My Experience Gaming Blades as a Mid-High Handicapper

[dpb5031]

I haven't checkd-in here in a while. Round-and-round she goes...lol! I'm on record here stating that practicing with a true compact mb blade can be beneficial for some players. It definitely helps me to keep my ballstriking sharp.

 

Reading those in the MB camp, it seems like a lot comes down to aesthetics. I'd agree that different "looks" in an iron can influence how you deliver the club to the ball. Several years ago I experimented with Ping G20s... super forgiving clubs that lots of players enjoy. Bottom line for me was that I hit them worse than the tiny S59s I had been playing prior. The clunky look seemed to change the way I attacked the ball. The launch angle was higher than I prefer and further influenced my swing in a negative way. They were less effective out of the rough for me due to increased surface drag. My scoring did not improve, and my ball striking actually deteriorated. Visual, psychological, whatever...based on that experience I do believe the guys who claim to hit it better with a club that looks "right" to their eye.

 

Another point I'd like to make is that compact player CBs (like Titleist CBs, Mizzy 919Ts, etc.) don't really offer much more help than many of the modern MB blades. I'd be willing to bet that certain blades like MP5s are just as forgiving or more than some of the smaller profile player's CBs out there. In the very least I'd bet the difference is so negligible it wouldn't really result in a significant performance difference.

[Tree Levino]

> @dpb5031 said:

> I haven't checkd-in here in a while. Round-and-round she goes...lol! I'm on record here stating that practicing with a true compact mb blade can be beneficial for some players. It definitely helps me to keep my ballstriking sharp.

>

> Reading those in the MB camp, it seems like a lot comes down to aesthetics. I'd agree that different "looks" in an iron can influence how you deliver the club to the ball. Several years ago I experimented with Ping G20s... super forgiving clubs that lots of players enjoy. Bottom line for me was that I hit them worse than the tiny S59s I had been playing prior. The clunky look seemed to change the way I attacked the ball. The launch angle was higher than I prefer and further influenced my swing in a negative way. They were less effective out of the rough for me due to increased surface drag. My scoring did not improve, and my ball striking actually deteriorated. Visual, psychological, whatever...based on that experience I do believe the guys who claim to hit it better with a club that looks "right" to their eye.

>

> Another point I'd like to make is that compact player CBs (like Titleist CBs, Mizzy 919Ts, etc.) don't really offer much more help than many of the modern MB blades. I'd be willing to bet that certain blades like MP5s are just as forgiving or more than some of the smaller profile player's CBs out there. In the very least I'd bet the difference is so negligible it wouldn't really result in a significant performance difference.

 

I think that a small CB can provide a lot of forgiveness benefit. I, like you, tend to hit oversized clubs like Ping G series worse than smaller heads. MPF is not the be all end all, but if we look at my CB vs your i200 (which I also had) the MPF is only 10 points lower with CB. Very similar is MOI, CG, and CDim. Having owned both I’d say the i200 are maybe a touch more forgiving towards the toe, but taking blade length into consideration I would say the CB is actually more forgiving for its size by a wide margin. Forgiveness is relative to how far your miss hits stray off centre. Having played MP5 and CB back to back, is argue the CB is drastically more forgiving on toe strikes. As far as launching the ball, the MP5 with its lower CG is probably more forgiving that way.

[dpb5031]

> @balls_deep said:

> > @dpb5031 said:

> > I haven't checkd-in here in a while. Round-and-round she goes...lol! I'm on record here stating that practicing with a true compact mb blade can be beneficial for some players. It definitely helps me to keep my ballstriking sharp.

> >

> > Reading those in the MB camp, it seems like a lot comes down to aesthetics. I'd agree that different "looks" in an iron can influence how you deliver the club to the ball. Several years ago I experimented with Ping G20s... super forgiving clubs that lots of players enjoy. Bottom line for me was that I hit them worse than the tiny S59s I had been playing prior. The clunky look seemed to change the way I attacked the ball. The launch angle was higher than I prefer and further influenced my swing in a negative way. They were less effective out of the rough for me due to increased surface drag. My scoring did not improve, and my ball striking actually deteriorated. Visual, psychological, whatever...based on that experience I do believe the guys who claim to hit it better with a club that looks "right" to their eye.

> >

> > Another point I'd like to make is that compact player CBs (like Titleist CBs, Mizzy 919Ts, etc.) don't really offer much more help than many of the modern MB blades. I'd be willing to bet that certain blades like MP5s are just as forgiving or more than some of the smaller profile player's CBs out there. In the very least I'd bet the difference is so negligible it wouldn't really result in a significant performance difference.

>

> I think that a small CB can provide a lot of forgiveness benefit. I, like you, tend to hit oversized clubs like Ping G series worse than smaller heads. MPF is not the be all end all, but if we look at my CB vs your i200 (which I also had) the MPF is only 10 points lower with CB. Very similar is MOI, CG, and CDim. Having owned both I’d say the i200 are maybe a touch more forgiving towards the toe, but taking blade length into consideration I would say the CB is actually more forgiving for its size by a wide margin. Forgiveness is relative to how far your miss hits stray off centre. Having played MP5 and CB back to back, is argue the CB is drastically more forgiving on toe strikes. As far as launching the ball, the MP5 with its lower CG is probably more forgiving that way.

 

I think that's a fair assessment. I gave random examples without looking up any MOI or Maltby numbers. Still, I'd be willing to bet there are compact CBs that for some players are more difficult to use than some MB blades. I'm sure it depends on your most prevalent miss, etc. I like my i200s pretty forgiving on slight toe strikes (my most common miss) yet can still control spin and trajectory better than most GI type clubs. Aesthetically, I like the shape but would probably prefer a slightly shorter blade length. I suppose there will always be trade-offs...

[Tree Levino]

> @dpb5031 said:

> > @balls_deep said:

> > > @dpb5031 said:

> > > I haven't checkd-in here in a while. Round-and-round she goes...lol! I'm on record here stating that practicing with a true compact mb blade can be beneficial for some players. It definitely helps me to keep my ballstriking sharp.

> > >

> > > Reading those in the MB camp, it seems like a lot comes down to aesthetics. I'd agree that different "looks" in an iron can influence how you deliver the club to the ball. Several years ago I experimented with Ping G20s... super forgiving clubs that lots of players enjoy. Bottom line for me was that I hit them worse than the tiny S59s I had been playing prior. The clunky look seemed to change the way I attacked the ball. The launch angle was higher than I prefer and further influenced my swing in a negative way. They were less effective out of the rough for me due to increased surface drag. My scoring did not improve, and my ball striking actually deteriorated. Visual, psychological, whatever...based on that experience I do believe the guys who claim to hit it better with a club that looks "right" to their eye.

> > >

> > > Another point I'd like to make is that compact player CBs (like Titleist CBs, Mizzy 919Ts, etc.) don't really offer much more help than many of the modern MB blades. I'd be willing to bet that certain blades like MP5s are just as forgiving or more than some of the smaller profile player's CBs out there. In the very least I'd bet the difference is so negligible it wouldn't really result in a significant performance difference.

> >

> > I think that a small CB can provide a lot of forgiveness benefit. I, like you, tend to hit oversized clubs like Ping G series worse than smaller heads. MPF is not the be all end all, but if we look at my CB vs your i200 (which I also had) the MPF is only 10 points lower with CB. Very similar is MOI, CG, and CDim. Having owned both I’d say the i200 are maybe a touch more forgiving towards the toe, but taking blade length into consideration I would say the CB is actually more forgiving for its size by a wide margin. Forgiveness is relative to how far your miss hits stray off centre. Having played MP5 and CB back to back, is argue the CB is drastically more forgiving on toe strikes. As far as launching the ball, the MP5 with its lower CG is probably more forgiving that way.

>

> I think that's a fair assessment. I gave random examples without looking up any MOI or Maltby numbers. Still, I'd be willing to bet there are compact CBs that for some players are more difficult to use than some MB blades. I'm sure it depends on your most prevalent miss, etc. I like my i200s pretty forgiving on slight toe strikes (my most common miss) yet can still control spin and trajectory better than most GI type clubs. Aesthetically, I like the shape but would probably prefer a slightly shorter blade length. I suppose there will always be trade-offs...

 

I think the I series is pretty much the benchmark example for this thread. For me, I too wish the long irons in that set were more compact. The short irons are to die for shape wise IMO. They are GI forgiving for a good player but you can pull off any shot you can with an MB. Further to that, they still require a good swing to get good results, but as you said if your strike is slightly out the toe, you are more likely to end up on your intended line and distance than with an MB. Otherwise you’d be playing an MB right?

[dpb5031]

> @balls_deep said:

> > @dpb5031 said:

> > > @balls_deep said:

> > > > @dpb5031 said:

> > > > I haven't checkd-in here in a while. Round-and-round she goes...lol! I'm on record here stating that practicing with a true compact mb blade can be beneficial for some players. It definitely helps me to keep my ballstriking sharp.

> > > >

> > > > Reading those in the MB camp, it seems like a lot comes down to aesthetics. I'd agree that different "looks" in an iron can influence how you deliver the club to the ball. Several years ago I experimented with Ping G20s... super forgiving clubs that lots of players enjoy. Bottom line for me was that I hit them worse than the tiny S59s I had been playing prior. The clunky look seemed to change the way I attacked the ball. The launch angle was higher than I prefer and further influenced my swing in a negative way. They were less effective out of the rough for me due to increased surface drag. My scoring did not improve, and my ball striking actually deteriorated. Visual, psychological, whatever...based on that experience I do believe the guys who claim to hit it better with a club that looks "right" to their eye.

> > > >

> > > > Another point I'd like to make is that compact player CBs (like Titleist CBs, Mizzy 919Ts, etc.) don't really offer much more help than many of the modern MB blades. I'd be willing to bet that certain blades like MP5s are just as forgiving or more than some of the smaller profile player's CBs out there. In the very least I'd bet the difference is so negligible it wouldn't really result in a significant performance difference.

> > >

> > > I think that a small CB can provide a lot of forgiveness benefit. I, like you, tend to hit oversized clubs like Ping G series worse than smaller heads. MPF is not the be all end all, but if we look at my CB vs your i200 (which I also had) the MPF is only 10 points lower with CB. Very similar is MOI, CG, and CDim. Having owned both I’d say the i200 are maybe a touch more forgiving towards the toe, but taking blade length into consideration I would say the CB is actually more forgiving for its size by a wide margin. Forgiveness is relative to how far your miss hits stray off centre. Having played MP5 and CB back to back, is argue the CB is drastically more forgiving on toe strikes. As far as launching the ball, the MP5 with its lower CG is probably more forgiving that way.

> >

> > I think that's a fair assessment. I gave random examples without looking up any MOI or Maltby numbers. Still, I'd be willing to bet there are compact CBs that for some players are more difficult to use than some MB blades. I'm sure it depends on your most prevalent miss, etc. I like my i200s pretty forgiving on slight toe strikes (my most common miss) yet can still control spin and trajectory better than most GI type clubs. Aesthetically, I like the shape but would probably prefer a slightly shorter blade length. I suppose there will always be trade-offs...

>

> I think the I series is pretty much the benchmark example for this thread. For me, I too wish the long irons in that set were more compact. The short irons are to die for shape wise IMO. They are GI forgiving for a good player but you can pull off any shot you can with an MB. Further to that, they still require a good swing to get good results, but as you said if your strike is slightly out the toe, you are more likely to end up on your intended line and distance than with an MB. Otherwise you’d be playing an MB right?

 

Absolutely! An i200/210 with a smidge less blade length and an ever so slightly narrower sole would be 'bout perfect. The 200s produce a better (flatter) flight for me than the iBlades, otherwise I'd probably gravitate toward that direction.

 

Yes, I could easily play blades, and occasionally practice with my MP33 7 iron and MP67 6 iron which helps me to refine and zero-in my ballstriking Still, i appreciate that the 200s offer a little help when I need it. On my best ballstriking days it probably doesnt matter, but on "off" days the forgiveness is welcomed. I've had 3 bogey-free rounds this season including a 67 last week. Even in that round where I didnt miss too many shots, I can vividly recall 2 where the 200s likely helped me avoid missing the green altogether. Extrapolate that into a multi-round tournament and the benefits become quite tangible

[chisag]

> @balls_deep said:

> This thread, as I stated earlier, is completely broken. We've got guys talking about CB wedges, guys talking about SGI jacked loft 8 irons that go 180, guys talking about players cbs, guys claiming MBs are the most consistent clubs out there. It's honestly pointless. Nobody is making a sound argument. Play what you want and be done with it. I love blades. I love small CBs. I don't care what any of you have in the bag.

 

 

... Of course it's broken, just like every other MB thread on wrx. Love blades and want to play them? Good for you and enjoy. The trouble in paradise is those that want to justify their MB choice by doing 2 things many of us find frustrating. 1) trying to convince anyone not playing MB's that they are no more or less forgiving than any other iron sometimes even going further and claiming MB's produce better mishits and 2) telling others, especially higher/mid index players that they should play MB's because it will improve their ball striking, make them a better player and they are hurting their progress playing anything else.

 

... I get why many here love MB's and/or want to play them. I just picked up a set of Srixon Z Forged and look forward to playing them every now and then for fun. But I will never understand why the MB zealots keep trying to convert others to give up their forgiving irons and switch to MB's. I don't believe I have ever read a Forged Players CB thread where anyone tried to convince those playing GI's (or heaven forbid SGI's!) that they should give up their forgiving irons and switch to Players CB's.

 

 

[dciccoritti]

> @balls_deep said:

> I've hit what felt a near perfect strike but the drop off led me to a slightly shorter carry into water. Reloaded and hit my CB 7 with an equivalent strike and it's on the green near the pin.

 

I rest my case :-)

 

 

[mwink822]

I've always been a good striker of the ball with my irons and up until about two years ago, played blades. At my best I was down to an 8.3 index when playing four times a week after work and hitting balls or rolling putts two or three days a week (though I was still a terrible pressure putter). Index went up to a 15.1. Went to JPX 900 Tours, index came back down a little bit to 13.2 and held. This year, went to 718 AP2, and index came down further to 11.6 and is still trending down. Moral of the story, if you're a good striker of the ball and play and practice a lot, blades a great; if you have to do adulting, like I presume most of us do, don't turn your nose up at some forgiveness that will give you that extra 5 or 8 yards when you don't absolutely middle the shot. That extra 5 or 8 yards could be the difference between putting and having to hit one of those tricky, delicate short-sided greenside chips that we amateurs overcook way too often. With all that said, I do really miss the feel of an absolutely pured shot with my old 716 MB's.

[revanant]

> @dciccoritti said:

> > @BiggErn said:

> > > @balls_deep said:

> > > > @dciccoritti said:

> > > > > @balls_deep said:

> > > > > I'm talking about a very compact players CB vs MB. No increased chance of fliers but more consistent ball speed across the face.

> > > >

> > > > You got that backwards.

> > >

> > > What on earth. Please tell me you're trying to say that ball speed is more consistent on off centre hits with an MB vs a CB. This thread is so broken. Play blades if you want because you like them, just don't spew fallacies.

> >

> > Fallacies it what keeps them going.

>

> LOL :-)

>

>

 

Honestly, this is a crazy video. The M2 is marketed as an SGI/GI iron, and those mishits are awful. That being said, it lines up with what I've typically experienced--basically, not all irons are created equal, and a lot of irons marketed as forgiving still won't protect me from mishits.

 

I flipped my AP1s, because they basically performed like the M2 in the video. Aesthetics aside, the basic premise of playing an iron like the AP1 or M2 is that it's supposed to give much better ballspeed and shot performance on mishits. But I haven't found it to be true in practice, and apparently, neither did Rick Shiels. It could just be that the M2 isn't a great iron, and that a lot of SGI/GI irons out there just don't deliver the goods. Not to pick on the M2, but why would I want an iron that is low spinning, resistant to shot shaping, but still loses a ton of ballspeed on mishits? That's the worst of all worlds. It seems like a bad recipe for any golfer, and it's why I think I got a lot better when I moved to the opposite end of the spectrum. I just haven't been able to replicate the claims of finding an iron that turns my bad or okay shots into good shots. With the M2 in the video, even the small misses are dropping 10+ yards. Which is not to discount the experience of those who have found irons that forgive their bad shots--but frankly, if there was an iron out there that turned all of our shots into pin-seeking missiles despite our user errors, we'd all be playing it. The M2 is billed as exactly that sort of iron--but it definitely isn't anything of the sort. At the end of the day, we've all got a lot of variety in our bags and custom-fitting is a big part of equipment purchasing--because golf isn't as simple as equipping everyone with Ping Eye 2s and turning us all into scratch golfers.

 

I still have some hope for my 716 CBs--I'm going to hope that a flatter lie adjustment improves my contact to my MP-4 levels. If the tweak has them outperforming my MP-4s consistently, I'll happily bag them for my primary irons. But I would expect the improvement to be a bit incremental and small--a little bit more ballspeed on good and bad strikes, and a little bit of a steeper descent angle. If it's a smidge more consistent and longer without losing spin, it's a good improvement.

 

But it's the sort of improvement that's maybe only worth 1 to 3 strokes, I'd think. Mainly because my current iron play looks a lot like what I see on Sundays on TV--hitting the green with a 15 to 20 foot putt for birdie, or maybe needing a good up and down. The major difference is that I'll regularly turn that birdie putt into a 3 putt bogie, and I probably won't chip it close enough to save par. Of course, the pros get to the green with fewer strokes from much farther away. But when it comes to being on or around the green, we're playing a similar game. I'm just playing it a lot worse. : D

 

Ultimately, kind of like a car and crash protection, I think the best protection on a mishit is to not have a mishit in the first place. Of course, that's easier said than done : ). But there's definitely something to be said for putting something in the bag that gives you confidence and helps you put your best swing on the ball prior to contact-be it a nice CB or a nice MB.

[farmer]

dpb, you're a 1 hdcp. You can play whatever. I get why you didn't like the g20's, but you have a game that doesn't compare to a 15+ hdcp player. You play, with vastly greater skills, GI irons. Read the earlier post from Revanant. He drove it poorly, hit poor iron shots, chipped and putted horribly, plus, his course management was awful. No iron of any design is going to overcome this torrent of bad play.

[dciccoritti]

> @farmer said:

> dpb, you're a 1 hdcp. You can play whatever. I get why you didn't like the g20's, but you have a game that doesn't compare to a 15+ hdcp player. You play, with vastly greater skills, GI irons. Read the earlier post from Revanant. He drove it poorly, hit poor iron shots, chipped and putted horribly, plus, his course management was awful. No iron of any design is going to overcome this torrent of bad play.

 

So your saying a 1 hdcp can play whatever and a 15+ hdcp can play whatever. That's exactly what we've been trying to say for ages ?

 

[dpb5031]

> @farmer said:

> dpb, you're a 1 hdcp. You can play whatever. I get why you didn't like the g20's, but you have a game that doesn't compare to a 15+ hdcp player. You play, with vastly greater skills, GI irons. Read the earlier post from Revanant. He drove it poorly, hit poor iron shots, chipped and putted horribly, plus, his course management was awful. No iron of any design is going to overcome this torrent of bad play.

 

I don't disagree with you about that @farmer, and if he stinks that bad (no offense @revanant lol) the type of iron probably makes little difference, so we're back to "play whatever you like, but don't pee on my leg and tell me it's raining!"

 

I know the thread is about mid-high handicaps. Since we're like 600 pages into it I just figured a slightly different perspective may be of some value. My point is that a clubs aesthetics can subconsciously influence the way you swing at it.

[farmer]

When I dip into these threads, I have always advocated people playing what they like. I disagree with the notion that a 15+ gets some advantage with a blade.

[revanant]

@dpb5031 No worries--I'm getting better. : )

 

And, while @farmer might disagree, my scores are dropping with blades in the bag, in a way they didn't when I had AP1s in the bag. I think a large part of it goes to what you describe--practicing with a blade is helpful. If I groove the swing that gives me good contact with the blade, I'm inherently grooving good habits.

 

Separately, based on the Rick Shiels vid, it doesn't look like an iron such as the M2 would be good for my game, or his game, or really anyone's game. The iron has a high MPF, but if you look at those results, it doesn't show up in any tangible way. I actually had an M2 6 iron that I picked up for testing purposes--my MP-4 blew it out of the water in my hands with respect to consistency of performance and quality of shot.

[duffer987]

> @revanant said:

> But it's the sort of improvement that's maybe only worth 1 to 3 strokes, I'd think. Mainly because my current iron play looks a lot like what I see on Sundays on TV--hitting the green with a 15 to 20 foot putt for birdie, or maybe needing a good up and down. The major difference is that I'll regularly turn that birdie putt into a 3 putt bogie, and I probably won't chip it close enough to save par. Of course, the pros get to the green with fewer strokes from much farther away. But when it comes to being on or around the green, we're playing a similar game. I'm just playing it a lot worse. : D

>

 

:D

The recreational golfer who is an ace ballstriker at near tour level, but is held back by EVERYTHING else, is my favorite kind of delusional golfer.

 

 

[zoned_post_meridiem]

> @aenemated said:

> What I find most interesting about this discussion is how much other people care what irons other people play.

 

I can't recall anyone on the course ever asking/caring about/even looking closely at what irons I play. Driver, sometimes -- that Evenflow Blue looks stunning -- but never irons.

[zoned_post_meridiem]

> @nature_boy_wrx said:

> Blades are to Linux as CBs are to Windows 10.

 

Ouch. I use Linux, and game GIs. I feel like my identity just got unmoored. :)

[BMC]

> @zoned_post_meridiem said:

> > @aenemated said:

> > What I find most interesting about this discussion is how much other people care what irons other people play.

>

> I can't recall anyone on the course ever asking/caring about/even looking closely at what irons I play. Driver, sometimes -- that Evenflow Blue looks stunning -- but never irons.

 

If I get randomly paired with a near scratch appearing player, I'll peek in their bag. By a big margin, I usually see Titleist CB

irons or Mizuno blades.

[dpb5031]

> @BMC said:

> > @zoned_post_meridiem said:

> > > @aenemated said:

> > > What I find most interesting about this discussion is how much other people care what irons other people play.

> >

> > I can't recall anyone on the course ever asking/caring about/even looking closely at what irons I play. Driver, sometimes -- that Evenflow Blue looks stunning -- but never irons.

>

> If I get randomly paired with a near scratch appearing player, I'll peek in their bag. By a big margin, I usually see Titleist CB

> irons or Mizuno blades.

 

I play with a lot of good players, often times in state & county tournaments. It's very rare that I see a guy with a full set of true MB blades with the exception of the occasional collegiate player. I see plenty of AP2s, Apex Tours, Mizuno JPX Tours & Forged, and lots of Pings. In my experience, most really good players tend to have a hodgepodge of brands in their bags based on what they've learned works for them and what they can trust.

[keith723]

For a recreational golfer, it’s all about having fun at the end of the day. I have fun when I bomb a bunch of drives. I can shoot in the high 70s but usually I’m in the low 80s but I have just as much fun shooting in the 80s as long as I was hitting it well. If I flub a few chips here and there and miss some putts, I’d take that any day over sinking putts and shooting the same score but hitting the ball like crap on the long game.

 

As for blades, if they make you enjoy the game more - do it! I can hit blades, but I enjoy the forgiveness of the Apex Pro series irons. They still have a very thin top line but if I miss it, I don’t even really notice it in terms of distance or accuracy. They just want to fly high and straight but they’re still workable. Since I know all the guys at my local retail shops, they’ll let me take a display set of MBs out here and there and they are fun to game and look sexy in the bag, but ultimately they can cost me a few shots here and there, especially if my short game is not on point. I love blades but I’m trying to be realistic, even at my current 7.2 handicap, I still miss enough that blades hurt more than help. But again, we’re all recreational players here - play what you want and you determine whether you’re playing for a lower score or just to hit some good shots and hang with your friends on the course. It’s all good either way.

[braincramp52]

Some things never change and this thread is living proof of it once again. Someone needs to start another blade vs CB vs Shovel thread tomorrow. This one is stale.

[farmer]

> @duffer987 said:

> > @revanant said:

> > But it's the sort of improvement that's maybe only worth 1 to 3 strokes, I'd think. Mainly because my current iron play looks a lot like what I see on Sundays on TV--hitting the green with a 15 to 20 foot putt for birdie, or maybe needing a good up and down. The major difference is that I'll regularly turn that birdie putt into a 3 putt bogie, and I probably won't chip it close enough to save par. Of course, the pros get to the green with fewer strokes from much farther away. But when it comes to being on or around the green, we're playing a similar game. I'm just playing it a lot worse. : D

> >

>

> :D

> The recreational golfer who is an ace ballstriker at near tour level, but is held back by EVERYTHING else, is my favorite kind of delusional golfer.

>

>

 

The yeti of golf forums.

[revanant]

> @duffer987 said:

> > @revanant said:

> > But it's the sort of improvement that's maybe only worth 1 to 3 strokes, I'd think. Mainly because my current iron play looks a lot like what I see on Sundays on TV--hitting the green with a 15 to 20 foot putt for birdie, or maybe needing a good up and down. The major difference is that I'll regularly turn that birdie putt into a 3 putt bogie, and I probably won't chip it close enough to save par. Of course, the pros get to the green with fewer strokes from much farther away. But when it comes to being on or around the green, we're playing a similar game. I'm just playing it a lot worse. : D

> >

>

> :D

> The recreational golfer who is an ace ballstriker at near tour level, but is held back by EVERYTHING else, is my favorite kind of delusional golfer.

>

>

My point was more that tour-level pros don't put every ball on the pin, not that I'm amazing. : )

 

The best ball strikers on tour are averaging 30 feet/10 yards on approach.

Average Proximity from Hole: https://www.pgatour.com/stats/stat.331.html

 

The stats are better from closer distances, but not a ton. From 50-125 yards out, pros range from between about 15 feet to 25 feet from the hole.

Approach (50 yards to 125 yards): https://www.pgatour.com/stats/stat.340.html

 

To me, these are long putts. However, nobody 3-putts. The % of 3 putts per hole range from a low of 1.44% (Wyndham Clark) to, at worst, less than 5% (Cameron Champ).

3 Putt Avoidance: https://www.pgatour.com/stats/stat.426.html

 

Between 15 ft and 25 feet, there are a bunch of players who just never 3-putt. The worst are around 5% of the time.

3 Putt Avoidance (15-20 ft): https://www.pgatour.com/stats/stat.145.html

3 Putt Avoidance: (20-25 ft): https://www.pgatour.com/stats/stat.146.html

 

I think a lot of us can put the ball within 20-30 feet of the pin with some frequency. But the big difference is that, when I get there, I might not get down in 2.

 

In fact, I might not get down in 2 from 10 feet. And the solution can't be to put the ball closer than 15 feet to the hole all the time--because not even pros can meet that standard on average. This is why I'm not worrying about my iron choice any more. My irons are getting me into scoring position. But my putting is blowing up my scorecard.

[BiggErn]

> @revanant said:

> > @duffer987 said:

> > > @revanant said:

> > > But it's the sort of improvement that's maybe only worth 1 to 3 strokes, I'd think. Mainly because my current iron play looks a lot like what I see on Sundays on TV--hitting the green with a 15 to 20 foot putt for birdie, or maybe needing a good up and down. The major difference is that I'll regularly turn that birdie putt into a 3 putt bogie, and I probably won't chip it close enough to save par. Of course, the pros get to the green with fewer strokes from much farther away. But when it comes to being on or around the green, we're playing a similar game. I'm just playing it a lot worse. : D

> > >

> >

> > :D

> > The recreational golfer who is an ace ballstriker at near tour level, but is held back by EVERYTHING else, is my favorite kind of delusional golfer.

> >

> >

> My point was more that tour-level pros don't put every ball on the pin, not that I'm amazing. : )

>

> The best ball strikers on tour are averaging 30 feet/10 yards on approach.

> Average Proximity from Hole: https://www.pgatour.com/stats/stat.331.html

>

> The stats are better from closer distances, but not a ton. From 50-125 yards out, pros range from between about 15 feet to 25 feet from the hole.

> Approach (50 yards to 125 yards): https://www.pgatour.com/stats/stat.340.html

>

> To me, these are long putts. However, nobody 3-putts. The % of 3 putts per hole range from a low of 1.44% (Wyndham Clark) to, at worst, less than 5% (Cameron Champ).

> 3 Putt Avoidance: https://www.pgatour.com/stats/stat.426.html

>

> Between 15 ft and 25 feet, there are a bunch of players who just never 3-putt. The worst are around 5% of the time.

> 3 Putt Avoidance (15-20 ft): https://www.pgatour.com/stats/stat.145.html

> 3 Putt Avoidance: (20-25 ft): https://www.pgatour.com/stats/stat.146.html

>

> I think a lot of us can put the ball within 20-30 feet of the pin with some frequency. But the big difference is that, when I get there, I might not get down in 2.

>

> In fact, I might not get down in 2 from 10 feet. And the solution can't be to put the ball closer than 15 feet to the hole all the time--because not even pros can meet that standard on average. This is why I'm not worrying about my iron choice any more. My irons are getting me into scoring position. But my putting is blowing up my scorecard.

 

Yes except they hit the ball dead solid every time and shoot under par. Nobody is a world class ball striker and atrocious enough in every other aspect to be a double digit HC.

[Titleist_PT23]

> @revanant said:

> > @duffer987 said:

> > > @revanant said:

> > > But it's the sort of improvement that's maybe only worth 1 to 3 strokes, I'd think. Mainly because my current iron play looks a lot like what I see on Sundays on TV--hitting the green with a 15 to 20 foot putt for birdie, or maybe needing a good up and down. The major difference is that I'll regularly turn that birdie putt into a 3 putt bogie, and I probably won't chip it close enough to save par. Of course, the pros get to the green with fewer strokes from much farther away. But when it comes to being on or around the green, we're playing a similar game. I'm just playing it a lot worse. : D

> > >

> >

> > :D

> > The recreational golfer who is an ace ballstriker at near tour level, but is held back by EVERYTHING else, is my favorite kind of delusional golfer.

> >

> >

> My point was more that tour-level pros don't put every ball on the pin, not that I'm amazing. : )

>

> The best ball strikers on tour are averaging 30 feet/10 yards on approach.

> Average Proximity from Hole: https://www.pgatour.com/stats/stat.331.html

>

> The stats are better from closer distances, but not a ton. From 50-125 yards out, pros range from between about 15 feet to 25 feet from the hole.

> Approach (50 yards to 125 yards): https://www.pgatour.com/stats/stat.340.html

>

> To me, these are long putts. However, nobody 3-putts. The % of 3 putts per hole range from a low of 1.44% (Wyndham Clark) to, at worst, less than 5% (Cameron Champ).

> 3 Putt Avoidance: https://www.pgatour.com/stats/stat.426.html

>

> Between 15 ft and 25 feet, there are a bunch of players who just never 3-putt. The worst are around 5% of the time.

> 3 Putt Avoidance (15-20 ft): https://www.pgatour.com/stats/stat.145.html

> 3 Putt Avoidance: (20-25 ft): https://www.pgatour.com/stats/stat.146.html

>

> I think a lot of us can put the ball within 20-30 feet of the pin with some frequency. But the big difference is that, when I get there, I might not get down in 2.

>

> In fact, I might not get down in 2 from 10 feet. And the solution can't be to put the ball closer than 15 feet to the hole all the time--because not even pros can meet that standard on average. This is why I'm not worrying about my iron choice any more. My irons are getting me into scoring position. But my putting is blowing up my scorecard.

I think your logic is partly flawed. The figures you are quoting for the pros include all of their shots? Whereas you seem to be saying conditional on hitting the green, you can be within X feet. Based on your 9 hole recap a while back, it seems like you missed the green four times with a 9 iron or PW. Those situations should be taken into consideration too.

 

I think Broadie's book said a 90 shooter hits the green 46% of the time from 100-150 vs. 80% of the time for guys on tour (or maybe scratch). Comparing one person's best shots to another group's average shot probably isn't the best way to do things.

[jpdx]

All stats and evidence is flawed when it doesn’t agree with my view. Is all I keep hearing.

 

@revanant thanks for looking all that up.

@agolf1 if I hit less than 46% greens from 100-150 am i guaranteed to shoot higher than 90?

[Titleist_PT23]

> @jpdx said:

> All stats and evidence is flawed when it doesn’t agree with my view. Is all I keep hearing.

>

> @revanant thanks for looking all that up.

> @agolf1 if I hit less than 46% greens from 100-150 am i guaranteed to shoot higher than 90?

I never said if you hit less than 46% of greens from 100-150 you are guaranteed to shoot higher than 90. Why would you say such a dumb thing? Further, I never told the person they can't play blades. Simply pointed out that the post seemed to be comparing different things, and claiming they were the same.

 

You seem to be the person that doesn't like to hear anything that doesn't agree with your view.

[Golfjack]

> @revanant said:

> > @duffer987 said:

> > > @revanant said:

> > > But it's the sort of improvement that's maybe only worth 1 to 3 strokes, I'd think. Mainly because my current iron play looks a lot like what I see on Sundays on TV--hitting the green with a 15 to 20 foot putt for birdie, or maybe needing a good up and down. The major difference is that I'll regularly turn that birdie putt into a 3 putt bogie, and I probably won't chip it close enough to save par. Of course, the pros get to the green with fewer strokes from much farther away. But when it comes to being on or around the green, we're playing a similar game. I'm just playing it a lot worse. : D

> > >

> >

> > :D

> > The recreational golfer who is an ace ballstriker at near tour level, but is held back by EVERYTHING else, is my favorite kind of delusional golfer.

> >

> >

> My point was more that tour-level pros don't put every ball on the pin, not that I'm amazing. : )

>

> The best ball strikers on tour are averaging 30 feet/10 yards on approach.

> Average Proximity from Hole: https://www.pgatour.com/stats/stat.331.html

>

> The stats are better from closer distances, but not a ton. From 50-125 yards out, pros range from between about 15 feet to 25 feet from the hole.

> Approach (50 yards to 125 yards): https://www.pgatour.com/stats/stat.340.html

>

> To me, these are long putts. However, nobody 3-putts. The % of 3 putts per hole range from a low of 1.44% (Wyndham Clark) to, at worst, less than 5% (Cameron Champ).

> 3 Putt Avoidance: https://www.pgatour.com/stats/stat.426.html

>

> Between 15 ft and 25 feet, there are a bunch of players who just never 3-putt. The worst are around 5% of the time.

> 3 Putt Avoidance (15-20 ft): https://www.pgatour.com/stats/stat.145.html

> 3 Putt Avoidance: (20-25 ft): https://www.pgatour.com/stats/stat.146.html

>

> I think a lot of us can put the ball within 20-30 feet of the pin with some frequency. But the big difference is that, when I get there, I might not get down in 2.

>

> In fact, I might not get down in 2 from 10 feet. And the solution can't be to put the ball closer than 15 feet to the hole all the time--because not even pros can meet that standard on average. This is why I'm not worrying about my iron choice any more. My irons are getting me into scoring position. But my putting is blowing up my scorecard.

 

You seriously need to reevaluate your game. You're not a world class ball striker. You are not tour level proximity. Look at their stats. They are about 5% from target. Scratch guys are about 10% I think. That means at 150 yards, even pro's end up on average 7.5 yards from the pin. A mid-high cap is about 30 yards away on average. You count every shot. Every duff, OB, hit in the bush, over the green flyer. Everything. If really all that's holding up is your putting, you should be scoring single digits to low 80s. Unless for some reason you putt with Thor's hammer. It's not that hard to get your putting down, just go practice and improve technique. It really makes a difference how you stand, face angle, tempo, consistencies. Try the iPing App. 3 putt from 10 feet is horrendous.

[revanant]

> @BiggErn said:

> > @revanant said:

> > > @duffer987 said:

> > > > @revanant said:

> > > > But it's the sort of improvement that's maybe only worth 1 to 3 strokes, I'd think. Mainly because my current iron play looks a lot like what I see on Sundays on TV--hitting the green with a 15 to 20 foot putt for birdie, or maybe needing a good up and down. The major difference is that I'll regularly turn that birdie putt into a 3 putt bogie, and I probably won't chip it close enough to save par. Of course, the pros get to the green with fewer strokes from much farther away. But when it comes to being on or around the green, we're playing a similar game. I'm just playing it a lot worse. : D

> > > >

> > >

> > > :D

> > > The recreational golfer who is an ace ballstriker at near tour level, but is held back by EVERYTHING else, is my favorite kind of delusional golfer.

> > >

> > >

> > My point was more that tour-level pros don't put every ball on the pin, not that I'm amazing. : )

> >

> > The best ball strikers on tour are averaging 30 feet/10 yards on approach.

> > Average Proximity from Hole: https://www.pgatour.com/stats/stat.331.html

> >

> > The stats are better from closer distances, but not a ton. From 50-125 yards out, pros range from between about 15 feet to 25 feet from the hole.

> > Approach (50 yards to 125 yards): https://www.pgatour.com/stats/stat.340.html

> >

> > To me, these are long putts. However, nobody 3-putts. The % of 3 putts per hole range from a low of 1.44% (Wyndham Clark) to, at worst, less than 5% (Cameron Champ).

> > 3 Putt Avoidance: https://www.pgatour.com/stats/stat.426.html

> >

> > Between 15 ft and 25 feet, there are a bunch of players who just never 3-putt. The worst are around 5% of the time.

> > 3 Putt Avoidance (15-20 ft): https://www.pgatour.com/stats/stat.145.html

> > 3 Putt Avoidance: (20-25 ft): https://www.pgatour.com/stats/stat.146.html

> >

> > I think a lot of us can put the ball within 20-30 feet of the pin with some frequency. But the big difference is that, when I get there, I might not get down in 2.

> >

> > In fact, I might not get down in 2 from 10 feet. And the solution can't be to put the ball closer than 15 feet to the hole all the time--because not even pros can meet that standard on average. This is why I'm not worrying about my iron choice any more. My irons are getting me into scoring position. But my putting is blowing up my scorecard.

>

> Yes except they hit the ball dead solid every time and shoot under par. Nobody is a world class ball striker and atrocious enough in every other aspect to be a double digit HC.

 

I’ve only been to one PGA tournament. It was the Northern Trust, two weeks ago. I watched Shane Lowry put a ball into the water with his 3 iron from the tee—he caught it low. I watched a lot of players miss greens, both long and short. When they hit the green, I saw a lot of balls with very long putts.

 

What was astonishing was how often PGA players hit iron shots that looked like mine (I.e. missing a green or leaving a long putt), but then either put the ball very close with a great chip, or managed an excellent lag putt to save par.

 

Justin Rose’s birdie on #16 was a real eye-opener for me. I watched him put his tee ball on the 17th tee box, about 50 yards right of the green. His pitch put him 24 feet away from the hole, on a two-tier green.

 

Put me in the same spot, putting for birdie, and I’m probably going to 3 putt for birdie. Maybe I’ll four putt for a double.

 

Justin Rose made his birdie putt. You can see hit here—the announcers were laughing about how far off his tee shot was.

https://www.pgatour.com/video/2019/08/11/justin-rose-jars-24-footer-for-birdie-at-the-northern-trust-.html

 

Look at the stats. PGA pros aren’t hitting 18/18 greens in regulation and they aren’t hitting iron shots within three feet of the pin, even from within short-iron range. They get into trouble and make a fair amount of mistakes. GIR % for 2019 ranges from 60% to 73%.

 

But what they do amazingly well, and what comes out when you watch a full round rather than the limited tv highlights, is save par. They hit excellent chips, and simply refuse to 3 putt. Which makes sense when you look at the statistics I posted. A ton of players have a 3-putt rate of 1% or less from within 25 feet.

 

The statistics don’t lie. If I’m an excellent pga pro with dead solid ball striking, I still have an average putt of 15 to 20 feet when within wedge and short iron distances. And I’m missing a GIR between 30% and 40% of the time.

 

So, personally, I’m not worried about hitting my irons 5 yards longer or 2 degrees steeper. I want to put my time and effort into making a big dent in my 3-putt rate when within 25 feet.

[jpdx]

> @agolf1 said:

> > @jpdx said:

> > All stats and evidence is flawed when it doesn’t agree with my view. Is all I keep hearing.

> >

> > @revanant thanks for looking all that up.

> > @agolf1 if I hit less than 46% greens from 100-150 am i guaranteed to shoot higher than 90?

> I never said if you hit less than 46% of greens from 100-150 you are guaranteed to shoot higher than 90. Why would you say such a dumb thing? Further, I never told the person they can't play blades. Simply pointed out that the post seemed to be comparing different things, and claiming they were the same.

>

> You seem to be the person that doesn't like to hear anything that doesn't agree with your view.

 

I’ve never read the book so I was simply asking If that was what the book wasn’t implying. Sorry.

 

I happen to have a friend who just picked the game up after a very long time. He hits less than 46% from 100-150. In fact I’d be surprised if he hits 25% tbh. He’s a 25, rarely breaks 100. We have fun out there. He plays cbs (just to be on topic).

 

People so touchy in this thread lol. I tend to post my quick thoughts without elaborating. Otherwise they end up being novels. Besides, it wasn’t a cb pro post lol. I kid I kid....

 

And with that, I think I’ll bow out. This thread makes me wound up.