I hate the "Leaving the flag in" rule

[hybrid25]

> @RJ_MJ_JJ said:

> > @HatsForBats said:

> >

> > I would rather they relax the rules on flag sticks and/or even increase the size of the hole slightly **gasp** rather than go back to flag stick out when on the green.

> **GASP**, indeed!!

>

 

Never, never happen, not even a consideration.

[hybrid25]

> @BermBuster said:

> I like to leave the pin in. It keeps my brother from raking his ball out with his putter.

 

When he rakes the ball out does he have the putter in one hand and his beer in the other? Or does he put the beer can in his cargo shorts?

[Roadking2003]

> @zdobson71 said:

> I still take it out for some short chips. Just can’t get used to looking at it!

 

So, when you are on the practice green, do you remove all of the little flags?

[PappyVanWinkle53]

Triple entry....computer issues....sorry y'all

[PappyVanWinkle53]

Triple entry....computer issues....sorry y'all

[PappyVanWinkle53]

Triple entry....computer issues....sorry y'all

 

[PappyVanWinkle53]

> @dpb5031 said:

> > @Newby said:

> > > @dpb5031 said:

> > > > @Imp said:

> > > > In the 30+ rounds I've played this year, haven't seen a deflection yet. I'm of the "if it hits a pin and goes out, your speed was wrong and would have lipped out anyways" camp.

> > > >

> > > > --kC

> > > Thing is, it's simply not true. There are studies clearly demonstrating putts striking the pin slightly off center and the ball being deflected with regularity. This was tested at multiple speeds. The exact same putts (same speed/same break) absolutely did drop with significantly higher frequency when the pin was out. It's not even really questionable at this point. Only putts rolling dramatically too fast were helped.

> > Thing is, it may well be true. The six or seven studies I have seen clearly demonstrate that the tests are not exactly the same.

> > There is no definitive answer. There are as many on one side of the fence as the other or they are sitting on the fence.

> > It boils down to what you believe.

> > But empirical evidence seems to be showing that there is significant time saving.

> >

> Disagree. It's not subjective. The earlier touted studies were significantly flawed. Several only measured dead center strikes with thin fiberglass flagsticks or balls rolling 100 mph. Those I'm speaking of measured center and off-center pin strikes as well as straight and breaking putts, plus had data points for putts rolling at several different speeds. They also sampled flagsticks of various size and materials.

>

> In terms of pace of play, it only really helps pace if everyone agrees to leave it in, and can actually add time if you're pulling it and replacing it for each player. I've played over 75 rounds this year, and save for a brief experiment in leaving it in when the rule first changed, I've yet to encounter unanimity on the issue amongst a foursome. The exception being state and local tournament rounds where the consensus was PIN OUT except for very long putts or severely fast/sloping putts where speed was less controllable.

>

> IMO slow players always figure out a way to be slow and pin in or out isn't going to make a substantial difference even if everyone did leave it in.

>

 

I'm not disputing you or advocating for one side or another, as I'm still on the fence with this one......but it seems that a pretty well-respected short game guy says to leave the pin in for putting:

https://www.golf.com/Instruction/2019/01/02/dave-plez-putt-with-the-flagstick-in-rule-change-2018

His testing was from 1990.....sure, golf balls have changed a bit since then, but physics hasn't.

 

That being said, my preference at this point is to remove the flag while putting......unless its a putt greater than 25 feet.....it just seems more likely that a speedy short putt (that would have otherwise gone in) could be deflected from going into the hole than the same putt hitting the center of the pin and dropping in the hole.

 

[Newby]

Whichever view is being taken, the expressions 'I think, I feel, it seems, IMO' seem to be winning the argument.

[North Butte]

We're discussing this on a forum where a large proportion believe they can't play their best golf without a scientific optimization of every club in the bag using high tech launch monitors and precise blueprinting of every specification. I guess it's no surprise there is also a large proportion who are fascinated with having someone analyze pulling the flagstick out of the hole or not in every conceivable situation, in order to optimize their putting to the nearest hundredth of a stroke per round.

[HitEmTrue]

> @"Crazy About Golf" said:

> > @dpb5031 said:

> > Disagree. It's not subjective. The earlier touted studies were significantly flawed. Several only measured dead center strikes with thin fiberglass flagsticks or balls rolling 100 mph. Those I'm speaking of measured center and off-center pin strikes as well as straight and breaking putts, plus had data points for putts rolling at several different speeds. They also sampled flagsticks of various size and materials.

> >

> > In terms of pace of play, it only really helps pace if everyone agrees to leave it in, and can actually add time if you're pulling it and replacing it for each player. I've played over 75 rounds this year, and save for a brief experiment in leaving it in when the rule first changed, I've yet to encounter unanimity on the issue amongst a foursome. The exception being state and local tournament rounds where the consensus was PIN OUT except for very long putts or severely fast/sloping putts where speed was less controllable.

> >

> > IMO slow players always figure out a way to be slow and pin in or out isn't going to make a substantial difference even if everyone did leave it in.

> >

>

> I'm not disputing you or advocating for one side or another, as I'm still on the fence with this one......but it seems that a pretty well-respected short game guy says to leave the pin in for putting:

> https://www.golf.com/Instruction/2019/01/02/dave-plez-putt-with-the-flagstick-in-rule-change-2018

> His testing was from 1990.....sure, golf balls have changed a bit since then, but physics hasn't.

>

In those tests, he was using fast speeds...speeds that would more likely occur when chipping the ball (more variance in distance control), than speeds that would typically happen when putting. Especially faster than the speeds are when putting from closer distances.

 

 

[North Butte]

Technology has changed but it's still true that when putts are left short, they almost never go in.

[PappyVanWinkle53]

 

> @HitEmTrue said:

> > @"Crazy About Golf" said:

> > > @dpb5031 said:

> > > Disagree. It's not subjective. The earlier touted studies were significantly flawed. Several only measured dead center strikes with thin fiberglass flagsticks or balls rolling 100 mph. Those I'm speaking of measured center and off-center pin strikes as well as straight and breaking putts, plus had data points for putts rolling at several different speeds. They also sampled flagsticks of various size and materials.

> > >

> > > In terms of pace of play, it only really helps pace if everyone agrees to leave it in, and can actually add time if you're pulling it and replacing it for each player. I've played over 75 rounds this year, and save for a brief experiment in leaving it in when the rule first changed, I've yet to encounter unanimity on the issue amongst a foursome. The exception being state and local tournament rounds where the consensus was PIN OUT except for very long putts or severely fast/sloping putts where speed was less controllable.

> > >

> > > IMO slow players always figure out a way to be slow and pin in or out isn't going to make a substantial difference even if everyone did leave it in.

> > >

> >

> > I'm not disputing you or advocating for one side or another, as I'm still on the fence with this one......but it seems that a pretty well-respected short game guy says to leave the pin in for putting:

> > https://www.golf.com/Instruction/2019/01/02/dave-plez-putt-with-the-flagstick-in-rule-change-2018

> > His testing was from 1990.....sure, golf balls have changed a bit since then, but physics hasn't.

> >

> In those tests, he was using fast speeds...speeds that would more likely occur when chipping the ball (more variance in distance control), than speeds that would typically happen when putting. Especially faster than the speeds are when putting from closer distances.

>

>

 

How do you know that???? Or did you just make that up? According to the article:

"The testing was performed with a special putting device built to roll putts accurately aimed with a laser—and a true, pure roll—from two feet away. We rolled putts at different speeds hitting different parts of the pin on flat, uphill and downhill sloping greens. The test results were conclusive: You will hole a higher percentage of putts when you leave the flagstick in."

 

These are Pelz's words, not mine.

[Halebopp]

> @"Crazy About Golf" said:

>

> > @HitEmTrue said:

> > > @"Crazy About Golf" said:

> > > > @dpb5031 said:

> > > > Disagree. It's not subjective. The earlier touted studies were significantly flawed. Several only measured dead center strikes with thin fiberglass flagsticks or balls rolling 100 mph. Those I'm speaking of measured center and off-center pin strikes as well as straight and breaking putts, plus had data points for putts rolling at several different speeds. They also sampled flagsticks of various size and materials.

> > > >

> > > > In terms of pace of play, it only really helps pace if everyone agrees to leave it in, and can actually add time if you're pulling it and replacing it for each player. I've played over 75 rounds this year, and save for a brief experiment in leaving it in when the rule first changed, I've yet to encounter unanimity on the issue amongst a foursome. The exception being state and local tournament rounds where the consensus was PIN OUT except for very long putts or severely fast/sloping putts where speed was less controllable.

> > > >

> > > > IMO slow players always figure out a way to be slow and pin in or out isn't going to make a substantial difference even if everyone did leave it in.

> > > >

> > >

> > > I'm not disputing you or advocating for one side or another, as I'm still on the fence with this one......but it seems that a pretty well-respected short game guy says to leave the pin in for putting:

> > > https://www.golf.com/Instruction/2019/01/02/dave-plez-putt-with-the-flagstick-in-rule-change-2018

> > > His testing was from 1990.....sure, golf balls have changed a bit since then, but physics hasn't.

> > >

> > In those tests, he was using fast speeds...speeds that would more likely occur when chipping the ball (more variance in distance control), than speeds that would typically happen when putting. Especially faster than the speeds are when putting from closer distances.

> >

> >

>

> How do you know that???? Or did you just make that up? According to the article:

> "The testing was performed with a special putting device built to roll putts accurately aimed with a laser—and a true, pure roll—from two feet away. We rolled putts at different speeds hitting different parts of the pin on flat, uphill and downhill sloping greens. The test results were conclusive: You will hole a higher percentage of putts when you leave the flagstick in."

>

> These are Pelz's words, not mine.

 

It has been discussed in the tens of threads covering this subject ever since the new rules were published.

 

Here's one source, the man himself:

 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.golf.com/instruction/flag-or-out/amp/

[dpb5031]

> @Halebopp said:

> > @"Crazy About Golf" said:

> >

> > > @HitEmTrue said:

> > > > @"Crazy About Golf" said:

> > > > > @dpb5031 said:

> > > > > Disagree. It's not subjective. The earlier touted studies were significantly flawed. Several only measured dead center strikes with thin fiberglass flagsticks or balls rolling 100 mph. Those I'm speaking of measured center and off-center pin strikes as well as straight and breaking putts, plus had data points for putts rolling at several different speeds. They also sampled flagsticks of various size and materials.

> > > > >

> > > > > In terms of pace of play, it only really helps pace if everyone agrees to leave it in, and can actually add time if you're pulling it and replacing it for each player. I've played over 75 rounds this year, and save for a brief experiment in leaving it in when the rule first changed, I've yet to encounter unanimity on the issue amongst a foursome. The exception being state and local tournament rounds where the consensus was PIN OUT except for very long putts or severely fast/sloping putts where speed was less controllable.

> > > > >

> > > > > IMO slow players always figure out a way to be slow and pin in or out isn't going to make a substantial difference even if everyone did leave it in.

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > I'm not disputing you or advocating for one side or another, as I'm still on the fence with this one......but it seems that a pretty well-respected short game guy says to leave the pin in for putting:

> > > > https://www.golf.com/Instruction/2019/01/02/dave-plez-putt-with-the-flagstick-in-rule-change-2018

> > > > His testing was from 1990.....sure, golf balls have changed a bit since then, but physics hasn't.

> > > >

> > > In those tests, he was using fast speeds...speeds that would more likely occur when chipping the ball (more variance in distance control), than speeds that would typically happen when putting. Especially faster than the speeds are when putting from closer distances.

> > >

> > >

> >

> > How do you know that???? Or did you just make that up? According to the article:

> > "The testing was performed with a special putting device built to roll putts accurately aimed with a laser—and a true, pure roll—from two feet away. We rolled putts at different speeds hitting different parts of the pin on flat, uphill and downhill sloping greens. The test results were conclusive: You will hole a higher percentage of putts when you leave the flagstick in."

> >

> > These are Pelz's words, not mine.

>

> It has been discussed in the tens of threads covering this subject ever since the new rules were published.

>

> Here's one source, the man himself:

>

> https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.golf.com/instruction/flag-or-out/amp/

 

Not buying it. I found the studies (with accompanying video) claiming the opposite to be more credible and convincing. I've also got over 75 rounds in this season watching many putts with stick both in and out and my completely unscientific observations confirm that it hurts more than it helps. ?

[dpb5031]

Then there's this one:

https://www.golfdigest.com/story/the-science-behind-why-the-flagstick-should-be-pulled-999-percent-of-the-time

[HitEmTrue]

> @"Crazy About Golf" said:

>

> > @HitEmTrue said:

> > > @"Crazy About Golf" said:

> > > > @dpb5031 said:

> > > > Disagree. It's not subjective. The earlier touted studies were significantly flawed. Several only measured dead center strikes with thin fiberglass flagsticks or balls rolling 100 mph. Those I'm speaking of measured center and off-center pin strikes as well as straight and breaking putts, plus had data points for putts rolling at several different speeds. They also sampled flagsticks of various size and materials.

> > > >

> > > > In terms of pace of play, it only really helps pace if everyone agrees to leave it in, and can actually add time if you're pulling it and replacing it for each player. I've played over 75 rounds this year, and save for a brief experiment in leaving it in when the rule first changed, I've yet to encounter unanimity on the issue amongst a foursome. The exception being state and local tournament rounds where the consensus was PIN OUT except for very long putts or severely fast/sloping putts where speed was less controllable.

> > > >

> > > > IMO slow players always figure out a way to be slow and pin in or out isn't going to make a substantial difference even if everyone did leave it in.

> > > >

> > >

> > > I'm not disputing you or advocating for one side or another, as I'm still on the fence with this one......but it seems that a pretty well-respected short game guy says to leave the pin in for putting:

> > > https://www.golf.com/Instruction/2019/01/02/dave-plez-putt-with-the-flagstick-in-rule-change-2018

> > > His testing was from 1990.....sure, golf balls have changed a bit since then, but physics hasn't.

> > >

> > In those tests, he was using fast speeds...speeds that would more likely occur when chipping the ball (more variance in distance control), than speeds that would typically happen when putting. Especially faster than the speeds are when putting from closer distances.

> >

> >

>

> How do you know that???? Or did you just make that up? According to the article:

> "The testing was performed with a special putting device built to roll putts accurately aimed with a laser—and a true, pure roll—from two feet away. We rolled putts at different speeds hitting different parts of the pin on flat, uphill and downhill sloping greens. The test results were conclusive: You will hole a higher percentage of putts when you leave the flagstick in."

>

> These are Pelz's words, not mine.

 

You have to go back to older articles to get more details...Halebopp posted a link.

 

"On a perfectly flat green, the speeds were fast enough to send the ball three feet past the hole, six feet past, and nine feet past. "

and:

"It proved especially advantageous when chipping downhill and at faster speeds"

 

 

 

 

[PappyVanWinkle53]

 

>

> You have to go back to older articles to get more details...Halebopp posted a link.

>

> "On a perfectly flat green, the speeds were fast enough to send the ball three feet past the hole, six feet past, and nine feet past. "

> and:

> "It proved especially advantageous when chipping downhill and at faster speeds"

>

>

>

>

 

Thanks for following up and for your patience.....I checked out the link. As I mentioned to Halebopp.....great additional info to help inform my opinion.....and to corroborate my current preference to take the pin out for putts shorter than 25/30 feet.

 

On another note, I just re-read my post to you.....my apologies if I came off as accusing you of making stuff up. That's not the way it sounded in my mind when I was drafting it.

[HitEmTrue]

@"Crazy About Golf" , no worries!

 

I have no problem leaving it in all the time, but if I was into competitive golf, would probably have it out on shorter putts, too.

[PappyVanWinkle53]

 

>

> It has been discussed in the tens of threads covering this subject ever since the new rules were published.

>

> Here's one source, the man himself:

>

> https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.golf.com/instruction/flag-or-out/amp/

 

Thanks for providing this......some additional info to help me needle thru this. I know the issue of in/out has been discussed ad nauseam, but I've never really given it too much thought. From what I can gather, it appears having the flag in is best if you somehow hit the ball a good bit harder than intended (3/6/9 feet past) and you need a backstop that'll either keep the ball closer to the hole or be lucky and drop you in.

[PappyVanWinkle53]

> @Halebopp said:

> > @"Crazy About Golf" said:

> >

> > > @HitEmTrue said:

> > > > @"Crazy About Golf" said:

> > > > > @dpb5031 said:

> > > > > Disagree. It's not subjective. The earlier touted studies were significantly flawed. Several only measured dead center strikes with thin fiberglass flagsticks or balls rolling 100 mph. Those I'm speaking of measured center and off-center pin strikes as well as straight and breaking putts, plus had data points for putts rolling at several different speeds. They also sampled flagsticks of various size and materials.

> > > > >

> > > > > In terms of pace of play, it only really helps pace if everyone agrees to leave it in, and can actually add time if you're pulling it and replacing it for each player. I've played over 75 rounds this year, and save for a brief experiment in leaving it in when the rule first changed, I've yet to encounter unanimity on the issue amongst a foursome. The exception being state and local tournament rounds where the consensus was PIN OUT except for very long putts or severely fast/sloping putts where speed was less controllable.

> > > > >

> > > > > IMO slow players always figure out a way to be slow and pin in or out isn't going to make a substantial difference even if everyone did leave it in.

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > I'm not disputing you or advocating for one side or another, as I'm still on the fence with this one......but it seems that a pretty well-respected short game guy says to leave the pin in for putting:

> > > > https://www.golf.com/Instruction/2019/01/02/dave-plez-putt-with-the-flagstick-in-rule-change-2018

> > > > His testing was from 1990.....sure, golf balls have changed a bit since then, but physics hasn't.

> > > >

> > > In those tests, he was using fast speeds...speeds that would more likely occur when chipping the ball (more variance in distance control), than speeds that would typically happen when putting. Especially faster than the speeds are when putting from closer distances.

> > >

> > >

> >

> > How do you know that???? Or did you just make that up? According to the article:

> > "The testing was performed with a special putting device built to roll putts accurately aimed with a laser—and a true, pure roll—from two feet away. We rolled putts at different speeds hitting different parts of the pin on flat, uphill and downhill sloping greens. The test results were conclusive: You will hole a higher percentage of putts when you leave the flagstick in."

> >

> > These are Pelz's words, not mine.

>

> It has been discussed in the tens of threads covering this subject ever since the new rules were published.

>

> Here's one source, the man himself:

>

> https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.golf.com/instruction/flag-or-out/amp/

 

Thanks very much for following up with this info.......good stuff. Certainly provides some additional context in helping me evaluate how to approach putting with the new rules. As I mentioned before, I much prefer pulling the pin for short to mid range putts....my instinct just tell me it's better anyway, so i think I'll stick with it!!!

 

 

[PappyVanWinkle53]

 

>

> It has been discussed in the tens of threads covering this subject ever since the new rules were published.

>

> Here's one source, the man himself:

>

> https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.golf.com/instruction/flag-or-out/amp/

 

Thanks for providing this......some additional info to help me needle thru this. I know the issue of in/out has been discussed ad nauseam, but I've never really given it too much thought. From what I can gather, it appears having the flag in is best if you somehow hit the ball a good bit harder than intended (3/6/9 feet past) and you need a backstop that'll either keep the ball closer to the hole or be lucky and drop you in.

[PappyVanWinkle53]

> @Halebopp said:

> > @"Crazy About Golf" said:

> >

> > > @HitEmTrue said:

> > > > @"Crazy About Golf" said:

> > > > > @dpb5031 said:

> > > > > Disagree. It's not subjective. The earlier touted studies were significantly flawed. Several only measured dead center strikes with thin fiberglass flagsticks or balls rolling 100 mph. Those I'm speaking of measured center and off-center pin strikes as well as straight and breaking putts, plus had data points for putts rolling at several different speeds. They also sampled flagsticks of various size and materials.

> > > > >

> > > > > In terms of pace of play, it only really helps pace if everyone agrees to leave it in, and can actually add time if you're pulling it and replacing it for each player. I've played over 75 rounds this year, and save for a brief experiment in leaving it in when the rule first changed, I've yet to encounter unanimity on the issue amongst a foursome. The exception being state and local tournament rounds where the consensus was PIN OUT except for very long putts or severely fast/sloping putts where speed was less controllable.

> > > > >

> > > > > IMO slow players always figure out a way to be slow and pin in or out isn't going to make a substantial difference even if everyone did leave it in.

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > I'm not disputing you or advocating for one side or another, as I'm still on the fence with this one......but it seems that a pretty well-respected short game guy says to leave the pin in for putting:

> > > > https://www.golf.com/Instruction/2019/01/02/dave-plez-putt-with-the-flagstick-in-rule-change-2018

> > > > His testing was from 1990.....sure, golf balls have changed a bit since then, but physics hasn't.

> > > >

> > > In those tests, he was using fast speeds...speeds that would more likely occur when chipping the ball (more variance in distance control), than speeds that would typically happen when putting. Especially faster than the speeds are when putting from closer distances.

> > >

> > >

> >

> > How do you know that???? Or did you just make that up? According to the article:

> > "The testing was performed with a special putting device built to roll putts accurately aimed with a laser—and a true, pure roll—from two feet away. We rolled putts at different speeds hitting different parts of the pin on flat, uphill and downhill sloping greens. The test results were conclusive: You will hole a higher percentage of putts when you leave the flagstick in."

> >

> > These are Pelz's words, not mine.

>

> It has been discussed in the tens of threads covering this subject ever since the new rules were published.

>

> Here's one source, the man himself:

>

> https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.golf.com/instruction/flag-or-out/amp/

 

Thanks very much for following up with this info.......good stuff. Certainly provides some additional context in helping me evaluate how to approach putting with the new rules. As I mentioned before, I much prefer pulling the pin for short to mid range putts....my instinct just tell me it's better anyway, so i think I'll stick with it!!!

 

 

[Halebopp]

> @dpb5031 said:

> > @Halebopp said:

> > > @"Crazy About Golf" said:

> > >

> > > > @HitEmTrue said:

> > > > > @"Crazy About Golf" said:

> > > > > > @dpb5031 said:

> > > > > > Disagree. It's not subjective. The earlier touted studies were significantly flawed. Several only measured dead center strikes with thin fiberglass flagsticks or balls rolling 100 mph. Those I'm speaking of measured center and off-center pin strikes as well as straight and breaking putts, plus had data points for putts rolling at several different speeds. They also sampled flagsticks of various size and materials.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > In terms of pace of play, it only really helps pace if everyone agrees to leave it in, and can actually add time if you're pulling it and replacing it for each player. I've played over 75 rounds this year, and save for a brief experiment in leaving it in when the rule first changed, I've yet to encounter unanimity on the issue amongst a foursome. The exception being state and local tournament rounds where the consensus was PIN OUT except for very long putts or severely fast/sloping putts where speed was less controllable.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > IMO slow players always figure out a way to be slow and pin in or out isn't going to make a substantial difference even if everyone did leave it in.

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > I'm not disputing you or advocating for one side or another, as I'm still on the fence with this one......but it seems that a pretty well-respected short game guy says to leave the pin in for putting:

> > > > > https://www.golf.com/Instruction/2019/01/02/dave-plez-putt-with-the-flagstick-in-rule-change-2018

> > > > > His testing was from 1990.....sure, golf balls have changed a bit since then, but physics hasn't.

> > > > >

> > > > In those tests, he was using fast speeds...speeds that would more likely occur when chipping the ball (more variance in distance control), than speeds that would typically happen when putting. Especially faster than the speeds are when putting from closer distances.

> > > >

> > > >

> > >

> > > How do you know that???? Or did you just make that up? According to the article:

> > > "The testing was performed with a special putting device built to roll putts accurately aimed with a laser—and a true, pure roll—from two feet away. We rolled putts at different speeds hitting different parts of the pin on flat, uphill and downhill sloping greens. The test results were conclusive: You will hole a higher percentage of putts when you leave the flagstick in."

> > >

> > > These are Pelz's words, not mine.

> >

> > It has been discussed in the tens of threads covering this subject ever since the new rules were published.

> >

> > Here's one source, the man himself:

> >

> > https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.golf.com/instruction/flag-or-out/amp/

>

> Not buying it. I found the studies (with accompanying video) claiming the opposite to be more credible and convincing. I've also got over 75 rounds in this season watching many putts with stick both in and out and my completely unscientific observations confirm that it hurts more than it helps. ?

 

You're not buying Pelz's word on him running the balls 3, 6 and 9 feet past the hole rendering the test pointless for putts? That's what I was replying to. :)

[dpb5031]

> @Halebopp said:

> > @dpb5031 said:

> > > @Halebopp said:

> > > > @"Crazy About Golf" said:

> > > >

> > > > > @HitEmTrue said:

> > > > > > @"Crazy About Golf" said:

> > > > > > > @dpb5031 said:

> > > > > > > Disagree. It's not subjective. The earlier touted studies were significantly flawed. Several only measured dead center strikes with thin fiberglass flagsticks or balls rolling 100 mph. Those I'm speaking of measured center and off-center pin strikes as well as straight and breaking putts, plus had data points for putts rolling at several different speeds. They also sampled flagsticks of various size and materials.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > In terms of pace of play, it only really helps pace if everyone agrees to leave it in, and can actually add time if you're pulling it and replacing it for each player. I've played over 75 rounds this year, and save for a brief experiment in leaving it in when the rule first changed, I've yet to encounter unanimity on the issue amongst a foursome. The exception being state and local tournament rounds where the consensus was PIN OUT except for very long putts or severely fast/sloping putts where speed was less controllable.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > IMO slow players always figure out a way to be slow and pin in or out isn't going to make a substantial difference even if everyone did leave it in.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I'm not disputing you or advocating for one side or another, as I'm still on the fence with this one......but it seems that a pretty well-respected short game guy says to leave the pin in for putting:

> > > > > > https://www.golf.com/Instruction/2019/01/02/dave-plez-putt-with-the-flagstick-in-rule-change-2018

> > > > > > His testing was from 1990.....sure, golf balls have changed a bit since then, but physics hasn't.

> > > > > >

> > > > > In those tests, he was using fast speeds...speeds that would more likely occur when chipping the ball (more variance in distance control), than speeds that would typically happen when putting. Especially faster than the speeds are when putting from closer distances.

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > How do you know that???? Or did you just make that up? According to the article:

> > > > "The testing was performed with a special putting device built to roll putts accurately aimed with a laser—and a true, pure roll—from two feet away. We rolled putts at different speeds hitting different parts of the pin on flat, uphill and downhill sloping greens. The test results were conclusive: You will hole a higher percentage of putts when you leave the flagstick in."

> > > >

> > > > These are Pelz's words, not mine.

> > >

> > > It has been discussed in the tens of threads covering this subject ever since the new rules were published.

> > >

> > > Here's one source, the man himself:

> > >

> > > https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.golf.com/instruction/flag-or-out/amp/

> >

> > Not buying it. I found the studies (with accompanying video) claiming the opposite to be more credible and convincing. I've also got over 75 rounds in this season watching many putts with stick both in and out and my completely unscientific observations confirm that it hurts more than it helps. ?

>

> You're not buying Pelz's word on him running the balls 3, 6 and 9 feet past the hole rendering the test pointless for putts? That's what I was replying to. :)

 

Nope...lol! But with my own eyes I saw the video on the Cal Poly study of the ball being deflected when striking the pin off-center. Same putts went in the hole with the stick removed. Was pretty convincing

[I_HATE_SNOW]

> @dpb5031 said:

> > @Halebopp said:

> > > @dpb5031 said:

> > > > @Halebopp said:

> > > > > @"Crazy About Golf" said:

> > > > >

> > > > > > @HitEmTrue said:

> > > > > > > @"Crazy About Golf" said:

> > > > > > > > @dpb5031 said:

> > > > > > > > Disagree. It's not subjective. The earlier touted studies were significantly flawed. Several only measured dead center strikes with thin fiberglass flagsticks or balls rolling 100 mph. Those I'm speaking of measured center and off-center pin strikes as well as straight and breaking putts, plus had data points for putts rolling at several different speeds. They also sampled flagsticks of various size and materials.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > In terms of pace of play, it only really helps pace if everyone agrees to leave it in, and can actually add time if you're pulling it and replacing it for each player. I've played over 75 rounds this year, and save for a brief experiment in leaving it in when the rule first changed, I've yet to encounter unanimity on the issue amongst a foursome. The exception being state and local tournament rounds where the consensus was PIN OUT except for very long putts or severely fast/sloping putts where speed was less controllable.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > IMO slow players always figure out a way to be slow and pin in or out isn't going to make a substantial difference even if everyone did leave it in.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > I'm not disputing you or advocating for one side or another, as I'm still on the fence with this one......but it seems that a pretty well-respected short game guy says to leave the pin in for putting:

> > > > > > > https://www.golf.com/Instruction/2019/01/02/dave-plez-putt-with-the-flagstick-in-rule-change-2018

> > > > > > > His testing was from 1990.....sure, golf balls have changed a bit since then, but physics hasn't.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > In those tests, he was using fast speeds...speeds that would more likely occur when chipping the ball (more variance in distance control), than speeds that would typically happen when putting. Especially faster than the speeds are when putting from closer distances.

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > How do you know that???? Or did you just make that up? According to the article:

> > > > > "The testing was performed with a special putting device built to roll putts accurately aimed with a laser—and a true, pure roll—from two feet away. We rolled putts at different speeds hitting different parts of the pin on flat, uphill and downhill sloping greens. The test results were conclusive: You will hole a higher percentage of putts when you leave the flagstick in."

> > > > >

> > > > > These are Pelz's words, not mine.

> > > >

> > > > It has been discussed in the tens of threads covering this subject ever since the new rules were published.

> > > >

> > > > Here's one source, the man himself:

> > > >

> > > > https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.golf.com/instruction/flag-or-out/amp/

> > >

> > > Not buying it. I found the studies (with accompanying video) claiming the opposite to be more credible and convincing. I've also got over 75 rounds in this season watching many putts with stick both in and out and my completely unscientific observations confirm that it hurts more than it helps. ?

> >

> > You're not buying Pelz's word on him running the balls 3, 6 and 9 feet past the hole rendering the test pointless for putts? That's what I was replying to. :)

>

> Nope...lol! But with my own eyes I saw the video on the Cal Poly study of the ball being deflected when striking the pin off-center. Same putts went in the hole with the stick removed. Was pretty convincing

 

You've never seen one hit the flag and go in when it would have just hopped over the hole?

[North Butte]

> @I_HATE_SNOW said:

> > @dpb5031 said:

> > > @Halebopp said:

> > > > @dpb5031 said:

> > > > > @Halebopp said:

> > > > > > @"Crazy About Golf" said:

> > > > > >

> > > > > > > @HitEmTrue said:

> > > > > > > > @"Crazy About Golf" said:

> > > > > > > > > @dpb5031 said:

> > > > > > > > > Disagree. It's not subjective. The earlier touted studies were significantly flawed. Several only measured dead center strikes with thin fiberglass flagsticks or balls rolling 100 mph. Those I'm speaking of measured center and off-center pin strikes as well as straight and breaking putts, plus had data points for putts rolling at several different speeds. They also sampled flagsticks of various size and materials.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > In terms of pace of play, it only really helps pace if everyone agrees to leave it in, and can actually add time if you're pulling it and replacing it for each player. I've played over 75 rounds this year, and save for a brief experiment in leaving it in when the rule first changed, I've yet to encounter unanimity on the issue amongst a foursome. The exception being state and local tournament rounds where the consensus was PIN OUT except for very long putts or severely fast/sloping putts where speed was less controllable.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > IMO slow players always figure out a way to be slow and pin in or out isn't going to make a substantial difference even if everyone did leave it in.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > I'm not disputing you or advocating for one side or another, as I'm still on the fence with this one......but it seems that a pretty well-respected short game guy says to leave the pin in for putting:

> > > > > > > > https://www.golf.com/Instruction/2019/01/02/dave-plez-putt-with-the-flagstick-in-rule-change-2018

> > > > > > > > His testing was from 1990.....sure, golf balls have changed a bit since then, but physics hasn't.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > In those tests, he was using fast speeds...speeds that would more likely occur when chipping the ball (more variance in distance control), than speeds that would typically happen when putting. Especially faster than the speeds are when putting from closer distances.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > How do you know that???? Or did you just make that up? According to the article:

> > > > > > "The testing was performed with a special putting device built to roll putts accurately aimed with a laser—and a true, pure roll—from two feet away. We rolled putts at different speeds hitting different parts of the pin on flat, uphill and downhill sloping greens. The test results were conclusive: You will hole a higher percentage of putts when you leave the flagstick in."

> > > > > >

> > > > > > These are Pelz's words, not mine.

> > > > >

> > > > > It has been discussed in the tens of threads covering this subject ever since the new rules were published.

> > > > >

> > > > > Here's one source, the man himself:

> > > > >

> > > > > https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.golf.com/instruction/flag-or-out/amp/

> > > >

> > > > Not buying it. I found the studies (with accompanying video) claiming the opposite to be more credible and convincing. I've also got over 75 rounds in this season watching many putts with stick both in and out and my completely unscientific observations confirm that it hurts more than it helps. ?

> > >

> > > You're not buying Pelz's word on him running the balls 3, 6 and 9 feet past the hole rendering the test pointless for putts? That's what I was replying to. :)

> >

> > Nope...lol! But with my own eyes I saw the video on the Cal Poly study of the ball being deflected when striking the pin off-center. Same putts went in the hole with the stick removed. Was pretty convincing

>

> You've never seen one hit the flag and go in when it would have just hopped over the hole?

 

Well obviously you leave the flag in when you're planning on hitting it dead center but too hard. And you pull it out when you're planning to hit it off-center. ;-)

 

What could be simpler?????

[Imp]

> @dpb5031 said:

> > @Halebopp said:

> > > @dpb5031 said:

> > > > @Halebopp said:

> > > > > @"Crazy About Golf" said:

> > > > >

> > > > > > @HitEmTrue said:

> > > > > > > @"Crazy About Golf" said:

> > > > > > > > @dpb5031 said:

> > > > > > > > Disagree. It's not subjective. The earlier touted studies were significantly flawed. Several only measured dead center strikes with thin fiberglass flagsticks or balls rolling 100 mph. Those I'm speaking of measured center and off-center pin strikes as well as straight and breaking putts, plus had data points for putts rolling at several different speeds. They also sampled flagsticks of various size and materials.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > In terms of pace of play, it only really helps pace if everyone agrees to leave it in, and can actually add time if you're pulling it and replacing it for each player. I've played over 75 rounds this year, and save for a brief experiment in leaving it in when the rule first changed, I've yet to encounter unanimity on the issue amongst a foursome. The exception being state and local tournament rounds where the consensus was PIN OUT except for very long putts or severely fast/sloping putts where speed was less controllable.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > IMO slow players always figure out a way to be slow and pin in or out isn't going to make a substantial difference even if everyone did leave it in.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > I'm not disputing you or advocating for one side or another, as I'm still on the fence with this one......but it seems that a pretty well-respected short game guy says to leave the pin in for putting:

> > > > > > > https://www.golf.com/Instruction/2019/01/02/dave-plez-putt-with-the-flagstick-in-rule-change-2018

> > > > > > > His testing was from 1990.....sure, golf balls have changed a bit since then, but physics hasn't.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > In those tests, he was using fast speeds...speeds that would more likely occur when chipping the ball (more variance in distance control), than speeds that would typically happen when putting. Especially faster than the speeds are when putting from closer distances.

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > How do you know that???? Or did you just make that up? According to the article:

> > > > > "The testing was performed with a special putting device built to roll putts accurately aimed with a laser—and a true, pure roll—from two feet away. We rolled putts at different speeds hitting different parts of the pin on flat, uphill and downhill sloping greens. The test results were conclusive: You will hole a higher percentage of putts when you leave the flagstick in."

> > > > >

> > > > > These are Pelz's words, not mine.

> > > >

> > > > It has been discussed in the tens of threads covering this subject ever since the new rules were published.

> > > >

> > > > Here's one source, the man himself:

> > > >

> > > > https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.golf.com/instruction/flag-or-out/amp/

> > >

> > > Not buying it. I found the studies (with accompanying video) claiming the opposite to be more credible and convincing. I've also got over 75 rounds in this season watching many putts with stick both in and out and my completely unscientific observations confirm that it hurts more than it helps. ?

> >

> > You're not buying Pelz's word on him running the balls 3, 6 and 9 feet past the hole rendering the test pointless for putts? That's what I was replying to. :)

>

> Nope...lol! But with my own eyes I saw the video on the Cal Poly study of the ball being deflected when striking the pin off-center. Same putts went in the hole with the stick removed. Was pretty convincing

 

As mentioned earlier, the result of that study is... if the speed of the ball near the hole of the putt was such that would leave a come-back putt of 4.5' or greater, then pin out would be better. Any putt under 10 feet (as long as not faster than the 4.5' comeback pace) didn't matter in or out. Meaning, an 8 foot putt, or even a 30 foot putt, with a pace that would leave it 2' by the hole, is the same result... doesn't matter if flag in or out, the flag in doesn't hurt. It's all about pace by the hole.

 

--kC

[dayvei214]

My only grief now is that I just adds more time @ the amateur level... Joe wants it out Jeff wants it in. But like a guy I played with said "it's your game and you paid the fee, play your game"

[Roadking2003]

> @dayvei214 said:

> My only grief now is that I just adds more time @ the amateur level... Joe wants it out Jeff wants it in. But like a guy I played with said "it's your game and you paid the fee, play your game"

 

After about 80 rounds this year, that has never happened.

[BlackDiamondPar5]

> @Roadking2003 said:

> > @dayvei214 said:

> > My only grief now is that I just adds more time @ the amateur level... Joe wants it out Jeff wants it in. But like a guy I played with said "it's your game and you paid the fee, play your game"

>

> After about 80 rounds this year, that has never happened.

 

Agreed haven't seen it happen either even in my tournament rounds. It's a definite time saver.