I hate the "Leaving the flag in" rule

[bladehunter]

> @nsxguy said:

> > @bladehunter said:

> > https://mobile.twitter.com/PGATOUR/status/1106612598538162176?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fd-575253979664032452.ampproject.net%2F1904301721170%2Fframe.html

> >

> >

> > Here’s link to video. That putt drops if the pin is out. Dead center.

>

> You think that putt drops if the flagstick is OUT ? O.M.G. !!!

>

> **Furyk's** quote _"This is the first time (that's happened), but this ball was humming. **It was going too fast**," Furyk said. "I had a gentleman on the way out saying, 'Tough luck, Jim,' but really, it was really good luck to be honest with you. **That wasn't going to catch the hole, it was going to go through it.**"_

 

I do. At worst it pops up and comes out just like it hit the pin. Least it would have a shot pin out. Pin in its out 100% of the time. We’ve alll seen putts go in faster than that. It was uphill. At best 3 ft by if it missed the hole. At best.

 

Pay attention to its pace before the camera zooms in. It’s the zoom that makes you believe it’s going faster than it is. Camera trick. Zero chance that’s fast enough to completely jump the hole.

[nsxguy]

> @bladehunter said:

> > @nsxguy said:

> > > @bladehunter said:

> > > https://mobile.twitter.com/PGATOUR/status/1106612598538162176?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fd-575253979664032452.ampproject.net%2F1904301721170%2Fframe.html

> > >

> > >

> > > Here’s link to video. That putt drops if the pin is out. Dead center.

> >

> > You think that putt drops if the flagstick is OUT ? O.M.G. !!!

> >

> > **Furyk's** quote _"This is the first time (that's happened), but this ball was humming. **It was going too fast**," Furyk said. "I had a gentleman on the way out saying, 'Tough luck, Jim,' but really, it was really good luck to be honest with you. **That wasn't going to catch the hole, it was going to go through it.**"_

>

> I do. At worst it pops up and comes out just like it hit the pin. Least it would have a shot pin out. Pin in its out 100% of the time. We’ve alll seen putts go in faster than that. It was uphill. At best 3 ft by if it missed the hole. At best.

 

"Pin in it's out 100% of the time" ???

 

YOU may have seen faster putts go in but at that speed *I* have seen putts not even touch the back of the hole.

 

You have 1 of the best 150 golfers ON THE PLANET saying it "_wasn't going to catch the hole, it was going through it_", but YOU know it would've gone in.

 

OK my friend. I guess you and I (and Furyk) will have to agree to disagree.

[dpb5031]

For those who believe that leaving the flag stick in is truly an advantage, the ruling bodies are next going to enlarge the hole from 4.25" to 6". This should also speed things up... the heck with the game's historical scoring records and tradition...lol! ?

[nsxguy]

> @dpb5031 said:

> For those who believe that leaving the flag stick in is truly an advantage, the ruling bodies are next going to enlarge the hole from 4.25" to 6". This should also speed things up... the heck with the game's historical scoring records and tradition...lol! ?

 


 

[Roadking2003]

> @bladehunter said:

> https://mobile.twitter.com/PGATOUR/status/1106612598538162176?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fd-575253979664032452.ampproject.net%2F1904301721170%2Fframe.html

>

>

> Here’s link to video. That putt drops if the pin is out. Dead center.

 

Or, maybe it goes five feet by if the flag is out.

[Jackal66]

The courses where I play, the flag is sloppy in the hole.

Most of the time the flag is leaning.

I have had 3 or more putts in the last 2 months hit the flag stick and deflect off.

Not sure they would have dropped without the flag,but........

[I_HATE_SNOW]

> @dpb5031 said:

> For those who believe that leaving the flag stick in is truly an advantage, the ruling bodies are next going to enlarge the hole from 4.25" to 6". This should also speed things up... the heck with the game's historical scoring records and tradition...lol! ?

 

You might want to check the history of putting with the flag in.

[bladehunter]

> @I_HATE_SNOW said:

> > @dpb5031 said:

> > For those who believe that leaving the flag stick in is truly an advantage, the ruling bodies are next going to enlarge the hole from 4.25" to 6". This should also speed things up... the heck with the game's historical scoring records and tradition...lol! ?

>

> You might want to check the history of putting with the flag in.

 

Somebody changed it for a reason.

[bladehunter]

> @nsxguy said:

> > @bladehunter said:

> > > @nsxguy said:

> > > > @bladehunter said:

> > > > https://mobile.twitter.com/PGATOUR/status/1106612598538162176?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fd-575253979664032452.ampproject.net%2F1904301721170%2Fframe.html

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > Here’s link to video. That putt drops if the pin is out. Dead center.

> > >

> > > You think that putt drops if the flagstick is OUT ? O.M.G. !!!

> > >

> > > **Furyk's** quote _"This is the first time (that's happened), but this ball was humming. **It was going too fast**," Furyk said. "I had a gentleman on the way out saying, 'Tough luck, Jim,' but really, it was really good luck to be honest with you. **That wasn't going to catch the hole, it was going to go through it.**"_

> >

> > I do. At worst it pops up and comes out just like it hit the pin. Least it would have a shot pin out. Pin in its out 100% of the time. We’ve alll seen putts go in faster than that. It was uphill. At best 3 ft by if it missed the hole. At best.

>

> "Pin in it's out 100% of the time" ???

>

> YOU may have seen faster putts go in but at that speed *I* have seen putts not even touch the back of the hole.

>

> You have 1 of the best 150 golfers ON THE PLANET saying it "_wasn't going to catch the hole, it was going through it_", but YOU know it would've gone in.

>

> OK my friend. I guess you and I (and Furyk) will have to agree to disagree.

 

Jim has the look of “ you can’t be serious “ when that came back out. Not the look of “ I got away with one “. And he’s been a big part of one of the studies to show that leaving the pin in is the percentage play. No chance he comes out against what he’s been preaching. I don’t need his eyes to see it. I had a closeup camera view. That ball doesn’t jump the hole without a ramp. No way. If it’s going 10 feet by , why does it only rebound off the pin 2.5 inches total ? We could pretty easily determine its speed if we had the cor of that pin and a stimp meter to test with.

[nsxguy]

> @bladehunter said:

> > @nsxguy said:

> > > @bladehunter said:

> > > > @nsxguy said:

> > > > > @bladehunter said:

> > > > > https://mobile.twitter.com/PGATOUR/status/1106612598538162176?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fd-575253979664032452.ampproject.net%2F1904301721170%2Fframe.html

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > Here’s link to video. That putt drops if the pin is out. Dead center.

> > > >

> > > > You think that putt drops if the flagstick is OUT ? O.M.G. !!!

> > > >

> > > > **Furyk's** quote _"This is the first time (that's happened), but this ball was humming. **It was going too fast**," Furyk said. "I had a gentleman on the way out saying, 'Tough luck, Jim,' but really, it was really good luck to be honest with you. **That wasn't going to catch the hole, it was going to go through it.**"_

> > >

> > > I do. At worst it pops up and comes out just like it hit the pin. Least it would have a shot pin out. Pin in its out 100% of the time. We’ve alll seen putts go in faster than that. It was uphill. At best 3 ft by if it missed the hole. At best.

> >

> > "Pin in it's out 100% of the time" ???

> >

> > YOU may have seen faster putts go in but at that speed *I* have seen putts not even touch the back of the hole.

> >

> > You have 1 of the best 150 golfers ON THE PLANET saying it "_wasn't going to catch the hole, it was going through it_", but YOU know it would've gone in.

> >

> > OK my friend. I guess you and I (and Furyk) will have to agree to disagree.

>

> Jim has the look of “ you can’t be serious “ when that came back out. Not the look of “ I got away with one “. And he’s been a big part of one of the studies to show that leaving the pin in is the percentage play. No chance he comes out against what he’s been preaching. I don’t need his eyes to see it. I had a closeup camera view. That ball doesn’t jump the hole without a ramp. No way. If it’s going 10 feet by , why does it only rebound off the pin 2.5 inches total ? We could pretty easily determine its speed if we had the cor of that pin and a stimp meter to test with.

 

OK, fine. So your interpretation of his look is correct and what he says is not.

 

Got it.

[bladehunter]

> @nsxguy said:

> > @bladehunter said:

> > > @nsxguy said:

> > > > @bladehunter said:

> > > > > @nsxguy said:

> > > > > > @bladehunter said:

> > > > > > https://mobile.twitter.com/PGATOUR/status/1106612598538162176?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fd-575253979664032452.ampproject.net%2F1904301721170%2Fframe.html

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Here’s link to video. That putt drops if the pin is out. Dead center.

> > > > >

> > > > > You think that putt drops if the flagstick is OUT ? O.M.G. !!!

> > > > >

> > > > > **Furyk's** quote _"This is the first time (that's happened), but this ball was humming. **It was going too fast**," Furyk said. "I had a gentleman on the way out saying, 'Tough luck, Jim,' but really, it was really good luck to be honest with you. **That wasn't going to catch the hole, it was going to go through it.**"_

> > > >

> > > > I do. At worst it pops up and comes out just like it hit the pin. Least it would have a shot pin out. Pin in its out 100% of the time. We’ve alll seen putts go in faster than that. It was uphill. At best 3 ft by if it missed the hole. At best.

> > >

> > > "Pin in it's out 100% of the time" ???

> > >

> > > YOU may have seen faster putts go in but at that speed *I* have seen putts not even touch the back of the hole.

> > >

> > > You have 1 of the best 150 golfers ON THE PLANET saying it "_wasn't going to catch the hole, it was going through it_", but YOU know it would've gone in.

> > >

> > > OK my friend. I guess you and I (and Furyk) will have to agree to disagree.

> >

> > Jim has the look of “ you can’t be serious “ when that came back out. Not the look of “ I got away with one “. And he’s been a big part of one of the studies to show that leaving the pin in is the percentage play. No chance he comes out against what he’s been preaching. I don’t need his eyes to see it. I had a closeup camera view. That ball doesn’t jump the hole without a ramp. No way. If it’s going 10 feet by , why does it only rebound off the pin 2.5 inches total ? We could pretty easily determine its speed if we had the cor of that pin and a stimp meter to test with.

>

> OK, fine. So your interpretation of his look is correct and what he says is not.

>

> Got it.

 

I gave you my opinion. Weighs as much as yours and his. Truly. It’s a putt. Plenty of players lie to themselves to save their brain the agony of a wrong decision. It’s common. I simply said last that we could actually measure and find out if we had a pga pin. ( I understand they are supposedly more receptive that average ).

[I_HATE_SNOW]

> @bladehunter said:

> > @I_HATE_SNOW said:

> > > @dpb5031 said:

> > > For those who believe that leaving the flag stick in is truly an advantage, the ruling bodies are next going to enlarge the hole from 4.25" to 6". This should also speed things up... the heck with the game's historical scoring records and tradition...lol! ?

> >

> > You might want to check the history of putting with the flag in.

>

> Somebody changed it for a reason.

 

The newest spin is that it made the game easier?

[Newby]

> @dpb5031 said:

> the heck with the game's historical scoring records and tradition...lol! ?

A penalty hasn't always been the rule.

**The Flagstick**

First mention 1875, but certainly in use before then.

1875 either party **may** have the flagstick removed when approaching the hole. This stayed in force until 1956.

R&A 1882 when a ball is within 20 yds of the hole, the flagstick must be removed (in stroke play) - 1899 rules included a one stroke penalty for a breach. **No penalty in match play** for hitting the flagstick, attended or not.

R&A 1882 when a ball rests against the flagstick, the stick may be removed.

1902 Loss of hole for striking a flagstick that had been removed by player's own side. In stroke play, the flagstick must be removed before playing when ball from within 20 yards, penalty 1 stroke.

1908 Stroke play, rule changed to 2 strokes penalty for hitting the flagstick or a person standing at the hole. 1912 word change to read 'strikes, or is stopped by...'

1933 loss of hole for striking a flagstick removed or held by the player's own side - if held or removed by opponents, then THEY lost the hole. Stroke play rule unchanged.

The 1952 code restated that striking an unattended flagstick from anywhere carried no penalty in match play, or from over 20 yards from the hole in stroke play. Striking the flagstick or the person attending it from within 20 yards carried a 2 stroke penalty.

1956 Rule was rewritten. Now the responsibilities and penalties fell to the player, and match and stroke play were treated the same. Two strokes or loss of hole if the player's ball struck the flagstick or the person attending it. **No penalty for striking an unattended flagstick from any distance**

1960 In adjusting the flagstick, the player may leave it at whatever angle it is found at, or set it upright. He cannot tilt the stick to his advantage (decision, 1956).

1968 penalty of loss of hole or 2 strokes for hitting an unattended flagstick with stroke from the putting green.

2019 A player putting now has a choice of having the flagstick removed or left in place.

[dpb5031]

> @Newby said:

> > @dpb5031 said:

> > the heck with the game's historical scoring records and tradition...lol! ?

> A penalty hasn't always been the rule.

> **The Flagstick**

> First mention 1875, but certainly in use before then.

> 1875 either party **may** have the flagstick removed when approaching the hole. This stayed in force until 1956.

> R&A 1882 when a ball is within 20 yds of the hole, the flagstick must be removed (in stroke play) - 1899 rules included a one stroke penalty for a breach. **No penalty in match play** for hitting the flagstick, attended or not.

> R&A 1882 when a ball rests against the flagstick, the stick may be removed.

> 1902 Loss of hole for striking a flagstick that had been removed by player's own side. In stroke play, the flagstick must be removed before playing when ball from within 20 yards, penalty 1 stroke.

> 1908 Stroke play, rule changed to 2 strokes penalty for hitting the flagstick or a person standing at the hole. 1912 word change to read 'strikes, or is stopped by...'

> 1933 loss of hole for striking a flagstick removed or held by the player's own side - if held or removed by opponents, then THEY lost the hole. Stroke play rule unchanged.

> The 1952 code restated that striking an unattended flagstick from anywhere carried no penalty in match play, or from over 20 yards from the hole in stroke play. Striking the flagstick or the person attending it from within 20 yards carried a 2 stroke penalty.

> 1956 Rule was rewritten. Now the responsibilities and penalties fell to the player, and match and stroke play were treated the same. Two strokes or loss of hole if the player's ball struck the flagstick or the person attending it. **No penalty for striking an unattended flagstick from any distance**

> 1960 In adjusting the flagstick, the player may leave it at whatever angle it is found at, or set it upright. He cannot tilt the stick to his advantage (decision, 1956).

> 1968 penalty of loss of hole or 2 strokes for hitting an unattended flagstick with stroke from the putting green.

> 2019 A player putting now has a choice of having the flagstick removed or left in place.

 

Thanks for posting...that was informative.

 

I'll stand by what I previously said. The ruling bodies have determined (contrary to some people's opinions) that leaving the flag stick in provides a player no advantage. They therefore simplified the rules and got rid of what was previously an unnecessary penalty and at times a cumbersome inconvenience.

 

I remain of the opinion that if the USGA had learned, through whatever testing they conducted, that putting with the flag stick in provided a statistical advantage, they would not have changed the rule.

 

[Sawgrass]

> @dpb5031 said:

> > @Newby said:

> > > @dpb5031 said:

> > > the heck with the game's historical scoring records and tradition...lol! ?

> > A penalty hasn't always been the rule.

> > **The Flagstick**

> > First mention 1875, but certainly in use before then.

> > 1875 either party **may** have the flagstick removed when approaching the hole. This stayed in force until 1956.

> > R&A 1882 when a ball is within 20 yds of the hole, the flagstick must be removed (in stroke play) - 1899 rules included a one stroke penalty for a breach. **No penalty in match play** for hitting the flagstick, attended or not.

> > R&A 1882 when a ball rests against the flagstick, the stick may be removed.

> > 1902 Loss of hole for striking a flagstick that had been removed by player's own side. In stroke play, the flagstick must be removed before playing when ball from within 20 yards, penalty 1 stroke.

> > 1908 Stroke play, rule changed to 2 strokes penalty for hitting the flagstick or a person standing at the hole. 1912 word change to read 'strikes, or is stopped by...'

> > 1933 loss of hole for striking a flagstick removed or held by the player's own side - if held or removed by opponents, then THEY lost the hole. Stroke play rule unchanged.

> > The 1952 code restated that striking an unattended flagstick from anywhere carried no penalty in match play, or from over 20 yards from the hole in stroke play. Striking the flagstick or the person attending it from within 20 yards carried a 2 stroke penalty.

> > 1956 Rule was rewritten. Now the responsibilities and penalties fell to the player, and match and stroke play were treated the same. Two strokes or loss of hole if the player's ball struck the flagstick or the person attending it. **No penalty for striking an unattended flagstick from any distance**

> > 1960 In adjusting the flagstick, the player may leave it at whatever angle it is found at, or set it upright. He cannot tilt the stick to his advantage (decision, 1956).

> > 1968 penalty of loss of hole or 2 strokes for hitting an unattended flagstick with stroke from the putting green.

> > 2019 A player putting now has a choice of having the flagstick removed or left in place.

>

> Thanks for posting...that was informative.

>

> I'll stand by what I previously said. The ruling bodies have determined (contrary to some people's opinions) that leaving the flag stick in provides a player no advantage. They therefore simplified the rules and got rid of what was previously an unnecessary penalty and at times a cumbersome inconvenience.

>

> I remain of the opinion that if the USGA had learned, through whatever testing they conducted, that putting with the flag stick in provided a statistical advantage, they would not have changed the rule.

>

 

Many of the 2019 changes the USGA/R&A instituted provide a "statistical advantage." For instance, accidentally hitting yourself or your equipment is no longer a penalty -- and that's certainly a statistical advantage. I would be cautious regarding your assumption that a statistical advantage is an analysis you can use to infer their intention. It's possible that "This may provide a modest advantage, but we like it anyway for other reasons" was the operating principle.

[dpb5031]

> @Sawgrass said:

> > @dpb5031 said:

> > > @Newby said:

> > > > @dpb5031 said:

> > > > the heck with the game's historical scoring records and tradition...lol! ?

> > > A penalty hasn't always been the rule.

> > > **The Flagstick**

> > > First mention 1875, but certainly in use before then.

> > > 1875 either party **may** have the flagstick removed when approaching the hole. This stayed in force until 1956.

> > > R&A 1882 when a ball is within 20 yds of the hole, the flagstick must be removed (in stroke play) - 1899 rules included a one stroke penalty for a breach. **No penalty in match play** for hitting the flagstick, attended or not.

> > > R&A 1882 when a ball rests against the flagstick, the stick may be removed.

> > > 1902 Loss of hole for striking a flagstick that had been removed by player's own side. In stroke play, the flagstick must be removed before playing when ball from within 20 yards, penalty 1 stroke.

> > > 1908 Stroke play, rule changed to 2 strokes penalty for hitting the flagstick or a person standing at the hole. 1912 word change to read 'strikes, or is stopped by...'

> > > 1933 loss of hole for striking a flagstick removed or held by the player's own side - if held or removed by opponents, then THEY lost the hole. Stroke play rule unchanged.

> > > The 1952 code restated that striking an unattended flagstick from anywhere carried no penalty in match play, or from over 20 yards from the hole in stroke play. Striking the flagstick or the person attending it from within 20 yards carried a 2 stroke penalty.

> > > 1956 Rule was rewritten. Now the responsibilities and penalties fell to the player, and match and stroke play were treated the same. Two strokes or loss of hole if the player's ball struck the flagstick or the person attending it. **No penalty for striking an unattended flagstick from any distance**

> > > 1960 In adjusting the flagstick, the player may leave it at whatever angle it is found at, or set it upright. He cannot tilt the stick to his advantage (decision, 1956).

> > > 1968 penalty of loss of hole or 2 strokes for hitting an unattended flagstick with stroke from the putting green.

> > > 2019 A player putting now has a choice of having the flagstick removed or left in place.

> >

> > Thanks for posting...that was informative.

> >

> > I'll stand by what I previously said. The ruling bodies have determined (contrary to some people's opinions) that leaving the flag stick in provides a player no advantage. They therefore simplified the rules and got rid of what was previously an unnecessary penalty and at times a cumbersome inconvenience.

> >

> > I remain of the opinion that if the USGA had learned, through whatever testing they conducted, that putting with the flag stick in provided a statistical advantage, they would not have changed the rule.

> >

>

> Many of the 2019 changes the USGA/R&A instituted provide a "statistical advantage." For instance, accidentally hitting yourself or your equipment is no longer a penalty -- and that's certainly a statistical advantage. I would be cautious regarding your assumption that a statistical advantage is an analysis you can use to infer their intention. It's possible that "This may provide a modest advantage, but we like it anyway for other reasons" was the operating principle.

 

Your example is an extremely rare "one-off" scenario. I'm not generalizing their intentions for all rules cases.

 

So what's your opinion? Why'd they change the rule? Is flag in an advantage or not? I say absolutely no advantage and they wouldn't have changed the rule if their studies determined that it was.

 

 

[Sawgrass]

> @dpb5031 said:

> > @Sawgrass said:

> > > @dpb5031 said:

> > > > @Newby said:

> > > > > @dpb5031 said:

> > > > > the heck with the game's historical scoring records and tradition...lol! ?

> > > > A penalty hasn't always been the rule.

> > > > **The Flagstick**

> > > > First mention 1875, but certainly in use before then.

> > > > 1875 either party **may** have the flagstick removed when approaching the hole. This stayed in force until 1956.

> > > > R&A 1882 when a ball is within 20 yds of the hole, the flagstick must be removed (in stroke play) - 1899 rules included a one stroke penalty for a breach. **No penalty in match play** for hitting the flagstick, attended or not.

> > > > R&A 1882 when a ball rests against the flagstick, the stick may be removed.

> > > > 1902 Loss of hole for striking a flagstick that had been removed by player's own side. In stroke play, the flagstick must be removed before playing when ball from within 20 yards, penalty 1 stroke.

> > > > 1908 Stroke play, rule changed to 2 strokes penalty for hitting the flagstick or a person standing at the hole. 1912 word change to read 'strikes, or is stopped by...'

> > > > 1933 loss of hole for striking a flagstick removed or held by the player's own side - if held or removed by opponents, then THEY lost the hole. Stroke play rule unchanged.

> > > > The 1952 code restated that striking an unattended flagstick from anywhere carried no penalty in match play, or from over 20 yards from the hole in stroke play. Striking the flagstick or the person attending it from within 20 yards carried a 2 stroke penalty.

> > > > 1956 Rule was rewritten. Now the responsibilities and penalties fell to the player, and match and stroke play were treated the same. Two strokes or loss of hole if the player's ball struck the flagstick or the person attending it. **No penalty for striking an unattended flagstick from any distance**

> > > > 1960 In adjusting the flagstick, the player may leave it at whatever angle it is found at, or set it upright. He cannot tilt the stick to his advantage (decision, 1956).

> > > > 1968 penalty of loss of hole or 2 strokes for hitting an unattended flagstick with stroke from the putting green.

> > > > 2019 A player putting now has a choice of having the flagstick removed or left in place.

> > >

> > > Thanks for posting...that was informative.

> > >

> > > I'll stand by what I previously said. The ruling bodies have determined (contrary to some people's opinions) that leaving the flag stick in provides a player no advantage. They therefore simplified the rules and got rid of what was previously an unnecessary penalty and at times a cumbersome inconvenience.

> > >

> > > I remain of the opinion that if the USGA had learned, through whatever testing they conducted, that putting with the flag stick in provided a statistical advantage, they would not have changed the rule.

> > >

> >

> > Many of the 2019 changes the USGA/R&A instituted provide a "statistical advantage." For instance, accidentally hitting yourself or your equipment is no longer a penalty -- and that's certainly a statistical advantage. I would be cautious regarding your assumption that a statistical advantage is an analysis you can use to infer their intention. It's possible that "This may provide a modest advantage, but we like it anyway for other reasons" was the operating principle.

>

> Your example is an extremely rare "one-off" scenario. I'm not generalizing their intentions for all rules cases.

>

> So what's your opinion? Why'd they change the rule? Is flag in an advantage or not? I say absolutely no advantage and they wouldn't have changed the rule if their studies determined that it was.

>

>

 

You can find their stated reason for the change here, in answer 4:

 

http://www.usga.org/content/dam/usga/pdf/2019/rules/Explanation%20for%20Each%20Major%20Change%20in%20the%20New%20Rules%20of%20Golf%20for%202019.pdf

 

It was about saving time. And while that response says there is no expectation that it will save strokes, the example I provided above was not a "one-off." There are many examples of rules changes that provide significant scoring benefits. Consider that you're now allowed to move a log in front of your ball in a penalty area, or to accidentally strike a ball more than once penalty-free.

 

To me, I find the pin in a big time saver for long putts, and I don't care much one way or the other on shorter putts.

 

[nsxguy]

How about, for the conspiracy theorists and/or USGA haterz amongst us, the USGA found that leaving the flagstick in was an almost undetectably slight disadvantage but made the new rule in the name of saving time (which "everybody" wanted) with the thought "_Oh yeah ? They want to play faster ? Let's see how fast they want to play when the flagstick starts repelling shots_" LMAO

[dpb5031]

> @Sawgrass said:

> > @dpb5031 said:

> > > @Sawgrass said:

> > > > @dpb5031 said:

> > > > > @Newby said:

> > > > > > @dpb5031 said:

> > > > > > the heck with the game's historical scoring records and tradition...lol! ?

> > > > > A penalty hasn't always been the rule.

> > > > > **The Flagstick**

> > > > > First mention 1875, but certainly in use before then.

> > > > > 1875 either party **may** have the flagstick removed when approaching the hole. This stayed in force until 1956.

> > > > > R&A 1882 when a ball is within 20 yds of the hole, the flagstick must be removed (in stroke play) - 1899 rules included a one stroke penalty for a breach. **No penalty in match play** for hitting the flagstick, attended or not.

> > > > > R&A 1882 when a ball rests against the flagstick, the stick may be removed.

> > > > > 1902 Loss of hole for striking a flagstick that had been removed by player's own side. In stroke play, the flagstick must be removed before playing when ball from within 20 yards, penalty 1 stroke.

> > > > > 1908 Stroke play, rule changed to 2 strokes penalty for hitting the flagstick or a person standing at the hole. 1912 word change to read 'strikes, or is stopped by...'

> > > > > 1933 loss of hole for striking a flagstick removed or held by the player's own side - if held or removed by opponents, then THEY lost the hole. Stroke play rule unchanged.

> > > > > The 1952 code restated that striking an unattended flagstick from anywhere carried no penalty in match play, or from over 20 yards from the hole in stroke play. Striking the flagstick or the person attending it from within 20 yards carried a 2 stroke penalty.

> > > > > 1956 Rule was rewritten. Now the responsibilities and penalties fell to the player, and match and stroke play were treated the same. Two strokes or loss of hole if the player's ball struck the flagstick or the person attending it. **No penalty for striking an unattended flagstick from any distance**

> > > > > 1960 In adjusting the flagstick, the player may leave it at whatever angle it is found at, or set it upright. He cannot tilt the stick to his advantage (decision, 1956).

> > > > > 1968 penalty of loss of hole or 2 strokes for hitting an unattended flagstick with stroke from the putting green.

> > > > > 2019 A player putting now has a choice of having the flagstick removed or left in place.

> > > >

> > > > Thanks for posting...that was informative.

> > > >

> > > > I'll stand by what I previously said. The ruling bodies have determined (contrary to some people's opinions) that leaving the flag stick in provides a player no advantage. They therefore simplified the rules and got rid of what was previously an unnecessary penalty and at times a cumbersome inconvenience.

> > > >

> > > > I remain of the opinion that if the USGA had learned, through whatever testing they conducted, that putting with the flag stick in provided a statistical advantage, they would not have changed the rule.

> > > >

> > >

> > > Many of the 2019 changes the USGA/R&A instituted provide a "statistical advantage." For instance, accidentally hitting yourself or your equipment is no longer a penalty -- and that's certainly a statistical advantage. I would be cautious regarding your assumption that a statistical advantage is an analysis you can use to infer their intention. It's possible that "This may provide a modest advantage, but we like it anyway for other reasons" was the operating principle.

> >

> > Your example is an extremely rare "one-off" scenario. I'm not generalizing their intentions for all rules cases.

> >

> > So what's your opinion? Why'd they change the rule? Is flag in an advantage or not? I say absolutely no advantage and they wouldn't have changed the rule if their studies determined that it was.

> >

> >

>

> You can find their stated reason for the change here, in answer 4:

>

> http://www.usga.org/content/dam/usga/pdf/2019/rules/Explanation%20for%20Each%20Major%20Change%20in%20the%20New%20Rules%20of%20Golf%20for%202019.pdf

>

> It was about saving time. And while that response says there is no expectation that it will save strokes, the example I provided above was not a "one-off." There are many examples of rules changes that provide significant scoring benefits. Consider that you're now allowed to move a log in front of your ball in a penalty area, or to accidentally strike a ball more than once penalty-free.

>

> To me, I find the pin in a big time saver for long putts, and I don't care much one way or the other on shorter putts.

>

 

One-off was about hitting your own equipment as it's such a rare occurrence.

 

You didnt answer, do you believe it's an advantage or not. I say no advantage

 

I also do not think it saves time overall in most instances

 

Edit: to add that I do like not having to worry about having it tended on long lags, but the time savings is often offset with the in, out, in stuff

[bladehunter]

If time savings was the point then what a fail by the USga. It would take a entire group playing pin in for a year to measure time savings. I’ve yet to see that group.

[BlackDiamondPar5]

> @dpb5031 said:

> > @Sawgrass said:

> > > @dpb5031 said:

> > > > @Sawgrass said:

> > > > > @dpb5031 said:

> > > > > > @Newby said:

> > > > > > > @dpb5031 said:

> > > > > > > the heck with the game's historical scoring records and tradition...lol! ?

> > > > > > A penalty hasn't always been the rule.

> > > > > > **The Flagstick**

> > > > > > First mention 1875, but certainly in use before then.

> > > > > > 1875 either party **may** have the flagstick removed when approaching the hole. This stayed in force until 1956.

> > > > > > R&A 1882 when a ball is within 20 yds of the hole, the flagstick must be removed (in stroke play) - 1899 rules included a one stroke penalty for a breach. **No penalty in match play** for hitting the flagstick, attended or not.

> > > > > > R&A 1882 when a ball rests against the flagstick, the stick may be removed.

> > > > > > 1902 Loss of hole for striking a flagstick that had been removed by player's own side. In stroke play, the flagstick must be removed before playing when ball from within 20 yards, penalty 1 stroke.

> > > > > > 1908 Stroke play, rule changed to 2 strokes penalty for hitting the flagstick or a person standing at the hole. 1912 word change to read 'strikes, or is stopped by...'

> > > > > > 1933 loss of hole for striking a flagstick removed or held by the player's own side - if held or removed by opponents, then THEY lost the hole. Stroke play rule unchanged.

> > > > > > The 1952 code restated that striking an unattended flagstick from anywhere carried no penalty in match play, or from over 20 yards from the hole in stroke play. Striking the flagstick or the person attending it from within 20 yards carried a 2 stroke penalty.

> > > > > > 1956 Rule was rewritten. Now the responsibilities and penalties fell to the player, and match and stroke play were treated the same. Two strokes or loss of hole if the player's ball struck the flagstick or the person attending it. **No penalty for striking an unattended flagstick from any distance**

> > > > > > 1960 In adjusting the flagstick, the player may leave it at whatever angle it is found at, or set it upright. He cannot tilt the stick to his advantage (decision, 1956).

> > > > > > 1968 penalty of loss of hole or 2 strokes for hitting an unattended flagstick with stroke from the putting green.

> > > > > > 2019 A player putting now has a choice of having the flagstick removed or left in place.

> > > > >

> > > > > Thanks for posting...that was informative.

> > > > >

> > > > > I'll stand by what I previously said. The ruling bodies have determined (contrary to some people's opinions) that leaving the flag stick in provides a player no advantage. They therefore simplified the rules and got rid of what was previously an unnecessary penalty and at times a cumbersome inconvenience.

> > > > >

> > > > > I remain of the opinion that if the USGA had learned, through whatever testing they conducted, that putting with the flag stick in provided a statistical advantage, they would not have changed the rule.

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > Many of the 2019 changes the USGA/R&A instituted provide a "statistical advantage." For instance, accidentally hitting yourself or your equipment is no longer a penalty -- and that's certainly a statistical advantage. I would be cautious regarding your assumption that a statistical advantage is an analysis you can use to infer their intention. It's possible that "This may provide a modest advantage, but we like it anyway for other reasons" was the operating principle.

> > >

> > > Your example is an extremely rare "one-off" scenario. I'm not generalizing their intentions for all rules cases.

> > >

> > > So what's your opinion? Why'd they change the rule? Is flag in an advantage or not? I say absolutely no advantage and they wouldn't have changed the rule if their studies determined that it was.

> > >

> > >

> >

> > You can find their stated reason for the change here, in answer 4:

> >

> > http://www.usga.org/content/dam/usga/pdf/2019/rules/Explanation%20for%20Each%20Major%20Change%20in%20the%20New%20Rules%20of%20Golf%20for%202019.pdf

> >

> > It was about saving time. And while that response says there is no expectation that it will save strokes, the example I provided above was not a "one-off." There are many examples of rules changes that provide significant scoring benefits. Consider that you're now allowed to move a log in front of your ball in a penalty area, or to accidentally strike a ball more than once penalty-free.

> >

> > To me, I find the pin in a big time saver for long putts, and I don't care much one way or the other on shorter putts.

> >

>

> One-off was about hitting your own equipment as it's such a rare occurrence.

>

> You didnt answer, do you believe it's an advantage or not. I say no advantage

>

> I also do not think it saves time overall in most instances

>

> **Edit: to add that I do like not having to worry about having it tended on long lags, but the time savings is often offset with the in, out, in stuff**

 

Which is exactly why the groups I play in aren't doing the "in/out" thing and we give a guy with a 20 footer pressure for saying pull it (unless someone is close). Once everyone is within easy reach of the flag then no problem out it may go and then it stays out. I have yet to see someone say put it back in when we're close.

 

> @bladehunter said:

> If time savings was the point then what a fail by the USga. It would take a entire group playing pin in for a year to measure time savings. I’ve yet to see that group.

 

I wouldn't say it's a time saver if you have an in/out group. It can save time when guy is on the green and others are still chipping, especially if 1 of them has to walk around the back, assess a shot, select a club etc and other common situations.

[BlackDiamondPar5]

> @dpb5031 said:

> > @BlackDiamondPar5 said:

> > Dave Pelz: The science proves you should leave the flagstick in when you putt

> > https://www.golf.com/Instruction/2019/01/02/dave-plez-putt-with-the-flagstick-in-rule-change-2018

> >

>

> There are more recent and more thorough studies indicating the exact opposite:

>

> https://www.golfdigest.com/story/take-the-flagstick-out

>

> Do u really think the USGA is in the business of making the game easier. No way they would have changed the rule if there were any significant advantages

>

> Edit: to add that I've been noticing a trend where less and less guys are leaving it in, indicating that the fad is running its course. Only a few guys on TOUR leave it in at this point

 

Hardly a "fad" among my regulars. I see it being widely embraced with the groups I play with only a few outliers that will eventually join.

As for what the guys do on Tour, as another well respected WRXer has said about the Tour, "it's just a TV show." I certainly would like to see less Tour style behavior on public courses as these mid cappers (like me) are just wasting time pretty much anytime they emulate what they see on TV.

[dpb5031]

> @BlackDiamondPar5 said:

> > @dpb5031 said:

> > > @Sawgrass said:

> > > > @dpb5031 said:

> > > > > @Sawgrass said:

> > > > > > @dpb5031 said:

> > > > > > > @Newby said:

> > > > > > > > @dpb5031 said:

> > > > > > > > the heck with the game's historical scoring records and tradition...lol! ?

> > > > > > > A penalty hasn't always been the rule.

> > > > > > > **The Flagstick**

> > > > > > > First mention 1875, but certainly in use before then.

> > > > > > > 1875 either party **may** have the flagstick removed when approaching the hole. This stayed in force until 1956.

> > > > > > > R&A 1882 when a ball is within 20 yds of the hole, the flagstick must be removed (in stroke play) - 1899 rules included a one stroke penalty for a breach. **No penalty in match play** for hitting the flagstick, attended or not.

> > > > > > > R&A 1882 when a ball rests against the flagstick, the stick may be removed.

> > > > > > > 1902 Loss of hole for striking a flagstick that had been removed by player's own side. In stroke play, the flagstick must be removed before playing when ball from within 20 yards, penalty 1 stroke.

> > > > > > > 1908 Stroke play, rule changed to 2 strokes penalty for hitting the flagstick or a person standing at the hole. 1912 word change to read 'strikes, or is stopped by...'

> > > > > > > 1933 loss of hole for striking a flagstick removed or held by the player's own side - if held or removed by opponents, then THEY lost the hole. Stroke play rule unchanged.

> > > > > > > The 1952 code restated that striking an unattended flagstick from anywhere carried no penalty in match play, or from over 20 yards from the hole in stroke play. Striking the flagstick or the person attending it from within 20 yards carried a 2 stroke penalty.

> > > > > > > 1956 Rule was rewritten. Now the responsibilities and penalties fell to the player, and match and stroke play were treated the same. Two strokes or loss of hole if the player's ball struck the flagstick or the person attending it. **No penalty for striking an unattended flagstick from any distance**

> > > > > > > 1960 In adjusting the flagstick, the player may leave it at whatever angle it is found at, or set it upright. He cannot tilt the stick to his advantage (decision, 1956).

> > > > > > > 1968 penalty of loss of hole or 2 strokes for hitting an unattended flagstick with stroke from the putting green.

> > > > > > > 2019 A player putting now has a choice of having the flagstick removed or left in place.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Thanks for posting...that was informative.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I'll stand by what I previously said. The ruling bodies have determined (contrary to some people's opinions) that leaving the flag stick in provides a player no advantage. They therefore simplified the rules and got rid of what was previously an unnecessary penalty and at times a cumbersome inconvenience.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I remain of the opinion that if the USGA had learned, through whatever testing they conducted, that putting with the flag stick in provided a statistical advantage, they would not have changed the rule.

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > Many of the 2019 changes the USGA/R&A instituted provide a "statistical advantage." For instance, accidentally hitting yourself or your equipment is no longer a penalty -- and that's certainly a statistical advantage. I would be cautious regarding your assumption that a statistical advantage is an analysis you can use to infer their intention. It's possible that "This may provide a modest advantage, but we like it anyway for other reasons" was the operating principle.

> > > >

> > > > Your example is an extremely rare "one-off" scenario. I'm not generalizing their intentions for all rules cases.

> > > >

> > > > So what's your opinion? Why'd they change the rule? Is flag in an advantage or not? I say absolutely no advantage and they wouldn't have changed the rule if their studies determined that it was.

> > > >

> > > >

> > >

> > > You can find their stated reason for the change here, in answer 4:

> > >

> > > http://www.usga.org/content/dam/usga/pdf/2019/rules/Explanation%20for%20Each%20Major%20Change%20in%20the%20New%20Rules%20of%20Golf%20for%202019.pdf

> > >

> > > It was about saving time. And while that response says there is no expectation that it will save strokes, the example I provided above was not a "one-off." There are many examples of rules changes that provide significant scoring benefits. Consider that you're now allowed to move a log in front of your ball in a penalty area, or to accidentally strike a ball more than once penalty-free.

> > >

> > > To me, I find the pin in a big time saver for long putts, and I don't care much one way or the other on shorter putts.

> > >

> >

> > One-off was about hitting your own equipment as it's such a rare occurrence.

> >

> > You didnt answer, do you believe it's an advantage or not. I say no advantage

> >

> > I also do not think it saves time overall in most instances

> >

> > **Edit: to add that I do like not having to worry about having it tended on long lags, but the time savings is often offset with the in, out, in stuff**

>

> Which is exactly why the groups I play in aren't doing the "in/out" thing and we give a guy with a 20 footer pressure for saying pull it (unless someone is close). Once everyone is within easy reach of the flag then no problem out it may go and then it stays out. I have yet to see someone say put it back in when we're close.

>

> > @bladehunter said:

> > If time savings was the point then what a fail by the USga. It would take a entire group playing pin in for a year to measure time savings. I’ve yet to see that group.

>

> I wouldn't say it's a time saver if you have an in/out group. It can save time when guy is on the green and others are still chipping, especially if 1 of them has to walk around the back, assess a shot, select a club etc and other common situations.

 

Ok, so that's YOUR experience.

 

I've played over 60 rounds since the new rule, many being > @BlackDiamondPar5 said:

> > @dpb5031 said:

> > > @BlackDiamondPar5 said:

> > > Dave Pelz: The science proves you should leave the flagstick in when you putt

> > > https://www.golf.com/Instruction/2019/01/02/dave-plez-putt-with-the-flagstick-in-rule-change-2018

> > >

> >

> > There are more recent and more thorough studies indicating the exact opposite:

> >

> > https://www.golfdigest.com/story/take-the-flagstick-out

> >

> > Do u really think the USGA is in the business of making the game easier. No way they would have changed the rule if there were any significant advantages

> >

> > Edit: to add that I've been noticing a trend where less and less guys are leaving it in, indicating that the fad is running its course. Only a few guys on TOUR leave it in at this point

>

> Hardly a "fad" among my regulars. I see it being widely embraced with the groups I play with only a few outliers that will eventually join.

> As for what the guys do on Tour, as another well respected WRXer has said about the Tour, "it's just a TV show." I certainly would like to see less Tour style behavior on public courses as these mid cappers (like me) are just wasting time pretty much anytime they emulate what they see on TV.

 

Really silly point. Slow players/groups will be slow, fast players /groups will be fast. This rule change will have ZERO true impact on pace.

 

You can be fast or slow either way, pin in or pin out. Pace of play is a matter of intent, awareness, and considerateness. The rest is just window dressing

[Matt J]

I strongly suggest NOT reading any of the 18 pages of this thread and simply posting your thoughts on the rule. No one will read your post either, but we will all feel like we got to voice our opinion.

[jmkenn0]

Not that anyone cares, but I still find it most helpful 5 feet and in - just aim at the pin.

[dpb5031]

> @jmkenn0 said:

> Not that anyone cares, but I still find it most helpful 5 feet and in - just aim at the pin.

 

I suppose that's great as long as you never face any 5 footers with some break...?

[jmkenn0]

> @dpb5031 said:

> > @jmkenn0 said:

> > Not that anyone cares, but I still find it most helpful 5 feet and in - just aim at the pin.

>

> I suppose that's great as long as you never face any 5 footers with some break...?

 

True - our greens are fast with mostly subtle breaks so you generally aren't playing outside the hole- but yes anything I have to aim outside the hole it usually comes out.

[nsxguy]

> @bladehunter said:

> If time savings was the point then what a fail by the USga. It would take a entire group playing pin in for a year to measure time savings. I’ve yet to see that group.

 

While i wouldn't trust my memory on much I would bet that of those who voiced an opinion it's at least 3-1 expressing the opinion that it does save some time.

 

And no, I'm not going to look through the thread and check.

[HatsForBats]

> @dpb5031 said:

> For those who believe that leaving the flag stick in is truly an advantage, the ruling bodies are next going to enlarge the hole from 4.25" to 6". This should also speed things up... the heck with the game's historical scoring records and tradition...lol! ?

 

I wouldn't mind seeing them experiment with slightly larger hole sizes.

[Roadking2003]

> @bladehunter said:

> If time savings was the point then what a fail by the USga. It would take a entire group playing pin in for a year to measure time savings. I’ve yet to see that group.

 

I see it every week. The time savings is obvious in my group.