I hate the "Leaving the flag in" rule

ThinkingPlus · April 25, 2019

> @bladehunter said:

> > @nsxguy said:

> > > @HatsForBats said:

> > > > @nsxguy said:

> > > > > @HatsForBats said:

> > > > > > @nsxguy said:

> > > > > > > @HatsForBats said:

> > > > > > > > @Sawgrass said:

> > > > > > > > > @HatsForBats said:

> > > > > > > > > > @Sawgrass said:

> > > > > > > > > > Agreeing to ignore 13.2 (the rule that expressly states in its purpose statement that you are allowed to putt with the pin in or out) by canceling a player's right to remove the flagstick is clearly ignoring a rule. As previously posted, that's a DQ.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > Do you really not see that? Or just wish it wasn't so? Like I said, do what you wish among like-minded people, but IMO it is useful to know what you're doing.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > As far as posting goes, that's an entirely separate issue. Many rounds that are a DQ require posting, some are not allowed to be posted. Given your private rules, you should look into that with the USGA handicap department.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > Player C in event one apparently did not have the choice removed.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > Plus the rule states 'The player must decide this before making the stroke, by either: •Leaving the flagstick where it is in the hole or moving it so that it is centred in the hole and leaving it there'. Before the round begins is before the stroke is made. They have not ignored the rule as they have made their decision for all strokes before the round is played and can change their mind without penalty stroke(s).

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Relentlessly in error.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > The USGA response is agreeing to leave the flag is not agreeing to ignore a rule. Sorry.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > What was the question you asked the USGA ? You are definitely allowed to post that.

> > > > >

> > > > > I asked if the group could agree before the round to play flag in for all 18 holes and specifically if it would be ignoring a rule to do so.

> > > >

> > > > But your original post on this was about was your COMMITTEE MANDATING the flag in (or was it out ?) for all players.

> > > >

> > > > THAT was the point of contention.

> > >

> > > That certainly was the way certain posters tried to steer it. As I recall it the **invite** was for people that wanted to try it out. If someone was against it they could choose not to play that event **or** could play the event and take the flag out without penalty strokes...… but not qualify for winnings. The last I checked the USGA was not in the habit of offering any advice on payouts. They did mention it would be a violation if someone was charged penalty strokes which if you read my posts you would find they would not be.

> >

> > Here is what *I* sent the USGA.

> >

> > _**"Can the Committee running an event under the Rules of Golf MANDATE that the flagstick stays IN (OR the flagstick always is taken out) for all putts by all players as part of the Conditions of Competition ?"**_

> >

> > Reply - No.

> >

>

> Lol. Great answer.

>

> True story. In my afternoon 9 today. Playing partner had a bunker shot from a downhill lie in the back of the trap. To a downhill slope on the green. He clipped it perfectly. Flew high and one hoped in front of the pin. Hit the pin and ride it straight down in the hole.

> I’m up next. I had a 20 ft pitch straight uphill. Clipped it perfect , hit and rolled out 5 feet or so. Hits the pin off center to the right and kicks it out. Stops 2 inches from the hole.

>

> I’m not sure if it’s anymore than a flip of the coin. Both of those happened inside 30 seconds. ( his ball was still in the cup when I hit ).

Pauli exclusion principle. Everyone knows golf balls are fermions. ;-)

bladehunter · April 25, 2019

> @ThinkingPlus said:

> > @bladehunter said:

> > > @nsxguy said:

> > > > @HatsForBats said:

> > > > > @nsxguy said:

> > > > > > @HatsForBats said:

> > > > > > > @nsxguy said:

> > > > > > > > @HatsForBats said:

> > > > > > > > > @Sawgrass said:

> > > > > > > > > > @HatsForBats said:

> > > > > > > > > > > @Sawgrass said:

> > > > > > > > > > > Agreeing to ignore 13.2 (the rule that expressly states in its purpose statement that you are allowed to putt with the pin in or out) by canceling a player's right to remove the flagstick is clearly ignoring a rule. As previously posted, that's a DQ.

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > Do you really not see that? Or just wish it wasn't so? Like I said, do what you wish among like-minded people, but IMO it is useful to know what you're doing.

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > As far as posting goes, that's an entirely separate issue. Many rounds that are a DQ require posting, some are not allowed to be posted. Given your private rules, you should look into that with the USGA handicap department.

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > Player C in event one apparently did not have the choice removed.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > Plus the rule states 'The player must decide this before making the stroke, by either: •Leaving the flagstick where it is in the hole or moving it so that it is centred in the hole and leaving it there'. Before the round begins is before the stroke is made. They have not ignored the rule as they have made their decision for all strokes before the round is played and can change their mind without penalty stroke(s).

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > Relentlessly in error.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > The USGA response is agreeing to leave the flag is not agreeing to ignore a rule. Sorry.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > What was the question you asked the USGA ? You are definitely allowed to post that.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I asked if the group could agree before the round to play flag in for all 18 holes and specifically if it would be ignoring a rule to do so.

> > > > >

> > > > > But your original post on this was about was your COMMITTEE MANDATING the flag in (or was it out ?) for all players.

> > > > >

> > > > > THAT was the point of contention.

> > > >

> > > > That certainly was the way certain posters tried to steer it. As I recall it the **invite** was for people that wanted to try it out. If someone was against it they could choose not to play that event **or** could play the event and take the flag out without penalty strokes...… but not qualify for winnings. The last I checked the USGA was not in the habit of offering any advice on payouts. They did mention it would be a violation if someone was charged penalty strokes which if you read my posts you would find they would not be.

> > >

> > > Here is what *I* sent the USGA.

> > >

> > > _**"Can the Committee running an event under the Rules of Golf MANDATE that the flagstick stays IN (OR the flagstick always is taken out) for all putts by all players as part of the Conditions of Competition ?"**_

> > >

> > > Reply - No.

> > >

> >

> > Lol. Great answer.

> >

> > True story. In my afternoon 9 today. Playing partner had a bunker shot from a downhill lie in the back of the trap. To a downhill slope on the green. He clipped it perfectly. Flew high and one hoped in front of the pin. Hit the pin and ride it straight down in the hole.

> > I’m up next. I had a 20 ft pitch straight uphill. Clipped it perfect , hit and rolled out 5 feet or so. Hits the pin off center to the right and kicks it out. Stops 2 inches from the hole.

> >

> > I’m not sure if it’s anymore than a flip of the coin. Both of those happened inside 30 seconds. ( his ball was still in the cup when I hit ).

>

> Pauli exclusion principle. Everyone knows golf balls are fermions. ;-)

> @ThinkingPlus said:

> > @bladehunter said:

> > > @nsxguy said:

> > > > @HatsForBats said:

> > > > > @nsxguy said:

> > > > > > @HatsForBats said:

> > > > > > > @nsxguy said:

> > > > > > > > @HatsForBats said:

> > > > > > > > > @Sawgrass said:

> > > > > > > > > > @HatsForBats said:

> > > > > > > > > > > @Sawgrass said:

> > > > > > > > > > > Agreeing to ignore 13.2 (the rule that expressly states in its purpose statement that you are allowed to putt with the pin in or out) by canceling a player's right to remove the flagstick is clearly ignoring a rule. As previously posted, that's a DQ.

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > Do you really not see that? Or just wish it wasn't so? Like I said, do what you wish among like-minded people, but IMO it is useful to know what you're doing.

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > As far as posting goes, that's an entirely separate issue. Many rounds that are a DQ require posting, some are not allowed to be posted. Given your private rules, you should look into that with the USGA handicap department.

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > Player C in event one apparently did not have the choice removed.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > Plus the rule states 'The player must decide this before making the stroke, by either: •Leaving the flagstick where it is in the hole or moving it so that it is centred in the hole and leaving it there'. Before the round begins is before the stroke is made. They have not ignored the rule as they have made their decision for all strokes before the round is played and can change their mind without penalty stroke(s).

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > Relentlessly in error.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > The USGA response is agreeing to leave the flag is not agreeing to ignore a rule. Sorry.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > What was the question you asked the USGA ? You are definitely allowed to post that.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I asked if the group could agree before the round to play flag in for all 18 holes and specifically if it would be ignoring a rule to do so.

> > > > >

> > > > > But your original post on this was about was your COMMITTEE MANDATING the flag in (or was it out ?) for all players.

> > > > >

> > > > > THAT was the point of contention.

> > > >

> > > > That certainly was the way certain posters tried to steer it. As I recall it the **invite** was for people that wanted to try it out. If someone was against it they could choose not to play that event **or** could play the event and take the flag out without penalty strokes...… but not qualify for winnings. The last I checked the USGA was not in the habit of offering any advice on payouts. They did mention it would be a violation if someone was charged penalty strokes which if you read my posts you would find they would not be.

> > >

> > > Here is what *I* sent the USGA.

> > >

> > > _**"Can the Committee running an event under the Rules of Golf MANDATE that the flagstick stays IN (OR the flagstick always is taken out) for all putts by all players as part of the Conditions of Competition ?"**_

> > >

> > > Reply - No.

> > >

> >

> > Lol. Great answer.

> >

> > True story. In my afternoon 9 today. Playing partner had a bunker shot from a downhill lie in the back of the trap. To a downhill slope on the green. He clipped it perfectly. Flew high and one hoped in front of the pin. Hit the pin and ride it straight down in the hole.

> > I’m up next. I had a 20 ft pitch straight uphill. Clipped it perfect , hit and rolled out 5 feet or so. Hits the pin off center to the right and kicks it out. Stops 2 inches from the hole.

> >

> > I’m not sure if it’s anymore than a flip of the coin. Both of those happened inside 30 seconds. ( his ball was still in the cup when I hit ).

>

> Pauli exclusion principle. Everyone knows golf balls are fermions. ;-)

I’m not at all embarrassed to say that I had to google that one. But I am embarrassed to say that I will have to study that one to get the joke. lol

As usual you are way over my head !

Shilgy · April 25, 2019

> @bladehunter said:

> > @ThinkingPlus said:

> > > @bladehunter said:

> > > > @nsxguy said:

> > > > > @HatsForBats said:

> > > > > > @nsxguy said:

> > > > > > > @HatsForBats said:

> > > > > > > > @nsxguy said:

> > > > > > > > > @HatsForBats said:

> > > > > > > > > > @Sawgrass said:

> > > > > > > > > > > @HatsForBats said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > @Sawgrass said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > Agreeing to ignore 13.2 (the rule that expressly states in its purpose statement that you are allowed to putt with the pin in or out) by canceling a player's right to remove the flagstick is clearly ignoring a rule. As previously posted, that's a DQ.

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > Do you really not see that? Or just wish it wasn't so? Like I said, do what you wish among like-minded people, but IMO it is useful to know what you're doing.

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > As far as posting goes, that's an entirely separate issue. Many rounds that are a DQ require posting, some are not allowed to be posted. Given your private rules, you should look into that with the USGA handicap department.

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > Player C in event one apparently did not have the choice removed.

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > Plus the rule states 'The player must decide this before making the stroke, by either: •Leaving the flagstick where it is in the hole or moving it so that it is centred in the hole and leaving it there'. Before the round begins is before the stroke is made. They have not ignored the rule as they have made their decision for all strokes before the round is played and can change their mind without penalty stroke(s).

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > Relentlessly in error.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > The USGA response is agreeing to leave the flag is not agreeing to ignore a rule. Sorry.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > What was the question you asked the USGA ? You are definitely allowed to post that.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > I asked if the group could agree before the round to play flag in for all 18 holes and specifically if it would be ignoring a rule to do so.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > But your original post on this was about was your COMMITTEE MANDATING the flag in (or was it out ?) for all players.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > THAT was the point of contention.

> > > > >

> > > > > That certainly was the way certain posters tried to steer it. As I recall it the **invite** was for people that wanted to try it out. If someone was against it they could choose not to play that event **or** could play the event and take the flag out without penalty strokes...… but not qualify for winnings. The last I checked the USGA was not in the habit of offering any advice on payouts. They did mention it would be a violation if someone was charged penalty strokes which if you read my posts you would find they would not be.

> > > >

> > > > Here is what *I* sent the USGA.

> > > >

> > > > _**"Can the Committee running an event under the Rules of Golf MANDATE that the flagstick stays IN (OR the flagstick always is taken out) for all putts by all players as part of the Conditions of Competition ?"**_

> > > >

> > > > Reply - No.

> > > >

> > >

> > > Lol. Great answer.

> > >

> > > True story. In my afternoon 9 today. Playing partner had a bunker shot from a downhill lie in the back of the trap. To a downhill slope on the green. He clipped it perfectly. Flew high and one hoped in front of the pin. Hit the pin and ride it straight down in the hole.

> > > I’m up next. I had a 20 ft pitch straight uphill. Clipped it perfect , hit and rolled out 5 feet or so. Hits the pin off center to the right and kicks it out. Stops 2 inches from the hole.

> > >

> > > I’m not sure if it’s anymore than a flip of the coin. Both of those happened inside 30 seconds. ( his ball was still in the cup when I hit ).

> >

> > Pauli exclusion principle. Everyone knows golf balls are fermions. ;-)

>

> > @ThinkingPlus said:

> > > @bladehunter said:

> > > > @nsxguy said:

> > > > > @HatsForBats said:

> > > > > > @nsxguy said:

> > > > > > > @HatsForBats said:

> > > > > > > > @nsxguy said:

> > > > > > > > > @HatsForBats said:

> > > > > > > > > > @Sawgrass said:

> > > > > > > > > > > @HatsForBats said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > @Sawgrass said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > Agreeing to ignore 13.2 (the rule that expressly states in its purpose statement that you are allowed to putt with the pin in or out) by canceling a player's right to remove the flagstick is clearly ignoring a rule. As previously posted, that's a DQ.

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > Do you really not see that? Or just wish it wasn't so? Like I said, do what you wish among like-minded people, but IMO it is useful to know what you're doing.

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > As far as posting goes, that's an entirely separate issue. Many rounds that are a DQ require posting, some are not allowed to be posted. Given your private rules, you should look into that with the USGA handicap department.

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > Player C in event one apparently did not have the choice removed.

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > Plus the rule states 'The player must decide this before making the stroke, by either: •Leaving the flagstick where it is in the hole or moving it so that it is centred in the hole and leaving it there'. Before the round begins is before the stroke is made. They have not ignored the rule as they have made their decision for all strokes before the round is played and can change their mind without penalty stroke(s).

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > Relentlessly in error.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > The USGA response is agreeing to leave the flag is not agreeing to ignore a rule. Sorry.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > What was the question you asked the USGA ? You are definitely allowed to post that.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > I asked if the group could agree before the round to play flag in for all 18 holes and specifically if it would be ignoring a rule to do so.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > But your original post on this was about was your COMMITTEE MANDATING the flag in (or was it out ?) for all players.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > THAT was the point of contention.

> > > > >

> > > > > That certainly was the way certain posters tried to steer it. As I recall it the **invite** was for people that wanted to try it out. If someone was against it they could choose not to play that event **or** could play the event and take the flag out without penalty strokes...… but not qualify for winnings. The last I checked the USGA was not in the habit of offering any advice on payouts. They did mention it would be a violation if someone was charged penalty strokes which if you read my posts you would find they would not be.

> > > >

> > > > Here is what *I* sent the USGA.

> > > >

> > > > _**"Can the Committee running an event under the Rules of Golf MANDATE that the flagstick stays IN (OR the flagstick always is taken out) for all putts by all players as part of the Conditions of Competition ?"**_

> > > >

> > > > Reply - No.

> > > >

> > >

> > > Lol. Great answer.

> > >

> > > True story. In my afternoon 9 today. Playing partner had a bunker shot from a downhill lie in the back of the trap. To a downhill slope on the green. He clipped it perfectly. Flew high and one hoped in front of the pin. Hit the pin and ride it straight down in the hole.

> > > I’m up next. I had a 20 ft pitch straight uphill. Clipped it perfect , hit and rolled out 5 feet or so. Hits the pin off center to the right and kicks it out. Stops 2 inches from the hole.

> > >

> > > I’m not sure if it’s anymore than a flip of the coin. Both of those happened inside 30 seconds. ( his ball was still in the cup when I hit ).

> >

> > Pauli exclusion principle. Everyone knows golf balls are fermions. ;-)

>

> I’m not at all embarrassed to say that I had to google that one. But I am embarrassed to say that I will have to study that one to get the joke. lol

>

> As usual you are way over my head !

Not just way over yours my friend. :blush:

HatsForBats · April 25, 2019

> @nsxguy said:

> > @HatsForBats said:

> > > @nsxguy said:

> > > > @HatsForBats said:

> > > > > @nsxguy said:

> > > > > > @HatsForBats said:

> > > > > > > @Sawgrass said:

> > > > > > > > @HatsForBats said:

> > > > > > > > > @Sawgrass said:

> > > > > > > > > Agreeing to ignore 13.2 (the rule that expressly states in its purpose statement that you are allowed to putt with the pin in or out) by canceling a player's right to remove the flagstick is clearly ignoring a rule. As previously posted, that's a DQ.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > Do you really not see that? Or just wish it wasn't so? Like I said, do what you wish among like-minded people, but IMO it is useful to know what you're doing.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > As far as posting goes, that's an entirely separate issue. Many rounds that are a DQ require posting, some are not allowed to be posted. Given your private rules, you should look into that with the USGA handicap department.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Player C in event one apparently did not have the choice removed.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Plus the rule states 'The player must decide this before making the stroke, by either: •Leaving the flagstick where it is in the hole or moving it so that it is centred in the hole and leaving it there'. Before the round begins is before the stroke is made. They have not ignored the rule as they have made their decision for all strokes before the round is played and can change their mind without penalty stroke(s).

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Relentlessly in error.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > The USGA response is agreeing to leave the flag is not agreeing to ignore a rule. Sorry.

> > > > >

> > > > > What was the question you asked the USGA ? You are definitely allowed to post that.

> > > >

> > > > I asked if the group could agree before the round to play flag in for all 18 holes and specifically if it would be ignoring a rule to do so.

> > >

> > > But your original post on this was about was your COMMITTEE MANDATING the flag in (or was it out ?) for all players.

> > >

> > > THAT was the point of contention.

> >

> > That certainly was the way certain posters tried to steer it. As I recall it the **invite** was for people that wanted to try it out. If someone was against it they could choose not to play that event **or** could play the event and take the flag out without penalty strokes...… but not qualify for winnings. The last I checked the USGA was not in the habit of offering any advice on payouts. They did mention it would be a violation if someone was charged penalty strokes which if you read my posts you would find they would not be.

>

> Here is what *I* sent the USGA.

>

> _**"Can the Committee running an event under the Rules of Golf MANDATE that the flagstick stays IN (OR the flagstick always is taken out) for all putts by all players as part of the Conditions of Competition ?"**_

>

> Reply - No.

>

I have my response from the USGA saved so I'm good to go. If you want you can go back to the USGA and frame your question more correctly. Lord knows if I ask the question you all won't believe it, right? I can see why they responded the way they did with the way you framed the question.

@HatsForBats said:

**or** could play the event and take the flag out **without penalty strokes**...… but not qualify for **winnings**

IMO your question should have been:

Can a group of everyday players (from 2 or more players) agree to have a bet where they play a full round with the flag in for all 18 holes? If the problem children in this group of players decided they were going to get in on the bet but then played with the flag out they would not be assessed any penalty strokes or have their round disqualified **for score posting purposes** but they couldn't win the bet. Is that legal under the rules of golf?

My guess is the USGA would respond with 'we don't get involved with bets between players'.

Sawgrass · April 25, 2019

Morph on, morph on. This whole thing started with a request made to a stranger who wasn't even part of a bet.

nsxguy · April 25, 2019

> @HatsForBats said:

> > @nsxguy said:

> > > @HatsForBats said:

> > > > @nsxguy said:

> > > > > @HatsForBats said:

> > > > > > @nsxguy said:

> > > > > > > @HatsForBats said:

> > > > > > > > @Sawgrass said:

> > > > > > > > > @HatsForBats said:

> > > > > > > > > > @Sawgrass said:

> > > > > > > > > > Agreeing to ignore 13.2 (the rule that expressly states in its purpose statement that you are allowed to putt with the pin in or out) by canceling a player's right to remove the flagstick is clearly ignoring a rule. As previously posted, that's a DQ.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > Do you really not see that? Or just wish it wasn't so? Like I said, do what you wish among like-minded people, but IMO it is useful to know what you're doing.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > As far as posting goes, that's an entirely separate issue. Many rounds that are a DQ require posting, some are not allowed to be posted. Given your private rules, you should look into that with the USGA handicap department.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > Player C in event one apparently did not have the choice removed.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > Plus the rule states 'The player must decide this before making the stroke, by either: •Leaving the flagstick where it is in the hole or moving it so that it is centred in the hole and leaving it there'. Before the round begins is before the stroke is made. They have not ignored the rule as they have made their decision for all strokes before the round is played and can change their mind without penalty stroke(s).

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Relentlessly in error.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > The USGA response is agreeing to leave the flag is not agreeing to ignore a rule. Sorry.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > What was the question you asked the USGA ? You are definitely allowed to post that.

> > > > >

> > > > > I asked if the group could agree before the round to play flag in for all 18 holes and specifically if it would be ignoring a rule to do so.

> > > >

> > > > But your original post on this was about was your COMMITTEE MANDATING the flag in (or was it out ?) for all players.

> > > >

> > > > THAT was the point of contention.

> > >

> > > That certainly was the way certain posters tried to steer it. As I recall it the **invite** was for people that wanted to try it out. If someone was against it they could choose not to play that event **or** could play the event and take the flag out without penalty strokes...… but not qualify for winnings. The last I checked the USGA was not in the habit of offering any advice on payouts. They did mention it would be a violation if someone was charged penalty strokes which if you read my posts you would find they would not be.

> >

> > Here is what *I* sent the USGA.

> >

> > _**"Can the Committee running an event under the Rules of Golf MANDATE that the flagstick stays IN (OR the flagstick always is taken out) for all putts by all players as part of the Conditions of Competition ?"**_

> >

> > Reply - No.

> >

> I have my response from the USGA saved so I'm good to go. If you want you can go back to the USGA and frame your question more correctly. Lord knows if I ask the question you all won't believe it, right? I can see why they responded the way they did with the way you framed the question.

>

> @HatsForBats said:

> **or** could play the event and take the flag out **without penalty strokes**...… but not qualify for **winnings**

>

> IMO your question should have been:

> Can a group of everyday players (from 2 or more players) agree to have a bet where they play a full round with the flag in for all 18 holes? If the problem children in this group of players decided they were going to get in on the bet but then played with the flag out they would not be assessed any penalty strokes or have their round disqualified **for score posting purposes** but they couldn't win the bet. Is that legal under the rules of golf?

>

> My guess is the USGA would respond with 'we don't get involved with bets between players'.

It's been a while.

IMO, your betting is irrelevant.

Did you or did you not say, or imply, that a "Commish" or "Committee" or even you guys as a group, as a condition of competition, playing under the Rules of Golf, that everybody has to leave the flag in (or out) ?

HatsForBats · April 25, 2019

> @nsxguy said:

> > @HatsForBats said:

> > > @nsxguy said:

> > > > @HatsForBats said:

> > > > > @nsxguy said:

> > > > > > @HatsForBats said:

> > > > > > > @nsxguy said:

> > > > > > > > @HatsForBats said:

> > > > > > > > > @Sawgrass said:

> > > > > > > > > > @HatsForBats said:

> > > > > > > > > > > @Sawgrass said:

> > > > > > > > > > > Agreeing to ignore 13.2 (the rule that expressly states in its purpose statement that you are allowed to putt with the pin in or out) by canceling a player's right to remove the flagstick is clearly ignoring a rule. As previously posted, that's a DQ.

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > Do you really not see that? Or just wish it wasn't so? Like I said, do what you wish among like-minded people, but IMO it is useful to know what you're doing.

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > As far as posting goes, that's an entirely separate issue. Many rounds that are a DQ require posting, some are not allowed to be posted. Given your private rules, you should look into that with the USGA handicap department.

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > Player C in event one apparently did not have the choice removed.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > Plus the rule states 'The player must decide this before making the stroke, by either: •Leaving the flagstick where it is in the hole or moving it so that it is centred in the hole and leaving it there'. Before the round begins is before the stroke is made. They have not ignored the rule as they have made their decision for all strokes before the round is played and can change their mind without penalty stroke(s).

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > Relentlessly in error.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > The USGA response is agreeing to leave the flag is not agreeing to ignore a rule. Sorry.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > What was the question you asked the USGA ? You are definitely allowed to post that.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I asked if the group could agree before the round to play flag in for all 18 holes and specifically if it would be ignoring a rule to do so.

> > > > >

> > > > > But your original post on this was about was your COMMITTEE MANDATING the flag in (or was it out ?) for all players.

> > > > >

> > > > > THAT was the point of contention.

> > > >

> > > > That certainly was the way certain posters tried to steer it. As I recall it the **invite** was for people that wanted to try it out. If someone was against it they could choose not to play that event **or** could play the event and take the flag out without penalty strokes...… but not qualify for winnings. The last I checked the USGA was not in the habit of offering any advice on payouts. They did mention it would be a violation if someone was charged penalty strokes which if you read my posts you would find they would not be.

> > >

> > > Here is what *I* sent the USGA.

> > >

> > > _**"Can the Committee running an event under the Rules of Golf MANDATE that the flagstick stays IN (OR the flagstick always is taken out) for all putts by all players as part of the Conditions of Competition ?"**_

> > >

> > > Reply - No.

> > >

> > I have my response from the USGA saved so I'm good to go. If you want you can go back to the USGA and frame your question more correctly. Lord knows if I ask the question you all won't believe it, right? I can see why they responded the way they did with the way you framed the question.

> >

> > @HatsForBats said:

> > **or** could play the event and take the flag out **without penalty strokes**...… but not qualify for **winnings**

> >

> > IMO your question should have been:

> > Can a group of everyday players (from 2 or more players) agree to have a bet where they play a full round with the flag in for all 18 holes? If the problem children in this group of players decided they were going to get in on the bet but then played with the flag out they would not be assessed any penalty strokes or have their round disqualified **for score posting purposes** but they couldn't win the bet. Is that legal under the rules of golf?

> >

> > My guess is the USGA would respond with 'we don't get involved with bets between players'.

>

> It's been a while.

>

> IMO, your betting is irrelevant.

>

> Did you or did you not say, or imply, that a "Commish" or "Committee" or even you guys as a group, as a condition of competition, playing under the Rules of Golf, that everybody has to leave the flag in (or out) ?

Just us guys and gals as a group.

Word it to the USGA like I posted in my last post and see what they say. As I said I have my response from the USGA saved so I'm good to go as far as I am concerned.

nsxguy · April 25, 2019

> @HatsForBats said:

> > @nsxguy said:

> > > @HatsForBats said:

> > > > @nsxguy said:

> > > > > @HatsForBats said:

> > > > > > @nsxguy said:

> > > > > > > @HatsForBats said:

> > > > > > > > @nsxguy said:

> > > > > > > > > @HatsForBats said:

> > > > > > > > > > @Sawgrass said:

> > > > > > > > > > > @HatsForBats said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > @Sawgrass said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > Agreeing to ignore 13.2 (the rule that expressly states in its purpose statement that you are allowed to putt with the pin in or out) by canceling a player's right to remove the flagstick is clearly ignoring a rule. As previously posted, that's a DQ.

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > Do you really not see that? Or just wish it wasn't so? Like I said, do what you wish among like-minded people, but IMO it is useful to know what you're doing.

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > As far as posting goes, that's an entirely separate issue. Many rounds that are a DQ require posting, some are not allowed to be posted. Given your private rules, you should look into that with the USGA handicap department.

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > Player C in event one apparently did not have the choice removed.

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > Plus the rule states 'The player must decide this before making the stroke, by either: •Leaving the flagstick where it is in the hole or moving it so that it is centred in the hole and leaving it there'. Before the round begins is before the stroke is made. They have not ignored the rule as they have made their decision for all strokes before the round is played and can change their mind without penalty stroke(s).

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > Relentlessly in error.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > The USGA response is agreeing to leave the flag is not agreeing to ignore a rule. Sorry.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > What was the question you asked the USGA ? You are definitely allowed to post that.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > I asked if the group could agree before the round to play flag in for all 18 holes and specifically if it would be ignoring a rule to do so.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > But your original post on this was about was your COMMITTEE MANDATING the flag in (or was it out ?) for all players.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > THAT was the point of contention.

> > > > >

> > > > > That certainly was the way certain posters tried to steer it. As I recall it the **invite** was for people that wanted to try it out. If someone was against it they could choose not to play that event **or** could play the event and take the flag out without penalty strokes...… but not qualify for winnings. The last I checked the USGA was not in the habit of offering any advice on payouts. They did mention it would be a violation if someone was charged penalty strokes which if you read my posts you would find they would not be.

> > > >

> > > > Here is what *I* sent the USGA.

> > > >

> > > > _**"Can the Committee running an event under the Rules of Golf MANDATE that the flagstick stays IN (OR the flagstick always is taken out) for all putts by all players as part of the Conditions of Competition ?"**_

> > > >

> > > > Reply - No.

> > > >

> > > I have my response from the USGA saved so I'm good to go. If you want you can go back to the USGA and frame your question more correctly. Lord knows if I ask the question you all won't believe it, right? I can see why they responded the way they did with the way you framed the question.

> > >

> > > @HatsForBats said:

> > > **or** could play the event and take the flag out **without penalty strokes**...… but not qualify for **winnings**

> > >

> > > IMO your question should have been:

> > > Can a group of everyday players (from 2 or more players) agree to have a bet where they play a full round with the flag in for all 18 holes? If the problem children in this group of players decided they were going to get in on the bet but then played with the flag out they would not be assessed any penalty strokes or have their round disqualified **for score posting purposes** but they couldn't win the bet. Is that legal under the rules of golf?

> > >

> > > My guess is the USGA would respond with 'we don't get involved with bets between players'.

> >

> > It's been a while.

> >

> > IMO, your betting is irrelevant.

> >

> > Did you or did you not say, or imply, that a "Commish" or "Committee" or even you guys as a group, as a condition of competition, playing under the Rules of Golf, that everybody has to leave the flag in (or out) ?

>

> Just us guys and gals as a group.

>

> Word it to the USGA like I posted in my last post and see what they say. As I said I have my response from the USGA saved so I'm good to go as far as I am concerned.

>

Are you a politician ? LOL

So that's a "No" then ? You didn't say Commish, Committee or imply it was an organized club ? My apologies for my poor memory.

Not that it really matters though.

You keep hanging your hat on the gambling issue because you know the USGA won't offer an answer because of the gambling,,,,,,,,,,,,, which is irrelevant.

You say you're playing under USGA Rules. You can be your own "committee". But you can not waive or change a Rule of Golf EXCEPT with authorized Local Rules.

And mandating the flag in or out is not one of them. Gambling has NOTHING to do with it.

Halebopp · April 25, 2019

Three rounds in and the flagstick has been pretty much a non issue. Most of the time people have been ready to make their first putts with the stick in or if someone wasn't, he has been close enough to the hole to not play first anyway and no one has wanted the stick back in for a shorter putt. I've seen two putts, which would've gone in without the flagstick, bounce out while the stick hasn't saved a single one albeit I've been slightly more aggressive on a couple of breaking downhill putts. Firmer putts with less break than what I would've done with the stick out, so maybe it has helped me mentally a couple of times.

The current flagsticks are worn and light though. They won't stand straight and they absorb a lot of the ball's energy at impact. Things might very well change once they change to the proper, more rigid ones.

HitEmTrue · April 26, 2019

> @HatsForBats said:

>

> Just us guys and gals as a group.

>

> Word it to the USGA like I posted in my last post and see what they say. As I said I have my response from the USGA saved so I'm good to go as far as I am concerned.

>

If the person who gets the lowest score pulled the pin on one of the holes, is he still listed at the top of the leaderboard? As 1st place, but just doesn’t receive payout?

HatsForBats · April 26, 2019

> @HitEmTrue said:

> > @HatsForBats said:

> >

> > Just us guys and gals as a group.

> >

> > Word it to the USGA like I posted in my last post and see what they say. As I said I have my response from the USGA saved so I'm good to go as far as I am concerned.

> >

>

> If the person who gets the lowest score pulled the pin on one of the holes, is he still listed at the top of the leaderboard? As 1st place, but just doesn’t receive payout?

>

Their score is their score. There is no penalty to their score for pulling the pin.

HatsForBats · April 26, 2019

> @nsxguy said:

> > @HatsForBats said:

> > > @nsxguy said:

> > > > @HatsForBats said:

> > > > > @nsxguy said:

> > > > > > @HatsForBats said:

> > > > > > > @nsxguy said:

> > > > > > > > @HatsForBats said:

> > > > > > > > > @nsxguy said:

> > > > > > > > > > @HatsForBats said:

> > > > > > > > > > > @Sawgrass said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > @HatsForBats said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > @Sawgrass said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > Agreeing to ignore 13.2 (the rule that expressly states in its purpose statement that you are allowed to putt with the pin in or out) by canceling a player's right to remove the flagstick is clearly ignoring a rule. As previously posted, that's a DQ.

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > Do you really not see that? Or just wish it wasn't so? Like I said, do what you wish among like-minded people, but IMO it is useful to know what you're doing.

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > As far as posting goes, that's an entirely separate issue. Many rounds that are a DQ require posting, some are not allowed to be posted. Given your private rules, you should look into that with the USGA handicap department.

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > Player C in event one apparently did not have the choice removed.

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > Plus the rule states 'The player must decide this before making the stroke, by either: •Leaving the flagstick where it is in the hole or moving it so that it is centred in the hole and leaving it there'. Before the round begins is before the stroke is made. They have not ignored the rule as they have made their decision for all strokes before the round is played and can change their mind without penalty stroke(s).

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > Relentlessly in error.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > The USGA response is agreeing to leave the flag is not agreeing to ignore a rule. Sorry.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > What was the question you asked the USGA ? You are definitely allowed to post that.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > I asked if the group could agree before the round to play flag in for all 18 holes and specifically if it would be ignoring a rule to do so.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > But your original post on this was about was your COMMITTEE MANDATING the flag in (or was it out ?) for all players.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > THAT was the point of contention.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > That certainly was the way certain posters tried to steer it. As I recall it the **invite** was for people that wanted to try it out. If someone was against it they could choose not to play that event **or** could play the event and take the flag out without penalty strokes...… but not qualify for winnings. The last I checked the USGA was not in the habit of offering any advice on payouts. They did mention it would be a violation if someone was charged penalty strokes which if you read my posts you would find they would not be.

> > > > >

> > > > > Here is what *I* sent the USGA.

> > > > >

> > > > > _**"Can the Committee running an event under the Rules of Golf MANDATE that the flagstick stays IN (OR the flagstick always is taken out) for all putts by all players as part of the Conditions of Competition ?"**_

> > > > >

> > > > > Reply - No.

> > > > >

> > > > I have my response from the USGA saved so I'm good to go. If you want you can go back to the USGA and frame your question more correctly. Lord knows if I ask the question you all won't believe it, right? I can see why they responded the way they did with the way you framed the question.

> > > >

> > > > @HatsForBats said:

> > > > **or** could play the event and take the flag out **without penalty strokes**...… but not qualify for **winnings**

> > > >

> > > > IMO your question should have been:

> > > > Can a group of everyday players (from 2 or more players) agree to have a bet where they play a full round with the flag in for all 18 holes? If the problem children in this group of players decided they were going to get in on the bet but then played with the flag out they would not be assessed any penalty strokes or have their round disqualified **for score posting purposes** but they couldn't win the bet. Is that legal under the rules of golf?

> > > >

> > > > My guess is the USGA would respond with 'we don't get involved with bets between players'.

> > >

> > > It's been a while.

> > >

> > > IMO, your betting is irrelevant.

> > >

> > > Did you or did you not say, or imply, that a "Commish" or "Committee" or even you guys as a group, as a condition of competition, playing under the Rules of Golf, that everybody has to leave the flag in (or out) ?

> >

> > Just us guys and gals as a group.

> >

> > Word it to the USGA like I posted in my last post and see what they say. As I said I have my response from the USGA saved so I'm good to go as far as I am concerned.

> >

> But you can not waive or change a Rule of Golf EXCEPT with authorized Local Rules.

I have an email from my Local Association that says we would not be ignoring a rule.

Dpavs · April 26, 2019

> @Shilgy said:

> > @bladehunter said:

> > > @ThinkingPlus said:

> > > > @bladehunter said:

> > > > > @nsxguy said:

> > > > > > @HatsForBats said:

> > > > > > > @nsxguy said:

> > > > > > > > @HatsForBats said:

> > > > > > > > > @nsxguy said:

> > > > > > > > > > @HatsForBats said:

> > > > > > > > > > > @Sawgrass said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > @HatsForBats said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > @Sawgrass said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > Agreeing to ignore 13.2 (the rule that expressly states in its purpose statement that you are allowed to putt with the pin in or out) by canceling a player's right to remove the flagstick is clearly ignoring a rule. As previously posted, that's a DQ.

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > Do you really not see that? Or just wish it wasn't so? Like I said, do what you wish among like-minded people, but IMO it is useful to know what you're doing.

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > As far as posting goes, that's an entirely separate issue. Many rounds that are a DQ require posting, some are not allowed to be posted. Given your private rules, you should look into that with the USGA handicap department.

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > Player C in event one apparently did not have the choice removed.

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > Plus the rule states 'The player must decide this before making the stroke, by either: •Leaving the flagstick where it is in the hole or moving it so that it is centred in the hole and leaving it there'. Before the round begins is before the stroke is made. They have not ignored the rule as they have made their decision for all strokes before the round is played and can change their mind without penalty stroke(s).

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > Relentlessly in error.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > The USGA response is agreeing to leave the flag is not agreeing to ignore a rule. Sorry.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > What was the question you asked the USGA ? You are definitely allowed to post that.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > I asked if the group could agree before the round to play flag in for all 18 holes and specifically if it would be ignoring a rule to do so.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > But your original post on this was about was your COMMITTEE MANDATING the flag in (or was it out ?) for all players.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > THAT was the point of contention.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > That certainly was the way certain posters tried to steer it. As I recall it the **invite** was for people that wanted to try it out. If someone was against it they could choose not to play that event **or** could play the event and take the flag out without penalty strokes...… but not qualify for winnings. The last I checked the USGA was not in the habit of offering any advice on payouts. They did mention it would be a violation if someone was charged penalty strokes which if you read my posts you would find they would not be.

> > > > >

> > > > > Here is what *I* sent the USGA.

> > > > >

> > > > > _**"Can the Committee running an event under the Rules of Golf MANDATE that the flagstick stays IN (OR the flagstick always is taken out) for all putts by all players as part of the Conditions of Competition ?"**_

> > > > >

> > > > > Reply - No.

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > Lol. Great answer.

> > > >

> > > > True story. In my afternoon 9 today. Playing partner had a bunker shot from a downhill lie in the back of the trap. To a downhill slope on the green. He clipped it perfectly. Flew high and one hoped in front of the pin. Hit the pin and ride it straight down in the hole.

> > > > I’m up next. I had a 20 ft pitch straight uphill. Clipped it perfect , hit and rolled out 5 feet or so. Hits the pin off center to the right and kicks it out. Stops 2 inches from the hole.

> > > >

> > > > I’m not sure if it’s anymore than a flip of the coin. Both of those happened inside 30 seconds. ( his ball was still in the cup when I hit ).

> > >

> > > Pauli exclusion principle. Everyone knows golf balls are fermions. ;-)

> >

> > > @ThinkingPlus said:

> > > > @bladehunter said:

> > > > > @nsxguy said:

> > > > > > @HatsForBats said:

> > > > > > > @nsxguy said:

> > > > > > > > @HatsForBats said:

> > > > > > > > > @nsxguy said:

> > > > > > > > > > @HatsForBats said:

> > > > > > > > > > > @Sawgrass said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > @HatsForBats said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > @Sawgrass said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > Agreeing to ignore 13.2 (the rule that expressly states in its purpose statement that you are allowed to putt with the pin in or out) by canceling a player's right to remove the flagstick is clearly ignoring a rule. As previously posted, that's a DQ.

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > Do you really not see that? Or just wish it wasn't so? Like I said, do what you wish among like-minded people, but IMO it is useful to know what you're doing.

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > As far as posting goes, that's an entirely separate issue. Many rounds that are a DQ require posting, some are not allowed to be posted. Given your private rules, you should look into that with the USGA handicap department.

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > Player C in event one apparently did not have the choice removed.

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > Plus the rule states 'The player must decide this before making the stroke, by either: •Leaving the flagstick where it is in the hole or moving it so that it is centred in the hole and leaving it there'. Before the round begins is before the stroke is made. They have not ignored the rule as they have made their decision for all strokes before the round is played and can change their mind without penalty stroke(s).

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > Relentlessly in error.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > The USGA response is agreeing to leave the flag is not agreeing to ignore a rule. Sorry.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > What was the question you asked the USGA ? You are definitely allowed to post that.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > I asked if the group could agree before the round to play flag in for all 18 holes and specifically if it would be ignoring a rule to do so.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > But your original post on this was about was your COMMITTEE MANDATING the flag in (or was it out ?) for all players.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > THAT was the point of contention.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > That certainly was the way certain posters tried to steer it. As I recall it the **invite** was for people that wanted to try it out. If someone was against it they could choose not to play that event **or** could play the event and take the flag out without penalty strokes...… but not qualify for winnings. The last I checked the USGA was not in the habit of offering any advice on payouts. They did mention it would be a violation if someone was charged penalty strokes which if you read my posts you would find they would not be.

> > > > >

> > > > > Here is what *I* sent the USGA.

> > > > >

> > > > > _**"Can the Committee running an event under the Rules of Golf MANDATE that the flagstick stays IN (OR the flagstick always is taken out) for all putts by all players as part of the Conditions of Competition ?"**_

> > > > >

> > > > > Reply - No.

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > Lol. Great answer.

> > > >

> > > > True story. In my afternoon 9 today. Playing partner had a bunker shot from a downhill lie in the back of the trap. To a downhill slope on the green. He clipped it perfectly. Flew high and one hoped in front of the pin. Hit the pin and ride it straight down in the hole.

> > > > I’m up next. I had a 20 ft pitch straight uphill. Clipped it perfect , hit and rolled out 5 feet or so. Hits the pin off center to the right and kicks it out. Stops 2 inches from the hole.

> > > >

> > > > I’m not sure if it’s anymore than a flip of the coin. Both of those happened inside 30 seconds. ( his ball was still in the cup when I hit ).

> > >

> > > Pauli exclusion principle. Everyone knows golf balls are fermions. ;-)

> >

> > I’m not at all embarrassed to say that I had to google that one. But I am embarrassed to say that I will have to study that one to get the joke. lol

> >

> > As usual you are way over my head !

>

> Not just way over yours my friend. :blush:

I think what ThinkingPlus is saying is that since your friends golf ball (fermion) went in the hole, yours could not because only one fermion can occupy a quantum space at any specific time. Next time make sure you both buy the same boson golf ball and you will not have to worry about this happening again. Right ThinkingPlus?

nsxguy · April 26, 2019

> @HitEmTrue said:

> > @HatsForBats said:

> >

> > Just us guys and gals as a group.

> >

> > Word it to the USGA like I posted in my last post and see what they say. As I said I have my response from the USGA saved so I'm good to go as far as I am concerned.

> >

>

> If the person who gets the lowest score pulled the pin on one of the holes, is he still listed at the top of the leaderboard? As 1st place, but just doesn’t receive payout?

>

Forget it. You can't get a straight answer from this guy. He should run for office

Edited to add -

See ?

"Their score is their score. There is no penalty to their score for pulling the pin." LMAO

And NOW it's answer from his local association, apparently NOT the USGA (unless he asked both) AND he didn't tell us WHAT he asked his local association (unless it was the same question he said he asked earlier).

ThinkingPlus · April 26, 2019

> @Dpavs said:

> > @Shilgy said:

> > > @bladehunter said:

> > > > @ThinkingPlus said:

> > > > > @bladehunter said:

> > > > > > @nsxguy said:

> > > > > > > @HatsForBats said:

> > > > > > > > @nsxguy said:

> > > > > > > > > @HatsForBats said:

> > > > > > > > > > @nsxguy said:

> > > > > > > > > > > @HatsForBats said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > @Sawgrass said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > @HatsForBats said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > @Sawgrass said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Agreeing to ignore 13.2 (the rule that expressly states in its purpose statement that you are allowed to putt with the pin in or out) by canceling a player's right to remove the flagstick is clearly ignoring a rule. As previously posted, that's a DQ.

> > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Do you really not see that? Or just wish it wasn't so? Like I said, do what you wish among like-minded people, but IMO it is useful to know what you're doing.

> > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > As far as posting goes, that's an entirely separate issue. Many rounds that are a DQ require posting, some are not allowed to be posted. Given your private rules, you should look into that with the USGA handicap department.

> > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > Player C in event one apparently did not have the choice removed.

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > Plus the rule states 'The player must decide this before making the stroke, by either: •Leaving the flagstick where it is in the hole or moving it so that it is centred in the hole and leaving it there'. Before the round begins is before the stroke is made. They have not ignored the rule as they have made their decision for all strokes before the round is played and can change their mind without penalty stroke(s).

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > Relentlessly in error.

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > The USGA response is agreeing to leave the flag is not agreeing to ignore a rule. Sorry.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > What was the question you asked the USGA ? You are definitely allowed to post that.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > I asked if the group could agree before the round to play flag in for all 18 holes and specifically if it would be ignoring a rule to do so.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > But your original post on this was about was your COMMITTEE MANDATING the flag in (or was it out ?) for all players.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > THAT was the point of contention.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > That certainly was the way certain posters tried to steer it. As I recall it the **invite** was for people that wanted to try it out. If someone was against it they could choose not to play that event **or** could play the event and take the flag out without penalty strokes...… but not qualify for winnings. The last I checked the USGA was not in the habit of offering any advice on payouts. They did mention it would be a violation if someone was charged penalty strokes which if you read my posts you would find they would not be.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Here is what *I* sent the USGA.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > _**"Can the Committee running an event under the Rules of Golf MANDATE that the flagstick stays IN (OR the flagstick always is taken out) for all putts by all players as part of the Conditions of Competition ?"**_

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Reply - No.

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > Lol. Great answer.

> > > > >

> > > > > True story. In my afternoon 9 today. Playing partner had a bunker shot from a downhill lie in the back of the trap. To a downhill slope on the green. He clipped it perfectly. Flew high and one hoped in front of the pin. Hit the pin and ride it straight down in the hole.

> > > > > I’m up next. I had a 20 ft pitch straight uphill. Clipped it perfect , hit and rolled out 5 feet or so. Hits the pin off center to the right and kicks it out. Stops 2 inches from the hole.

> > > > >

> > > > > I’m not sure if it’s anymore than a flip of the coin. Both of those happened inside 30 seconds. ( his ball was still in the cup when I hit ).

> > > >

> > > > Pauli exclusion principle. Everyone knows golf balls are fermions. ;-)

> > >

> > > > @ThinkingPlus said:

> > > > > @bladehunter said:

> > > > > > @nsxguy said:

> > > > > > > @HatsForBats said:

> > > > > > > > @nsxguy said:

> > > > > > > > > @HatsForBats said:

> > > > > > > > > > @nsxguy said:

> > > > > > > > > > > @HatsForBats said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > @Sawgrass said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > @HatsForBats said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > @Sawgrass said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Agreeing to ignore 13.2 (the rule that expressly states in its purpose statement that you are allowed to putt with the pin in or out) by canceling a player's right to remove the flagstick is clearly ignoring a rule. As previously posted, that's a DQ.

> > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Do you really not see that? Or just wish it wasn't so? Like I said, do what you wish among like-minded people, but IMO it is useful to know what you're doing.

> > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > As far as posting goes, that's an entirely separate issue. Many rounds that are a DQ require posting, some are not allowed to be posted. Given your private rules, you should look into that with the USGA handicap department.

> > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > Player C in event one apparently did not have the choice removed.

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > Plus the rule states 'The player must decide this before making the stroke, by either: •Leaving the flagstick where it is in the hole or moving it so that it is centred in the hole and leaving it there'. Before the round begins is before the stroke is made. They have not ignored the rule as they have made their decision for all strokes before the round is played and can change their mind without penalty stroke(s).

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > Relentlessly in error.

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > The USGA response is agreeing to leave the flag is not agreeing to ignore a rule. Sorry.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > What was the question you asked the USGA ? You are definitely allowed to post that.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > I asked if the group could agree before the round to play flag in for all 18 holes and specifically if it would be ignoring a rule to do so.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > But your original post on this was about was your COMMITTEE MANDATING the flag in (or was it out ?) for all players.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > THAT was the point of contention.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > That certainly was the way certain posters tried to steer it. As I recall it the **invite** was for people that wanted to try it out. If someone was against it they could choose not to play that event **or** could play the event and take the flag out without penalty strokes...… but not qualify for winnings. The last I checked the USGA was not in the habit of offering any advice on payouts. They did mention it would be a violation if someone was charged penalty strokes which if you read my posts you would find they would not be.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Here is what *I* sent the USGA.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > _**"Can the Committee running an event under the Rules of Golf MANDATE that the flagstick stays IN (OR the flagstick always is taken out) for all putts by all players as part of the Conditions of Competition ?"**_

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Reply - No.

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > Lol. Great answer.

> > > > >

> > > > > True story. In my afternoon 9 today. Playing partner had a bunker shot from a downhill lie in the back of the trap. To a downhill slope on the green. He clipped it perfectly. Flew high and one hoped in front of the pin. Hit the pin and ride it straight down in the hole.

> > > > > I’m up next. I had a 20 ft pitch straight uphill. Clipped it perfect , hit and rolled out 5 feet or so. Hits the pin off center to the right and kicks it out. Stops 2 inches from the hole.

> > > > >

> > > > > I’m not sure if it’s anymore than a flip of the coin. Both of those happened inside 30 seconds. ( his ball was still in the cup when I hit ).

> > > >

> > > > Pauli exclusion principle. Everyone knows golf balls are fermions. ;-)

> > >

> > > I’m not at all embarrassed to say that I had to google that one. But I am embarrassed to say that I will have to study that one to get the joke. lol

> > >

> > > As usual you are way over my head !

> >

> > Not just way over yours my friend. :blush:

>

> I think what ThinkingPlus is saying is that since your friends golf ball (fermion) went in the hole, yours could not because only one fermion can occupy a quantum space at any specific time. Next time make sure you both buy the same boson golf ball and you will not have to worry about this happening again. Right ThinkingPlus?

Yes, indeed.

HatsForBats · April 26, 2019

> @nsxguy said:

> > @HitEmTrue said:

> > > @HatsForBats said:

> > >

> > > Just us guys and gals as a group.

> > >

> > > Word it to the USGA like I posted in my last post and see what they say. As I said I have my response from the USGA saved so I'm good to go as far as I am concerned.

> > >

> >

> > If the person who gets the lowest score pulled the pin on one of the holes, is he still listed at the top of the leaderboard? As 1st place, but just doesn’t receive payout?

> >

>

> Forget it. You can't get a straight answer from this guy. He should run for office

>

> Edited to add -

>

> See ?

>

> "Their score is their score. There is no penalty to their score for pulling the pin." LMAO

>

> And NOW it's answer from his local association, apparently NOT the USGA (unless he asked both) AND he didn't tell us WHAT he asked his local association (unless it was the same question he said he asked earlier).

>

How is that not a straight answer? If they were not assessed any penalty strokes would they have the lowest score? Do we need to give them a participation trophy and show them, with a hand gesture, that they are number one.... as far as scoring is concerned?

The 1 and only question was sent to the USGA. The one and only response to that one and only question was answered by someone whose signature seemed to indicate they were from my local Golf Association (GAP - Golf Association of Philadelphia). It is on my home computer so I don’t have direct access to the email from work. I would offer to copy and paste the response but you know…. their rules.

nsxguy · April 26, 2019

> @HatsForBats said:

> > @nsxguy said:

> > > @HitEmTrue said:

> > > > @HatsForBats said:

> > > >

> > > > Just us guys and gals as a group.

> > > >

> > > > Word it to the USGA like I posted in my last post and see what they say. As I said I have my response from the USGA saved so I'm good to go as far as I am concerned.

> > > >

> > >

> > > **If the person who gets the lowest score pulled the pin on one of the holes, is he still listed at the top of the leaderboard? As 1st place, but just doesn’t receive payout?**

> > >

> >

> > Forget it. You can't get a straight answer from this guy. He should run for office

> >

> > Edited to add -

> >

> > See ?

> >

> > "Their score is their score. There is no penalty to their score for pulling the pin." LMAO

> >

> > And NOW it's answer from his local association, apparently NOT the USGA (unless he asked both) AND he didn't tell us WHAT he asked his local association (unless it was the same question he said he asked earlier).

> >

>

> How is that not a straight answer? If they were not assessed any penalty strokes would they have the lowest score? Do we need to give them a participation trophy and show them, with a hand gesture, that they are number one.... as far as scoring is concerned?

>

> The 1 and only question was sent to the USGA. The one and only response to that one and only question was answered by someone whose signature seemed to indicate they were from my local Golf Association (GAP - Golf Association of Philadelphia). It is on my home computer so I don’t have direct access to the email from work. I would offer to copy and paste the response but you know…. their rules.

Your a truly a piece of work.

You know very well the "important" question he was asking (or DO you ?).

Correct me if I'm wrong but you'd commented earlier something along the lines that a player could pull the flag, AGAINST the "condition of competition" of mandating leaving it IN), but he wouldn't get any $$$.

His questions were "If the person who gets the lowest score pulled the pin on one of the holes, is he still listed at the top of the leaderboard? **As 1st place, but just doesn’t receive payout?**

And your answer was "Their score is their score. There is no penalty to their score for pulling the pin." And you ask "How is that not a straight answer ? LMAO

And BTW, did you send the (bogus) question to [email protected] ? Or did you sent it to your association. I'd guess the local association since none of the answers I got came from a local association. They came from the USGA. No matter though since you intentionally (IMO) didn't ask the right question to begin with - and you no doubt know it.

Shilgy · April 26, 2019

> @HatsForBats said:

> > @nsxguy said:

> > > @HitEmTrue said:

> > > > @HatsForBats said:

> > > >

> > > > Just us guys and gals as a group.

> > > >

> > > > Word it to the USGA like I posted in my last post and see what they say. As I said I have my response from the USGA saved so I'm good to go as far as I am concerned.

> > > >

> > >

> > > If the person who gets the lowest score pulled the pin on one of the holes, is he still listed at the top of the leaderboard? As 1st place, but just doesn’t receive payout?

> > >

> >

> > Forget it. You can't get a straight answer from this guy. He should run for office

> >

> > Edited to add -

> >

> > See ?

> >

> > "Their score is their score. There is no penalty to their score for pulling the pin." LMAO

> >

> > And NOW it's answer from his local association, apparently NOT the USGA (unless he asked both) AND he didn't tell us WHAT he asked his local association (unless it was the same question he said he asked earlier).

> >

>

> How is that not a straight answer? If they were not assessed any penalty strokes would they have the lowest score? Do we need to give them a participation trophy and show them, with a hand gesture, that they are number one.... as far as scoring is concerned?

>

> The 1 and only question was sent to the USGA. The one and only response to that one and only question was answered by someone whose signature seemed to indicate they were from my local Golf Association (GAP - Golf Association of Philadelphia). It is on my home computer so I don’t have direct access to the email from work. I would offer to copy and paste the response but you know…. their rules.

Yes-you do not add penalty strokes to their score as you noted. BUT you do DQ them from the competition-for following the USGA mandated rules.

HatsForBats · April 26, 2019

> @nsxguy said:

> > @HatsForBats said:

> > > @nsxguy said:

> > > > @HitEmTrue said:

> > > > > @HatsForBats said:

> > > > >

> > > > > Just us guys and gals as a group.

> > > > >

> > > > > Word it to the USGA like I posted in my last post and see what they say. As I said I have my response from the USGA saved so I'm good to go as far as I am concerned.

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > **If the person who gets the lowest score pulled the pin on one of the holes, is he still listed at the top of the leaderboard? As 1st place, but just doesn’t receive payout?**

> > > >

> > >

> > > Forget it. You can't get a straight answer from this guy. He should run for office

> > >

> > > Edited to add -

> > >

> > > See ?

> > >

> > > "Their score is their score. There is no penalty to their score for pulling the pin." LMAO

> > >

> > > And NOW it's answer from his local association, apparently NOT the USGA (unless he asked both) AND he didn't tell us WHAT he asked his local association (unless it was the same question he said he asked earlier).

> > >

> >

> > How is that not a straight answer? If they were not assessed any penalty strokes would they have the lowest score? Do we need to give them a participation trophy and show them, with a hand gesture, that they are number one.... as far as scoring is concerned?

> >

> > The 1 and only question was sent to the USGA. The one and only response to that one and only question was answered by someone whose signature seemed to indicate they were from my local Golf Association (GAP - Golf Association of Philadelphia). It is on my home computer so I don’t have direct access to the email from work. I would offer to copy and paste the response but you know…. their rules.

>

> Your a truly a piece of work.

>

> You know very well the "important" question he was asking (or DO you ?).

>

> Correct me if I'm wrong but you'd commented earlier something along the lines that a player could pull the flag, AGAINST the "condition of competition" of mandating leaving it IN), but he wouldn't get any $$$.

>

> His questions were "If the person who gets the lowest score pulled the pin on one of the holes, is he still listed at the top of the leaderboard? **As 1st place, but just doesn’t receive payout?**

>

> And your answer was "Their score is their score. There is no penalty to their score for pulling the pin." And you ask "How is that not a straight answer ? LMAO

>

> And BTW, did you send the (bogus) question to [email protected] ? Or did you sent it to your association. I'd guess the local association since none of the answers I got came from a local association. They came from the USGA. No matter though since you intentionally (IMO) didn't ask the right question to begin with - and you no doubt know it.

>

http://www.usga.org/rules-hub/rules-queries.html

I thought the gambling didn't matter or are you going back on that now? They would not receive any payout for that part of the bet but could collect on other bets if they had any going. Is the hand gesture not enough of a prize?

> @Shilgy said:

> > @HatsForBats said:

> > > @nsxguy said:

> > > > @HitEmTrue said:

> > > > > @HatsForBats said:

> > > > >

> > > > > Just us guys and gals as a group.

> > > > >

> > > > > Word it to the USGA like I posted in my last post and see what they say. As I said I have my response from the USGA saved so I'm good to go as far as I am concerned.

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > If the person who gets the lowest score pulled the pin on one of the holes, is he still listed at the top of the leaderboard? As 1st place, but just doesn’t receive payout?

> > > >

> > >

> > > Forget it. You can't get a straight answer from this guy. He should run for office

> > >

> > > Edited to add -

> > >

> > > See ?

> > >

> > > "Their score is their score. There is no penalty to their score for pulling the pin." LMAO

> > >

> > > And NOW it's answer from his local association, apparently NOT the USGA (unless he asked both) AND he didn't tell us WHAT he asked his local association (unless it was the same question he said he asked earlier).

> > >

> >

> > How is that not a straight answer? If they were not assessed any penalty strokes would they have the lowest score? Do we need to give them a participation trophy and show them, with a hand gesture, that they are number one.... as far as scoring is concerned?

> >

> > The 1 and only question was sent to the USGA. The one and only response to that one and only question was answered by someone whose signature seemed to indicate they were from my local Golf Association (GAP - Golf Association of Philadelphia). It is on my home computer so I don’t have direct access to the email from work. I would offer to copy and paste the response but you know…. their rules.

>

> Yes-you do not add penalty strokes to their score as you noted. BUT you do DQ them from the competition-for following the USGA mandated rules.

They are only DQ'ed from winning the bet. Does the USGA want to get involved with betting? According to NSXGuy the gambling is irrelevant.

nsxguy · April 26, 2019

> @dpb5031 said:

> > @Augster said:

> > > @farmer said:

> > > > @dpb5031 said:

> > > > > @farmer said:

> > > > > > @dpb5031 said:

> > > > > > Another study concluding that more putts will be holed with the flag stick OUT:

> > > > > >

> > > > > > https://www.golfdigest.com/story/the-science-behind-why-the-flagstick-should-be-pulled-999-percent-of-the-time?utm_brand=gd&utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook&mbid=social_facebook&utm_social-type=owned&fbclid=IwAR3uLxv2A0-b18qcAuofJMa4euL5ktuEyI1n6kRRufQmd9kJSIdLJ30

> > > > > So, they determined that a putt going 9+ feet past the hole is not likely to be helped by the flagstick? That is, indeed, amazing information.

> > > >

> > > > I don't think you read it right. The way I read it, only putts that are traveling at a speed that would result in them rolling 9' (or more) past the hole are more likely to be helped by leaving the flag stick in.

> > > >

> > > > Anything rolling at a speed less than 8' past the hole has a higher probability of going in with the flag stick OUT. According to the study, the flagstick is generally only a benefit if you hit it dead center, which is not a high percentage play, even for Tour pros.

> > >

> > > I misread it, but it is an absurd piece of data. A putt "only" going 8' by the hole is not going in, unless it hits the exact center of the back of the hole and gets a good bounce. A real study needs some data from putts that are going to end up in the 3' Magic Circle.

> >

> > This is the most credible study to date IMO. It pretty much backs up what I’ve deduced while playing this year.

> >

> > In a nutshell, if you think you’ll have speed issues, that is, LONG putts, where you may roll the ball well past the hole, leave the stick in. If it’s center cut, the pin will hole it.

> >

> > If you won’t have speed issues, I.e., not going to ram it more than 5 feet past the hole, take it out. The off-center strikes on the flag on good speed putts are more likely to miss than if you left the flag out.

> >

> > Personally, I think it’s much ado about nothing, because it happens so infrequently. BUT, I have seen the off-center hit stay out of the hole, especially low side, when the ball likely would have gone in without the flag on there. I’ve seen it a few times this year already.

> >

> > That study just backed up what I’ve seen so far this year on the course. For the pros to “always leave it in” on shorter putts is asinine. Every time I see it I say, “YOU DON’T have speed issues!” Pin in/pin out will make ZERO difference on putts that are only going to go 18 inches past the cup. The ball will already be holed at that speed before it ever hits the pin. On-Center or off.

> >

>

> Agree 100%. I've got nearly 60 rounds in under the new rule and although I prefer the stick out, I play with some who prefer it left in for all putts. I've seen enough breaking putts (both high side & low side) enter the hole off-center and get deflected by the flagstick when everyone in the group agreed it would have dropped had the stick been out. This study supports what I've been seeing on the course with a fairly large sample size given my number of rounds played under the new rule.

"Everyone agreed",,,,,,, but they can't know for sure. And that is the problem.

As for studies, I have to assume the USGA did far more, and more complete, studies on the effects of the flag in than ANY independent tester(s) did for an hour or 2 - or even a day or 2. And they went with the rule anyway. No certainty either way. But **we** believe what **we** see, yes ? LOL

And then we have to take into account all the "bad breaks" we get and how clearly we remember them but almost NEVER remember the good breaks we get. We DESERVE the good breaks, yes ?

The ball that goes right towards the bunker, rolls along the mounding and is steered away from the bunker instead of into it ? We deserved that, right ? The ball that hit off a greenside tree on a par 5 with OB to the side of the tree, didn't see where it went, and found it on the green instead of OB ? (that happened to me a few weeks ago LOL). But the ball I pushed right on that very same hole that was 6 inches OB earlier this week ? THAT one I'll remember LMAO.

Anyway, I'm leaving it in except when it's leaning heavily towards me or when the shadow of the pin or flag is directly in my line and it's bothering me.

Now while I can certainly "see" a putt that's slightly too speedy that, without the flagstick in, MIGHT have caught the side of the back of the hole and gone in, and instead glancing off the edge of the flagstick and catching a side/lip and spinning out, I'm not convinced and I'm leaving it in,,,,,,,,,,, until (I guess) I see this scenario far more often than I determine the flagstick "helping".

In my everyday practicing I've seen putts hitting the pin on the low side spinning them OUT and putts hitting on the high side, with gravity's help, sucking them IN. Other than that, I figure good luck knowing "for sure". ¯\\_(ツ)_/¯

Shilgy · April 26, 2019

> @HatsForBats said:

> > @nsxguy said:

> > > @HatsForBats said:

> > > > @nsxguy said:

> > > > > @HitEmTrue said:

> > > > > > @HatsForBats said:

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Just us guys and gals as a group.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Word it to the USGA like I posted in my last post and see what they say. As I said I have my response from the USGA saved so I'm good to go as far as I am concerned.

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > **If the person who gets the lowest score pulled the pin on one of the holes, is he still listed at the top of the leaderboard? As 1st place, but just doesn’t receive payout?**

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > Forget it. You can't get a straight answer from this guy. He should run for office

> > > >

> > > > Edited to add -

> > > >

> > > > See ?

> > > >

> > > > "Their score is their score. There is no penalty to their score for pulling the pin." LMAO

> > > >

> > > > And NOW it's answer from his local association, apparently NOT the USGA (unless he asked both) AND he didn't tell us WHAT he asked his local association (unless it was the same question he said he asked earlier).

> > > >

> > >

> > > How is that not a straight answer? If they were not assessed any penalty strokes would they have the lowest score? Do we need to give them a participation trophy and show them, with a hand gesture, that they are number one.... as far as scoring is concerned?

> > >

> > > The 1 and only question was sent to the USGA. The one and only response to that one and only question was answered by someone whose signature seemed to indicate they were from my local Golf Association (GAP - Golf Association of Philadelphia). It is on my home computer so I don’t have direct access to the email from work. I would offer to copy and paste the response but you know…. their rules.

> >

> > Your a truly a piece of work.

> >

> > You know very well the "important" question he was asking (or DO you ?).

> >

> > Correct me if I'm wrong but you'd commented earlier something along the lines that a player could pull the flag, AGAINST the "condition of competition" of mandating leaving it IN), but he wouldn't get any $$$.

> >

> > His questions were "If the person who gets the lowest score pulled the pin on one of the holes, is he still listed at the top of the leaderboard? **As 1st place, but just doesn’t receive payout?**

> >

> > And your answer was "Their score is their score. There is no penalty to their score for pulling the pin." And you ask "How is that not a straight answer ? LMAO

> >

> > And BTW, did you send the (bogus) question to [email protected] ? Or did you sent it to your association. I'd guess the local association since none of the answers I got came from a local association. They came from the USGA. No matter though since you intentionally (IMO) didn't ask the right question to begin with - and you no doubt know it.

> >

>

> http://www.usga.org/rules-hub/rules-queries.html

>

> I thought the gambling didn't matter or are you going back on that now? They would not receive any payout for that part of the bet but could collect on other bets if they had any going. Is the hand gesture not enough of a prize?

>

> > @Shilgy said:

> > > @HatsForBats said:

> > > > @nsxguy said:

> > > > > @HitEmTrue said:

> > > > > > @HatsForBats said:

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Just us guys and gals as a group.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Word it to the USGA like I posted in my last post and see what they say. As I said I have my response from the USGA saved so I'm good to go as far as I am concerned.

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > If the person who gets the lowest score pulled the pin on one of the holes, is he still listed at the top of the leaderboard? As 1st place, but just doesn’t receive payout?

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > Forget it. You can't get a straight answer from this guy. He should run for office

> > > >

> > > > Edited to add -

> > > >

> > > > See ?

> > > >

> > > > "Their score is their score. There is no penalty to their score for pulling the pin." LMAO

> > > >

> > > > And NOW it's answer from his local association, apparently NOT the USGA (unless he asked both) AND he didn't tell us WHAT he asked his local association (unless it was the same question he said he asked earlier).

> > > >

> > >

> > > How is that not a straight answer? If they were not assessed any penalty strokes would they have the lowest score? Do we need to give them a participation trophy and show them, with a hand gesture, that they are number one.... as far as scoring is concerned?

> > >

> > > The 1 and only question was sent to the USGA. The one and only response to that one and only question was answered by someone whose signature seemed to indicate they were from my local Golf Association (GAP - Golf Association of Philadelphia). It is on my home computer so I don’t have direct access to the email from work. I would offer to copy and paste the response but you know…. their rules.

> >

> > Yes-you do not add penalty strokes to their score as you noted. BUT you do DQ them from the competition-for following the USGA mandated rules.

>

> **They are only DQ'ed from winning the bet**. Does the USGA want to get involved with betting? According to NSXGuy the gambling is irrelevant.

Oh c'mon, stop with the semantics. By making them ineligible to win the bet they are DQ'd from your event. For complying with proper rules of golf. Has nothing to do with the betting. I certainly have no issue with you having your game however you wish. But stop defending it as if you are complying with the rules.

nsxguy · April 26, 2019

> @HatsForBats said:

> > @nsxguy said:

> > > @HatsForBats said:

> > > > @nsxguy said:

> > > > > @HitEmTrue said:

> > > > > > @HatsForBats said:

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Just us guys and gals as a group.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Word it to the USGA like I posted in my last post and see what they say. As I said I have my response from the USGA saved so I'm good to go as far as I am concerned.

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > **If the person who gets the lowest score pulled the pin on one of the holes, is he still listed at the top of the leaderboard? As 1st place, but just doesn’t receive payout?**

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > Forget it. You can't get a straight answer from this guy. He should run for office

> > > >

> > > > Edited to add -

> > > >

> > > > See ?

> > > >

> > > > "Their score is their score. There is no penalty to their score for pulling the pin." LMAO

> > > >

> > > > And NOW it's answer from his local association, apparently NOT the USGA (unless he asked both) AND he didn't tell us WHAT he asked his local association (unless it was the same question he said he asked earlier).

> > > >

> > >

> > > How is that not a straight answer? If they were not assessed any penalty strokes would they have the lowest score? Do we need to give them a participation trophy and show them, with a hand gesture, that they are number one.... as far as scoring is concerned?

> > >

> > > The 1 and only question was sent to the USGA. The one and only response to that one and only question was answered by someone whose signature seemed to indicate they were from my local Golf Association (GAP - Golf Association of Philadelphia). It is on my home computer so I don’t have direct access to the email from work. I would offer to copy and paste the response but you know…. their rules.

> >

> > Your a truly a piece of work.

> >

> > You know very well the "important" question he was asking (or DO you ?).

> >

> > Correct me if I'm wrong but you'd commented earlier something along the lines that a player could pull the flag, AGAINST the "condition of competition" of mandating leaving it IN), but he wouldn't get any $$$.

> >

> > His questions were "If the person who gets the lowest score pulled the pin on one of the holes, is he still listed at the top of the leaderboard? **As 1st place, but just doesn’t receive payout?**

> >

> > And your answer was "Their score is their score. There is no penalty to their score for pulling the pin." And you ask "How is that not a straight answer ? LMAO

> >

> > And BTW, did you send the (bogus) question to [email protected] ? Or did you sent it to your association. I'd guess the local association since none of the answers I got came from a local association. They came from the USGA. No matter though since you intentionally (IMO) didn't ask the right question to begin with - and you no doubt know it.

> >

>

> http://www.usga.org/rules-hub/rules-queries.html

>

> I thought the gambling didn't matter or are you going back on that now? They would not receive any payout for that part of the bet but could collect on other bets if they had any going. Is the hand gesture not enough of a prize?

>

> > @Shilgy said:

> > > @HatsForBats said:

> > > > @nsxguy said:

> > > > > @HitEmTrue said:

> > > > > > @HatsForBats said:

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Just us guys and gals as a group.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Word it to the USGA like I posted in my last post and see what they say. As I said I have my response from the USGA saved so I'm good to go as far as I am concerned.

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > If the person who gets the lowest score pulled the pin on one of the holes, is he still listed at the top of the leaderboard? As 1st place, but just doesn’t receive payout?

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > Forget it. You can't get a straight answer from this guy. He should run for office

> > > >

> > > > Edited to add -

> > > >

> > > > See ?

> > > >

> > > > "Their score is their score. There is no penalty to their score for pulling the pin." LMAO

> > > >

> > > > And NOW it's answer from his local association, apparently NOT the USGA (unless he asked both) AND he didn't tell us WHAT he asked his local association (unless it was the same question he said he asked earlier).

> > > >

> > >

> > > How is that not a straight answer? If they were not assessed any penalty strokes would they have the lowest score? Do we need to give them a participation trophy and show them, with a hand gesture, that they are number one.... as far as scoring is concerned?

> > >

> > > The 1 and only question was sent to the USGA. The one and only response to that one and only question was answered by someone whose signature seemed to indicate they were from my local Golf Association (GAP - Golf Association of Philadelphia). It is on my home computer so I don’t have direct access to the email from work. I would offer to copy and paste the response but you know…. their rules.

> >

> > Yes-you do not add penalty strokes to their score as you noted. BUT you do DQ them from the competition-for following the USGA mandated rules.

>

> They are only DQ'ed from winning the bet. Does the USGA want to get involved with betting? According to NSXGuy the gambling is irrelevant.

I'd say you're finally getting it but my POV is that you get it just fine but don't want to admit it.

The betting IS irrelevant.

It doesn't matter whether it is your weekly 4-some for the glory of having the lowest gross/net or your club's "President's Cup", either of which where there is ZERO $ involved. The "committee" (that's your 4-some in the 1st example) can NOT agree to waive/override a rule of golf with anything but an authorized local rule if you're playing by the "Rules of Golf".

So you can NOT mandate the flag in (or out) and still be playing by the ROG.

End of story.

Can you hear me now ? (<--- that's a rhetorical question BTW)

dpb5031 · April 26, 2019

> @nsxguy said:

> > @dpb5031 said:

> > > @Augster said:

> > > > @farmer said:

> > > > > @dpb5031 said:

> > > > > > @farmer said:

> > > > > > > @dpb5031 said:

> > > > > > > Another study concluding that more putts will be holed with the flag stick OUT:

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > https://www.golfdigest.com/story/the-science-behind-why-the-flagstick-should-be-pulled-999-percent-of-the-time?utm_brand=gd&utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook&mbid=social_facebook&utm_social-type=owned&fbclid=IwAR3uLxv2A0-b18qcAuofJMa4euL5ktuEyI1n6kRRufQmd9kJSIdLJ30

> > > > > > So, they determined that a putt going 9+ feet past the hole is not likely to be helped by the flagstick? That is, indeed, amazing information.

> > > > >

> > > > > I don't think you read it right. The way I read it, only putts that are traveling at a speed that would result in them rolling 9' (or more) past the hole are more likely to be helped by leaving the flag stick in.

> > > > >

> > > > > Anything rolling at a speed less than 8' past the hole has a higher probability of going in with the flag stick OUT. According to the study, the flagstick is generally only a benefit if you hit it dead center, which is not a high percentage play, even for Tour pros.

> > > >

> > > > I misread it, but it is an absurd piece of data. A putt "only" going 8' by the hole is not going in, unless it hits the exact center of the back of the hole and gets a good bounce. A real study needs some data from putts that are going to end up in the 3' Magic Circle.

> > >

> > > This is the most credible study to date IMO. It pretty much backs up what I’ve deduced while playing this year.

> > >

> > > In a nutshell, if you think you’ll have speed issues, that is, LONG putts, where you may roll the ball well past the hole, leave the stick in. If it’s center cut, the pin will hole it.

> > >

> > > If you won’t have speed issues, I.e., not going to ram it more than 5 feet past the hole, take it out. The off-center strikes on the flag on good speed putts are more likely to miss than if you left the flag out.

> > >

> > > Personally, I think it’s much ado about nothing, because it happens so infrequently. BUT, I have seen the off-center hit stay out of the hole, especially low side, when the ball likely would have gone in without the flag on there. I’ve seen it a few times this year already.

> > >

> > > That study just backed up what I’ve seen so far this year on the course. For the pros to “always leave it in” on shorter putts is asinine. Every time I see it I say, “YOU DON’T have speed issues!” Pin in/pin out will make ZERO difference on putts that are only going to go 18 inches past the cup. The ball will already be holed at that speed before it ever hits the pin. On-Center or off.

> > >

> >

> > Agree 100%. I've got nearly 60 rounds in under the new rule and although I prefer the stick out, I play with some who prefer it left in for all putts. I've seen enough breaking putts (both high side & low side) enter the hole off-center and get deflected by the flagstick when everyone in the group agreed it would have dropped had the stick been out. This study supports what I've been seeing on the course with a fairly large sample size given my number of rounds played under the new rule.

>

> "Everyone agreed",,,,,,, but they can't know for sure. And that is the problem.

>

> As for studies, I have to assume the USGA did far more, and more complete, studies on the effects of the flag in than ANY independent tester(s) did for an hour or 2 - or even a day or 2. And they went with the rule anyway. No certainty either way. But **we** believe what **we** see, yes ? LOL

>

> And then we have to take into account all the "bad breaks" we get and how clearly we remember them but almost NEVER remember the good breaks we get. We DESERVE the good breaks, yes ?

>

> The ball that goes right towards the bunker, rolls along the mounding and is steered away from the bunker instead of into it ? We deserved that, right ? The ball that hit off a greenside tree on a par 5 with OB to the side of the tree, didn't see where it went, and found it on the green instead of OB ? (that happened to me a few weeks ago LOL). But the ball I pushed right on that very same hole that was 6 inches OB earlier this week ? THAT one I'll remember LMAO.

>

> Anyway, I'm leaving it in except when it's leaning heavily towards me or when the shadow of the pin or flag is directly in my line and it's bothering me.

>

> Now while I can certainly "see" a putt that's slightly too speedy that, without the flagstick in, MIGHT have caught the side of the back of the hole and gone in, and instead glancing off the edge of the flagstick and catching a side/lip and spinning out, I'm not convinced and I'm leaving it in,,,,,,,,,,, until (I guess) I see this scenario far more often than I determine the flagstick "helping".

>

> In my everyday practicing I've seen putts hitting the pin on the low side spinning them OUT and putts hitting on the high side, with gravity's help, sucking them IN. Other than that, I figure good luck knowing "for sure". ¯\\_(ツ)_/¯

>

You are correct, anecdotal accounts cannot be relied upon for determining "for sures" and "what ifs?"

The most recent Golf Digest piece articulating both the methodology and the outcomes of testing conducted by Tom Mase, professor of mechanical engineering and former department chair at Cal Polytech is the best and most comprehensive study I've seen to date. The methodology appears to be sound, and the results speak for themselves. I posted this earlier in the thread but here it is again for those who may have missed it:

https://www.golfdigest.com/story/the-science-behind-why-the-flagstick-should-be-pulled-999-percent-of-the-time

Beyond the argument (addressed in the article above) as to which (in v. out) is more beneficial toward holing putts, my real-life practical experience that now in includes more than 60 rounds played under the new rule is that in practice, it really does nothing to improve pace of play by any substantive amount, and can actually slow things down and be mildly annoying when you've got a foursome of players all doing something different with the flagstick.

Newby · April 26, 2019

The Rules say both "**the Player May Leave Flagstick in Hole**" and "**the Player May Have Flagstick Removed from Hole"**.

The Rules also say **a Committee must not use a Local Rule to waive or modify the Rules of Golf** simply because it might prefer a Rule to be different.

Therefore a Committee cannot deny any player the right to leave the flagstick in or take it out.

nsxguy · April 26, 2019

> @Newby said:

> The Rules say both "**the Player May Leave Flagstick in Hole**" and "**the Player May Have Flagstick Removed from Hole"**.

> The Rules also say **a Committee must not use a Local Rule to waive or modify the Rules of Golf** simply because it might prefer a Rule to be different.

> Therefore a Committee cannot deny any player the right to leave the flagstick in or take it out.

He knows.

nsxguy · April 26, 2019

> @dpb5031 said:

> > @nsxguy said:

> > > @dpb5031 said:

> > > > @Augster said:

> > > > > @farmer said:

> > > > > > @dpb5031 said:

> > > > > > > @farmer said:

> > > > > > > > @dpb5031 said:

> > > > > > > > Another study concluding that more putts will be holed with the flag stick OUT:

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > https://www.golfdigest.com/story/the-science-behind-why-the-flagstick-should-be-pulled-999-percent-of-the-time?utm_brand=gd&utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook&mbid=social_facebook&utm_social-type=owned&fbclid=IwAR3uLxv2A0-b18qcAuofJMa4euL5ktuEyI1n6kRRufQmd9kJSIdLJ30

> > > > > > > So, they determined that a putt going 9+ feet past the hole is not likely to be helped by the flagstick? That is, indeed, amazing information.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I don't think you read it right. The way I read it, only putts that are traveling at a speed that would result in them rolling 9' (or more) past the hole are more likely to be helped by leaving the flag stick in.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Anything rolling at a speed less than 8' past the hole has a higher probability of going in with the flag stick OUT. According to the study, the flagstick is generally only a benefit if you hit it dead center, which is not a high percentage play, even for Tour pros.

> > > > >

> > > > > I misread it, but it is an absurd piece of data. A putt "only" going 8' by the hole is not going in, unless it hits the exact center of the back of the hole and gets a good bounce. A real study needs some data from putts that are going to end up in the 3' Magic Circle.

> > > >

> > > > This is the most credible study to date IMO. It pretty much backs up what I’ve deduced while playing this year.

> > > >

> > > > In a nutshell, if you think you’ll have speed issues, that is, LONG putts, where you may roll the ball well past the hole, leave the stick in. If it’s center cut, the pin will hole it.

> > > >

> > > > If you won’t have speed issues, I.e., not going to ram it more than 5 feet past the hole, take it out. The off-center strikes on the flag on good speed putts are more likely to miss than if you left the flag out.

> > > >

> > > > Personally, I think it’s much ado about nothing, because it happens so infrequently. BUT, I have seen the off-center hit stay out of the hole, especially low side, when the ball likely would have gone in without the flag on there. I’ve seen it a few times this year already.

> > > >

> > > > That study just backed up what I’ve seen so far this year on the course. For the pros to “always leave it in” on shorter putts is asinine. Every time I see it I say, “YOU DON’T have speed issues!” Pin in/pin out will make ZERO difference on putts that are only going to go 18 inches past the cup. The ball will already be holed at that speed before it ever hits the pin. On-Center or off.

> > > >

> > >

> > > Agree 100%. I've got nearly 60 rounds in under the new rule and although I prefer the stick out, I play with some who prefer it left in for all putts. I've seen enough breaking putts (both high side & low side) enter the hole off-center and get deflected by the flagstick when everyone in the group agreed it would have dropped had the stick been out. This study supports what I've been seeing on the course with a fairly large sample size given my number of rounds played under the new rule.

> >

> > "Everyone agreed",,,,,,, but they can't know for sure. And that is the problem.

> >

> > As for studies, I have to assume the USGA did far more, and more complete, studies on the effects of the flag in than ANY independent tester(s) did for an hour or 2 - or even a day or 2. And they went with the rule anyway. No certainty either way. But **we** believe what **we** see, yes ? LOL

> >

> > And then we have to take into account all the "bad breaks" we get and how clearly we remember them but almost NEVER remember the good breaks we get. We DESERVE the good breaks, yes ?

> >

> > The ball that goes right towards the bunker, rolls along the mounding and is steered away from the bunker instead of into it ? We deserved that, right ? The ball that hit off a greenside tree on a par 5 with OB to the side of the tree, didn't see where it went, and found it on the green instead of OB ? (that happened to me a few weeks ago LOL). But the ball I pushed right on that very same hole that was 6 inches OB earlier this week ? THAT one I'll remember LMAO.

> >

> > Anyway, I'm leaving it in except when it's leaning heavily towards me or when the shadow of the pin or flag is directly in my line and it's bothering me.

> >

> > Now while I can certainly "see" a putt that's slightly too speedy that, without the flagstick in, MIGHT have caught the side of the back of the hole and gone in, and instead glancing off the edge of the flagstick and catching a side/lip and spinning out, I'm not convinced and I'm leaving it in,,,,,,,,,,, until (I guess) I see this scenario far more often than I determine the flagstick "helping".

> >

> > In my everyday practicing I've seen putts hitting the pin on the low side spinning them OUT and putts hitting on the high side, with gravity's help, sucking them IN. Other than that, I figure good luck knowing "for sure". ¯\\_(ツ)_/¯

> >

> You are correct, anecdotal accounts cannot be relied upon for determining "for sures" and "what ifs?"

>

> The most recent Golf Digest piece articulating both the methodology and the outcomes of testing conducted by Tom Mase, professor of mechanical engineering and former department chair at Cal Polytech is the best and most comprehensive study I've seen to date. The methodology appears to be sound, and the results speak for themselves. I posted this earlier in the thread but here it is again for those who may have missed it:

> https://www.golfdigest.com/story/the-science-behind-why-the-flagstick-should-be-pulled-999-percent-of-the-time

>

> Beyond the argument (addressed in the article above) as to which (in v. out) is more beneficial toward holing putts, my real-life practical experience that now in includes more than 60 rounds played under the new rule is that in practice, it really does nothing to improve pace of play by any substantive amount, and can actually slow things down and be mildly annoying when you've got a foursome of players all doing something different with the flagstick.

>

I confess I didn't read that whole article. Once I start getting confused with the methodology or don't completely understand the hows and whys I kinda sorta tune out.

However, I'll stick with my opinion of what the ruling bodies came up with and whatever research they did to come up with the rule.

I've only played (roughly) half the rounds you have and here in the Winter, when the courses are more crowded (as you well know LOL), my purely anecdotal opinion/best guess is that pace of play has improved slightly. And as every round is different I wouldn't expect any "substantive" improvement in POP with the flagstick rule in and of itself.

And wouldn't expect one anyway. Any and all POP considerations within the new rules, are incremental in nature anyway. But slowing things down (overall of course, not just one incident of a guy wanting it out) ? Don't see it.

Most of the (older) guys I play with have no problem with leaving it in but some of them want it out for shorter/makeables. "Mildly annoying" ? Well, maybe but really no big deal.

HatsForBats · April 26, 2019

> @nsxguy said:

> > @HatsForBats said:

> > > @nsxguy said:

> > > > @HatsForBats said:

> > > > > @nsxguy said:

> > > > > > @HitEmTrue said:

> > > > > > > @HatsForBats said:

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Just us guys and gals as a group.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Word it to the USGA like I posted in my last post and see what they say. As I said I have my response from the USGA saved so I'm good to go as far as I am concerned.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > **If the person who gets the lowest score pulled the pin on one of the holes, is he still listed at the top of the leaderboard? As 1st place, but just doesn’t receive payout?**

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > Forget it. You can't get a straight answer from this guy. He should run for office

> > > > >

> > > > > Edited to add -

> > > > >

> > > > > See ?

> > > > >

> > > > > "Their score is their score. There is no penalty to their score for pulling the pin." LMAO

> > > > >

> > > > > And NOW it's answer from his local association, apparently NOT the USGA (unless he asked both) AND he didn't tell us WHAT he asked his local association (unless it was the same question he said he asked earlier).

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > How is that not a straight answer? If they were not assessed any penalty strokes would they have the lowest score? Do we need to give them a participation trophy and show them, with a hand gesture, that they are number one.... as far as scoring is concerned?

> > > >

> > > > The 1 and only question was sent to the USGA. The one and only response to that one and only question was answered by someone whose signature seemed to indicate they were from my local Golf Association (GAP - Golf Association of Philadelphia). It is on my home computer so I don’t have direct access to the email from work. I would offer to copy and paste the response but you know…. their rules.

> > >

> > > Your a truly a piece of work.

> > >

> > > You know very well the "important" question he was asking (or DO you ?).

> > >

> > > Correct me if I'm wrong but you'd commented earlier something along the lines that a player could pull the flag, AGAINST the "condition of competition" of mandating leaving it IN), but he wouldn't get any $$$.

> > >

> > > His questions were "If the person who gets the lowest score pulled the pin on one of the holes, is he still listed at the top of the leaderboard? **As 1st place, but just doesn’t receive payout?**

> > >

> > > And your answer was "Their score is their score. There is no penalty to their score for pulling the pin." And you ask "How is that not a straight answer ? LMAO

> > >

> > > And BTW, did you send the (bogus) question to [email protected] ? Or did you sent it to your association. I'd guess the local association since none of the answers I got came from a local association. They came from the USGA. No matter though since you intentionally (IMO) didn't ask the right question to begin with - and you no doubt know it.

> > >

> >

> > http://www.usga.org/rules-hub/rules-queries.html

> >

> > I thought the gambling didn't matter or are you going back on that now? They would not receive any payout for that part of the bet but could collect on other bets if they had any going. Is the hand gesture not enough of a prize?

> >

> > > @Shilgy said:

> > > > @HatsForBats said:

> > > > > @nsxguy said:

> > > > > > @HitEmTrue said:

> > > > > > > @HatsForBats said:

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Just us guys and gals as a group.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Word it to the USGA like I posted in my last post and see what they say. As I said I have my response from the USGA saved so I'm good to go as far as I am concerned.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > If the person who gets the lowest score pulled the pin on one of the holes, is he still listed at the top of the leaderboard? As 1st place, but just doesn’t receive payout?

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > Forget it. You can't get a straight answer from this guy. He should run for office

> > > > >

> > > > > Edited to add -

> > > > >

> > > > > See ?

> > > > >

> > > > > "Their score is their score. There is no penalty to their score for pulling the pin." LMAO

> > > > >

> > > > > And NOW it's answer from his local association, apparently NOT the USGA (unless he asked both) AND he didn't tell us WHAT he asked his local association (unless it was the same question he said he asked earlier).

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > How is that not a straight answer? If they were not assessed any penalty strokes would they have the lowest score? Do we need to give them a participation trophy and show them, with a hand gesture, that they are number one.... as far as scoring is concerned?

> > > >

> > > > The 1 and only question was sent to the USGA. The one and only response to that one and only question was answered by someone whose signature seemed to indicate they were from my local Golf Association (GAP - Golf Association of Philadelphia). It is on my home computer so I don’t have direct access to the email from work. I would offer to copy and paste the response but you know…. their rules.

> > >

> > > Yes-you do not add penalty strokes to their score as you noted. BUT you do DQ them from the competition-for following the USGA mandated rules.

> >

> > They are only DQ'ed from winning the bet. Does the USGA want to get involved with betting? According to NSXGuy the gambling is irrelevant.

>

> The "committee" (that's your 4-some in the 1st example) can NOT agree to waive/override a rule of golf with anything but an authorized local rule if you're playing by the "Rules of Golf".

When specifically asked if my foursome could agree to play with the flag in for all 18 holes and specifically if that was ignoring the rule 13.2 the response to my email sent to the USGA was that it is not against the rules to agree to that and it is not ignoring rule 13.2.

Ask them for yourself...

Can my foursome agree before a round to play with the flagstick in for all 18 holes? Is that against the rules and specifically is it ignoring rule 13.2 to do so?

If I speak at one constant volume, At one constant pitch, At one constant rhythm right into your ear, you still won't hear

dpb5031 · April 26, 2019

> @nsxguy said:

> > @dpb5031 said:

> > > @nsxguy said:

> > > > @dpb5031 said:

> > > > > @Augster said:

> > > > > > @farmer said:

> > > > > > > @dpb5031 said:

> > > > > > > > @farmer said:

> > > > > > > > > @dpb5031 said:

> > > > > > > > > Another study concluding that more putts will be holed with the flag stick OUT:

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > https://www.golfdigest.com/story/the-science-behind-why-the-flagstick-should-be-pulled-999-percent-of-the-time?utm_brand=gd&utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook&mbid=social_facebook&utm_social-type=owned&fbclid=IwAR3uLxv2A0-b18qcAuofJMa4euL5ktuEyI1n6kRRufQmd9kJSIdLJ30

> > > > > > > > So, they determined that a putt going 9+ feet past the hole is not likely to be helped by the flagstick? That is, indeed, amazing information.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > I don't think you read it right. The way I read it, only putts that are traveling at a speed that would result in them rolling 9' (or more) past the hole are more likely to be helped by leaving the flag stick in.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Anything rolling at a speed less than 8' past the hole has a higher probability of going in with the flag stick OUT. According to the study, the flagstick is generally only a benefit if you hit it dead center, which is not a high percentage play, even for Tour pros.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I misread it, but it is an absurd piece of data. A putt "only" going 8' by the hole is not going in, unless it hits the exact center of the back of the hole and gets a good bounce. A real study needs some data from putts that are going to end up in the 3' Magic Circle.

> > > > >

> > > > > This is the most credible study to date IMO. It pretty much backs up what I’ve deduced while playing this year.

> > > > >

> > > > > In a nutshell, if you think you’ll have speed issues, that is, LONG putts, where you may roll the ball well past the hole, leave the stick in. If it’s center cut, the pin will hole it.

> > > > >

> > > > > If you won’t have speed issues, I.e., not going to ram it more than 5 feet past the hole, take it out. The off-center strikes on the flag on good speed putts are more likely to miss than if you left the flag out.

> > > > >

> > > > > Personally, I think it’s much ado about nothing, because it happens so infrequently. BUT, I have seen the off-center hit stay out of the hole, especially low side, when the ball likely would have gone in without the flag on there. I’ve seen it a few times this year already.

> > > > >

> > > > > That study just backed up what I’ve seen so far this year on the course. For the pros to “always leave it in” on shorter putts is asinine. Every time I see it I say, “YOU DON’T have speed issues!” Pin in/pin out will make ZERO difference on putts that are only going to go 18 inches past the cup. The ball will already be holed at that speed before it ever hits the pin. On-Center or off.

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > Agree 100%. I've got nearly 60 rounds in under the new rule and although I prefer the stick out, I play with some who prefer it left in for all putts. I've seen enough breaking putts (both high side & low side) enter the hole off-center and get deflected by the flagstick when everyone in the group agreed it would have dropped had the stick been out. This study supports what I've been seeing on the course with a fairly large sample size given my number of rounds played under the new rule.

> > >

> > > "Everyone agreed",,,,,,, but they can't know for sure. And that is the problem.

> > >

> > > As for studies, I have to assume the USGA did far more, and more complete, studies on the effects of the flag in than ANY independent tester(s) did for an hour or 2 - or even a day or 2. And they went with the rule anyway. No certainty either way. But **we** believe what **we** see, yes ? LOL

> > >

> > > And then we have to take into account all the "bad breaks" we get and how clearly we remember them but almost NEVER remember the good breaks we get. We DESERVE the good breaks, yes ?

> > >

> > > The ball that goes right towards the bunker, rolls along the mounding and is steered away from the bunker instead of into it ? We deserved that, right ? The ball that hit off a greenside tree on a par 5 with OB to the side of the tree, didn't see where it went, and found it on the green instead of OB ? (that happened to me a few weeks ago LOL). But the ball I pushed right on that very same hole that was 6 inches OB earlier this week ? THAT one I'll remember LMAO.

> > >

> > > Anyway, I'm leaving it in except when it's leaning heavily towards me or when the shadow of the pin or flag is directly in my line and it's bothering me.

> > >

> > > Now while I can certainly "see" a putt that's slightly too speedy that, without the flagstick in, MIGHT have caught the side of the back of the hole and gone in, and instead glancing off the edge of the flagstick and catching a side/lip and spinning out, I'm not convinced and I'm leaving it in,,,,,,,,,,, until (I guess) I see this scenario far more often than I determine the flagstick "helping".

> > >

> > > In my everyday practicing I've seen putts hitting the pin on the low side spinning them OUT and putts hitting on the high side, with gravity's help, sucking them IN. Other than that, I figure good luck knowing "for sure". ¯\\_(ツ)_/¯

> > >

> > You are correct, anecdotal accounts cannot be relied upon for determining "for sures" and "what ifs?"

> >

> > The most recent Golf Digest piece articulating both the methodology and the outcomes of testing conducted by Tom Mase, professor of mechanical engineering and former department chair at Cal Polytech is the best and most comprehensive study I've seen to date. The methodology appears to be sound, and the results speak for themselves. I posted this earlier in the thread but here it is again for those who may have missed it:

> > https://www.golfdigest.com/story/the-science-behind-why-the-flagstick-should-be-pulled-999-percent-of-the-time

> >

> > Beyond the argument (addressed in the article above) as to which (in v. out) is more beneficial toward holing putts, my real-life practical experience that now in includes more than 60 rounds played under the new rule is that in practice, it really does nothing to improve pace of play by any substantive amount, and can actually slow things down and be mildly annoying when you've got a foursome of players all doing something different with the flagstick.

> >

>

> I confess I didn't read that whole article. Once I start getting confused with the methodology or don't completely understand the hows and whys I kinda sorta tune out.

>

> However, I'll stick with my opinion of what the ruling bodies came up with and whatever research they did to come up with the rule.

>

> I've only played (roughly) half the rounds you have and here in the Winter, when the courses are more crowded (as you well know LOL), my purely anecdotal opinion/best guess is that pace of play has improved slightly. And as every round is different I wouldn't expect any "substantive" improvement in POP with the flagstick rule in and of itself.

>

> And wouldn't expect one anyway. Any and all POP considerations within the new rules, are incremental in nature anyway. But slowing things down (overall of course, not just one incident of a guy wanting it out) ? Don't see it.

>

> Most of the (older) guys I play with have no problem with leaving it in but some of them want it out for shorter/makeables. "Mildly annoying" ? Well, maybe but really no big deal.

Well, you really should read the article and try to digest the methodology; it really isn't at all confusing. I can assure you that I'm not that smart and I had no trouble following along and understanding the outcomes! :D

As far as relying on the USGA to have done their homework, I'd love to see them publish whatever (if any) data or science they have regarding the rule change. In my view, I doubt they would have changed the rule to allow the flag stick to remain in if they believed it to be an advantage, as so many have claimed. It would be the functional equivalent of making the hole larger; could you imagine them ever doing that?

I think it's more likely that they determined the flag stick to NOT be an advantage, so therefore went ahead with it. Their logic being, why should someone get penalized for striking the flag stick once on the green if it truly provides no functional advantage? The USGA tends toward preserving the sanctity of the game. They simply eliminated what was previously a silly penalty.

BlackDiamondPar5 · April 26, 2019

Played it for the first time and love it. My group we left it in the whole round, a time saver, less dicking around, putt and move on.

Also unfortunately had to take a drop at one point and already like the new drop height.

Sawgrass · April 26, 2019

> @HatsForBats said:

> > @nsxguy said:

> > > @HatsForBats said:

> > > > @nsxguy said:

> > > > > @HatsForBats said:

> > > > > > @nsxguy said:

> > > > > > > @HitEmTrue said:

> > > > > > > > @HatsForBats said:

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Just us guys and gals as a group.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Word it to the USGA like I posted in my last post and see what they say. As I said I have my response from the USGA saved so I'm good to go as far as I am concerned.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > **If the person who gets the lowest score pulled the pin on one of the holes, is he still listed at the top of the leaderboard? As 1st place, but just doesn’t receive payout?**

> > > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Forget it. You can't get a straight answer from this guy. He should run for office

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Edited to add -

> > > > > >

> > > > > > See ?

> > > > > >

> > > > > > "Their score is their score. There is no penalty to their score for pulling the pin." LMAO

> > > > > >

> > > > > > And NOW it's answer from his local association, apparently NOT the USGA (unless he asked both) AND he didn't tell us WHAT he asked his local association (unless it was the same question he said he asked earlier).

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > How is that not a straight answer? If they were not assessed any penalty strokes would they have the lowest score? Do we need to give them a participation trophy and show them, with a hand gesture, that they are number one.... as far as scoring is concerned?

> > > > >

> > > > > The 1 and only question was sent to the USGA. The one and only response to that one and only question was answered by someone whose signature seemed to indicate they were from my local Golf Association (GAP - Golf Association of Philadelphia). It is on my home computer so I don’t have direct access to the email from work. I would offer to copy and paste the response but you know…. their rules.

> > > >

> > > > Your a truly a piece of work.

> > > >

> > > > You know very well the "important" question he was asking (or DO you ?).

> > > >

> > > > Correct me if I'm wrong but you'd commented earlier something along the lines that a player could pull the flag, AGAINST the "condition of competition" of mandating leaving it IN), but he wouldn't get any $$$.

> > > >

> > > > His questions were "If the person who gets the lowest score pulled the pin on one of the holes, is he still listed at the top of the leaderboard? **As 1st place, but just doesn’t receive payout?**

> > > >

> > > > And your answer was "Their score is their score. There is no penalty to their score for pulling the pin." And you ask "How is that not a straight answer ? LMAO

> > > >

> > > > And BTW, did you send the (bogus) question to [email protected] ? Or did you sent it to your association. I'd guess the local association since none of the answers I got came from a local association. They came from the USGA. No matter though since you intentionally (IMO) didn't ask the right question to begin with - and you no doubt know it.

> > > >

> > >

> > > http://www.usga.org/rules-hub/rules-queries.html

> > >

> > > I thought the gambling didn't matter or are you going back on that now? They would not receive any payout for that part of the bet but could collect on other bets if they had any going. Is the hand gesture not enough of a prize?

> > >

> > > > @Shilgy said:

> > > > > @HatsForBats said:

> > > > > > @nsxguy said:

> > > > > > > @HitEmTrue said:

> > > > > > > > @HatsForBats said:

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Just us guys and gals as a group.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Word it to the USGA like I posted in my last post and see what they say. As I said I have my response from the USGA saved so I'm good to go as far as I am concerned.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > If the person who gets the lowest score pulled the pin on one of the holes, is he still listed at the top of the leaderboard? As 1st place, but just doesn’t receive payout?

> > > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Forget it. You can't get a straight answer from this guy. He should run for office

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Edited to add -

> > > > > >

> > > > > > See ?

> > > > > >

> > > > > > "Their score is their score. There is no penalty to their score for pulling the pin." LMAO

> > > > > >

> > > > > > And NOW it's answer from his local association, apparently NOT the USGA (unless he asked both) AND he didn't tell us WHAT he asked his local association (unless it was the same question he said he asked earlier).

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > How is that not a straight answer? If they were not assessed any penalty strokes would they have the lowest score? Do we need to give them a participation trophy and show them, with a hand gesture, that they are number one.... as far as scoring is concerned?

> > > > >

> > > > > The 1 and only question was sent to the USGA. The one and only response to that one and only question was answered by someone whose signature seemed to indicate they were from my local Golf Association (GAP - Golf Association of Philadelphia). It is on my home computer so I don’t have direct access to the email from work. I would offer to copy and paste the response but you know…. their rules.

> > > >

> > > > Yes-you do not add penalty strokes to their score as you noted. BUT you do DQ them from the competition-for following the USGA mandated rules.

> > >

> > > They are only DQ'ed from winning the bet. Does the USGA want to get involved with betting? According to NSXGuy the gambling is irrelevant.

> >

> > The "committee" (that's your 4-some in the 1st example) can NOT agree to waive/override a rule of golf with anything but an authorized local rule if you're playing by the "Rules of Golf".

>

> When specifically asked if my foursome could agree to play with the flag in for all 18 holes and specifically if that was ignoring the rule 13.2 the response to my email sent to the USGA was that it is not against the rules to agree to that and it is not ignoring rule 13.2.

>

> Ask them for yourself...

> Can my foursome agree before a round to play with the flagstick in for all 18 holes? Is that against the rules and specifically is it ignoring rule 13.2 to do so?

>

> If I speak at one constant volume, At one constant pitch, At one constant rhythm right into your ear, you still won't hear

>

I value the USGA's response noted in post #295: the actual question offered is more to the point. Let's focus on that.

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I hate the "Leaving the flag in" rule

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