somewhere around even par with a couple birdies and a couple of 3-putt bogeys. If I recall I think I even had some sort of chip-in eagle at some point.

> > >

> > > Anyhow, I got a TON of work in that week with my full swing, my irons and my wedges and what was great was that I NEVER ONCE hit the range, LOL.

> > >

> > > I honestly don't know if I'll ever hit the range again when I can just go and do that.

> > >

> > > There are so many advantages to doing that. You get more exercise. You get real on-course practice. You get to keep score. You consistently putt for birdie!!! And of course you never ever lose a ball.

> > >

> > > I can't tell you what a good time I had. I really think that's the way to practice. If you're looking for something fun, give it a try. I have a light-weight Sunday bag I use which holds about 7-8 clubs. You don't even feel that on your back. It's great.

> > I think this is a great idea. I do something similar in my sim—I’m able to play course layouts, so I get to practice hitting different iron shots into elevation, over hazards, etc. its not as good as being on a course, but then, I work late hours. : )

> >

> > As for my mindset—you probably wouldn’t enjoy being in my head, but luckily there’s only room for one. : )

> >

> > Honestly, though, I really just try to apply Joseph Parent’s approach in Zen Golf to my game. I leave each shot behind and turn to the next one, good or bad. I take the good from a round, and work on the bad. I don’t get angry, and I’m not the club throwing type.

> >

> > I also know how to compete. I obviously enjoy golf and commit to it. I’ve shaved strokes this summer. I’m playing better golf. And honestly, it’s why I take this thread with a large grain of salt. I know what I’m seeing on the course and where I can improve. I drop a ton of strokes within 50 yards.

> >

> > If I’m within 30 yards of a flag in 2 istrokes with a fairway lie on a par 4, and make a triple bogey after shanking my wedge, I think the problem is my short game.

> >

>

> If you’re 30 yards shorts in 2 and make a triple it’s everything, not just your short game.

 

When I look at my rounds, it’s just not what I see. The hole before I made par. It was a par 5. It went 3 wood, 3 wood, iron, putt, putt.

 

The hole above had my first bad tee shot. So, it went 3 wood (thin), 5 wood from rough.

 

Now that I was 30 yards away, I had dropped a shot. I’m in the fairway, with a clean lie. Normal play from there on is a bogey. Great play saves par.

 

My short game and putting showed up and added two more dropped strokes within 30 yards.

 

When I say I’m pretty good from the tee with my 3 wood and my irons aren’t hurting me, it’s because of stuff like that. I’m not overestimating. I’m dropping a ton of shots within 50 yards, where a more experienced player would come out with fewer mistakes.

[Tree Levino]

> @revanant said:

> @balls_deep I hear your points about getting better at golf. I’m honestly on board.

>

> I totally agree the best place for me to gain strokes is in clubhead speed and better technique. I don’t think I flip—my numbers are pretty close to LPGA numbers. I’m just a club slower with my weaker-lofted irons. When I tried the P790, I was bang on for distance, spin, carry, launch, etc.

>

> So, the reason I’m not so freaked out over my irons is just that—I think my real gains aren’t going to come from a little more tech. I’m a young guy. I’m in good shape, but I don’t work out in a golf-targeted fashion. And I basically take quarterly lessons, as the price for a lesson in NYC is very steep. I think if I really get on a workout schedule for golf, I’ll see a lot of gains. Or, if I find an affordable pro. But, it won’t be overnight, and I’m trying to get as much golf in as I can now, while the season is open.

> —-

> Actually, if anyone can recommend a good golf workout/fitness plan, I’d be interested.

>

> I walk my rounds, but I don’t think it’s doing enough for my club speed. : )

 

I've never seen your swing, feel free to PM me, but my guess is you probably do a bit especially given you've described yourself as a picker. My 7 iron is my 180 club as I said - clubhead speed is low to mid 90s and I still flip a bit.

 

As for workouts, there's tons out there on Youtube but I don't think you need golf specific training. I run a lot, lots of squats, deadlifts, back, chest arms - the usual. Highly recommend yoga as the balance, strength and flexibility all benefit golf.

[revanant]

> @balls_deep said:

> > @revanant said:

> > @balls_deep I hear your points about getting better at golf. I’m honestly on board.

> >

> > I totally agree the best place for me to gain strokes is in clubhead speed and better technique. I don’t think I flip—my numbers are pretty close to LPGA numbers. I’m just a club slower with my weaker-lofted irons. When I tried the P790, I was bang on for distance, spin, carry, launch, etc.

> >

> > So, the reason I’m not so freaked out over my irons is just that—I think my real gains aren’t going to come from a little more tech. I’m a young guy. I’m in good shape, but I don’t work out in a golf-targeted fashion. And I basically take quarterly lessons, as the price for a lesson in NYC is very steep. I think if I really get on a workout schedule for golf, I’ll see a lot of gains. Or, if I find an affordable pro. But, it won’t be overnight, and I’m trying to get as much golf in as I can now, while the season is open.

> > —-

> > Actually, if anyone can recommend a good golf workout/fitness plan, I’d be interested.

> >

> > I walk my rounds, but I don’t think it’s doing enough for my club speed. : )

>

> I've never seen your swing, feel free to PM me, but my guess is you probably do a bit especially given you've described yourself as a picker. My 7 iron is my 180 club as I said - clubhead speed is low to mid 90s and I still flip a bit.

>

> As for workouts, there's tons out there on Youtube but I don't think you need golf specific training. I run a lot, lots of squats, deadlifts, back, chest arms - the usual. Highly recommend yoga as the balance, strength and flexibility all benefit golf.

 

Thanks!

 

My driver is low 90s, but I think I definitely have room to improve on flexibility. If I can add 10 mph by next summer with a better workout regime, I'll be thrilled. I've been meaning to really start this, so I'll put it into practice this week and try to keep it going.

[duffer987]

> @revanant said:

> > @agolf1 said:

> > > @revanant said:

> > > You’re right. I don’t think a CB is cheating or that my golf is more pure with an MP-4. Didn’t mean to give that impression.

> > >

> > > @agolf1 I agree that I don’t knowingly choose a worse result. If I think I need a 6 iron to reach the green, I’m not going to take a 7 so that I’m in the bunker.

> > It wasn't 6-iron vs. 7-iron. It was a MB that ended up in the bunker (thinned shot) when supposedly a cavity would have carried it.

>

> > @BiggErn said:

> > > @revanant said:

> > > > @MelloYello said:

> > > > @revanant

> > > >

> > > > One thing I'd share is something I tried a few weeks back that I think I'll continue once work slows down. I was leaving work at 5:30-ish and going straight to the course. Instead of hitting the range or playing a normal 9 holes from my typical tees I was taking a handful of irons/wedges and teeing off from the ladies tees.

> > > >

> > > > First of all, this was great because the tees are spotless since no one ever hits from there, LOL. But what was great was that I gave myself a bunch of easy mid-irons out into the fairway. I could hit 2-3 shots into the middle of the fairway working on my general swing. Then I'd have a short iron or wedge to the green with each from where I could work on my scoring.

> > > >

> > > > I couldn't believe how quick I was able to play this way, too. The first time out I think I shot somewhere around even par with a couple birdies and a couple of 3-putt bogeys. If I recall I think I even had some sort of chip-in eagle at some point.

> > > >

> > > > Anyhow, I got a TON of work in that week with my full swing, my irons and my wedges and what was great was that I NEVER ONCE hit the range, LOL.

> > > >

> > > > I honestly don't know if I'll ever hit the range again when I can just go and do that.

> > > >

> > > > There are so many advantages to doing that. You get more exercise. You get real on-course practice. You get to keep score. You consistently putt for birdie!!! And of course you never ever lose a ball.

> > > >

> > > > I can't tell you what a good time I had. I really think that's the way to practice. If you're looking for something fun, give it a try. I have a light-weight Sunday bag I use which holds about 7-8 clubs. You don't even feel that on your back. It's great.

> > > I think this is a great idea. I do something similar in my sim—I’m able to play course layouts, so I get to practice hitting different iron shots into elevation, over hazards, etc. its not as good as being on a course, but then, I work late hours. : )

> > >

> > > As for my mindset—you probably wouldn’t enjoy being in my head, but luckily there’s only room for one. : )

> > >

> > > Honestly, though, I really just try to apply Joseph Parent’s approach in Zen Golf to my game. I leave each shot behind and turn to the next one, good or bad. I take the good from a round, and work on the bad. I don’t get angry, and I’m not the club throwing type.

> > >

> > > I also know how to compete. I obviously enjoy golf and commit to it. I’ve shaved strokes this summer. I’m playing better golf. And honestly, it’s why I take this thread with a large grain of salt. I know what I’m seeing on the course and where I can improve. I drop a ton of strokes within 50 yards.

> > >

> > > If I’m within 30 yards of a flag in 2 istrokes with a fairway lie on a par 4, and make a triple bogey after shanking my wedge, I think the problem is my short game.

> > >

> >

> > If you’re 30 yards shorts in 2 and make a triple it’s everything, not just your short game.

>

> When I look at my rounds, it’s just not what I see. The hole before I made par. It was a par 5. It went 3 wood, 3 wood, iron, putt, putt.

>

> The hole above had my first bad tee shot. So, it went 3 wood (thin), 5 wood from rough.

>

> Now that I was 30 yards away, I had dropped a shot. I’m in the fairway, with a clean lie. Normal play from there on is a bogey. Great play saves par.

>

> My short game and putting showed up and added two more dropped strokes within 30 yards.

>

> When I say I’m pretty good from the tee with my 3 wood and my irons aren’t hurting me, it’s because of stuff like that. I’m not overestimating. I’m dropping a ton of shots within 50 yards, where a more experienced player would come out with fewer mistakes.

 

Eesh, still with the putting? Phew.

 

As many have pointed out above - and I thought some of us did it pretty well, lol - you could become a 'single-digit' calibre putter starting today and you're still going to be well into the 90s due to what comes before, which is your swing.

 

I won't bore you with a hole by hole, but my Sunday round was a 78 with 12 GIRs and 35 putts. I had two apron misses (ie. one stride from where my ball was to being on the green) that I putted, so let's call it 78 w/37 putts and my only birdie came with a two-putt on a par 5.

 

Is that a poor putting performance for a 78? As a 7.5 index, yes on average I should be some putts better than that. Am I going to blame my putting for not shooting a 75? No, generally speaking I could have done with better putting obviously, but what I remember from that round is my crap 8I approach on 9 that led a bogey, my leaked drive on 14 that blocked me out on my approach that led to a bogey, and one silly club choice, that led to a bogey on 17. Two better swings and one better choice is how I could have got to 75. If I am going to pick specific moments, like you seem to do.

 

Yes this is just one anecdote and one golfer's mindset, but the sooner you think about all the strokes you lose with your swing, the sooner you will realise that's where the big strides are made.

Maybe it is just me and only me, but I don't think anyone initially bases their single-digit games on putting and 20yd pitches (maybe you start to shift as you age). It simply seems back a s s ward to me. Happy to be told I'm way off base though.

[BiggErn]

> @duffer987 said:

> > @revanant said:

> > > @agolf1 said:

> > > > @revanant said:

> > > > You’re right. I don’t think a CB is cheating or that my golf is more pure with an MP-4. Didn’t mean to give that impression.

> > > >

> > > > @agolf1 I agree that I don’t knowingly choose a worse result. If I think I need a 6 iron to reach the green, I’m not going to take a 7 so that I’m in the bunker.

> > > It wasn't 6-iron vs. 7-iron. It was a MB that ended up in the bunker (thinned shot) when supposedly a cavity would have carried it.

> >

> > > @BiggErn said:

> > > > @revanant said:

> > > > > @MelloYello said:

> > > > > @revanant

> > > > >

> > > > > One thing I'd share is something I tried a few weeks back that I think I'll continue once work slows down. I was leaving work at 5:30-ish and going straight to the course. Instead of hitting the range or playing a normal 9 holes from my typical tees I was taking a handful of irons/wedges and teeing off from the ladies tees.

> > > > >

> > > > > First of all, this was great because the tees are spotless since no one ever hits from there, LOL. But what was great was that I gave myself a bunch of easy mid-irons out into the fairway. I could hit 2-3 shots into the middle of the fairway working on my general swing. Then I'd have a short iron or wedge to the green with each from where I could work on my scoring.

> > > > >

> > > > > I couldn't believe how quick I was able to play this way, too. The first time out I think I shot somewhere around even par with a couple birdies and a couple of 3-putt bogeys. If I recall I think I even had some sort of chip-in eagle at some point.

> > > > >

> > > > > Anyhow, I got a TON of work in that week with my full swing, my irons and my wedges and what was great was that I NEVER ONCE hit the range, LOL.

> > > > >

> > > > > I honestly don't know if I'll ever hit the range again when I can just go and do that.

> > > > >

> > > > > There are so many advantages to doing that. You get more exercise. You get real on-course practice. You get to keep score. You consistently putt for birdie!!! And of course you never ever lose a ball.

> > > > >

> > > > > I can't tell you what a good time I had. I really think that's the way to practice. If you're looking for something fun, give it a try. I have a light-weight Sunday bag I use which holds about 7-8 clubs. You don't even feel that on your back. It's great.

> > > > I think this is a great idea. I do something similar in my sim—I’m able to play course layouts, so I get to practice hitting different iron shots into elevation, over hazards, etc. its not as good as being on a course, but then, I work late hours. : )

> > > >

> > > > As for my mindset—you probably wouldn’t enjoy being in my head, but luckily there’s only room for one. : )

> > > >

> > > > Honestly, though, I really just try to apply Joseph Parent’s approach in Zen Golf to my game. I leave each shot behind and turn to the next one, good or bad. I take the good from a round, and work on the bad. I don’t get angry, and I’m not the club throwing type.

> > > >

> > > > I also know how to compete. I obviously enjoy golf and commit to it. I’ve shaved strokes this summer. I’m playing better golf. And honestly, it’s why I take this thread with a large grain of salt. I know what I’m seeing on the course and where I can improve. I drop a ton of strokes within 50 yards.

> > > >

> > > > If I’m within 30 yards of a flag in 2 istrokes with a fairway lie on a par 4, and make a triple bogey after shanking my wedge, I think the problem is my short game.

> > > >

> > >

> > > If you’re 30 yards shorts in 2 and make a triple it’s everything, not just your short game.

> >

> > When I look at my rounds, it’s just not what I see. The hole before I made par. It was a par 5. It went 3 wood, 3 wood, iron, putt, putt.

> >

> > The hole above had my first bad tee shot. So, it went 3 wood (thin), 5 wood from rough.

> >

> > Now that I was 30 yards away, I had dropped a shot. I’m in the fairway, with a clean lie. Normal play from there on is a bogey. Great play saves par.

> >

> > My short game and putting showed up and added two more dropped strokes within 30 yards.

> >

> > When I say I’m pretty good from the tee with my 3 wood and my irons aren’t hurting me, it’s because of stuff like that. I’m not overestimating. I’m dropping a ton of shots within 50 yards, where a more experienced player would come out with fewer mistakes.

>

> Eesh, still with the putting? Phew.

>

> As many have pointed out above - and I thought some of us did it pretty well, lol - you could become a 'single-digit' calibre putter starting today and you're still going to be well into the 90s due to what comes before, which is your swing.

>

> I won't bore you with a hole by hole, but my Sunday round was a 78 with 12 GIRs and 35 putts. I had two apron misses (ie. one stride from where my ball was to being on the green) that I putted, so let's call it 78 w/37 putts and my only birdie came with a two-putt on a par 5.

>

> Is that a poor putting performance for a 78? As a 7.5 index, yes on average I should be some putts better than that. Am I going to blame my putting for not shooting a 75? No, generally speaking I could have done with better putting obviously, but what I remember from that round is my crap 8I approach on 9 that led a bogey, my leaked drive on 14 that blocked me out on my approach that led to a bogey, and one silly club choice, that led to a bogey on 17. Two better swings and one better choice is how I could have got to 75. If I am going to pick specific moments, like you seem to do.

>

> Yes this is just one anecdote and one golfer's mindset, but the sooner you think about all the strokes you lose with your swing, the sooner you will realise that's where the big strides are made.

> Maybe it is just me and only me, but I don't think anyone initially bases their single-digit games on putting and 20yd pitches (maybe you start to shift as you age). It simply seems back a s s ward to me. Happy to be told I'm way off base though.

 

Played Sunday but had my round cut short due to a minor family emergency but got in 9, shot 37. Had 7 pars, a double, and a bird. I hit 4 gir missing a couple greens with a wedge (not badly) but every green I missed my short game put the ball inside 3 feet to save par and the bird was from about 25 yards to 3 ft for bird. The double was the result of trying to be cute off the tee and resulted in lost ball. The provisional was perfect, hit the green and 2 putted. 13 putts total for 9 holes.

[MelloYello]

> @duffer987 said:

 

>

> Eesh, still with the putting? Phew.

>

> As many have pointed out above - and I thought some of us did it pretty well, lol - you could become a 'single-digit' calibre putter starting today and you're still going to be well into the 90s due to what comes before, which is your swing.

>

> I won't bore you with a hole by hole, but my Sunday round was a 78 with 12 GIRs and 35 putts. I had two apron misses (ie. one stride from where my ball was to being on the green) that I putted, so let's call it 78 w/37 putts and my only birdie came with a two-putt on a par 5.

>

> Is that a poor putting performance for a 78? As a 7.5 index, yes on average I should be some putts better than that. Am I going to blame my putting for not shooting a 75? No, generally speaking I could have done with better putting obviously, but what I remember from that round is my crap 8I approach on 9 that led a bogey, my leaked drive on 14 that blocked me out on my approach that led to a bogey, and one silly club choice, that led to a bogey on 17. Two better swings and one better choice is how I could have got to 75. If I am going to pick specific moments, like you seem to do.

>

> Yes this is just one anecdote and one golfer's mindset, but the sooner you think about all the strokes you lose with your swing, the sooner you will realise that's where the big strides are made.

> Maybe it is just me and only me, but I don't think anyone initially bases their single-digit games on putting and 20yd pitches (maybe you start to shift as you age). It simply seems back a s s ward to me. Happy to be told I'm way off base though.

 

What I want to know is who doesn't focus in on their short game when it's an obvious weakness?

 

If you're hitting 6 GIR, that's not terrible golf. If you're making triple bogey from 20-yds off the green, that is DEFINITELY terrible golf.

 

I'm worried that @revanant is bypassing his scoring because either (A) he's enamored with the full-swing or (B) he's unwilling to put in the real work required to get better.

 

Both sound like major mistakes.

 

If you're losing strokes with the putter and the wedges....work on those, don't act like you can just flip a switch one day, get serious and drain putts. Golf does not work that way. Every single day you choose to put off working on something is another extra day you're delaying how long it's going to take until you're where you want to be.

 

 

[gambit]

This thread needs it's own forum.

[revanant]

> @MelloYello said:

> > @duffer987 said:

>

> >

> > Eesh, still with the putting? Phew.

> >

> > As many have pointed out above - and I thought some of us did it pretty well, lol - you could become a 'single-digit' calibre putter starting today and you're still going to be well into the 90s due to what comes before, which is your swing.

> >

> > I won't bore you with a hole by hole, but my Sunday round was a 78 with 12 GIRs and 35 putts. I had two apron misses (ie. one stride from where my ball was to being on the green) that I putted, so let's call it 78 w/37 putts and my only birdie came with a two-putt on a par 5.

> >

> > Is that a poor putting performance for a 78? As a 7.5 index, yes on average I should be some putts better than that. Am I going to blame my putting for not shooting a 75? No, generally speaking I could have done with better putting obviously, but what I remember from that round is my crap 8I approach on 9 that led a bogey, my leaked drive on 14 that blocked me out on my approach that led to a bogey, and one silly club choice, that led to a bogey on 17. Two better swings and one better choice is how I could have got to 75. If I am going to pick specific moments, like you seem to do.

> >

> > Yes this is just one anecdote and one golfer's mindset, but the sooner you think about all the strokes you lose with your swing, the sooner you will realise that's where the big strides are made.

> > Maybe it is just me and only me, but I don't think anyone initially bases their single-digit games on putting and 20yd pitches (maybe you start to shift as you age). It simply seems back a s s ward to me. Happy to be told I'm way off base though.

>

> What I want to know is who doesn't focus in on their short game when it's an obvious weakness?

>

> If you're hitting 6 GIR, that's not terrible golf. If you're making triple bogey from 20-yds off the green, that is DEFINITELY terrible golf.

>

> I'm worried that @revanant is bypassing his scoring because either (A) he's enamored with the full-swing or (B) he's unwilling to put in the real work required to get better.

>

> Both sound like major mistakes.

>

> If you're losing strokes with the putter and the wedges....work on those, don't act like you can just flip a switch one day, get serious and drain putts. Golf does not work that way. Every single day you choose to put off working on something is another extra day you're delaying how long it's going to take until you're where you want to be.

>

>

I'm 100% on board with this. Long story short--I'm focused on my short game and I'm putting in work. I'm improving, but slowly and unevenly.

 

[duffer987]

> @MelloYello said:

> > @duffer987 said:

>

> >

> > Eesh, still with the putting? Phew.

> >

> > As many have pointed out above - and I thought some of us did it pretty well, lol - you could become a 'single-digit' calibre putter starting today and you're still going to be well into the 90s due to what comes before, which is your swing.

> >

> > I won't bore you with a hole by hole, but my Sunday round was a 78 with 12 GIRs and 35 putts. I had two apron misses (ie. one stride from where my ball was to being on the green) that I putted, so let's call it 78 w/37 putts and my only birdie came with a two-putt on a par 5.

> >

> > Is that a poor putting performance for a 78? As a 7.5 index, yes on average I should be some putts better than that. Am I going to blame my putting for not shooting a 75? No, generally speaking I could have done with better putting obviously, but what I remember from that round is my crap 8I approach on 9 that led a bogey, my leaked drive on 14 that blocked me out on my approach that led to a bogey, and one silly club choice, that led to a bogey on 17. Two better swings and one better choice is how I could have got to 75. If I am going to pick specific moments, like you seem to do.

> >

> > Yes this is just one anecdote and one golfer's mindset, but the sooner you think about all the strokes you lose with your swing, the sooner you will realise that's where the big strides are made.

> > Maybe it is just me and only me, but I don't think anyone initially bases their single-digit games on putting and 20yd pitches (maybe you start to shift as you age). It simply seems back a s s ward to me. Happy to be told I'm way off base though.

>

> What I want to know is who doesn't focus in on their short game when it's an obvious weakness?

>

> If you're hitting 6 GIR, that's not terrible golf. If you're making triple bogey from 20-yds off the green, that is DEFINITELY terrible golf.

>

> I'm worried that @revanant is bypassing his scoring because either (A) he's enamored with the full-swing or (B) he's unwilling to put in the real work required to get better.

>

> Both sound like major mistakes.

>

> If you're losing strokes with the putter and the wedges....work on those, don't act like you can just flip a switch one day, get serious and drain putts. Golf does not work that way. Every single day you choose to put off working on something is another extra day you're delaying how long it's going to take until you're where you want to be.

>

>

 

Of course not, someone with lots of room for improvement can surely work on everything... with enough time :-)

But we've seen loads of posts where Revie (is it nickname time? lol) glosses over things outside 25yds and says if only I putted better, if only I had not had that three putt.

 

Such as: "I can rack up a lot of strokes with unnecessary 3 putts or poor wedge play that a better player wouldn’t have. I don’t take those strokes out of my score".

The take away: well sure I'm right there with 'better players' except for the short game. When all the LM numbers and anecdotal iron distances we've seen point out that is clearly not the case. No fit 20-something should be anywhere near as short as he is with a 1/2 decent swing.

[dciccoritti]

Interesting comments regarding forgiveness vs sole design from Ian at TXG. For those that are interested of course. Starts at 2:10