I hate the "Leaving the flag in" rule

[Halebopp]

> @HonestPlayer said:

> > @ThinkingPlus said:

> >

> > In general, based on research to date, better putters with good speed control will want the pin out at all times unless in a situation so difficult that speed cannot be controlled. Poor putters that cannot control speed well, will gain some slight benefit from leaving the pin in. Also if the pins are the floppy fiberglass ones there is more benefit than the stiff metal pins used in windier climes.

>

> Why? If you think that there is no advantage (or disadvantage) to taking the pin out - why waste time doing it if you are so good at putting? (you don't have to be taken literally here - more like a general/plural you). I believe every single player should leave the pin in. Only certain things are in your control in life and golf. Having the pin in is helpful always unless it's a gale force wind blowing the stick towards you (Therefore risking the pin keeping the putt out). It gives you a visual and will stop an over hit long distance putt (hopefully letting you hole it) Any other reasoning is purely mental and superstitions - not based on logic.

 

Because many people have noted there to be a disadvantage leaving the flagstick in. Personally for me the disadvantage comes in two forms - balls that should be dropping bouncing out and me aiming at the edge of the hole because my mind tells me that's where the hole is, not in the middle of the cup.

[bigred90gt]

> @HonestPlayer said:

> > @ThinkingPlus said:

> > > @dwboston said:

> > > > @HatsForBats said:

> > > > In about 55 rounds this year I haven't had one putt knocked out by the pin. There are some courses I would almost never want the pin in and others where I am fine if it is left in the whole round unless the stick is leaning. IMO it's dependent on the type of stick, speed of greens, how secure the pin sits in the hole and the putting style of the player (die it in the hole verus aggressive speed).

> > > >

> > > > I wonder if the USGA will be considering a change to their Flagstick specifications.

> > >

> > > Agreed. I haven't seen a single putt get deflected by the pin so far this year. I like to have it in on longer putts and downhill putts, but I'm agnostic on shorter putts. Most of the better players at my course seem to prefer it out.

> >

> > In general, based on research to date, better putters with good speed control will want the pin out at all times unless in a situation so difficult that speed cannot be controlled. Poor putters that cannot control speed well, will gain some slight benefit from leaving the pin in. Also if the pins are the floppy fiberglass ones there is more benefit than the stiff metal pins used in windier climes.

>

> Why? If you think that there is no advantage (or disadvantage) to taking the pin out - why waste time doing it if you are so good at putting? (you don't have to be taken literally here - more like a general/plural you). I believe every single player should leave the pin in. Only certain things are in your control in life and golf. Having the pin in is helpful always unless it's a gale force wind blowing the stick towards you (Therefore risking the pin keeping the putt out). It gives you a visual and will stop an over hit long distance putt (hopefully letting you hole it) Any other reasoning is purely mental and superstitions - not based on logic.

 

I disagree with your thought on that. There have been far more putts and chips rejected by the pin that would have gone in (for me and my regular group) than there have been putts that hit the stick and stayed in. Putts that were absolutely not traveling too fast to come out, but not center of the hole, will get kicked out by the stick more often than not. The only time the stick helps is if the ball is traveling fast enough, and dead center of the cup, that it would go completely over the hole were it not there, then the ball will most likely hit the stick and stay closer to the hole than it would without it.

 

This is not my opinion, this is proven. You can find the research if you look for it, it was done by a PhD Engineer I believe.

[chippa13]

If a ball is going fast enough to be "rejected" by the pin then odds are that it wouldn't have dropped had the pin not been there.

[chippa13]

> @Halebopp said:

> > @HonestPlayer said:

> > > @ThinkingPlus said:

> > >

> > > In general, based on research to date, better putters with good speed control will want the pin out at all times unless in a situation so difficult that speed cannot be controlled. Poor putters that cannot control speed well, will gain some slight benefit from leaving the pin in. Also if the pins are the floppy fiberglass ones there is more benefit than the stiff metal pins used in windier climes.

> >

> > Why? If you think that there is no advantage (or disadvantage) to taking the pin out - why waste time doing it if you are so good at putting? (you don't have to be taken literally here - more like a general/plural you). I believe every single player should leave the pin in. Only certain things are in your control in life and golf. Having the pin in is helpful always unless it's a gale force wind blowing the stick towards you (Therefore risking the pin keeping the putt out). It gives you a visual and will stop an over hit long distance putt (hopefully letting you hole it) Any other reasoning is purely mental and superstitions - not based on logic.

>

> Because many people have noted there to be a disadvantage leaving the flagstick in. Personally for me the disadvantage comes in two forms - balls that should be dropping bouncing out and me aiming at the edge of the hole because my mind tells me that's where the hole is, not in the middle of the cup.

 

Why wouldn't you aim at that tall stick? Small targets make small misses.

[Halebopp]

> @chippa13 said:

> > @Halebopp said:

> > > @HonestPlayer said:

> > > > @ThinkingPlus said:

> > > >

> > > > In general, based on research to date, better putters with good speed control will want the pin out at all times unless in a situation so difficult that speed cannot be controlled. Poor putters that cannot control speed well, will gain some slight benefit from leaving the pin in. Also if the pins are the floppy fiberglass ones there is more benefit than the stiff metal pins used in windier climes.

> > >

> > > Why? If you think that there is no advantage (or disadvantage) to taking the pin out - why waste time doing it if you are so good at putting? (you don't have to be taken literally here - more like a general/plural you). I believe every single player should leave the pin in. Only certain things are in your control in life and golf. Having the pin in is helpful always unless it's a gale force wind blowing the stick towards you (Therefore risking the pin keeping the putt out). It gives you a visual and will stop an over hit long distance putt (hopefully letting you hole it) Any other reasoning is purely mental and superstitions - not based on logic.

> >

> > Because many people have noted there to be a disadvantage leaving the flagstick in. Personally for me the disadvantage comes in two forms - balls that should be dropping bouncing out and me aiming at the edge of the hole because my mind tells me that's where the hole is, not in the middle of the cup.

>

> Why wouldn't you aim at that tall stick? Small targets make small misses.

 

Because of hundreds (probably north of a thousand) rounds of golf has taught my mind to aim at the hole in the ground and with the flagstick in the hole, my mind sees a hole in the ground only at the edges. It might also have to do something with the fact it used to be a two-shot penalty if you hit the flagstick and the fact the flagstick is a disadvantage unless you hit it right in the middle.

[dpb5031]

> @chippa13 said:

> > @Halebopp said:

> > > @HonestPlayer said:

> > > > @ThinkingPlus said:

> > > >

> > > > In general, based on research to date, better putters with good speed control will want the pin out at all times unless in a situation so difficult that speed cannot be controlled. Poor putters that cannot control speed well, will gain some slight benefit from leaving the pin in. Also if the pins are the floppy fiberglass ones there is more benefit than the stiff metal pins used in windier climes.

> > >

> > > Why? If you think that there is no advantage (or disadvantage) to taking the pin out - why waste time doing it if you are so good at putting? (you don't have to be taken literally here - more like a general/plural you). I believe every single player should leave the pin in. Only certain things are in your control in life and golf. Having the pin in is helpful always unless it's a gale force wind blowing the stick towards you (Therefore risking the pin keeping the putt out). It gives you a visual and will stop an over hit long distance putt (hopefully letting you hole it) Any other reasoning is purely mental and superstitions - not based on logic.

> >

> > Because many people have noted there to be a disadvantage leaving the flagstick in. Personally for me the disadvantage comes in two forms - balls that should be dropping bouncing out and me aiming at the edge of the hole because my mind tells me that's where the hole is, not in the middle of the cup.

>

> Why wouldn't you aim at that tall stick? Small targets make small misses.

 

Because putts break and it's rare that you should ever be aiming dead center.

[chippa13]

> @dpb5031 said:

> > @chippa13 said:

> > > @Halebopp said:

> > > > @HonestPlayer said:

> > > > > @ThinkingPlus said:

> > > > >

> > > > > In general, based on research to date, better putters with good speed control will want the pin out at all times unless in a situation so difficult that speed cannot be controlled. Poor putters that cannot control speed well, will gain some slight benefit from leaving the pin in. Also if the pins are the floppy fiberglass ones there is more benefit than the stiff metal pins used in windier climes.

> > > >

> > > > Why? If you think that there is no advantage (or disadvantage) to taking the pin out - why waste time doing it if you are so good at putting? (you don't have to be taken literally here - more like a general/plural you). I believe every single player should leave the pin in. Only certain things are in your control in life and golf. Having the pin in is helpful always unless it's a gale force wind blowing the stick towards you (Therefore risking the pin keeping the putt out). It gives you a visual and will stop an over hit long distance putt (hopefully letting you hole it) Any other reasoning is purely mental and superstitions - not based on logic.

> > >

> > > Because many people have noted there to be a disadvantage leaving the flagstick in. Personally for me the disadvantage comes in two forms - balls that should be dropping bouncing out and me aiming at the edge of the hole because my mind tells me that's where the hole is, not in the middle of the cup.

> >

> > Why wouldn't you aim at that tall stick? Small targets make small misses.

>

> Because putts break and it's rare that you should ever be aiming dead center.

 

And you're still trying to get the ball to fall into the center of the cup from the angle that it approaches.

[Newby]

.

[ThinkingPlus]

> @HonestPlayer said:

> > @ThinkingPlus said:

> > > @dwboston said:

> > > > @HatsForBats said:

> > > > In about 55 rounds this year I haven't had one putt knocked out by the pin. There are some courses I would almost never want the pin in and others where I am fine if it is left in the whole round unless the stick is leaning. IMO it's dependent on the type of stick, speed of greens, how secure the pin sits in the hole and the putting style of the player (die it in the hole verus aggressive speed).

> > > >

> > > > I wonder if the USGA will be considering a change to their Flagstick specifications.

> > >

> > > Agreed. I haven't seen a single putt get deflected by the pin so far this year. I like to have it in on longer putts and downhill putts, but I'm agnostic on shorter putts. Most of the better players at my course seem to prefer it out.

> >

> > In general, based on research to date, better putters with good speed control will want the pin out at all times unless in a situation so difficult that speed cannot be controlled. Poor putters that cannot control speed well, will gain some slight benefit from leaving the pin in. Also if the pins are the floppy fiberglass ones there is more benefit than the stiff metal pins used in windier climes.

>

> Why? If you think that there is no advantage (or disadvantage) to taking the pin out - why waste time doing it if you are so good at putting? (you don't have to be taken literally here - more like a general/plural you). I believe every single player should leave the pin in. Only certain things are in your control in life and golf. Having the pin in is helpful always unless it's a gale force wind blowing the stick towards you (Therefore risking the pin keeping the putt out). It gives you a visual and will stop an over hit long distance putt (hopefully letting you hole it) Any other reasoning is purely mental and superstitions - not based on logic.

 

https://www.golfdigest.com/story/edoardo-molinari-conducts-pretty-scientific-puttingflagstick-experiment-and-the-results-may-surprise-you

 

https://www.golfdigest.com/story/putting-with-the-flagstick-in-could-be-a-mistake-new-golf-digest-study-from-cal-poly-professor-shows

 

The 2 studies at the links above are fairly recent with the second one being the most comprehensive I have seen. As you can see there is plenty of evidence to suggest that those with good speed control should be removing the flagstick. Given studies such as these and my own experience playing the game I came to this logical conclusion. Also, while I understand many folks get very spun up about PoP, I don't really care all that much. I would not consider myself either a fast player or slow player, but I am always working hard to shoot the lowest score. Less strokes is my contribution to PoP.

[bladehunter]

> @Halebopp said:

> > @chippa13 said:

> > > @Halebopp said:

> > > > @HonestPlayer said:

> > > > > @ThinkingPlus said:

> > > > >

> > > > > In general, based on research to date, better putters with good speed control will want the pin out at all times unless in a situation so difficult that speed cannot be controlled. Poor putters that cannot control speed well, will gain some slight benefit from leaving the pin in. Also if the pins are the floppy fiberglass ones there is more benefit than the stiff metal pins used in windier climes.

> > > >

> > > > Why? If you think that there is no advantage (or disadvantage) to taking the pin out - why waste time doing it if you are so good at putting? (you don't have to be taken literally here - more like a general/plural you). I believe every single player should leave the pin in. Only certain things are in your control in life and golf. Having the pin in is helpful always unless it's a gale force wind blowing the stick towards you (Therefore risking the pin keeping the putt out). It gives you a visual and will stop an over hit long distance putt (hopefully letting you hole it) Any other reasoning is purely mental and superstitions - not based on logic.

> > >

> > > Because many people have noted there to be a disadvantage leaving the flagstick in. Personally for me the disadvantage comes in two forms - balls that should be dropping bouncing out and me aiming at the edge of the hole because my mind tells me that's where the hole is, not in the middle of the cup.

> >

> > Why wouldn't you aim at that tall stick? Small targets make small misses.

>

> Because of hundreds (probably north of a thousand) rounds of golf has taught my mind to aim at the hole in the ground and with the flagstick in the hole, my mind sees a hole in the ground only at the edges. It might also have to do something with the fact it used to be a two-shot penalty if you hit the flagstick and the fact the flagstick is a disadvantage unless you hit it right in the middle.

 

I am the same. If you leave the pin in I’ll subconsciously try to sneak it in the top corner. Why ? There’s something in the way. Easy answer.

[dpb5031]

> @chippa13 said:

> > @dpb5031 said:

> > > @chippa13 said:

> > > > @Halebopp said:

> > > > > @HonestPlayer said:

> > > > > > @ThinkingPlus said:

> > > > > >

> > > > > > In general, based on research to date, better putters with good speed control will want the pin out at all times unless in a situation so difficult that speed cannot be controlled. Poor putters that cannot control speed well, will gain some slight benefit from leaving the pin in. Also if the pins are the floppy fiberglass ones there is more benefit than the stiff metal pins used in windier climes.

> > > > >

> > > > > Why? If you think that there is no advantage (or disadvantage) to taking the pin out - why waste time doing it if you are so good at putting? (you don't have to be taken literally here - more like a general/plural you). I believe every single player should leave the pin in. Only certain things are in your control in life and golf. Having the pin in is helpful always unless it's a gale force wind blowing the stick towards you (Therefore risking the pin keeping the putt out). It gives you a visual and will stop an over hit long distance putt (hopefully letting you hole it) Any other reasoning is purely mental and superstitions - not based on logic.

> > > >

> > > > Because many people have noted there to be a disadvantage leaving the flagstick in. Personally for me the disadvantage comes in two forms - balls that should be dropping bouncing out and me aiming at the edge of the hole because my mind tells me that's where the hole is, not in the middle of the cup.

> > >

> > > Why wouldn't you aim at that tall stick? Small targets make small misses.

> >

> > Because putts break and it's rare that you should ever be aiming dead center.

>

> And you're still trying to get the ball to fall into the center of the cup from the angle that it approaches.

 

Well, I was responding to the guy who asked "why wouldn't you aim at the tall stick?" Aiming at the stick only works if the putt is dead straight. The angle the ball enters the hole is irrelevant

[chippa13]

> @dpb5031 said:

> > @chippa13 said:

> > > @dpb5031 said:

> > > > @chippa13 said:

> > > > > @Halebopp said:

> > > > > > @HonestPlayer said:

> > > > > > > @ThinkingPlus said:

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > In general, based on research to date, better putters with good speed control will want the pin out at all times unless in a situation so difficult that speed cannot be controlled. Poor putters that cannot control speed well, will gain some slight benefit from leaving the pin in. Also if the pins are the floppy fiberglass ones there is more benefit than the stiff metal pins used in windier climes.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Why? If you think that there is no advantage (or disadvantage) to taking the pin out - why waste time doing it if you are so good at putting? (you don't have to be taken literally here - more like a general/plural you). I believe every single player should leave the pin in. Only certain things are in your control in life and golf. Having the pin in is helpful always unless it's a gale force wind blowing the stick towards you (Therefore risking the pin keeping the putt out). It gives you a visual and will stop an over hit long distance putt (hopefully letting you hole it) Any other reasoning is purely mental and superstitions - not based on logic.

> > > > >

> > > > > Because many people have noted there to be a disadvantage leaving the flagstick in. Personally for me the disadvantage comes in two forms - balls that should be dropping bouncing out and me aiming at the edge of the hole because my mind tells me that's where the hole is, not in the middle of the cup.

> > > >

> > > > Why wouldn't you aim at that tall stick? Small targets make small misses.

> > >

> > > Because putts break and it's rare that you should ever be aiming dead center.

> >

> > And you're still trying to get the ball to fall into the center of the cup from the angle that it approaches.

>

> Well, I was responding to the guy who asked "why wouldn't you aim at the tall stick?" Aiming at the stick only works if the putt is dead straight. The angle the ball enters the hole is irrelevant

 

Thank you, Captain Literal.

[dpb5031]

> @chippa13 said:

> > @dpb5031 said:

> > > @chippa13 said:

> > > > @dpb5031 said:

> > > > > @chippa13 said:

> > > > > > @Halebopp said:

> > > > > > > @HonestPlayer said:

> > > > > > > > @ThinkingPlus said:

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > In general, based on research to date, better putters with good speed control will want the pin out at all times unless in a situation so difficult that speed cannot be controlled. Poor putters that cannot control speed well, will gain some slight benefit from leaving the pin in. Also if the pins are the floppy fiberglass ones there is more benefit than the stiff metal pins used in windier climes.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Why? If you think that there is no advantage (or disadvantage) to taking the pin out - why waste time doing it if you are so good at putting? (you don't have to be taken literally here - more like a general/plural you). I believe every single player should leave the pin in. Only certain things are in your control in life and golf. Having the pin in is helpful always unless it's a gale force wind blowing the stick towards you (Therefore risking the pin keeping the putt out). It gives you a visual and will stop an over hit long distance putt (hopefully letting you hole it) Any other reasoning is purely mental and superstitions - not based on logic.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Because many people have noted there to be a disadvantage leaving the flagstick in. Personally for me the disadvantage comes in two forms - balls that should be dropping bouncing out and me aiming at the edge of the hole because my mind tells me that's where the hole is, not in the middle of the cup.

> > > > >

> > > > > Why wouldn't you aim at that tall stick? Small targets make small misses.

> > > >

> > > > Because putts break and it's rare that you should ever be aiming dead center.

> > >

> > > And you're still trying to get the ball to fall into the center of the cup from the angle that it approaches.

> >

> > Well, I was responding to the guy who asked "why wouldn't you aim at the tall stick?" Aiming at the stick only works if the putt is dead straight. The angle the ball enters the hole is irrelevant

>

> Thank you, Captain Literal.

 

You're welcome!...Lol ?

[Mr. Bean]

> @bladehunter said:

> > @HonestPlayer said:

> > > @ThinkingPlus said:

> > > > @dwboston said:

> > > > > @HatsForBats said:

> > > > > In about 55 rounds this year I haven't had one putt knocked out by the pin. There are some courses I would almost never want the pin in and others where I am fine if it is left in the whole round unless the stick is leaning. IMO it's dependent on the type of stick, speed of greens, how secure the pin sits in the hole and the putting style of the player (die it in the hole verus aggressive speed).

> > > > >

> > > > > I wonder if the USGA will be considering a change to their Flagstick specifications.

> > > >

> > > > Agreed. I haven't seen a single putt get deflected by the pin so far this year. I like to have it in on longer putts and downhill putts, but I'm agnostic on shorter putts. Most of the better players at my course seem to prefer it out.

> > >

> > > In general, based on research to date, better putters with good speed control will want the pin out at all times unless in a situation so difficult that speed cannot be controlled. Poor putters that cannot control speed well, will gain some slight benefit from leaving the pin in. Also if the pins are the floppy fiberglass ones there is more benefit than the stiff metal pins used in windier climes.

> >

> > Why? If you think that there is no advantage (or disadvantage) to taking the pin out - why waste time doing it if you are so good at putting? (you don't have to be taken literally here - more like a general/plural you). I believe every single player should leave the pin in. Only certain things are in your control in life and golf. Having the pin in is helpful always unless it's a gale force wind blowing the stick towards you (Therefore risking the pin keeping the putt out). It gives you a visual and will stop an over hit long distance putt (hopefully letting you hole it) Any other reasoning is purely mental and superstitions - not based on logic.

>

> Completely disagree. If you hit the hole constantly with correct speed. The pin is just taking up space that the ball could occupy. I have an artificial puttin green at home. And a standard style fiberglass pin . I’ve done my own experiment. And you can absolutely see it spit putts out after a certain speed. Run them in the center at that speed and more than 75% pop up and down in to the hole. And this speed is way to fast to be called correct. So bottom line is. Work on your speed. The pin is just a bandaid bad putters ( I’m a reformed one ) use to help aim. The rule should be reversed. People using it to aim with are in fact gaining a crutch to lean on.

 

You are absolutely correct. One should putt at correct speed. So... what is new..?

[nsxguy]

> @bladehunter said:

> > @HonestPlayer said:

> > > @ThinkingPlus said:

> > > > @dwboston said:

> > > > > @HatsForBats said:

> > > > > In about 55 rounds this year I haven't had one putt knocked out by the pin. There are some courses I would almost never want the pin in and others where I am fine if it is left in the whole round unless the stick is leaning. IMO it's dependent on the type of stick, speed of greens, how secure the pin sits in the hole and the putting style of the player (die it in the hole verus aggressive speed).

> > > > >

> > > > > I wonder if the USGA will be considering a change to their Flagstick specifications.

> > > >

> > > > Agreed. I haven't seen a single putt get deflected by the pin so far this year. I like to have it in on longer putts and downhill putts, but I'm agnostic on shorter putts. Most of the better players at my course seem to prefer it out.

> > >

> > > In general, based on research to date, better putters with good speed control will want the pin out at all times unless in a situation so difficult that speed cannot be controlled. Poor putters that cannot control speed well, will gain some slight benefit from leaving the pin in. Also if the pins are the floppy fiberglass ones there is more benefit than the stiff metal pins used in windier climes.

> >

> > Why? If you think that there is no advantage (or disadvantage) to taking the pin out - why waste time doing it if you are so good at putting? (you don't have to be taken literally here - more like a general/plural you). I believe every single player should leave the pin in. Only certain things are in your control in life and golf. Having the pin in is helpful always unless it's a gale force wind blowing the stick towards you (Therefore risking the pin keeping the putt out). It gives you a visual and will stop an over hit long distance putt (hopefully letting you hole it) Any other reasoning is purely mental and superstitions - not based on logic.

>

> Completely disagree. If you hit the hole constantly with correct speed. The pin is just taking up space that the ball could occupy. I have an artificial puttin green at home. And a standard style fiberglass pin . I’ve done my own experiment. And you can absolutely see it spit putts out after a certain speed. Run them in the center at that speed and more than 75% pop up and down in to the hole. And this speed is way to fast to be called correct. So bottom line is. Work on your speed. The pin is just a bandaid bad putters ( I’m a reformed one ) use to help aim. The rule should be reversed. People using it to aim with are in fact gaining a crutch to lean on.

 

My friend, sometimes you just don't make any sense.

 

Why should it be reversed ? You have a choice. You don't have to putt with it in. So you don't.

 

And if you think it's a disadvantage why wouldn't you want your opponent(s) TO leave it in ? LOL

[bladehunter]

> @nsxguy said:

> > @bladehunter said:

> > > @HonestPlayer said:

> > > > @ThinkingPlus said:

> > > > > @dwboston said:

> > > > > > @HatsForBats said:

> > > > > > In about 55 rounds this year I haven't had one putt knocked out by the pin. There are some courses I would almost never want the pin in and others where I am fine if it is left in the whole round unless the stick is leaning. IMO it's dependent on the type of stick, speed of greens, how secure the pin sits in the hole and the putting style of the player (die it in the hole verus aggressive speed).

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I wonder if the USGA will be considering a change to their Flagstick specifications.

> > > > >

> > > > > Agreed. I haven't seen a single putt get deflected by the pin so far this year. I like to have it in on longer putts and downhill putts, but I'm agnostic on shorter putts. Most of the better players at my course seem to prefer it out.

> > > >

> > > > In general, based on research to date, better putters with good speed control will want the pin out at all times unless in a situation so difficult that speed cannot be controlled. Poor putters that cannot control speed well, will gain some slight benefit from leaving the pin in. Also if the pins are the floppy fiberglass ones there is more benefit than the stiff metal pins used in windier climes.

> > >

> > > Why? If you think that there is no advantage (or disadvantage) to taking the pin out - why waste time doing it if you are so good at putting? (you don't have to be taken literally here - more like a general/plural you). I believe every single player should leave the pin in. Only certain things are in your control in life and golf. Having the pin in is helpful always unless it's a gale force wind blowing the stick towards you (Therefore risking the pin keeping the putt out). It gives you a visual and will stop an over hit long distance putt (hopefully letting you hole it) Any other reasoning is purely mental and superstitions - not based on logic.

> >

> > Completely disagree. If you hit the hole constantly with correct speed. The pin is just taking up space that the ball could occupy. I have an artificial puttin green at home. And a standard style fiberglass pin . I’ve done my own experiment. And you can absolutely see it spit putts out after a certain speed. Run them in the center at that speed and more than 75% pop up and down in to the hole. And this speed is way to fast to be called correct. So bottom line is. Work on your speed. The pin is just a bandaid bad putters ( I’m a reformed one ) use to help aim. The rule should be reversed. People using it to aim with are in fact gaining a crutch to lean on.

>

> My friend, sometimes you just don't make any sense.

>

> Why should it be reversed ? You have a choice. You don't have to putt with it in. So you don't.

>

> And if you think it's a disadvantage why wouldn't you want your opponent(s) TO leave it in ? LOL

 

RIF.

 

I said that it only helps the guy who uses the stick to help him aim. For some reason plenty of people say it helps them just as I think it hurts my aim. I suspect those people are ramming it into the hole. And miss a lot of putts before with power lip outs etc. it maybe a good placebo for those people. And it may actually backstop a few of their putts. ( May).

 

I agree mostly that it can stay since the choice is there. I said that because I am in fact against most of the new helping rules. I don’t like pin in putting , don’t care for being able to landscape in a hazard or ground your club , and don’t like that cheaters can just pick up their ball unsupervised to “ identify “ it and tee up their lies. So I said that in general. As I generally would like to see several things reversed. But hey. That’s just me. So long as the pin inners remember there is a choice then the choice can work too.

[nsxguy]

> @bladehunter said:

> > @nsxguy said:

> > > @bladehunter said:

> > > > @HonestPlayer said:

> > > > > @ThinkingPlus said:

> > > > > > @dwboston said:

> > > > > > > @HatsForBats said:

> > > > > > > In about 55 rounds this year I haven't had one putt knocked out by the pin. There are some courses I would almost never want the pin in and others where I am fine if it is left in the whole round unless the stick is leaning. IMO it's dependent on the type of stick, speed of greens, how secure the pin sits in the hole and the putting style of the player (die it in the hole verus aggressive speed).

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > I wonder if the USGA will be considering a change to their Flagstick specifications.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Agreed. I haven't seen a single putt get deflected by the pin so far this year. I like to have it in on longer putts and downhill putts, but I'm agnostic on shorter putts. Most of the better players at my course seem to prefer it out.

> > > > >

> > > > > In general, based on research to date, better putters with good speed control will want the pin out at all times unless in a situation so difficult that speed cannot be controlled. Poor putters that cannot control speed well, will gain some slight benefit from leaving the pin in. Also if the pins are the floppy fiberglass ones there is more benefit than the stiff metal pins used in windier climes.

> > > >

> > > > Why? If you think that there is no advantage (or disadvantage) to taking the pin out - why waste time doing it if you are so good at putting? (you don't have to be taken literally here - more like a general/plural you). I believe every single player should leave the pin in. Only certain things are in your control in life and golf. Having the pin in is helpful always unless it's a gale force wind blowing the stick towards you (Therefore risking the pin keeping the putt out). It gives you a visual and will stop an over hit long distance putt (hopefully letting you hole it) Any other reasoning is purely mental and superstitions - not based on logic.

> > >

> > > Completely disagree. If you hit the hole constantly with correct speed. The pin is just taking up space that the ball could occupy. I have an artificial puttin green at home. And a standard style fiberglass pin . I’ve done my own experiment. And you can absolutely see it spit putts out after a certain speed. Run them in the center at that speed and more than 75% pop up and down in to the hole. And this speed is way to fast to be called correct. So bottom line is. Work on your speed. The pin is just a bandaid bad putters ( I’m a reformed one ) use to help aim. The rule should be reversed. People using it to aim with are in fact gaining a crutch to lean on.

> >

> > My friend, sometimes you just don't make any sense.

> >

> > Why should it be reversed ? You have a choice. You don't have to putt with it in. So you don't.

> >

> > And if you think it's a disadvantage why wouldn't you want your opponent(s) TO leave it in ? LOL

>

> RIF.

>

> I said that it only helps the guy who uses the stick to help him aim. For some reason plenty of people say it helps them just as I think it hurts my aim. I suspect those people are ramming it into the hole. And miss a lot of putts before with power lip outs etc. it maybe a good placebo for those people. And it may actually backstop a few of their putts. ( May).

>

> I agree mostly that it can stay since the choice is there. I said that because I am in fact against most of the new helping rules. I don’t like pin in putting , don’t care for being able to landscape in a hazard or ground your club , and don’t like that cheaters can just pick up their ball unsupervised to “ identify “ it and tee up their lies. So I said that in general. As I generally would like to see several things reversed. But hey. That’s just me. So long as the pin inners remember there is a choice then the choice can work too.

 

Yes, reading IS fundamental. Too bad answering someone's question isn't. LOL

[bladehunter]

> @nsxguy said:

> > @bladehunter said:

> > > @nsxguy said:

> > > > @bladehunter said:

> > > > > @HonestPlayer said:

> > > > > > @ThinkingPlus said:

> > > > > > > @dwboston said:

> > > > > > > > @HatsForBats said:

> > > > > > > > In about 55 rounds this year I haven't had one putt knocked out by the pin. There are some courses I would almost never want the pin in and others where I am fine if it is left in the whole round unless the stick is leaning. IMO it's dependent on the type of stick, speed of greens, how secure the pin sits in the hole and the putting style of the player (die it in the hole verus aggressive speed).

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > I wonder if the USGA will be considering a change to their Flagstick specifications.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Agreed. I haven't seen a single putt get deflected by the pin so far this year. I like to have it in on longer putts and downhill putts, but I'm agnostic on shorter putts. Most of the better players at my course seem to prefer it out.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > In general, based on research to date, better putters with good speed control will want the pin out at all times unless in a situation so difficult that speed cannot be controlled. Poor putters that cannot control speed well, will gain some slight benefit from leaving the pin in. Also if the pins are the floppy fiberglass ones there is more benefit than the stiff metal pins used in windier climes.

> > > > >

> > > > > Why? If you think that there is no advantage (or disadvantage) to taking the pin out - why waste time doing it if you are so good at putting? (you don't have to be taken literally here - more like a general/plural you). I believe every single player should leave the pin in. Only certain things are in your control in life and golf. Having the pin in is helpful always unless it's a gale force wind blowing the stick towards you (Therefore risking the pin keeping the putt out). It gives you a visual and will stop an over hit long distance putt (hopefully letting you hole it) Any other reasoning is purely mental and superstitions - not based on logic.

> > > >

> > > > Completely disagree. If you hit the hole constantly with correct speed. The pin is just taking up space that the ball could occupy. I have an artificial puttin green at home. And a standard style fiberglass pin . I’ve done my own experiment. And you can absolutely see it spit putts out after a certain speed. Run them in the center at that speed and more than 75% pop up and down in to the hole. And this speed is way to fast to be called correct. So bottom line is. Work on your speed. The pin is just a bandaid bad putters ( I’m a reformed one ) use to help aim. The rule should be reversed. People using it to aim with are in fact gaining a crutch to lean on.

> > >

> > > My friend, sometimes you just don't make any sense.

> > >

> > > Why should it be reversed ? You have a choice. You don't have to putt with it in. So you don't.

> > >

> > > And if you think it's a disadvantage why wouldn't you want your opponent(s) TO leave it in ? LOL

> >

> > RIF.

> >

> > I said that it only helps the guy who uses the stick to help him aim. For some reason plenty of people say it helps them just as I think it hurts my aim. I suspect those people are ramming it into the hole. And miss a lot of putts before with power lip outs etc. it maybe a good placebo for those people. And it may actually backstop a few of their putts. ( May).

> >

> > I agree mostly that it can stay since the choice is there. I said that because I am in fact against most of the new helping rules. I don’t like pin in putting , don’t care for being able to landscape in a hazard or ground your club , and don’t like that cheaters can just pick up their ball unsupervised to “ identify “ it and tee up their lies. So I said that in general. As I generally would like to see several things reversed. But hey. That’s just me. So long as the pin inners remember there is a choice then the choice can work too.

>

> Yes, reading IS fundamental. Too bad answering someone's question isn't. LOL

 

Lol. In pretty sure I did. In run on , fragmented sentences with way too much info. !!

[Edward_Majorwin]

> @bladehunter said:

> and don’t like that cheaters can just pick up their ball unsupervised to “ identify “ it and tee up their lies.

I didn't even know this was a common thing until it happened right in front of me a few weeks ago. Dude saw me looking at him so he offered up "yep, that's mine" and put it down all fluffy from a previous tough lie. I looked away and tried to find the 10 other golfers in our group who had just tee'd off...you know, thereby making such an action slightly justifiable, but alas there were only four of us in the group - we had somehow managed to find our balls using just our eyes.

 

Back on topic I now proceed...thought I'd be putting with pin in all year but have now reverted to removing it for anything inside 15 feet. Nobody I play with can putt worth a darn anyway so everyone agrees with leave it for lags and yank for the deuce attempt.

[nsxguy]

> @bladehunter said:

> > @nsxguy said:

> > > @bladehunter said:

> > > > @nsxguy said:

> > > > > @bladehunter said:

> > > > > > @HonestPlayer said:

> > > > > > > @ThinkingPlus said:

> > > > > > > > @dwboston said:

> > > > > > > > > @HatsForBats said:

> > > > > > > > > In about 55 rounds this year I haven't had one putt knocked out by the pin. There are some courses I would almost never want the pin in and others where I am fine if it is left in the whole round unless the stick is leaning. IMO it's dependent on the type of stick, speed of greens, how secure the pin sits in the hole and the putting style of the player (die it in the hole verus aggressive speed).

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > I wonder if the USGA will be considering a change to their Flagstick specifications.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Agreed. I haven't seen a single putt get deflected by the pin so far this year. I like to have it in on longer putts and downhill putts, but I'm agnostic on shorter putts. Most of the better players at my course seem to prefer it out.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > In general, based on research to date, better putters with good speed control will want the pin out at all times unless in a situation so difficult that speed cannot be controlled. Poor putters that cannot control speed well, will gain some slight benefit from leaving the pin in. Also if the pins are the floppy fiberglass ones there is more benefit than the stiff metal pins used in windier climes.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Why? If you think that there is no advantage (or disadvantage) to taking the pin out - why waste time doing it if you are so good at putting? (you don't have to be taken literally here - more like a general/plural you). I believe every single player should leave the pin in. Only certain things are in your control in life and golf. Having the pin in is helpful always unless it's a gale force wind blowing the stick towards you (Therefore risking the pin keeping the putt out). It gives you a visual and will stop an over hit long distance putt (hopefully letting you hole it) Any other reasoning is purely mental and superstitions - not based on logic.

> > > > >

> > > > > Completely disagree. If you hit the hole constantly with correct speed. The pin is just taking up space that the ball could occupy. I have an artificial puttin green at home. And a standard style fiberglass pin . I’ve done my own experiment. And you can absolutely see it spit putts out after a certain speed. Run them in the center at that speed and more than 75% pop up and down in to the hole. And this speed is way to fast to be called correct. So bottom line is. Work on your speed. The pin is just a bandaid bad putters ( I’m a reformed one ) use to help aim. The rule should be reversed. People using it to aim with are in fact gaining a crutch to lean on.

> > > >

> > > > My friend, sometimes you just don't make any sense.

> > > >

> > > > Why should it be reversed ? You have a choice. You don't have to putt with it in. So you don't.

> > > >

> > > > And if you think it's a disadvantage why wouldn't you want your opponent(s) TO leave it in ? LOL

> > >

> > > RIF.

> > >

> > > I said that it only helps the guy who uses the stick to help him aim. For some reason plenty of people say it helps them just as I think it hurts my aim. I suspect those people are ramming it into the hole. And miss a lot of putts before with power lip outs etc. it maybe a good placebo for those people. And it may actually backstop a few of their putts. ( May).

> > >

> > > I agree mostly that it can stay since the choice is there. I said that because I am in fact against most of the new helping rules. I don’t like pin in putting , don’t care for being able to landscape in a hazard or ground your club , and don’t like that cheaters can just pick up their ball unsupervised to “ identify “ it and tee up their lies. So I said that in general. As I generally would like to see several things reversed. But hey. That’s just me. So long as the pin inners remember there is a choice then the choice can work too.

> >

> > Yes, reading IS fundamental. Too bad answering someone's question isn't. LOL

>

> Lol. In pretty sure I did. In run on , fragmented sentences with way too much info. !!

 

Your A.D.D. must be catching.

 

I asked you 2 questions _"Why should it be reversed ?" You have a choice. You don't have to putt with it in. So you don't.

 

"And if you think it's a disadvantage why wouldn't you want your opponent(s) TO leave it in ?"_ LOL

 

Apologies if I missed your answer(s).

[longballjs]

Funny most of my life anytime a tour pro wanted to hole a chip, they took the flag out, now we are all supposed to think it's an advantage to leave it in

[Augster]

That cal-poly research was the biggest eye-opener. It supported everything I had been seeing on the course.

 

If you are a putter that dies it into the hole, you’ll never notice the stick being a problem. But if you play enough match play and play enough skins, short isn’t an option. You’ll want to flay yourself if you start leaving putts short and losing holes and money on skins. So for most of my golf, and others I play with, the correct speed is at the hole or more. Ideally 18 inches by. So the flag will have a chance to wreak havoc on nearly every putt I take throughout a season. And it has.

 

 

[Newby]

> @longballjs said:

> Funny most of my life anytime a tour pro wanted to hole a chip, they took the flag out, now we are all supposed to think it's an advantage to leave it in

And yet in 2007

https://www.golf.com/instruction/flag-or-out

 

[I_HATE_SNOW]

> @Newby said:

> > @longballjs said:

> > Funny most of my life anytime a tour pro wanted to hole a chip, they took the flag out, now we are all supposed to think it's an advantage to leave it in

> And yet in 2007

> https://www.golf.com/instruction/flag-or-out

>

 

Good find!

[HitEmTrue]

> @I_HATE_SNOW said:

> > @Newby said:

> > > @longballjs said:

> > > Funny most of my life anytime a tour pro wanted to hole a chip, they took the flag out, now we are all supposed to think it's an advantage to leave it in

> > And yet in 2007

> > https://www.golf.com/instruction/flag-or-out

> >

>

> Good find!

 

That test was for chipping...with faster ball speeds than on putts made with proper speed. So it does help if you hit it too hard. ?

[I_HATE_SNOW]

> @HitEmTrue said:

> > @I_HATE_SNOW said:

> > > @Newby said:

> > > > @longballjs said:

> > > > Funny most of my life anytime a tour pro wanted to hole a chip, they took the flag out, now we are all supposed to think it's an advantage to leave it in

> > > And yet in 2007

> > > https://www.golf.com/instruction/flag-or-out

> > >

> >

> > Good find!

>

> That test was for chipping...with faster ball speeds than on putts made with proper speed. So it does help if you hit it too hard. ?

 

Try reading the article before posting.

[HitEmTrue]

> @I_HATE_SNOW said:

> > @HitEmTrue said:

> > > @I_HATE_SNOW said:

> > > > @Newby said:

> > > > > @longballjs said:

> > > > > Funny most of my life anytime a tour pro wanted to hole a chip, they took the flag out, now we are all supposed to think it's an advantage to leave it in

> > > > And yet in 2007

> > > > https://www.golf.com/instruction/flag-or-out

> > > >

> > >

> > > Good find!

> >

> > That test was for chipping...with faster ball speeds than on putts made with proper speed. So it does help if you hit it too hard. ?

>

> Try reading the article before posting.

 

"A few years ago, I was asked by GOLF MAGAZINE to answer an age-old question: **When chipping**, should you leave the flagstick in the hole or pull it out? I conducted a test and was surprised by the results."

 

"On a perfectly flat green, the speeds were fast enough to send the ball three feet past the hole, **six feet past, and nine feet past.**"

 

That is an old test, for chipping.

 

There have been tests performed this year at slower speeds that are getting different results than Pelz's test. Some showing better to leave it in, and others saying better to take it out at slower speeds.

 

 

 

 

[dwboston]

> @HitEmTrue said:

> > @I_HATE_SNOW said:

> > > @HitEmTrue said:

> > > > @I_HATE_SNOW said:

> > > > > @Newby said:

> > > > > > @longballjs said:

> > > > > > Funny most of my life anytime a tour pro wanted to hole a chip, they took the flag out, now we are all supposed to think it's an advantage to leave it in

> > > > > And yet in 2007

> > > > > https://www.golf.com/instruction/flag-or-out

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > Good find!

> > >

> > > That test was for chipping...with faster ball speeds than on putts made with proper speed. So it does help if you hit it too hard. ?

> >

> > Try reading the article before posting.

>

> "A few years ago, I was asked by GOLF MAGAZINE to answer an age-old question: **When chipping**, should you leave the flagstick in the hole or pull it out? I conducted a test and was surprised by the results."

>

> "On a perfectly flat green, the speeds were fast enough to send the ball three feet past the hole, **six feet past, and nine feet past.**"

>

> That is an old test, for chipping.

>

> There have been tests performed this year at slower speeds that are getting different results than Pelz's test. Some showing better to leave it in, and others saying better to take it out at slower speeds.

>

>

>

>

 

Read closer....

"It was impractical to hit shots from the fringe, fairway, or rough because no human (not even Perfy, my putting/chipping robot) could hit the flagstick often enough or accurately enough to run the test in a reasonable amount of time. **However, by precisely rolling balls on a green from a short distance**, I could measure how the flagstick affected the results. To guarantee measurable, reliable results, **I used a putting machine called the “TruRoller,” which I invented to roll balls precisely controlled directions at carefully controlled speeds**.

 

He couldn't test chipping in a practical way, so he tested rolling the ball on the green with a putting machine, i.e. putting.

[HitEmTrue]

> @dwboston said:

> Read closer....

> "It was impractical to hit shots from the fringe, fairway, or rough because no human (not even Perfy, my putting/chipping robot) could hit the flagstick often enough or accurately enough to run the test in a reasonable amount of time. **However, by precisely rolling balls on a green from a short distance**, I could measure how the flagstick affected the results. To guarantee measurable, reliable results, **I used a putting machine called the “TruRoller,” which I invented to roll balls precisely controlled directions at carefully controlled speeds**.

 

It doesn't matter how close the ball was to the hole when it began its journey. It is the speed of the ball when it hits the hole/stick that matters. They were using faster speeds in the test, to mimic a chip.

 

[I_HATE_SNOW]

> @HitEmTrue said:

> > @dwboston said:

> > Read closer....

> > "It was impractical to hit shots from the fringe, fairway, or rough because no human (not even Perfy, my putting/chipping robot) could hit the flagstick often enough or accurately enough to run the test in a reasonable amount of time. **However, by precisely rolling balls on a green from a short distance**, I could measure how the flagstick affected the results. To guarantee measurable, reliable results, **I used a putting machine called the “TruRoller,” which I invented to roll balls precisely controlled directions at carefully controlled speeds**.

>

> It doesn't matter how close the ball was to the hole when it began its journey. It is the speed of the ball when it hits the hole/stick that matters. They were using faster speeds in the test, to mimic a chip.

>

 

Each test was run at three different speeds: On a perfectly flat green, the speeds were fast enough to send the ball three feet past the hole, six feet past, and nine feet past. Each test also included putts that approached the target at different parts of the hole: dead center; left- and right-center of the pin; left and right edge of the pin. Finally, the tests were run, first on level greens, then on ones that sloped sharply uphill and downhill. (The speeds remained consistent, but because the slope changed, the balls, if they missed, would finish considerably farther away on downhill putts and closer on uphillers. But it is the speed, not the final distance from the hole, that matters.)

Is this faster speeds?