I hate the "Leaving the flag in" rule

[nsxguy]

> @jholz said:

> > @nsxguy said:

> > > @jholz said:

> > > So far, I have seen little difference in the pace or quality of play under the new rules. No arguments on the green. No trouble when someone wants it out and another wants it in. We just deal with it.

> > >

> > > But then again, most of the weekend hacks I get paired with couldn't care less about completing their rounds under the ROG. So, I don't see it really changing much in terms of how my average round is played or how long it takes.

> > >

> > > Ultimately, I think the new flagstick rule is just bad legislation - mainly because they are trying to tackle a problem (slow play) that has already proven to be rules resistant.

> > >

> > > Every course I play has a rule concerning pace. None of them enforce it. Every major professional tour has a rule against slow play, yet the penalties have little teeth and are also rarely enforced. The USGA and R&A may claim to be concerned about pace of play, but their actions tell a different tale. Same thing with accessibility.

> > >

> > > Slow play is a cultural problem, and as such, cannot be legislated away.

> > >

> > >

> >

> > Yeah, where i am pretty much everybody has gotten into the flow of the choice of flagstick. Then again, we've be at it for 4 months now. Takes a little getting used to.

> >

> > And yes, slow play is a cultural sort of problem and those generally take a long time to work, if they ever do.

> >

> > As for it speeding up play though it's not expected to do it all by itself. Looking for lost ball from 5 minutes to 3 and the new drop rules are meant to help as well. A little bit here and a little bit there tends to add up.

> >

> > As for PoP, I wouldn't say every course doesn't enforce it. LOL

> >

> > Long story short, a couple of weeks ago my group lost sight of the group ahead on the 5th hole and the group behind us called the Pro Shop. I'd seen them back there and urged our group to pick it up just a little (and we did). Bu they caught us again on 8 just as the ranger came out to us as we were leaving the 8th green and warned us to pick up the pace.

> >

> > I happened heading towards the 9th tee already and wasn't with the rest of my group when we were warned and as the ranger played with us (somewhat larger group) quite a bit, I just thought he was asking them how we were doing and so I didn't ask.

> >

> > Turns out he warned us to catch up to the group in front.

> >

> > Finished 9 in 1:40

> >

> > Warned again on 14th tee.

> >

> > Finished 18 in 3:20 (not counting the 10 minutes waiting for the group behind to finish the 9th so we could let 'em through - though they decided not to)

> >

> > Sheesh. ¯\\_(ツ)_/¯

> >

>

> Whether it's the new shorter time for searching for balls, or the new flagstick rules, I still don't see either of these having an immediate impact on pace of play. Given time, and continued effort through a variety of means, things might gradually begin to improve. But that's also, ultimately, a process of cultural change.

>

> Additionally, it is always dangerous to argue in absolutes, as you point out. There is always an exception, and everyone can come up with an anecdote that runs counter to a general trend. That's why anecdotes don't count for much in statistical analysis or scientific inquiry.

>

> So yes, you are right. There are some courses and clubs out there that can get away with strict enforcement of pace of play. Yet, as you point out, even that enforcement has problems. Your group finished early, yet was still being hassled to speed up play. That doesn't sound like good practice to me.

>

> indeed, it is the kind of practice that leads people to believe that the rules are arbitrary, and are enforced as such. This is why people get so bent out of shape when they are challenged for playing slow.

>

 

As for the PoP issues/Rules, yes, it is a "cultural" thing and as such it'll take time to sink in with most. That said, few of the items will impact noticeably in and of themselves, but taken together they should help. That said, someone estimated about 30 seconds per hole with the new flagstick rule. That sounds about right to me after a couple of dozen rounds this year but, as always, a group can (usually) only play as fast as those in front of them.

 

To add slightly to my encounter 2 weeks ago, when we got the 2nd warning (14th tee) we were considerably ahead of the group behind so while there still was a large gap in front of us we hadn't been being pushed at all on the back 9. The Pro, when I related the story to him last Friday, acknowledged there was no other phone call/issue other than the one on the front.

 

Also, as Matt related to us (thanks BTW Matt - once Mr Bean read your novel I had to as well LOL) the ranger had ZERO idea of what time we teed off and apparently didn't know we offered to let the group behind play through (coincidentally) right after he warned us the first time.

 

Down here in SoFla the rangers are almost always a retiree who just wants to have a relaxed job when he can make a few bucks. That said, this ranger, while not a very good player, was a very experienced player and really should have known better.

 

The Pro, as he should have, backed up his ranger about the first warning but when I told him we played in 3:20 and weren't holding anybody up on the back when the ranger confronted us, while he didn't "admit" the ranger shouldn't have said anything, he had this sort of sheepish smile going forward as he had no problem with the gap in front so long as we weren't holding anybody up.

 

Totally coincidentally I didn't play there last Saturday as my other group had access to play a course we didn't get to play very often so I played with them last Saturday. And tomorrow is supposed to be rather rainy so I may not play with them again tomorrow. Point is I may not encounter that ranger for at least another week.

[jholz]

> @nsxguy said:

> > @jholz said:

> > > @nsxguy said:

> > > > @jholz said:

> > > > So far, I have seen little difference in the pace or quality of play under the new rules. No arguments on the green. No trouble when someone wants it out and another wants it in. We just deal with it.

> > > >

> > > > But then again, most of the weekend hacks I get paired with couldn't care less about completing their rounds under the ROG. So, I don't see it really changing much in terms of how my average round is played or how long it takes.

> > > >

> > > > Ultimately, I think the new flagstick rule is just bad legislation - mainly because they are trying to tackle a problem (slow play) that has already proven to be rules resistant.

> > > >

> > > > Every course I play has a rule concerning pace. None of them enforce it. Every major professional tour has a rule against slow play, yet the penalties have little teeth and are also rarely enforced. The USGA and R&A may claim to be concerned about pace of play, but their actions tell a different tale. Same thing with accessibility.

> > > >

> > > > Slow play is a cultural problem, and as such, cannot be legislated away.

> > > >

> > > >

> > >

> > > Yeah, where i am pretty much everybody has gotten into the flow of the choice of flagstick. Then again, we've be at it for 4 months now. Takes a little getting used to.

> > >

> > > And yes, slow play is a cultural sort of problem and those generally take a long time to work, if they ever do.

> > >

> > > As for it speeding up play though it's not expected to do it all by itself. Looking for lost ball from 5 minutes to 3 and the new drop rules are meant to help as well. A little bit here and a little bit there tends to add up.

> > >

> > > As for PoP, I wouldn't say every course doesn't enforce it. LOL

> > >

> > > Long story short, a couple of weeks ago my group lost sight of the group ahead on the 5th hole and the group behind us called the Pro Shop. I'd seen them back there and urged our group to pick it up just a little (and we did). Bu they caught us again on 8 just as the ranger came out to us as we were leaving the 8th green and warned us to pick up the pace.

> > >

> > > I happened heading towards the 9th tee already and wasn't with the rest of my group when we were warned and as the ranger played with us (somewhat larger group) quite a bit, I just thought he was asking them how we were doing and so I didn't ask.

> > >

> > > Turns out he warned us to catch up to the group in front.

> > >

> > > Finished 9 in 1:40

> > >

> > > Warned again on 14th tee.

> > >

> > > Finished 18 in 3:20 (not counting the 10 minutes waiting for the group behind to finish the 9th so we could let 'em through - though they decided not to)

> > >

> > > Sheesh. ¯\\_(ツ)_/¯

> > >

> >

> > Whether it's the new shorter time for searching for balls, or the new flagstick rules, I still don't see either of these having an immediate impact on pace of play. Given time, and continued effort through a variety of means, things might gradually begin to improve. But that's also, ultimately, a process of cultural change.

> >

> > Additionally, it is always dangerous to argue in absolutes, as you point out. There is always an exception, and everyone can come up with an anecdote that runs counter to a general trend. That's why anecdotes don't count for much in statistical analysis or scientific inquiry.

> >

> > So yes, you are right. There are some courses and clubs out there that can get away with strict enforcement of pace of play. Yet, as you point out, even that enforcement has problems. Your group finished early, yet was still being hassled to speed up play. That doesn't sound like good practice to me.

> >

> > indeed, it is the kind of practice that leads people to believe that the rules are arbitrary, and are enforced as such. This is why people get so bent out of shape when they are challenged for playing slow.

> >

>

> As for the PoP issues/Rules, yes, it is a "cultural" thing and as such it'll take time to sink in with most. That said, few of the items will impact noticeably in and of themselves, but taken together they should help. That said, someone estimated about 30 seconds per hole with the new flagstick rule. That sounds about right to me after a couple of dozen rounds this year but, as always, a group can (usually) only play as fast as those in front of them.

>

> To add slightly to my encounter 2 weeks ago, when we got the 2nd warning (14th tee) we were considerably ahead of the group behind so while there still was a large gap in front of us we hadn't been being pushed at all on the back 9. The Pro, when I related the story to him last Friday, acknowledged there was no other phone call/issue other than the one on the front.

>

> Also, as Matt related to us (thanks BTW Matt - once Mr Bean read your novel I had to as well LOL) the ranger had ZERO idea of what time we teed off and apparently didn't know we offered to let the group behind play through (coincidentally) right after he warned us the first time.

>

> Down here in SoFla the rangers are almost always a retiree who just wants to have a relaxed job when he can make a few bucks. That said, this ranger, while not a very good player, was a very experienced player and really should have known better.

>

> The Pro, as he should have, backed up his ranger about the first warning but when I told him we played in 3:20 and weren't holding anybody up on the back when the ranger confronted us, while he didn't "admit" the ranger shouldn't have said anything, he had this sort of sheepish smile going forward as he had no problem with the gap in front so long as we weren't holding anybody up.

>

> Totally coincidentally I didn't play there last Saturday as my other group had access to play a course we didn't get to play very often so I played with them last Saturday. And tomorrow is supposed to be rather rainy so I may not play with them again tomorrow. Point is I may not encounter that ranger for at least another week.

 

Such a typical story. See post above.

 

In order to have effective enforcement, you have to have effective enforcers.

[Lodestone]

> @nsxguy said:

> > @jholz said:

> > So far, I have seen little difference in the pace or quality of play under the new rules. No arguments on the green. No trouble when someone wants it out and another wants it in. We just deal with it.

> >

> > But then again, most of the weekend hacks I get paired with couldn't care less about completing their rounds under the ROG. So, I don't see it really changing much in terms of how my average round is played or how long it takes.

> >

> > Ultimately, I think the new flagstick rule is just bad legislation - mainly because they are trying to tackle a problem (slow play) that has already proven to be rules resistant.

> >

> > Every course I play has a rule concerning pace. None of them enforce it. Every major professional tour has a rule against slow play, yet the penalties have little teeth and are also rarely enforced. The USGA and R&A may claim to be concerned about pace of play, but their actions tell a different tale. Same thing with accessibility.

> >

> > Slow play is a cultural problem, and as such, cannot be legislated away.

> >

> >

>

> Yeah, where i am pretty much everybody has gotten into the flow of the choice of flagstick. Then again, we've be at it for 4 months now. Takes a little getting used to.

>

> And yes, slow play is a cultural sort of problem and those generally take a long time to work, if they ever do.

>

> As for it speeding up play though it's not expected to do it all by itself. Looking for lost ball from 5 minutes to 3 and the new drop rules are meant to help as well. A little bit here and a little bit there tends to add up.

>

> As for PoP, I wouldn't say every course doesn't enforce it. LOL

>

> Long story short, a couple of weeks ago my group lost sight of the group ahead on the 5th hole and the group behind us called the Pro Shop. I'd seen them back there and urged our group to pick it up just a little (and we did). Bu they caught us again on 8 just as the ranger came out to us as we were leaving the 8th green and warned us to pick up the pace.

>

> I happened heading towards the 9th tee already and wasn't with the rest of my group when we were warned and as the ranger played with us (somewhat larger group) quite a bit, I just thought he was asking them how we were doing and so I didn't ask.

>

> Turns out he warned us to catch up to the group in front.

>

> Finished 9 in 1:40

>

> Warned again on 14th tee.

>

> Finished 18 in 3:20 (not counting the 10 minutes waiting for the group behind to finish the 9th so we could let 'em through - though they decided not to)

>

> Sheesh. ¯\\_(ツ)_/¯

>

 

So, did this course have a "time par", or is the proper PoP whatever the fastest group on the course wants to play at?

 

In The Villages this winter we ran into a situation where we were asked, very nicely of course, to pick it up a bit, but we were actually ahead of the recommended time for our position on the course. We had 3 walkers and one in a cart, and 3-some in carts in front of us, and a 3-some in carts behind us. And, in The Villages, they don't want you letting groups play through because it messes with their ability to keep track of who is where.

Another time we were held up by the group in front of us for several holes, and then they got in a big hurry, picked up their balls and scooted back into position. By the time the marshal showed up it looked as if we were the culprits. Didn't seem right that we should have to pick up and catch up after waiting patiently for 4 holes.

 

For those of you who run into slow play a lot, what would you consider a reasonable "time par" for 18 holes at a public course?

[nsxguy]

> @Lodestone said:

> > @nsxguy said:

> > > @jholz said:

> > > So far, I have seen little difference in the pace or quality of play under the new rules. No arguments on the green. No trouble when someone wants it out and another wants it in. We just deal with it.

> > >

> > > But then again, most of the weekend hacks I get paired with couldn't care less about completing their rounds under the ROG. So, I don't see it really changing much in terms of how my average round is played or how long it takes.

> > >

> > > Ultimately, I think the new flagstick rule is just bad legislation - mainly because they are trying to tackle a problem (slow play) that has already proven to be rules resistant.

> > >

> > > Every course I play has a rule concerning pace. None of them enforce it. Every major professional tour has a rule against slow play, yet the penalties have little teeth and are also rarely enforced. The USGA and R&A may claim to be concerned about pace of play, but their actions tell a different tale. Same thing with accessibility.

> > >

> > > Slow play is a cultural problem, and as such, cannot be legislated away.

> > >

> > >

> >

> > Yeah, where i am pretty much everybody has gotten into the flow of the choice of flagstick. Then again, we've be at it for 4 months now. Takes a little getting used to.

> >

> > And yes, slow play is a cultural sort of problem and those generally take a long time to work, if they ever do.

> >

> > As for it speeding up play though it's not expected to do it all by itself. Looking for lost ball from 5 minutes to 3 and the new drop rules are meant to help as well. A little bit here and a little bit there tends to add up.

> >

> > As for PoP, I wouldn't say every course doesn't enforce it. LOL

> >

> > Long story short, a couple of weeks ago my group lost sight of the group ahead on the 5th hole and the group behind us called the Pro Shop. I'd seen them back there and urged our group to pick it up just a little (and we did). Bu they caught us again on 8 just as the ranger came out to us as we were leaving the 8th green and warned us to pick up the pace.

> >

> > I happened heading towards the 9th tee already and wasn't with the rest of my group when we were warned and as the ranger played with us (somewhat larger group) quite a bit, I just thought he was asking them how we were doing and so I didn't ask.

> >

> > Turns out he warned us to catch up to the group in front.

> >

> > Finished 9 in 1:40

> >

> > Warned again on 14th tee.

> >

> > Finished 18 in 3:20 (not counting the 10 minutes waiting for the group behind to finish the 9th so we could let 'em through - though they decided not to)

> >

> > Sheesh. ¯\\_(ツ)_/¯

> >

>

> So, did this course have a "time par", or is the proper PoP whatever the fastest group on the course wants to play at?

>

> For those of you who run into slow play a lot, what would you consider a reasonable "time par" for 18 holes at a public course?

 

No. Another course I play has 4:15 but I suspect, on the weekend, they'd be thrilled with 4:30-4:45.

 

This particular course has on the back of the card "Please allow faster groups to play through".

 

As for a public course PoP, when I played Sunday mornings up in the NYC area the first 6 or 7 groups of the day would probably be around 4-4:15 but after an hour or 2 of tee times, it's 5 hours minimum.

 

So I guess it really depends on just how crowded the courses get on weekends. Other than prime time I'd say 4:15 is about right.

[jholz]

> @Lodestone said:

> > @nsxguy said:

> > > @jholz said:

> > > So far, I have seen little difference in the pace or quality of play under the new rules. No arguments on the green. No trouble when someone wants it out and another wants it in. We just deal with it.

> > >

> > > But then again, most of the weekend hacks I get paired with couldn't care less about completing their rounds under the ROG. So, I don't see it really changing much in terms of how my average round is played or how long it takes.

> > >

> > > Ultimately, I think the new flagstick rule is just bad legislation - mainly because they are trying to tackle a problem (slow play) that has already proven to be rules resistant.

> > >

> > > Every course I play has a rule concerning pace. None of them enforce it. Every major professional tour has a rule against slow play, yet the penalties have little teeth and are also rarely enforced. The USGA and R&A may claim to be concerned about pace of play, but their actions tell a different tale. Same thing with accessibility.

> > >

> > > Slow play is a cultural problem, and as such, cannot be legislated away.

> > >

> > >

> >

> > Yeah, where i am pretty much everybody has gotten into the flow of the choice of flagstick. Then again, we've be at it for 4 months now. Takes a little getting used to.

> >

> > And yes, slow play is a cultural sort of problem and those generally take a long time to work, if they ever do.

> >

> > As for it speeding up play though it's not expected to do it all by itself. Looking for lost ball from 5 minutes to 3 and the new drop rules are meant to help as well. A little bit here and a little bit there tends to add up.

> >

> > As for PoP, I wouldn't say every course doesn't enforce it. LOL

> >

> > Long story short, a couple of weeks ago my group lost sight of the group ahead on the 5th hole and the group behind us called the Pro Shop. I'd seen them back there and urged our group to pick it up just a little (and we did). Bu they caught us again on 8 just as the ranger came out to us as we were leaving the 8th green and warned us to pick up the pace.

> >

> > I happened heading towards the 9th tee already and wasn't with the rest of my group when we were warned and as the ranger played with us (somewhat larger group) quite a bit, I just thought he was asking them how we were doing and so I didn't ask.

> >

> > Turns out he warned us to catch up to the group in front.

> >

> > Finished 9 in 1:40

> >

> > Warned again on 14th tee.

> >

> > Finished 18 in 3:20 (not counting the 10 minutes waiting for the group behind to finish the 9th so we could let 'em through - though they decided not to)

> >

> > Sheesh. ¯\\_(ツ)_/¯

> >

>

> So, did this course have a "time par", or is the proper PoP whatever the fastest group on the course wants to play at?

>

> In The Villages this winter we ran into a situation where we were asked, very nicely of course, to pick it up a bit, but we were actually ahead of the recommended time for our position on the course. We had 3 walkers and one in a cart, and 3-some in carts in front of us, and a 3-some in carts behind us. And, in The Villages, they don't want you letting groups play through because it messes with their ability to keep track of who is where.

> Another time we were held up by the group in front of us for several holes, and then they got in a big hurry, picked up their balls and scooted back into position. By the time the marshal showed up it looked as if we were the culprits. Didn't seem right that we should have to pick up and catch up after waiting patiently for 4 holes.

>

> For those of you who run into slow play a lot, what would you consider a reasonable "time par" for 18 holes at a public course

 

In my experience, PoP rules have always been time based - with roughly 4:20 or 4:30 being the maximum allowable time. People would only be put on the clock, or eventually asked to leave the course if: a) they were over the allowed pace, and b) if there was a gap between themselves and the group in front (i.e. obvious, incontrovertible evidence for the group being responsible for the delay). If both those criteria were met, then a group could be approached by the ranger and the pace quickening protocols could begin. If those didn't work, then the group could be asked to leave.

 

As many of us have experienced, some rangers/courses/individuals tend to just skip over the first criteria, and simply apply the second, regardless of the total elapsed time of the round.

 

In my opinion, the "keeping up with the group ahead of you" principle should only come into play if the overall pace has slowed to a point where the majority of groups are going to exceed the mandated pace.

 

If you have gap in front, people backed up behind, and yet the culprits are still under the allowed pace, I don't think it reasonable to threaten removal from the course. That's when you force them to let a group or two play through.

 

 

[Lodestone]

I hate having anyone waiting on me if a hole is open, no matter how fast we are moving. I would much rather let faster players through. Unfortunately, I've had the experience where the very first time the group catches up to us they start yelling, with no regard for the fact that we are well under our time par. Oh well,,, jerks abound in all walks of life. Why should the golf course be any different?

[Sawgrass]

Epic threadjack.

[sui generis]

> @Sawgrass said:

> Epic threadjack.

 

Mercifully. :)

[Matt J]

I've spoken with our pro where I currently play about the volunteer ranger program. Unfortunately, his analysis seems to reflect the exact conflict that Mr. Bean described. He's a new head pro and the ownership of the course wants to see a drastic increase in the number of rounds being played. He does not want to make a decision that could jeopardize volume. On some level there is a point in most discussions you have to "feel," "believe," or simply know what is right. I do not think he believes that a stringent PoP policy would result in more rounds. I think he's incorrect. The course is in a perfect position in the market to make such a move. But, from his perspective, there is a scale and on one side there is "add more work to an already taxing job" and on the other side there is "might not result in our end goal" and that will never add up to action.

[nsxguy]

> @"Matt J" said:

> I've spoken with our pro where I currently play about the volunteer ranger program. Unfortunately, his analysis seems to reflect the exact conflict that Mr. Bean described. He's a new head pro and the ownership of the course wants to see a drastic increase in the number of rounds being played. He does not want to make a decision that could jeopardize volume. On some level there is a point in most discussions you have to "feel," "believe," or simply know what is right. I do not think he believes that a stringent PoP policy would result in more rounds. I think he's incorrect. The course is in a perfect position in the market to make such a move. But, from his perspective, there is a scale and on one side there is "add more work to an already taxing job" and on the other side there is "might not result in our end goal" and that will never add up to action.

 

The Pro needs to have a conversation with ownership about the exact same situations as described above and let ownership make the decision FOR him. IMO this decision shouldn't be on the Pro.

[bladehunter]

> @Roadking2003 said:

> > @jholz said:>

> > Now, if they would start enforcing something like your rule on the major tours - that is something that I think could change the culture. I would certainly be in support of that.

> >

> > If you can show guys shooting good scores and winning tournaments without taking 15 minutes over every shot, then recreational players might begin thinking that they can do it too.

>

> I've been playing for decades and never felt like anybody I play with is slow due to watching the pros. I've also never seen anybody take 15 minutes over one shot, much less every shot.

 

> @nsxguy said:

> > @"Matt J" said:

> > I've spoken with our pro where I currently play about the volunteer ranger program. Unfortunately, his analysis seems to reflect the exact conflict that Mr. Bean described. He's a new head pro and the ownership of the course wants to see a drastic increase in the number of rounds being played. He does not want to make a decision that could jeopardize volume. On some level there is a point in most discussions you have to "feel," "believe," or simply know what is right. I do not think he believes that a stringent PoP policy would result in more rounds. I think he's incorrect. The course is in a perfect position in the market to make such a move. But, from his perspective, there is a scale and on one side there is "add more work to an already taxing job" and on the other side there is "might not result in our end goal" and that will never add up to action.

>

> The Pro needs to have a conversation with ownership about the exact same situations as described above and let ownership make the decision FOR him. IMO this decision shouldn't be on the Pro.

 

Agree but it always is. Pro is generally a synonym for scapegoat. And yet usually that same pro has no real power.

[hybrid25]

I thought this thread was about the flagstick rule? Although, it has been beaten to death over and over. Sometimes I wonder if people that argue a lot in here actually play golf, or just find a forum to argue in?

[Hawkeye77]

I played 9 by myself Friday, pulled the flag on short to medium length putts, leaving it in only for some, but not all, long putts (unless I'm walking by the flag on the way to my ball, then out it comes). It's nice to leave it in when there isn't someone to tend it, that's about the only value I see.

 

Seems like the consensus in our group is flag out, but not necessarily always as one or two seem to be working it out, so I'm asking before pulling it If I'm the one pulling the flag, and trying to get a feel for preferences.

 

There is nothing about leaving it in vs. out that is speeding up play in any sense. We aren't slow anyway. Honestly, just a silly rule for which the original purpose had no basis in serious thought, other than "that should speed things up and people should like us for changing it".

[nsxguy]

> @hybrid25 said:

> I thought this thread was about the flagstick rule? Although, it has been beaten to death over and over. Sometimes I wonder if people that argue a lot in here actually play golf, or just find a forum to argue in?

 

So even though the original subject has been "beaten to death" (your words), and even though, to an "Epic threadjack" comment by one poster, another poster adds "Mercifully", you still object to the thread having drifted ?

 

Sounds like you fell very strongly both ways. LMAO

[Northerndan]

I love it. I got to keep asking my friend to put the flag back in for my putt.

It is such a dumb rule for the pga and who really cares if you leave it in for long putts when playing with buddies.

[hybrid25]

> @nsxguy said:

> > @hybrid25 said:

> > I thought this thread was about the flagstick rule? Although, it has been beaten to death over and over. Sometimes I wonder if people that argue a lot in here actually play golf, or just find a forum to argue in?

>

> So even though the original subject has been "beaten to death" (your words), and even though, to an "Epic threadjack" comment by one poster, another poster adds "Mercifully", you still object to the thread having drifted ?

>

> Sounds like you fell very strongly both ways. LMAO

 

> @nsxguy said:

> > @hybrid25 said:

> > I thought this thread was about the flagstick rule? Although, it has been beaten to death over and over. Sometimes I wonder if people that argue a lot in here actually play golf, or just find a forum to argue in?

>

> So even though the original subject has been "beaten to death" (your words), and even though, to an "Epic threadjack" comment by one poster, another poster adds "Mercifully", you still object to the thread having drifted ?

>

> Sounds like you fell very strongly both ways. LMAO

 

I do

[SnapHooker_307]

After 3 rounds played finally, I am thoroughly enjoying the leave the flag in rule. All 3 groups I played with would leave it in until we were all within about 10 feet, then all of us felt better just pulling it once we got that close. If somebody was putting downhill we let them decide if it was worth keeping in or not. So far so good.

[Matt J]

> @SnapHooker_605 said:

> After 3 rounds played finally, I am thoroughly enjoying the leave the flag in rule. All 3 groups I played with would leave it in until we were all within about 10 feet, then all of us felt better just pulling it once we got that close. If somebody was putting downhill we let them decide if it was worth keeping in or not. So far so good.

 

Glad someone likes it.

 

 

[HitEmTrue]

> @"Matt J" said:

> > @SnapHooker_605 said:

> > After 3 rounds played finally, I am thoroughly enjoying the leave the flag in rule. All 3 groups I played with would leave it in until we were all within about 10 feet, then all of us felt better just pulling it once we got that close. If somebody was putting downhill we let them decide if it was worth keeping in or not. So far so good.

>

> Glad someone likes it.

>

>

 

I've seen lots of tour pros leaving it in on long putts. Certainly they like it.

 

 

[Matt J]

Long putts aren't the issue. Just saves their caddie a tend. Guys who are superstitious like Adam Scott and DeShampoo and believe it helps on short putts are the kink in the machine.

[HitEmTrue]

> @"Matt J" said:

> Long putts aren't the issue. Just saves their caddie a tend.

 

Yes, but they choose to leave it in, rather than having it tended. And on tour, with caddies taking care of putting the flag back in while the player gets ready to put, it doesn't slow anything down.

 

 

[Hawkeye77]

Scott started out good, but last I saw him putting it was excruciating to watch. Maybe he'll keep leaving it in, but he's hard to watch when his putting fails him.

[nsxguy]

> @"Matt J" said:

> Long putts aren't the issue. Just saves their caddie a tend. Guys who are superstitious like Adam Scott and DeShampoo and believe it helps on short putts are the kink in the machine.

 

There IS no kink in the machine.

 

The pros have caddies that will pull the pin or put it back in so there's virtually zero lost time. Certainly nothing like a "kink".

 

For us hackers it's definitely is a time saver.

[Matt J]

It's like a broken record of Captain Obvious in this thread. The "kink" is the in and out near the hole. I mostly play with guys that like it pulled when they can see it, some of you are just leaving it in for everyone. There's no right or wrong. I'll tell you this though.... I'll be damned if I'm going to replace it for you. If it matters that much you can go get it.

[nsxguy]

> @"Matt J" said:

> It's like a broken record of Captain Obvious in this thread. The "kink" is the in and out near the hole. I mostly play with guys that like it pulled when they can see it, some of you are just leaving it in for everyone. There's no right or wrong. I'll tell you this though.... **I'll be damned if I'm going to replace it for you. If it matters that much you can go get it.**

 

LMAO

 

[BlackDiamondPar5]

> @"Matt J" said:

> It's like a broken record of Captain Obvious in this thread. The "kink" is the in and out near the hole. I mostly play with guys that like it pulled when they can see it, some of you are just leaving it in for everyone. There's no right or wrong. I'll tell you this though.... I'll be damned if I'm going to replace it for you. If it matters that much you can go get it.

 

Pretty much the policy of the guys I play with except we leave it in. If the odd man wants it pulled, unless within easy reach, then odd man gets it himself.

[nsxguy]

> @BlackDiamondPar5 said:

> > @"Matt J" said:

> > It's like a broken record of Captain Obvious in this thread. The "kink" is the in and out near the hole. I mostly play with guys that like it pulled when they can see it, some of you are just leaving it in for everyone. There's no right or wrong. I'll tell you this though.... I'll be damned if I'm going to replace it for you. If it matters that much you can go get it.

>

> Pretty much the policy of the guys I play with except we leave it in. If the odd man wants it pulled, unless within easy reach, then odd man gets it himself.

 

You guys are pretty tough.

 

When I play the other guys all pitch in and it's seldom NOT within easy reach - it ain't a big deal.

[Matt J]

Fair enough. I occassionally play with some premadonnas that freak out if it's in their through line. Figure a place to put it that's not in anyone's through line, ain't easy sometimes.

[rogolf]

Gawd, I just don't understand the situation (and apparent hostility). The Rules provide players with options - in, out or attended. Yet it seems that if the player wants it out, it's a PITA for those that want it in, and vice versa. Just deal with what your fellow player wants. Nobody is wrong (other than those who object to what the next player wants). It is still a gentleman's game.

[Augster]

What happened to people? Grow up. The pin is right there. When everyone lags with the pin in instead of attended, which 100% of playing partners have this year, then when someone wants it out or in, they are standing right there. No more walking all the way to the fringe to put the flag down. Usually someone lags it close and is conceded or putts out, then he just grabs the flag if the next guy wants it out.

 

The only time I leave it in now is if I could realistically accidentally hit it 10+feet past. Or I leave it in if it’s in. I’ll only make the effort to pull it if the flag shadow is distracting.

 

I prefer it out when inside 20 feet or so. But I’m not going to ask someone to pull it if it isn’t already pulled.

 

All of this. It really isn’t a big deal.