My Experience Gaming Blades as a Mid-High Handicapper

[BiggErn]

> @agolf1 said:

> I just find it interesting that with a new driver, look at how many people rave about increased forgiveness, etc, etc ("when I miss all over the face, it still goes **** yards") whereas with an iron many people believe "a bad swing is a bad swing and there's virtually no difference in clubhead design that will change anything."

>

> And I'm not disagreeing that drivers have changed over the years and there are different desired attributes with this club/shot. My general point is whether the basic and player's model within any OEM's current offering are that different and/or does it change that much from year-to-year (and yes, sometimes it does but many times it doesn't) to the extent that a "good" and "bad" swing is so readily identifiable vs. with an iron "it makes no difference."

>

> Or, people are willing to believe whatever they want to believe...

 

 

Another thing is they can’t stand to look at an iron with a .25 mm thicker topline than a baby blade but a 400cc+ driver is ok.

[noodle3872]

If this topic has taught me anything it is people will alter their perception/opinion/beliefs to justify the position they take on this debate and they’ll write a small essay to explain their position.

[revanant]

> @dciccoritti said:

> > @agolf1 said:

> > I just find it interesting that with a new driver, look at how many people rave about increased forgiveness, etc, etc ("when I miss all over the face, it still goes **** yards") whereas with an iron many people believe "a bad swing is a bad swing and there's virtually no difference in clubhead design that will change anything."

> >

> > And I'm not disagreeing that drivers have changed over the years and there are different desired attributes with this club/shot. My general point is whether the basic and player's model within any OEM's current offering are that different and/or does it change that much from year-to-year (and yes, sometimes it does but many times it doesn't) to the extent that a "good" and "bad" swing is so readily identifiable vs. with an iron "it makes no difference."

> >

> > Or, people are willing to believe whatever they want to believe...

>

>

>

 

That's a crazy video. I think a few things really stood out:

1) The difference between the hickory 5 iron and the modern 5 iron was averaged to 11% of distance drop off. In nearly 100 years of innovation and design...11%? Contrasted with the driver delta of close to 50%, and I think it supports the argument that you can do more on the engineering side with the large driver head than you can with an iron.

2) Hickory irons honestly seem like fun. You wouldn't put them in the bag to maximize score, but I definitely think it would be a blast to play some rounds with them.

3) The modern equipment still has a lot of distance variance. The first 9 iron shot at :42 has about 10 yards of dropoff for being thin. The five iron carry spanned from 207 to 214. I suspect you just can't engineer mishits out of an iron.

4) If we go back to the earlier point, if all we're talking about is small amounts of improvements due to iron forgiveness, then by necessity, the difference in performance from going from an MB to CB should also be small, right? I totally get that there are a lot of golfers who will claw back every % they possibly can to maximize their game, and I really do respect it. But if the differences are small and hard to pinpoint, and if even the Taylormade M2 can show massive distance dropoffs in the hands of a teaching pro, then it seems like iron choice just really isn't worth getting worked up about. Strive for a good fit and good flight window while playing something that fits your eye, and if you're comfortable with a little bit of sacrifice of performance in the name of fun, that's ok too--since the difference isn't huge.

[BiggErn]

> @revanant said:

> > @dciccoritti said:

> > > @agolf1 said:

> > > I just find it interesting that with a new driver, look at how many people rave about increased forgiveness, etc, etc ("when I miss all over the face, it still goes **** yards") whereas with an iron many people believe "a bad swing is a bad swing and there's virtually no difference in clubhead design that will change anything."

> > >

> > > And I'm not disagreeing that drivers have changed over the years and there are different desired attributes with this club/shot. My general point is whether the basic and player's model within any OEM's current offering are that different and/or does it change that much from year-to-year (and yes, sometimes it does but many times it doesn't) to the extent that a "good" and "bad" swing is so readily identifiable vs. with an iron "it makes no difference."

> > >

> > > Or, people are willing to believe whatever they want to believe...

> >

> >

> >

>

> That's a crazy video. I think a few things really stood out:

> 1) The difference between the hickory 5 iron and the modern 5 iron was averaged to 11% of distance drop off. In nearly 100 years of innovation and design...11%? Contrasted with the driver delta of close to 50%, and I think it supports the argument that you can do more on the engineering side with the large driver head than you can with an iron.

> 2) Hickory irons honestly seem like fun. You wouldn't put them in the bag to maximize score, but I definitely think it would be a blast to play some rounds with them.

> 3) The modern equipment still has a lot of distance variance. The first 9 iron shot at :42 has about 10 yards of dropoff for being thin. The five iron carry spanned from 207 to 214. I suspect you just can't engineer mishits out of an iron.

> 4) If we go back to the earlier point, if all we're talking about is small amounts of improvements due to iron forgiveness, then by necessity, the difference in performance from going from an MB to CB should also be small, right? I totally get that there are a lot of golfers who will claw back every % they possibly can to maximize their game, and I really do respect it. But if the differences are small and hard to pinpoint, and if even the Taylormade M2 can show massive distance dropoffs in the hands of a teaching pro, then it seems like iron choice just really isn't worth getting worked up about. Strive for a good fit and good flight window while playing something that fits your eye, and if you're comfortable with a little bit of sacrifice of performance in the name of fun, that's ok too--since the difference isn't huge.

 

You seem to think 11% is a small number and I have to assume it’s based on perfectly struck shots between the two. If the average golfer hits a 5 iron 185 yards the 11% is 20 yards, that’s huge. Same is true with the MB be CB argument. Any miss that helps me retain maximum MOI is gonna be better than a miss that severely decreases MOI.

[mahonie]

> @BiggErn said:

> > @revanant said:

> > > @dciccoritti said:

> > > > @agolf1 said:

> > > > I just find it interesting that with a new driver, look at how many people rave about increased forgiveness, etc, etc ("when I miss all over the face, it still goes **** yards") whereas with an iron many people believe "a bad swing is a bad swing and there's virtually no difference in clubhead design that will change anything."

> > > >

> > > > And I'm not disagreeing that drivers have changed over the years and there are different desired attributes with this club/shot. My general point is whether the basic and player's model within any OEM's current offering are that different and/or does it change that much from year-to-year (and yes, sometimes it does but many times it doesn't) to the extent that a "good" and "bad" swing is so readily identifiable vs. with an iron "it makes no difference."

> > > >

> > > > Or, people are willing to believe whatever they want to believe...

> > >

> > >

> > >

> >

> > That's a crazy video. I think a few things really stood out:

> > 1) The difference between the hickory 5 iron and the modern 5 iron was averaged to 11% of distance drop off. In nearly 100 years of innovation and design...11%? Contrasted with the driver delta of close to 50%, and I think it supports the argument that you can do more on the engineering side with the large driver head than you can with an iron.

> > 2) Hickory irons honestly seem like fun. You wouldn't put them in the bag to maximize score, but I definitely think it would be a blast to play some rounds with them.

> > 3) The modern equipment still has a lot of distance variance. The first 9 iron shot at :42 has about 10 yards of dropoff for being thin. The five iron carry spanned from 207 to 214. I suspect you just can't engineer mishits out of an iron.

> > 4) If we go back to the earlier point, if all we're talking about is small amounts of improvements due to iron forgiveness, then by necessity, the difference in performance from going from an MB to CB should also be small, right? I totally get that there are a lot of golfers who will claw back every % they possibly can to maximize their game, and I really do respect it. But if the differences are small and hard to pinpoint, and if even the Taylormade M2 can show massive distance dropoffs in the hands of a teaching pro, then it seems like iron choice just really isn't worth getting worked up about. Strive for a good fit and good flight window while playing something that fits your eye, and if you're comfortable with a little bit of sacrifice of performance in the name of fun, that's ok too--since the difference isn't huge.

>

> You seem to think 11% is a small number and I have to assume it’s based on perfectly struck shots between the two. If the average golfer hits a 5 iron 185 yards the 11% is 20 yards, that’s huge. Same is true with the MB be CB argument. Any miss that helps me retain maximum MOI is gonna be better than a miss that severely decreases MOI.

 

But the difference between a modern MB and CB is nowhere near 11%...which is why the drop offs are not as severe as the OEMs would have you believe.

[BiggErn]

> @mahonie said:

> > @BiggErn said:

> > > @revanant said:

> > > > @dciccoritti said:

> > > > > @agolf1 said:

> > > > > I just find it interesting that with a new driver, look at how many people rave about increased forgiveness, etc, etc ("when I miss all over the face, it still goes **** yards") whereas with an iron many people believe "a bad swing is a bad swing and there's virtually no difference in clubhead design that will change anything."

> > > > >

> > > > > And I'm not disagreeing that drivers have changed over the years and there are different desired attributes with this club/shot. My general point is whether the basic and player's model within any OEM's current offering are that different and/or does it change that much from year-to-year (and yes, sometimes it does but many times it doesn't) to the extent that a "good" and "bad" swing is so readily identifiable vs. with an iron "it makes no difference."

> > > > >

> > > > > Or, people are willing to believe whatever they want to believe...

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > >

> > > That's a crazy video. I think a few things really stood out:

> > > 1) The difference between the hickory 5 iron and the modern 5 iron was averaged to 11% of distance drop off. In nearly 100 years of innovation and design...11%? Contrasted with the driver delta of close to 50%, and I think it supports the argument that you can do more on the engineering side with the large driver head than you can with an iron.

> > > 2) Hickory irons honestly seem like fun. You wouldn't put them in the bag to maximize score, but I definitely think it would be a blast to play some rounds with them.

> > > 3) The modern equipment still has a lot of distance variance. The first 9 iron shot at :42 has about 10 yards of dropoff for being thin. The five iron carry spanned from 207 to 214. I suspect you just can't engineer mishits out of an iron.

> > > 4) If we go back to the earlier point, if all we're talking about is small amounts of improvements due to iron forgiveness, then by necessity, the difference in performance from going from an MB to CB should also be small, right? I totally get that there are a lot of golfers who will claw back every % they possibly can to maximize their game, and I really do respect it. But if the differences are small and hard to pinpoint, and if even the Taylormade M2 can show massive distance dropoffs in the hands of a teaching pro, then it seems like iron choice just really isn't worth getting worked up about. Strive for a good fit and good flight window while playing something that fits your eye, and if you're comfortable with a little bit of sacrifice of performance in the name of fun, that's ok too--since the difference isn't huge.

> >

> > You seem to think 11% is a small number and I have to assume it’s based on perfectly struck shots between the two. If the average golfer hits a 5 iron 185 yards the 11% is 20 yards, that’s huge. Same is true with the MB be CB argument. Any miss that helps me retain maximum MOI is gonna be better than a miss that severely decreases MOI.

>

> But the difference between a modern MB and CB is nowhere near 11%...which is why the drop offs are not as severe as the OEMs would have you believe.

 

The 11% wasn’t in regard to CB vs MB.

[mahonie]

> @BiggErn said:

> > @mahonie said:

> > > @BiggErn said:

> > > > @revanant said:

> > > > > @dciccoritti said:

> > > > > > @agolf1 said:

> > > > > > I just find it interesting that with a new driver, look at how many people rave about increased forgiveness, etc, etc ("when I miss all over the face, it still goes **** yards") whereas with an iron many people believe "a bad swing is a bad swing and there's virtually no difference in clubhead design that will change anything."

> > > > > >

> > > > > > And I'm not disagreeing that drivers have changed over the years and there are different desired attributes with this club/shot. My general point is whether the basic and player's model within any OEM's current offering are that different and/or does it change that much from year-to-year (and yes, sometimes it does but many times it doesn't) to the extent that a "good" and "bad" swing is so readily identifiable vs. with an iron "it makes no difference."

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Or, people are willing to believe whatever they want to believe...

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > That's a crazy video. I think a few things really stood out:

> > > > 1) The difference between the hickory 5 iron and the modern 5 iron was averaged to 11% of distance drop off. In nearly 100 years of innovation and design...11%? Contrasted with the driver delta of close to 50%, and I think it supports the argument that you can do more on the engineering side with the large driver head than you can with an iron.

> > > > 2) Hickory irons honestly seem like fun. You wouldn't put them in the bag to maximize score, but I definitely think it would be a blast to play some rounds with them.

> > > > 3) The modern equipment still has a lot of distance variance. The first 9 iron shot at :42 has about 10 yards of dropoff for being thin. The five iron carry spanned from 207 to 214. I suspect you just can't engineer mishits out of an iron.

> > > > 4) If we go back to the earlier point, if all we're talking about is small amounts of improvements due to iron forgiveness, then by necessity, the difference in performance from going from an MB to CB should also be small, right? I totally get that there are a lot of golfers who will claw back every % they possibly can to maximize their game, and I really do respect it. But if the differences are small and hard to pinpoint, and if even the Taylormade M2 can show massive distance dropoffs in the hands of a teaching pro, then it seems like iron choice just really isn't worth getting worked up about. Strive for a good fit and good flight window while playing something that fits your eye, and if you're comfortable with a little bit of sacrifice of performance in the name of fun, that's ok too--since the difference isn't huge.

> > >

> > > You seem to think 11% is a small number and I have to assume it’s based on perfectly struck shots between the two. If the average golfer hits a 5 iron 185 yards the 11% is 20 yards, that’s huge. Same is true with the MB be CB argument. Any miss that helps me retain maximum MOI is gonna be better than a miss that severely decreases MOI.

> >

> > But the difference between a modern MB and CB is nowhere near 11%...which is why the drop offs are not as severe as the OEMs would have you believe.

>

> The 11% wasn’t in regard to CB vs MB.

 

Apologies. It seemed from your comment that it was implied.

 

@BiggErn would you consider any player’s CB to be equal to your P790s? Reason I ask is that I had the chance to line up the Titleist 718 CBs against my MP4s yesterday and the CBs blade length is noticeably shorter in length. Just curious if it’s just blade length that helps with toe misses.

[revanant]

> @BiggErn said:

> > @revanant said:

> > > @dciccoritti said:

> > > > @agolf1 said:

> > > > I just find it interesting that with a new driver, look at how many people rave about increased forgiveness, etc, etc ("when I miss all over the face, it still goes **** yards") whereas with an iron many people believe "a bad swing is a bad swing and there's virtually no difference in clubhead design that will change anything."

> > > >

> > > > And I'm not disagreeing that drivers have changed over the years and there are different desired attributes with this club/shot. My general point is whether the basic and player's model within any OEM's current offering are that different and/or does it change that much from year-to-year (and yes, sometimes it does but many times it doesn't) to the extent that a "good" and "bad" swing is so readily identifiable vs. with an iron "it makes no difference."

> > > >

> > > > Or, people are willing to believe whatever they want to believe...

> > >

> > >

> > >

> >

> > That's a crazy video. I think a few things really stood out:

> > 1) The difference between the hickory 5 iron and the modern 5 iron was averaged to 11% of distance drop off. In nearly 100 years of innovation and design...11%? Contrasted with the driver delta of close to 50%, and I think it supports the argument that you can do more on the engineering side with the large driver head than you can with an iron.

> > 2) Hickory irons honestly seem like fun. You wouldn't put them in the bag to maximize score, but I definitely think it would be a blast to play some rounds with them.

> > 3) The modern equipment still has a lot of distance variance. The first 9 iron shot at :42 has about 10 yards of dropoff for being thin. The five iron carry spanned from 207 to 214. I suspect you just can't engineer mishits out of an iron.

> > 4) If we go back to the earlier point, if all we're talking about is small amounts of improvements due to iron forgiveness, then by necessity, the difference in performance from going from an MB to CB should also be small, right? I totally get that there are a lot of golfers who will claw back every % they possibly can to maximize their game, and I really do respect it. But if the differences are small and hard to pinpoint, and if even the Taylormade M2 can show massive distance dropoffs in the hands of a teaching pro, then it seems like iron choice just really isn't worth getting worked up about. Strive for a good fit and good flight window while playing something that fits your eye, and if you're comfortable with a little bit of sacrifice of performance in the name of fun, that's ok too--since the difference isn't huge.

>

> You seem to think 11% is a small number and I have to assume it’s based on perfectly struck shots between the two. If the average golfer hits a 5 iron 185 yards the 11% is 20 yards, that’s huge. Same is true with the MB be CB argument. Any miss that helps me retain maximum MOI is gonna be better than a miss that severely decreases MOI.

 

You can look at the video--it's only five minutes.

 

Long story short, not every strike is perfect. And I really do think it's a bit crazy that the gap between the pro's fitted CBs that he uses on tour and a random whippy hickory five iron boils down to 11%--which is only about a club to two clubs of distance. If we got the specs of the hickory five iron, I'd be curious to see the loft and length. But we can see that 1 club disparity when we just look at older lofts vs modern lofts. The driver, on other hand, was a much, much bigger difference.

 

To @mahonie 's point, if the difference between a wood-shafted five iron of random make and model is only 11% off of the current pro's fitted iron, it seems like iron gains due to technology are a bit limited.

 

I hear your point about retaining ballspeed on mishits and wanting to maximize it. I think the point at which this discussion always seems to stumble is that none of us can really put a value on how much benefit actually gets provided, and the answer might actually be different depending on an individual golfer's swing, state of game, choice of iron, and typical miss.

 

If you hand me the M2 from Rick Shiels' video, I might legitimately look at some of those mishits and think "what forgiveness?" It might just be a bad iron design. But if a major manufacturer's leading GI iron doesn't appear to visibly or markedly mprove mishits, it calls into question why I would make a trade-off to play an M2 vs my current irons.

 

If you tell me the benefit of playing a CB vs an MB is 2 yards on a mishit, I might legitimately choose to leave those yards on the table, where another golfer might grab at those yards and be puzzled that anyone would leave any amount of advantage behind.

 

If it turns out the benefit is .5 yards, fewer people might make the trade.

 

If it turns out an iron like the M2 actually performs worse in my hands due to other factors beyond the tech in the head---then it doesn't matter what it says on the box, I'm not playing that iron.

 

I just think sometimes we get bogged down because the amount of help coming from our irons isn't necessarily obvious--or may be more obvious for some folks than it is for others. If you tell me I can work an hour for a prize, and another hour for 5% more, I'd look at it differently if I knew the prize was, in absolute terms, small. If the prize is a dollar, and 5% is an extra nickel, I'll take the dollar and be on my way (or skip the game entirely and go play golf. : ) ).

 

These are mostly just hypothetical points. Personally, I'm obviously open to CBs outperforming my current iron set. The 716 CB in my closet waiting for a lie adjustment is proof of that. If I can get better performance out of the 716 CB, I'll have zero issues bagging them. They certainly look just as great to me as some blades I have in my closet. In fact, I'd like it to happen. Otherwise, I wouldn't have bought the CBs to begin with. Who's against finding and playing an iron set that fits them better?

 

But, if I can't see much of a difference between the 716 CB and the MB on a trackman, I also won't bag them just because they have a "tungsten" label on the toe. It's more ballspeed + better descent + higher backspin or bust, in my book.

 

 

 

 

 

[Exactice808]

> @agolf1 said:

> I just find it interesting that with a new driver, look at how many people rave about increased forgiveness, etc, etc ("when I miss all over the face, it still goes **** yards") whereas with an iron many people believe "a bad swing is a bad swing and there's virtually no difference in clubhead design that will change anything."

>

> And I'm not disagreeing that drivers have changed over the years and there are different desired attributes with this club/shot. My general point is whether the basic and player's model within any OEM's current offering are that different and/or does it change that much from year-to-year (and yes, sometimes it does but many times it doesn't) to the extent that a "good" and "bad" swing is so readily identifiable vs. with an iron "it makes no difference."

>

> Or, people are willing to believe whatever they want to believe...

 

I want to jump into this comment as it is seems relevant to the "defense of blades"

 

1) Rave about Increased forgiveness. Lets address this for DRIVERS specific and then quantify Irons.

 

Drivers have a larger surface area compared to an iron.

Driver's are limited due to design. The limit is 239ct units +/- 18 units.

Drivers thus are known to Flex much more and provide rebound better than irons

Drivers are affected by Buldge and Roll (which affects spin and launch)

Drivers are applying normally the greatest amount of ball speed.

 

With that Measuring 1.5 smash is the legitimate correlation of ballspeed to Swing speed. The highest, compared to say a 6iron, which hovers around 1.38 smash, thats .12 difference which is SUBSTANTIAL when translating ball speed.

 

Ok so the fact is a driver in design has greater move for efficiency over an iron. If we take the center of a driver (actually just a touch high and off to the toe) which provides the 1.5 smash efficiency correct, Yet if we Move away from that area, the smash drops off. Club maker to club maker has been trying to solve this riddle by legally maintaining the highest amount of efficiency farthest away from the sweet spot. Each innovation and generation has been successful in its own right, how much is in the R&D data books at the manufacture. Fact remains, WHILE CT units have BEEN LIMITED, they have been successful of decreasing the efficiency loss. So say 1/4" offset shot, would have dropped the smash dramatically in yesteryear's driver down to 1.35 in comparison to new drivers holding it to 1.40 (again 1.5 being optimal) giving a net .05 increase in retained ball speed. Sounds small, but do the math. 100mph x 1.35 = 135mph ball speed, vs 1.4 = 140mph ball speed, 5mph ball speed can be significant.

 

 

CAN IRONS DO this? At a much much much smaller scale. The face flexes at a small scale etc. The difference is much more minuscule, due to reduced CH speed at the iron level . For an amateur like me.... No net gains, LIKELY better to just learn how to swing the club better than worry about head design.

 

 

 

[Exactice808]

I have a wild Side caveat if anyone wants to try.

I am a self proclaimed mid cap that at the top of my game down to a 7 and back up.

 

I can honestly say truly say that I hit the "middle" if the club WAY more times than not. More so I have done a HUGE swing revamp to address so really bad habits and its taken my game to another level.

 

With that..... I still HIT the middle (not sweet spot per se) But my gaps, launch conditions are VERY consistent. YET when I miss I miss, Its due to a bad swing, I think my mechanics are sound, just lack solid consistency.

 

OK that out of the way..... What makes or why is it justifiable that we should STILL play the most forgiving club we can stand to look at. As that is the more common theme I hear. While the MB enthusiast tout their reasons, the Cavity back ground stands on "forgiveness". Forgiveness is equatable is it not? We KNOW why we need it? YET do we really address it?

 

I have 4 & 5 irons in CB's For a specific reason, the distance drop of on a less then optimal strike. As FACTUAL on less then center strikes the CB maintain greater ball speed then the MB's in 4 & 5 irons. THIS IS my finding. The 4&5's are "less then" scoring irons for me and intended more for distance rather than accuracy and dispersion.

 

So if personally quantify that I strike the center more times than not, I have a distinct distance gap and launch conditions. What is the benefit to me on a miss hit with a CB over an MB? remember this is a miss hit now a lack of mechanics, I inadvertently put a bad swing on the ball. No matter how you slice it, the result will be undesirable regardless if its a MB or CB?

 

There is no guarantee that a CB will self correct and move the ball closer to the hole.... there is just no quantifiable evidence to do so. The only thing it can claim is the greater retention of ball speed on less then center strikes than an MB due to efficiency drop. Thats it..... Face angle open or closed, swing path will send this ball further offline. Yet the freak chance the face is square to target and goes to target, but just shorter then desired. (how often in reality is that)

 

Anyways... just food for discussion thats it nothing else

[BiggErn]

> @Exactice808 said:

> I have a wild Side caveat if anyone wants to try.

> I am a self proclaimed mid cap that at the top of my game down to a 7 and back up.

>

> I can honestly say truly say that I hit the "middle" if the club WAY more times than not. More so I have done a HUGE swing revamp to address so really bad habits and its taken my game to another level.

>

> With that..... I still HIT the middle (not sweet spot per se) But my gaps, launch conditions are VERY consistent. YET when I miss I miss, Its due to a bad swing, I think my mechanics are sound, just lack solid consistency.

>

> OK that out of the way..... What makes or why is it justifiable that we should STILL play the most forgiving club we can stand to look at. As that is the more common theme I hear. While the MB enthusiast tout their reasons, the Cavity back ground stands on "forgiveness". Forgiveness is equatable is it not? We KNOW why we need it? YET do we really address it?

>

> I have 4 & 5 irons in CB's For a specific reason, the distance drop of on a less then optimal strike. As FACTUAL on less then center strikes the CB maintain greater ball speed then the MB's in 4 & 5 irons. THIS IS my finding. The 4&5's are "less then" scoring irons for me and intended more for distance rather than accuracy and dispersion.

>

> So if personally quantify that I strike the center more times than not, I have a distinct distance gap and launch conditions. What is the benefit to me on a miss hit with a CB over an MB? remember this is a miss hit now a lack of mechanics, I inadvertently put a bad swing on the ball. No matter how you slice it, the result will be undesirable regardless if its a MB or CB?

>

> There is no guarantee that a CB will self correct and move the ball closer to the hole.... there is just no quantifiable evidence to do so. The only thing it can claim is the greater retention of ball speed on less then center strikes than an MB due to efficiency drop. Thats it..... Face angle open or closed, swing path will send this ball further offline. Yet the freak chance the face is square to target and goes to target, but just shorter then desired. (how often in reality is that)

>

> Anyways... just food for discussion thats it nothing else

 

Not every miss is the same and you’re trying to lump a bad swing in with less than perfect contact. Not the same. I can put a decent swing on the ball and hit a little off center. There are plenty of guys who hit the sweet spot way more often than not and use CBs throughout the set. You also insinuate for some reason that CBS are less accurate. The “further offline” is a crap argument as well as that is solely a swing issue and has nothing to do with the club.

[Exactice808]

> @BiggErn said:

> > @Exactice808 said:

> > I have a wild Side caveat if anyone wants to try.

> > I am a self proclaimed mid cap that at the top of my game down to a 7 and back up.

> >

> > I can honestly say truly say that I hit the "middle" if the club WAY more times than not. More so I have done a HUGE swing revamp to address so really bad habits and its taken my game to another level.

> >

> > With that..... I still HIT the middle (not sweet spot per se) But my gaps, launch conditions are VERY consistent. YET when I miss I miss, Its due to a bad swing, I think my mechanics are sound, just lack solid consistency.

> >

> > OK that out of the way..... What makes or why is it justifiable that we should STILL play the most forgiving club we can stand to look at. As that is the more common theme I hear. While the MB enthusiast tout their reasons, the Cavity back ground stands on "forgiveness". Forgiveness is equatable is it not? We KNOW why we need it? YET do we really address it?

> >

> > I have 4 & 5 irons in CB's For a specific reason, the distance drop of on a less then optimal strike. As FACTUAL on less then center strikes the CB maintain greater ball speed then the MB's in 4 & 5 irons. THIS IS my finding. The 4&5's are "less then" scoring irons for me and intended more for distance rather than accuracy and dispersion.

> >

> > So if personally quantify that I strike the center more times than not, I have a distinct distance gap and launch conditions. What is the benefit to me on a miss hit with a CB over an MB? remember this is a miss hit now a lack of mechanics, I inadvertently put a bad swing on the ball. No matter how you slice it, the result will be undesirable regardless if its a MB or CB?

> >

> > There is no guarantee that a CB will self correct and move the ball closer to the hole.... there is just no quantifiable evidence to do so. The only thing it can claim is the greater retention of ball speed on less then center strikes than an MB due to efficiency drop. Thats it..... Face angle open or closed, swing path will send this ball further offline. Yet the freak chance the face is square to target and goes to target, but just shorter then desired. (how often in reality is that)

> >

> > Anyways... just food for discussion thats it nothing else

>

> Not every miss is the same and you’re trying to lump a bad swing in with less than perfect contact. Not the same. I can put a decent swing on the ball and hit a little off center. There are plenty of guys who hit the sweet spot way more often than not and use CBs throughout the set. You also insinuate for some reason that CBS are less accurate. The “further offline” is a crap argument as well as that is solely a swing issue and has nothing to do with the club.

 

100% agree each miss is not the same.. Thats why is hard to justify that More forgiving equals better score. I dont know what the effect until the ball comes to rest, so to me I have not found equitable validity that the Cavity backs benefit me specifically as golfer.

100% as well...sorry the further offline was not intended to say the CB was WORSE, my apologies as it came out wrong. It was meant that I agree that it will go further.... period. than a missed MB. how much is the question and direction is unknown, BUT you further validate my point. The club does not define the score, the swing does. If you have decent mechanics the club head is meaningless. Want to guess, that if TW took a set of cavity backs to his visual preference. Dropped in his X100' he would should a similar 1 day score similar to his TW P7's?

 

Want to guess, that @revanant, I think his core issue is his shaft choice, the Mizunos in the MB's likely had the PX6.0 in them as a factory offering to which NOTHING about his Sim numbers say he should be in a set of PX 6.0, I have a lot more swing speed then he does and he plays the SAME shafts as I do? a little hard to believe, YET, I wonder if we got him some PX 5.0's or Nippon 105R or Dynalite R300's..... care to guess what outcomes he might get?

 

The shaft pairing and swing to me play a MUCH greater role then the head itself.....

[BiggErn]

> @Exactice808 said:

> > @BiggErn said:

> > > @Exactice808 said:

> > > I have a wild Side caveat if anyone wants to try.

> > > I am a self proclaimed mid cap that at the top of my game down to a 7 and back up.

> > >

> > > I can honestly say truly say that I hit the "middle" if the club WAY more times than not. More so I have done a HUGE swing revamp to address so really bad habits and its taken my game to another level.

> > >

> > > With that..... I still HIT the middle (not sweet spot per se) But my gaps, launch conditions are VERY consistent. YET when I miss I miss, Its due to a bad swing, I think my mechanics are sound, just lack solid consistency.

> > >

> > > OK that out of the way..... What makes or why is it justifiable that we should STILL play the most forgiving club we can stand to look at. As that is the more common theme I hear. While the MB enthusiast tout their reasons, the Cavity back ground stands on "forgiveness". Forgiveness is equatable is it not? We KNOW why we need it? YET do we really address it?

> > >

> > > I have 4 & 5 irons in CB's For a specific reason, the distance drop of on a less then optimal strike. As FACTUAL on less then center strikes the CB maintain greater ball speed then the MB's in 4 & 5 irons. THIS IS my finding. The 4&5's are "less then" scoring irons for me and intended more for distance rather than accuracy and dispersion.

> > >

> > > So if personally quantify that I strike the center more times than not, I have a distinct distance gap and launch conditions. What is the benefit to me on a miss hit with a CB over an MB? remember this is a miss hit now a lack of mechanics, I inadvertently put a bad swing on the ball. No matter how you slice it, the result will be undesirable regardless if its a MB or CB?

> > >

> > > There is no guarantee that a CB will self correct and move the ball closer to the hole.... there is just no quantifiable evidence to do so. The only thing it can claim is the greater retention of ball speed on less then center strikes than an MB due to efficiency drop. Thats it..... Face angle open or closed, swing path will send this ball further offline. Yet the freak chance the face is square to target and goes to target, but just shorter then desired. (how often in reality is that)

> > >

> > > Anyways... just food for discussion thats it nothing else

> >

> > Not every miss is the same and you’re trying to lump a bad swing in with less than perfect contact. Not the same. I can put a decent swing on the ball and hit a little off center. There are plenty of guys who hit the sweet spot way more often than not and use CBs throughout the set. You also insinuate for some reason that CBS are less accurate. The “further offline” is a crap argument as well as that is solely a swing issue and has nothing to do with the club.

>

> 100% agree each miss is not the same.. Thats why is hard to justify that More forgiving equals better score. I dont know what the effect until the ball comes to rest, so to me I have not found equitable validity that the Cavity backs benefit me specifically as golfer.

> 100% as well...sorry the further offline was not intended to say the CB was WORSE, my apologies as it came out wrong. It was meant that I agree that it will go further.... period. than a missed MB. how much is the question and direction is unknown, BUT you further validate my point. The club does not define the score, the swing does. If you have decent mechanics the club head is meaningless. Want to guess, that if TW took a set of cavity backs to his visual preference. Dropped in his X100' he would should a similar 1 day score similar to his TW P7's?

>

> Want to guess, that @revanant, I think his core issue is his shaft choice, the Mizunos in the MB's likely had the PX6.0 in them as a factory offering to which NOTHING about his Sim numbers say he should be in a set of PX 6.0, I have a lot more swing speed then he does and he plays the SAME shafts as I do? a little hard to believe, YET, I wonder if we got him some PX 5.0's or Nippon 105R or Dynalite R300's..... care to guess what outcomes he might get?

>

> The shaft pairing and swing to me play a MUCH greater role then the head itself.....

 

No club can guarantee a better score but one would have to think that retaining optimum ball speed on a mishit would be better than not. There’s also no guarantee a CB will travel farther on an offline shot. You can still hit the ball solid with an open or closed clubface and since one argument is MBs are more “workable” that should mean they have the potential to go as far and even farther offline. Tiger could play any club with any shaft and play them well. Rev may not be optimally fit for clubs or shaft but I don’t think I would be comparing anything to do with Tiger to a 20+ HC.

[Exactice808]

> @BiggErn said:

 

> No club can guarantee a better score but one would have to think that retaining optimum ball speed on a mishit would be better than not. There’s also no guarantee a CB will travel farther on an offline shot. You can still hit the ball solid with an open or closed clubface and since one argument is MBs are more “workable” that should mean they have the potential to go as far and even farther offline. Tiger could play any club with any shaft and play them well. Rev may not be optimally fit for clubs or shaft but I don’t think I would be comparing anything to do with Tiger to a 20+ HC.

 

Your basis of assumption is CORRECT I cannot disagree.... Again if I may edify that my comments are based on my experiences alone, with the assumption that others may fall in my category as well and I am not 1 out of a billion.

 

MB's maybe more workable or should we say the CG, applies more side spin than a CB due to perimeter weight? Again my apologies as "Further" offline was again intended on distance due to ball speed, not dispersion as once the ball has left is target line, it is now a missed shot.

 

 

I DONT think Tiger could Play any club and any shaft and play well. I think He know what allows him to play well so a specified club make up is required. I doubt he could play a set of Graphite 55gram A flex in MB's and play well, I think the SHAFT would need to be constant, be it X100/PX6.5/KBS Ctaper X etc etc. And then apply a club head that makes sense. So M6's vs P760 vs P790 vs P7TW would negligible if the "Swing is sound"

 

I am NOT comparing TW and Revanent I am stating that the shaft make up is paramount to the players SWINGS/Swing profile. Then the Heads are intended to tweak to ball flight/launch conditions.

 

 

[Titleist_PT23]

> @Exactice808 said:

> > @agolf1 said:

> > I just find it interesting that with a new driver, look at how many people rave about increased forgiveness, etc, etc ("when I miss all over the face, it still goes **** yards") whereas with an iron many people believe "a bad swing is a bad swing and there's virtually no difference in clubhead design that will change anything."

> >

> > And I'm not disagreeing that drivers have changed over the years and there are different desired attributes with this club/shot. My general point is whether the basic and player's model within any OEM's current offering are that different and/or does it change that much from year-to-year (and yes, sometimes it does but many times it doesn't) to the extent that a "good" and "bad" swing is so readily identifiable vs. with an iron "it makes no difference."

> >

> > Or, people are willing to believe whatever they want to believe...

>

> I want to jump into this comment as it is seems relevant to the "defense of blades"

>

> 1) Rave about Increased forgiveness. Lets address this for DRIVERS specific and then quantify Irons.

>

> Drivers have a larger surface area compared to an iron.

> Driver's are limited due to design. The limit is 239ct units +/- 18 units.

> Drivers thus are known to Flex much more and provide rebound better than irons

> Drivers are affected by Buldge and Roll (which affects spin and launch)

> Drivers are applying normally the greatest amount of ball speed.

>

> With that Measuring 1.5 smash is the legitimate correlation of ballspeed to Swing speed. The highest, compared to say a 6iron, which hovers around 1.38 smash, thats .12 difference which is SUBSTANTIAL when translating ball speed.

>

> Ok so the fact is a driver in design has greater move for efficiency over an iron. If we take the center of a driver (actually just a touch high and off to the toe) which provides the 1.5 smash efficiency correct, Yet if we Move away from that area, the smash drops off. Club maker to club maker has been trying to solve this riddle by legally maintaining the highest amount of efficiency farthest away from the sweet spot. Each innovation and generation has been successful in its own right, how much is in the R&D data books at the manufacture. Fact remains, WHILE CT units have BEEN LIMITED, they have been successful of decreasing the efficiency loss. So say 1/4" offset shot, would have dropped the smash dramatically in yesteryear's driver down to 1.35 in comparison to new drivers holding it to 1.40 (again 1.5 being optimal) giving a net .05 increase in retained ball speed. Sounds small, but do the math. 100mph x 1.35 = 135mph ball speed, vs 1.4 = 140mph ball speed, 5mph ball speed can be significant.

>

>

> CAN IRONS DO this? At a much much much smaller scale. The face flexes at a small scale etc. The difference is much more minuscule, due to reduced CH speed at the iron level . For an amateur like me.... No net gains, LIKELY better to just learn how to swing the club better than worry about head design.

You can say and believe whatever you want. That's my point - people do it all the time just to justify what they think (everyone, all different kinds of topics). Note, I never said which argument I believed more (drivers or irons); I only said that it seems odd that they can both be true in the absolutes that people speak about.

 

But a new driver won't save a swing with face/path issues like you point out either. Also, if you are good (and we know everyone here is sooooooooo good) and you hit the middle, the difference is also tiny if the club is well fit (Adam Scott played a 910 this last year, Spieth has played the last model of drivers from time to time).

 

It's just funny that a blade helps someone concentrate and the feedback is helpful yet no one wants that with a driver (use a 340 cc 983E). And yes, drivers are distance, not direction clubs but if the "grooving of you swing" with a more difficult to hit club help you hit the centre every time (or at least substantially more often - if it wasn't there would be no reason to use the harder to hit club) it would be better than just launching it out there somewhere.

[revanant]

I agree about the shaft choice. I really like the Apex 4 shafts in my Hogans, which I think line up to Dynalite s300. I think they’re out of production—not sure what the current equivalent is.

 

When I get my lie adjusted on the CBs, I plan to play around with shafts in the new MP-20s and use it as a proxy to see if a shaft change for my MP-4s should be done.

[Titleist_PT23]

> @revanant said:

> I agree about the shaft choice. I really like the Apex 4 shafts in my Hogans, which I think line up to Dynalite s300. I think they’re out of production—not sure what the current equivalent is.

>

> When I get my lie adjusted on the CBs, I plan to play around with shafts in the new MP-20s and use it as a proxy to see if a shaft change for my MP-4s should be done.

I'm not 100% sure. I think the Dynalites were about 115 grams and the tip section was much softer than DG (I had this shaft in some wedges and liked it quite a bit but the tips became bent). The DG 115s are about the same weight, although I don't know how the tip section matches up. TT also made some XP 115s a while back although these may be quite a bit softer (hard to compare classifications over time).

[Exactice808]

> @agolf1 said:

 

> You can say and believe whatever you want. That's my point - people do it all the time just to justify what they think (everyone, all different kinds of topics). Note, I never said which argument I believed more (drivers or irons); I only said that it seems odd that they can both be true in the absolutes that people speak about.

>

> But a new driver won't save a swing with face/path issues like you point out either. Also, if you are good (and we know everyone here is sooooooooo good) and you hit the middle, the difference is also tiny if the club is well fit (Adam Scott played a 910 this last year, Spieth has played the last model of drivers from time to time).

>

> It's just funny that a blade helps someone concentrate and the feedback is helpful yet no one wants that with a driver (use a 340 cc 983E). And yes, drivers are distance, not direction clubs but if the "grooving of you swing" with a more difficult to hit club help you hit the centre every time (or at least substantially more often - if it wasn't there would be no reason to use the harder to hit club) it would be better than just launching it out there somewhere.

>

Yes in all fairness, People Do it ALL the time, say what they think, hard part is gotta dive into the nitty gritty to really get it.

 

With that again, you edify, a new Driver wont save swing face/path issues, NOR will a SGI, GI, Players GI or CB....

As you stated Yes if you hit the middle to which I stated the smash is 1.5 or the governing body restricts the CT units, 1998 started with a .822 COR then moved to Coefficient of time That being SAID, Any club generated after say 2007 is MAXED OUT at center so YES a 910 is just as HOT as a TS3. What has changed again is increased ball-speed further from center, CG movement to manipulate spin and launch. YET pound for pound we are stuck at .830 or 257 ct units.

 

Ill be the next to say "ITS STUPID" when people say blades make them concentrated better....I lied to my self years ago... No, good practice makes you concentrate more, it can be with a broom handle, yard stick or my kids plastic club, it does not have to be a blade. As if no one wants that in a driver?

 

Well there is 2 parts, 460cc greater face to increase your strike location (goor or miss). What is the GOAL of a driver, to hit it as far as you can (normally) Its a point Area Target, meaning you goal is to hit a fairway 30+ yards wide. I dont know that many people that have a flag in a fair way and they are trying to get it in a whole. While some pick a specific target, you want it to go as FAR as possible.

 

What is an Irons? a Point TARGET tool to which you are aiming at a flag with a hole 4.25" WE are all aiming at a flag to get it in the hole with an iron (generally). And we assume to have the most consistent distance with said Iron. having a HOT face or a face that flexes so much would create such an inconsistency you would never know iron to use on a 150 yard par 3, you need a club that hits consistent and misses consistent.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[chisag]

... Here are 2 examples. I have played Z Forged my last couple rounds. I had 180 to a pin tucked over a bunker. I hit my 5 iron 185 and it was 171 to clear the bunker. Good shot is a little long and a bad shot is still on the green. I hit it just a little thin, a shot that would be much better with my P760's, but it hit and stuck in the bank of the bunker because it came out a little low with less spin and just missed clearing the bunker. Later in the round I hit a knockdown into a good 15 mph wind. 149 and hit a 6 iron a little on the toe. Shot came out a little low and turning right. This hole has a deep bunker with very thick rough surrounding it making it much better to be in the sand but my shot buried in the grass. Again, my P760 would be on the fringe. I am sure I missed the dead center on several more shots but none were any better or worse than my P760's.

 

... I think many MB aficionado's would be pretty happy with those results. But for me, it is those one or two shots a round that may or may not make a difference in my score. The other irony is the P760's have a smaller profile at address than the Z Forged MB's and I like their look. The P760's feel almost as good in the pw-8 and darned close in the 7-4 irons. So for me, the choice is easy but the Z Forged are really nice and I get why some play them, especially if score is not your #1 goal.

[dciccoritti]

@chisag said:

> ... Here are 2 examples. I have played Z Forged my last couple rounds. I had 180 to a pin tucked over a bunker. I hit my 5 iron 185 and it was 171 to clear the bunker. Good shot is a little long and a bad shot is still on the green. I hit it jut a little thin, a shot that would be much better with my P760's, but it hit and stuck in the bank of the bunker because it came out a little low with less spin and just missed clearing the bunker. Later in the round I hit a knockdown into a good 15 mph wind. 149 and hit a 6 iron a little on the toe. Shot came out a little low and turning right. This hole has a deep bunker with very thick rough surrounding it making it much better to be in the sand but my shot buried in the grass. Again, my P760 would be on the fringe. I am sure I missed the dead center on several more shots but none were any better or worse than my P760's.

>

> ... I think many MB aficionado's would be pretty happy with those results. But for me, it is those one or two shots a round that may or may not make a difference in my score. The other irony is the P760's have a smaller profile at address than the Z Forged MB's and I like their look. The P760's feel almost as good in the pw-8 and darned close in the 7-4 irons. So for me, the choice is easy but the Z Forged are really nice and I get why some play them, especially of score is not your #1 goal.

 

Hmmm....interesting. The last round I played I hit quite a few slightly thin. I was working on keeping a wider arc on the backswing, so bottom was a little off. I hit an 8 iron a little thin that had a nice mid/high trajectory but left me 3 yards short. Also hit a 6 iron the same way with the same trajectory and landed a good 6 yards short. 9 iron about 2 yards short and another 6 iron 1 yard short. All thins. All mid to high trajectory. For reference my 5 is 29 degrees and carries 180.

 

You hit about 15 to 16 yards short and you call it a little thin? Maybe that's the problem here. Your interpretation of calling a complete mishit "a little thin". There is no way your 760's or 790's would have done anything different on those shots other than maybe give you the the comfort and confidence to put a better, more relaxed move over the ball. Just to be clear, same swing, different clubs, same results,

 

This is as funny as @balls_deep saying he hit 2 identical shots with a CB and an MB and the MB went into the water while the CB went pin high.

 

You guys are killing me ?

[revanant]

> @chisag said:

> ... Here are 2 examples. I have played Z Forged my last couple rounds. I had 180 to a pin tucked over a bunker. I hit my 5 iron 185 and it was 171 to clear the bunker. Good shot is a little long and a bad shot is still on the green. I hit it jut a little thin, a shot that would be much better with my P760's, but it hit and stuck in the bank of the bunker because it came out a little low with less spin and just missed clearing the bunker. Later in the round I hit a knockdown into a good 15 mph wind. 149 and hit a 6 iron a little on the toe. Shot came out a little low and turning right. This hole has a deep bunker with very thick rough surrounding it making it much better to be in the sand but my shot buried in the grass. Again, my P760 would be on the fringe. I am sure I missed the dead center on several more shots but none were any better or worse than my P760's.

>

> ... I think many MB aficionado's would be pretty happy with those results. But for me, it is those one or two shots a round that may or may not make a difference in my score. The other irony is the P760's have a smaller profile at address than the Z Forged MB's and I like their look. The P760's feel almost as good in the pw-8 and darned close in the 7-4 irons. So for me, the choice is easy but the Z Forged are really nice and I get why some play them, especially of score is not your #1 goal.

So, to this point, it’s part of the reason why I think having the MP-4s in the bag is helpful.

 

I can put a good strike on the ball and hit my target, and it’s important for me to develop a consistent pre-shot routine and confidence so that my best swing comes out. When everything comes together, it’s really a big confidence boost.

 

If I miss or mess up, it’s also ok. I’m in the learning phase. My game is incomplete and I need to take my lumps. If my ball comes up short and I wind up in the sand or water, it’s a good lesson for me. Normally, the culprit is either having chosen too dangerous or aggressive of a target for me, or having taken the wrong club. With a pin near a bunker or an edge, my smarter play should probably be to aim for the middle of the green and work on my lag putting.

 

But, since my rounds are basically practice, and I can use all sorts of on course practice, I’m not sure I’m doing myself any favors if I get a thin mishit and dodge a bunker. Since I’m still pretty fresh, I can probably use both the bunker practice and the lesson about having thinned my iron and whatever caused it—whether it was uneven lie, poor pre-shot routine, bad weight shift, etc.

[nsxguy]

> @aenemated said:

> What I find most interesting about this discussion is how much other people care what irons other people play.

>

> The thing with blades is - they don't lie to you. They tell you to be better. Practice. Work. Learn. Treat them properly and you will be rewarded. Treat them poorly and you will suffer.

>

> I dunno man; I prefer honesty. But if you wanna think you can hit an 8 iron 180 yards; you do you, bro.

 

And they make you concentrate more. Don't forget that one. LMAO

[dciccoritti]

> @nsxguy said:

> > @aenemated said:

> > What I find most interesting about this discussion is how much other people care what irons other people play.

> >

> > The thing with blades is - they don't lie to you. They tell you to be better. Practice. Work. Learn. Treat them properly and you will be rewarded. Treat them poorly and you will suffer.

> >

> > I dunno man; I prefer honesty. But if you wanna think you can hit an 8 iron 180 yards; you do you, bro.

>

> And they make you concentrate more. Don't forget that one. LMAO

 


 

 

 

[Titleist_PT23]

> @dciccoritti said:

> > @nsxguy said:

> > > @aenemated said:

> > > What I find most interesting about this discussion is how much other people care what irons other people play.

> > >

> > > The thing with blades is - they don't lie to you. They tell you to be better. Practice. Work. Learn. Treat them properly and you will be rewarded. Treat them poorly and you will suffer.

> > >

> > > I dunno man; I prefer honesty. But if you wanna think you can hit an 8 iron 180 yards; you do you, bro.

> >

> > And they make you concentrate more. Don't forget that one. LMAO

>

> 

>

>

>


 

[Titleist_PT23]

> @revanant said:

> > @chisag said:

> > ... Here are 2 examples. I have played Z Forged my last couple rounds. I had 180 to a pin tucked over a bunker. I hit my 5 iron 185 and it was 171 to clear the bunker. Good shot is a little long and a bad shot is still on the green. I hit it jut a little thin, a shot that would be much better with my P760's, but it hit and stuck in the bank of the bunker because it came out a little low with less spin and just missed clearing the bunker. Later in the round I hit a knockdown into a good 15 mph wind. 149 and hit a 6 iron a little on the toe. Shot came out a little low and turning right. This hole has a deep bunker with very thick rough surrounding it making it much better to be in the sand but my shot buried in the grass. Again, my P760 would be on the fringe. I am sure I missed the dead center on several more shots but none were any better or worse than my P760's.

> >

> > ... I think many MB aficionado's would be pretty happy with those results. But for me, it is those one or two shots a round that may or may not make a difference in my score. The other irony is the P760's have a smaller profile at address than the Z Forged MB's and I like their look. The P760's feel almost as good in the pw-8 and darned close in the 7-4 irons. So for me, the choice is easy but the Z Forged are really nice and I get why some play them, especially of score is not your #1 goal.

> So, to this point, it’s part of the reason why I think having the MP-4s in the bag is helpful.

>

> I can put a good strike on the ball and hit my target, and it’s important for me to develop a consistent pre-shot routine and confidence so that my best swing comes out. When everything comes together, it’s really a big confidence boost.

>

> If I miss or mess up, it’s also ok. I’m in the learning phase. My game is incomplete and I need to take my lumps. If my ball comes up short and I wind up in the sand or water, it’s a good lesson for me. Normally, the culprit is either having chosen too dangerous or aggressive of a target for me, or having taken the wrong club. With a pin near a bunker or an edge, my smarter play should probably be to aim for the middle of the green and work on my lag putting.

>

> But, since my rounds are basically practice, and I can use all sorts of on course practice, I’m not sure I’m doing myself any favors if I get a thin mishit and dodge a bunker. Since I’m still pretty fresh, I can probably use both the bunker practice and the lesson about having thinned my iron and whatever caused it—whether it was uneven lie, poor pre-shot routine, bad weight shift, etc.

This is all just justifying what you want to do. I'm entirely fine with you hitting your MP-4s. There may or may not be a benefit from another type of club, and if there is the amount would likely be fairly small anyways. And whatever choice you make will have little impact on where you are 1 year, 2, years, or 5 years from now.

 

But,

a) I would guess that "normally" or as in most of the time, your bad shots are not due to simply a bad line or pulling the wrong club. You are not missing 6 or 9 greens on average due to perfect swings with one of the faults above. You are missing (I'd bet the majority of them) with bad swings (either contact or face/path issues).

b) your rounds are still rounds. If you want to improve, you should still strive to see some progress in shooting lower scores when you play. Saying that you are happy ending up in bad spots because it's a lesson is just hilarious. You can learn and practice all of the good things like routine and confidence with any club. You can also go to the practice green, drop 20 balls, and pretend you just hit your approach shots there.

 

Again, I'm saying nothing about whether a different iron head would put you in a different spot. I'm just saying that your perspective and rationale make absolutely no sense. You could go buy some left-handed clubs, flip them around, give it a whack, and be happy dribbling it around the course all day in the name of practice too (I bet you'll be in all kinds of bunkers, trees, and native areas with this strategy). Would anyone actually suggest that?

 

Every golfer, regardless of ability, screws up when they play. And when we are trying something new there is no need to beat ourselves up excessively, But I think you still need to take the score semi-seriously when you play. It is the most important measure in evaluating our improvement.

[MelloYello]

> @revanant said:

>

> I can put a good strike on the ball and hit my target, and it’s important for me to develop a consistent pre-shot routine and confidence so that my best swing comes out. When everything comes together, it’s really a big confidence boost.

>

> If I miss or mess up, it’s also ok. I’m in the learning phase. My game is incomplete and I need to take my lumps. If my ball comes up short and I wind up in the sand or water, it’s a good lesson for me. Normally, the culprit is either having chosen too dangerous or aggressive of a target for me, or having taken the wrong club. With a pin near a bunker or an edge, my smarter play should probably be to aim for the middle of the green and work on my lag putting.

>

> But, since my rounds are basically practice, and I can use all sorts of on course practice, I’m not sure I’m doing myself any favors if I get a thin mishit and dodge a bunker. Since I’m still pretty fresh, I can probably use both the bunker practice and the lesson about having thinned my iron and whatever caused it—whether it was uneven lie, poor pre-shot routine, bad weight shift, etc.

 

Jeez dude...maybe I'm wrong but I think you need to relax and just play golf. Hit a shot. Forget about whatever you did. Play the next shot. Record the score. Practice what you need to in between rounds. IMHO, it sounds like you need to simplify. I'm getting a headache just reading you describe your reactions, over-analyzing every mistake you make, shot after shot.

 

Let me tell you where your pathway leads...you keep telling yourself that at some point you'll get serious about score and that for now it's all just "practice." Only thing is, that excuse is dangerous and deadly. It's like, _'no worries, I have my whole life to get in the gym and drop this 20 lbs. No need to start today. I'll start next week!'_

 

Problem is, that same rationale is going to get applied next week and the week after until a year goes by and instead of dropping 20 you gained another 20 doing the same bad stuff. Now you have to drop 40-lbs and you're realizing you have no self-control. And then you're going to secretly hate yourself for not improving as you could've and for doing something incredibly stupid. And then you're going to post about how you're having some crisis and want to quit the game, LOL.

 

Seriously, it happens all the time around here. People don't face their demons. They spend countless hours obsessing about something that probably never mattered very much like how pure they were hitting their 6-iron and all of a sudden they end up shooting their worst scores ever because they forget to play with the mindset that every shot matters. A 98 beats a 99 just the same as a 62 beats a 63.

 

If you're not motivated by your scorecard then it's not possible to be motivated about practice. You'll bounce from one thing to the next: head down, take it back like _this_, shift your weight, bring the handle through like _that_, etc.

 

Nobody really cares what clubs you use. I'd just like to see you be less obsessed with the reasons why you hit a poor shot. Stop saying your rounds are just practice. That's a loser's mindset, dude. That's totally something a weak person says to try and protect his ego. Instead of bouncing back, you tell yourself "it doesn't matter" that you started with 3 double bogeys. All rounds are practice in the sense you're getting reps. Sure. But every round counts and your actual score has to matter more to you than your mechanics if you ever want to actually improve.

 

There are always going to be reasons why something went poorly whether it's an entire round or just a single shot. All you'll come up with a list of 1,000 different "lessons," none of which really mean anything. _"Oh, that last one came out thin. I'd better keep my head down next time!"_

 

 

 

[revanant]

I didn’t miss 6 of 9 greens with irons. I’m missing 6 of 9 greens in regulation, which is a different consideration. I only had 6 approach shots with an iron.

 

I hit the green with an iron from the tee on holes 2, 4, and 9. I was well within 10 yards on holes 1, 3 and 6. I had wedges into the green on 7 and 8.

 

On hole 6, a par 5, I missed the GIR but was just on the fringe about 10 feet from the pin. I made par with a nice lag putt and tap in, though it would show up as a 1 putt and “chip.” So, accurate shot for par—no complaints. (+4 good iron shots)

 

Hole 1 I came up a little short of the front pin, but it was online and a good strike. It was just the wrong club-about half a club short of the green after roll. I had Hogan Apex Redlines in the bag, and it was my first time out on a course with them. I hit a 9, and probably should have hit an 8. I made bogey. We can call it a stroke lost to iron choice of cb vs blade, if being conservative. (-1 iron shot)

 

Hole 3 had the same awkward shot as last week, front pin with a ridge behind/left of the front and sand on the right. I hit a little long and wound up on the ridge again. The way the hole lies, I’m typically hitting into the green from the side, rather than straight on, and going for the middle of the green brings the bunker into play. (+0 iron shot—went long but not a mishit, just a narrow window)

 

Hole #5 is usually outside of my length to reach it in 2. It’s a long par 4–plays about 430, uphill, so there’s no roll on drives. I’ve made par on that hole once, and it was with a long 3 wood and a nice wedge from 30 yards out.

I had a wedge in again this week, so no iron shot.

 

Holes 7 and 8 also had wedges into the green. Hole 7 required a recovery shot from rough that put me 30 yards from the pin. Of course, lying 2, I shanked my 30 yard pitch. Like, 15 feet total distance and dead right. Bad hole result, but a short game issue. (Hence, why I honestly lose most of my strokes from 50 yards and in. I think it’ll definitely improve with experience and time on the course.)

 

Hole 8 actually had a great iron shot that wouldn’t show up in score. I wound up in a fairway bunker from my second shot (same as last week). I grabbed my 6 iron and managed a great shot that went about 130 with height from the sand, despite having to hover the club. Really a big highlight from the round, especially given the clubs I was using. (+1 iron shot).

 

So, on 9 holes, I had 5 good iron shots (3 GIR, one on fringe for par, one mid-iron from sand), 1 bad iron shot (short of green), and 1 neutral shot (long but on line). I’ll take 5 out of 7.

 

I hit an iron towards 6 greens, and had 4 good results.

 

Practically, I also think the volume of iron shots I’m taking is low enough that my short game and putting deserve the immediate priority, with a longer term focus on building clubhead speed through fitness and training. : )

 

 

[MelloYello]

@revanant

 

One thing I'd share is something I tried a few weeks back that I think I'll continue once work slows down. I was leaving work at 5:30-ish and going straight to the course. Instead of hitting the range or playing a normal 9 holes from my typical tees I was taking a handful of irons/wedges and teeing off from the ladies tees.

 

First of all, this was great because the tees are spotless since no one ever hits from there, LOL. But what was great was that I gave myself a bunch of easy mid-irons out into the fairway. I could hit 2-3 shots into the middle of the fairway working on my general swing. Then I'd have a short iron or wedge to the green with each from where I could work on my scoring.

 

I couldn't believe how quick I was able to play this way, too. The first time out I think I shot somewhere around even par with a couple birdies and a couple of 3-putt bogeys. If I recall I think I even had some sort of chip-in eagle at some point.

 

Anyhow, I got a TON of work in that week with my full swing, my irons and my wedges and what was great was that I NEVER ONCE hit the range, LOL.

 

I honestly don't know if I'll ever hit the range again when I can just go and do that.

 

There are so many advantages to doing that. You get more exercise. You get real on-course practice. You get to keep score. You consistently putt for birdie!!! And of course you never ever lose a ball.

 

I can't tell you what a good time I had. I really think that's the way to practice. If you're looking for something fun, give it a try. I have a light-weight Sunday bag I use which holds about 7-8 clubs. You don't even feel that on your back. It's great.

[dciccoritti]

> @agolf1 said:

> > @revanant said:

> > > @chisag said:

> > > ... Here are 2 examples. I have played Z Forged my last couple rounds. I had 180 to a pin tucked over a bunker. I hit my 5 iron 185 and it was 171 to clear the bunker. Good shot is a little long and a bad shot is still on the green. I hit it jut a little thin, a shot that would be much better with my P760's, but it hit and stuck in the bank of the bunker because it came out a little low with less spin and just missed clearing the bunker. Later in the round I hit a knockdown into a good 15 mph wind. 149 and hit a 6 iron a little on the toe. Shot came out a little low and turning right. This hole has a deep bunker with very thick rough surrounding it making it much better to be in the sand but my shot buried in the grass. Again, my P760 would be on the fringe. I am sure I missed the dead center on several more shots but none were any better or worse than my P760's.

> > >

> > > ... I think many MB aficionado's would be pretty happy with those results. But for me, it is those one or two shots a round that may or may not make a difference in my score. The other irony is the P760's have a smaller profile at address than the Z Forged MB's and I like their look. The P760's feel almost as good in the pw-8 and darned close in the 7-4 irons. So for me, the choice is easy but the Z Forged are really nice and I get why some play them, especially of score is not your #1 goal.

> > So, to this point, it’s part of the reason why I think having the MP-4s in the bag is helpful.

> >

> > I can put a good strike on the ball and hit my target, and it’s important for me to develop a consistent pre-shot routine and confidence so that my best swing comes out. When everything comes together, it’s really a big confidence boost.

> >

> > If I miss or mess up, it’s also ok. I’m in the learning phase. My game is incomplete and I need to take my lumps. If my ball comes up short and I wind up in the sand or water, it’s a good lesson for me. Normally, the culprit is either having chosen too dangerous or aggressive of a target for me, or having taken the wrong club. With a pin near a bunker or an edge, my smarter play should probably be to aim for the middle of the green and work on my lag putting.

> >

> > But, since my rounds are basically practice, and I can use all sorts of on course practice, I’m not sure I’m doing myself any favors if I get a thin mishit and dodge a bunker. Since I’m still pretty fresh, I can probably use both the bunker practice and the lesson about having thinned my iron and whatever caused it—whether it was uneven lie, poor pre-shot routine, bad weight shift, etc.

> This is all just justifying what you want to do. I'm entirely fine with you hitting your MP-4s. There may or may not be a benefit from another type of club, and if there is the amount would likely be fairly small anyways. And whatever choice you make will have little impact on where you are 1 year, 2, years, or 5 years from now.

>

> But,

> a) I would guess that "normally" or as in most of the time, your bad shots are not due to simply a bad line or pulling the wrong club. You are not missing 6 or 9 greens on average due to perfect swings with one of the faults above. You are missing (I'd bet the majority of them) with bad swings (either contact or face/path issues).

> b) your rounds are still rounds. If you want to improve, you should still strive to see some progress in shooting lower scores when you play. Saying that you are happy ending up in bad spots because it's a lesson is just hilarious. You can learn and practice all of the good things like routine and confidence with any club. You can also go to the practice green, drop 20 balls, and pretend you just hit your approach shots there.

>

> Again, I'm saying nothing about whether a different iron head would put you in a different spot. I'm just saying that your perspective and rationale make absolutely no sense. You could go buy some left-handed clubs, flip them around, give it a whack, and be happy dribbling it around the course all day in the name of practice too (I bet you'll be in all kinds of bunkers, trees, and native areas with this strategy). Would anyone actually suggest that?

>

> Every golfer, regardless of ability, screws up when they play. And when we are trying something new there is no need to beat ourselves up excessively, But I think you still need to take the score semi-seriously when you play. It is the most important measure in evaluating our improvement.

 

This makes zero sense and frankly I'm not even sure what your suggesting or saying? Are you suggesting that he doesn't care about his score? Are you suggesting he doesn't care about development? Are suggesting that he's doing something that will hinder his score or development down the road?

 

His "perspective and rational" makes perfect sense to me because it's the exact perspective and rational I adopted 2.5 years ago and my complete game and scoring is unrecognizable to what it use to be. And in those 2.5 years I easily didn't score about 50 rounds. Just worked on gaining knowledge and learning to execute that knowledge. Don't get me wrong, I went the G30 route for 2 years before that and they did NOTHING for me. Also tried the 588 Altitude route before the G30's and NOTHING changed. But I guess we're all different...or is that the point that eludes you and a few others...the fact that we're not all like you. I know that's a tough concept to grasp for some for those with simple minds that feel the need to put everything into tidy little boxes. You'll pardon me if I don't fit into your delusional and preconceived notions of how YOU think things should be.

 

@revanat Yes you heard that right. At least 50 or more rounds where I didn't score my round. Just worked on becoming a better ball striker and did that by acquiring knowledge and learning to execute that knowledge. Also learning quite a bit about myself and my natural instincts that worked tremendously well in hockey and soccer yet seemed to be a detriment to my golf swing. You may not realize this yet but you're much longer than you think. Better mechanics will get you much better height, distance and accuracy. Don't ever settle until you figure it out. Might take a long time but when you do, it will all be worth it. Knowledge is everything. Will and determination is the machete that cuts through the bushes and gets you there. Don't settle ?

[Tree Levino]

 

> @MelloYello said:

> > @revanant said:

> >

> > I can put a good strike on the ball and hit my target, and it’s important for me to develop a consistent pre-shot routine and confidence so that my best swing comes out. When everything comes together, it’s really a big confidence boost.

> >

> > If I miss or mess up, it’s also ok. I’m in the learning phase. My game is incomplete and I need to take my lumps. If my ball comes up short and I wind up in the sand or water, it’s a good lesson for me. Normally, the culprit is either having chosen too dangerous or aggressive of a target for me, or having taken the wrong club. With a pin near a bunker or an edge, my smarter play should probably be to aim for the middle of the green and work on my lag putting.

> >

> > But, since my rounds are basically practice, and I can use all sorts of on course practice, I’m not sure I’m doing myself any favors if I get a thin mishit and dodge a bunker. Since I’m still pretty fresh, I can probably use both the bunker practice and the lesson about having thinned my iron and whatever caused it—whether it was uneven lie, poor pre-shot routine, bad weight shift, etc.

>

> Jeez dude...maybe I'm wrong but I think you need to relax and just play golf. Hit a shot. Forget about whatever you did. Play the next shot. Record the score. Practice what you need to in between rounds. IMHO, it sounds like you need to simplify. I'm getting a headache just reading you describe your reactions, over-analyzing every mistake you make, shot after shot.

>

> Let me tell you where your pathway leads...you keep telling yourself that at some point you'll get serious about score and that for now it's all just "practice." Only thing is, that excuse is dangerous and deadly. It's like, _'no worries, I have my whole life to get in the gym and drop this 20 lbs. No need to start today. I'll start next week!'_

>

> Problem is, that same rationale is going to get applied next week and the week after until a year goes by and instead of dropping 20 you gained another 20 doing the same bad stuff. Now you have to drop 40-lbs and you're realizing you have no self-control. And then you're going to secretly hate yourself for not improving as you could've and for doing something incredibly stupid. And then you're going to post about how you're having some crisis and want to quit the game, LOL.

>

> Seriously, it happens all the time around here. People don't face their demons. They spend countless hours obsessing about something that probably never mattered very much like how pure they were hitting their 6-iron and all of a sudden they end up shooting their worst scores ever because they forget to play with the mindset that every shot matters. A 98 beats a 99 just the same as a 62 beats a 63.

>

> If you're not motivated by your scorecard then it's not possible to be motivated about practice. You'll bounce from one thing to the next: head down, take it back like _this_, shift your weight, bring the handle through like _that_, etc.

>

> Nobody really cares what clubs you use. I'd just like to see you be less obsessed with the reasons why you hit a poor shot. Stop saying your rounds are just practice. That's a loser's mindset, dude. That's totally something a weak person says to try and protect his ego. Instead of bouncing back, you tell yourself "it doesn't matter" that you started with 3 double bogeys. All rounds are practice in the sense you're getting reps. Sure. But every round counts and your actual score has to matter more to you than your mechanics if you ever want to actually improve.

>

> There are always going to be reasons why something went poorly whether it's an entire round or just a single shot. All you'll come up with a list of 1,000 different "lessons," none of which really mean anything. _"Oh, that last one came out thin. I'd better keep my head down next time!"_

>

>

>

 

Completely agree. It all depends on what this game is to you. Every round is me trying to improve, but not in the same way you're talking about @revanant. I'm determined and extremely intense about making sure every aspect of my game is constantly improving. As Mello said, letting yourself be okay with triples consistently and blaming your putting on your bad scores leads to a losing mindset. I understand everyone's abilities are different, but I have never been okay with bad shots. Maybe I take the game too seriously, but instead of worrying about which set of blades I'm trying out next, I beat ball after ball, practice chipping, pitching, and putting for hours a day. I also started to get lessons even after I was playing pretty good golf. I went from shooting over 100 to under 80 consistently in less than 12 months. That's not a brag, it's me saying that I worked my a** off to get decent at this game quickly and did not accept anything less. This game is mental. If you think you're going to hit the shot you're more likely to hit it. Go practice in a bunker on the range, don't say you're okay with hitting a sh*t iron shot and your no-help clubs put you in the bunker - oh good I get to practice. That is not how to get better. I spent hours in a bunker until I was super comfortable. Now I aim for them as my miss into par 5s and have around 40% save percentage out of them. You're a young guy and I'm sure are capable of having some speed. Are you getting lessons? I think you must be casting like crazy and adding loft to get the spin numbers you're getting with the short distances. If you watch youtube and go "oh hey Rick Shiels wants 7k spin on a 7 iron - good that's what I'm getting too!". Well he's hitting his 7 iron 180 not 130. The spin rate you're getting is through swing fault and is actually a negative. A caster is actually better off with GI low spin clubs - that's why they exist. Get to a good coach and work it out. I personally don't think the MP4 are helping you one bit as you clearly don't have good control over the golf ball and that's what this type of iron is for. IMO the descent angle, spin, peak height thing is all going to drastically change once you start compressing the golf ball and improve technique anyways. Worrying about shafts etc is pointless. Help in the clubhead is only going to be a positive.

 

I completely think that @chisag assessment of blades vs his P760 is accurate. Even the TXG guys (both Ian and Matt) say they won't play blades because they aren't good enough. Matt hits over 180mph ball speed with driver - he's certainly got the speed. I'd play blades up to 6 iron no issue. Even a 5. 3 and 4 I think a more helpful head is good. Hit an absolute dart with my TMB as my second into a par 5 yesterday. 100% the ball goes straighter when moving strike around the face with that iron compared to a bladed 4. 220 to 10 feet and it was hit well but not perfect. Another few instances where I noticed a marginal amount of help in the CB that would've been worse with the MP5. Again, I'd be within a shot or two of the same score. I get all of the look, feel, spin, workability - literally everything a blade gives just without the unnecessary ego boost of "I play blades" that it seems some of you need.