I hate the "Leaving the flag in" rule

[North Butte]

> @dpb5031 said:

> > @"North Butte" said:

> > > @dpb5031 said:>

> > > I'm ambivalent about the rule change in terms of pace of play & perceived advantage, but you guys are trying too hard to justify your preference. Really silly to think that it isn't resulting in many more hands squeezing in around the flagstick to retrieve the ball. Unless extreme care is given, those hands come in contact with the hole's edges, easily causing damage.

> > >

> > > Our course changes hole locations daily. Our group plays 4 days per week. We've noticed the damage, and so has our superintendent.

> >

> > I'm just reporting what I see, playing 3x a week at my one little country club course. On the day the holes are moved, they mostly look pretty good. Even if I play late afternoon. By some time on the second day at least some of the holes will be showing damage. By the third and fourth days they are beat to heck.

> >

> > I could have made that same statement in 2018 or 2017 or for that matter 2010. It has not changed at all as far as I can tell. Maybe now the damage accumulates slightly faster and I simply can't perceive it. But if it's any worse at all, the effect of leaving the flag in is pretty minor.

>

> Likely comes down to number of rounds. Our place is very busy with a pretty full morning tee sheet 7 days per week. Obviously the more players passing through, the greater potential for the accrual of damage over time. Also, as I noted previously in the thread, we have Bermuda greens which always have a rough edge on one side of the hole due to grain. This portion of the edge of the hole is particularly fragile and susceptible to damage when touched.

 

Yep, I played on Bermuda too. It takes a long, long time with the hole in one location for the other sides of the holes to start looking really bad. It's that 1/4 or so of the hole edge on the lower side that starts looking bad pretty quickly.

 

Although the odd random divot might be taken out of any side of the hole on any given day! It's always particularly annoying to be in the fourth or fifth group of the morning, on a day the holes were cut at 7am, and see a hole that has a chunk missing.

[Roadking2003]

> @"North Butte" said:>

> I think I said something much the same upthread. After a couple days with the hole in the same location, the edges of our cups are always beat up.

Shouldn't they cut new holes every day?

 

[Mr. Bean]

> @Roadking2003 said:

> > @"North Butte" said:>

> > I think I said something much the same upthread. After a couple days with the hole in the same location, the edges of our cups are always beat up.

> Shouldn't they cut new holes every day?

>

 

On a muni..?

[North Butte]

> @Roadking2003 said:

> > @"North Butte" said:>

> > I think I said something much the same upthread. After a couple days with the hole in the same location, the edges of our cups are always beat up.

> Shouldn't they cut new holes every day?

 

I would love it if they did but generally it’s twice a week in summer and just once a week in winter.

 

Although when there are tournaments or club events (frequent) new holes are cut each day.

 

 

[Vespar]

Keep the pin in, love it.

I find with the pin in I hit to the pin/hole with out leaving it short on the edge. My putts per round is lower. Im a 4 handicap.

 

Many have said well why don't pros do it, simple...they are an odd bunch and you re not a pro

[jmkenn0]

For me, I'm so much better on putts 6' and in with the pin in - having a target in the middle of the pin probably saves me 1 putt/round. Have yet to see any putts get ricocheted out, but the home course generally has green> @"Deceptively Short" said:

> > @Newby said:

> > > @Newby said:

> > > > @"Deceptively Short" said:

> > > > I would be keen to know if this ball retriever system is legal. If so it would be a potentially good solution to the hole damage which is exercising the minds of many including the British and International Greenkeeping Association.

> > >

> > > Enquiries are in hand

> > I am advised that they are considered to be non-conforming and should not be used for competition play.

> > There have been other enquiries about their conformance and the the Equipment and Standards Department are currently discussing the matter.

>

> Well that’s a shame, I hope there will be a way to achieve the same result that will be conforming as it will save a lot of damage, particularly those with ball retrievers on their putters jamming them down the edge of the hole.

 

Yeah, this definitely seems super short-sighted by the ruling bodies, they should have (IMO) not only considered the disc at the bottom, but encouraged it as well. I think if you had this concept you'd see way more adoption of the flag in. I do wonder what the disc would do to the green when someone drops the flags like people do, and also how well it would hold up? Also, any sort of funkiness in the bottom of the cup could impact the depth? Damn I think I just talked myself out of it.

[Newby]

> @jmkenn0 said:

> For me, I'm so much better on putts 6' and in with the pin in - having a target in the middle of the pin probably saves me 1 putt/round. Have yet to see any putts get ricocheted out, but the home course generally has green> @"Deceptively Short" said:

> > > @Newby said:

> > > > @Newby said:

> > > > > @"Deceptively Short" said:

> > > > > I would be keen to know if this ball retriever system is legal. If so it would be a potentially good solution to the hole damage which is exercising the minds of many including the British and International Greenkeeping Association.

> > > >

> > > > Enquiries are in hand

> > > I am advised that they are considered to be non-conforming and should not be used for competition play.

> > > There have been other enquiries about their conformance and the the Equipment and Standards Department are currently discussing the matter.

> >

> > Well that’s a shame, I hope there will be a way to achieve the same result that will be conforming as it will save a lot of damage, particularly those with ball retrievers on their putters jamming them down the edge of the hole.

>

> Yeah, this definitely seems super short-sighted by the ruling bodies, they should have (IMO) not only considered the disc at the bottom, but encouraged it as well. I think if you had this concept you'd see way more adoption of the flag in. I do wonder what the disc would do to the green when someone drops the flags like people do, and also how well it would hold up? Also, any sort of funkiness in the bottom of the cup could impact the depth? **** I think I just talked myself out of it.

 

They are considering it now. I think the product has only just come on the scene.

[Sawgrass]

While I anticpated some trouble getting used to this flag-in rule, I did not.

 

And while experiencing the comfort and speed of the flagstick being left in while playing yesterday, I tried to imagine what it would be like if the rule was changed back to the previous penalty. I think I'd be despondent.

[Mikey5e]

I just don't understand why people are complaining about this rule when you have an option to do just what you want to do. It's not like they're forcing you to putt with the flagstick in, you have a choice!

[HatsForBats]

> @Mikey5e said:

> I just don't understand why people are complaining about this rule when you have an option to do just what you want to do. It's not like they're forcing you to putt with the flagstick in, you have a choice!

 

People will complain about any change. It is mostly human nature. They do have some valid points abut damage to the holes and times when you have 2 players that need it in and 2 that need it out. I think some other changes could help those but there is that word change again.

[Augustok]

Played today and the four people were all flag in people. The flag didn’t come out once. It is so much more convenient. We have all mastered the 2 finger pick out so the ball only touches the flag stick. Most of the people I play with keep flag in.

[North Butte]

> @Augustok said:

> Played today and the four people were all flag in people. The flag didn’t come out once. It is so much more convenient. We have all mastered the 2 finger pick out so the ball only touches the flag stick. Most of the people I play with keep flag in.

 

I have now played four rounds in a row with threesomes or foursomes in which nobody has pulled the flag a single time. Of the final two remaining flag-pullers in my usual group, one of them has moved out of state and left the club and the other has been out of town for a couple weeks.

 

It will be interesting when that final guy gets back next week if he keeps pulling it out for all his putts inside 10 feet. So far, he has seemed very insistent that he simply can't putt from close in knowing that the flag's in the hole. I guess he'll probably keep pulling it.

[BlackDiamondPar5]

> @"North Butte" said:

> > @Augustok said:

> > Played today and the four people were all flag in people. The flag didn’t come out once. It is so much more convenient. We have all mastered the 2 finger pick out so the ball only touches the flag stick. Most of the people I play with keep flag in.

>

> I have now played four rounds in a row with threesomes or foursomes in which nobody has pulled the flag a single time. Of the final two remaining flag-pullers in my usual group, one of them has moved out of state and left the club and the other has been out of town for a couple weeks.

>

> It will be interesting when that final guy gets back next week if he keeps pulling it out for all his putts inside 10 feet. So far, he has seemed very insistent that he simply can't putt from close in knowing that the flag's in the hole. I guess he'll probably keep pulling it.

 

Yeah its really amazing how this has taken off. Except for a couple leaning flagsticks I haven't seen a pin pulled in more than a month.

[dubbelbogey]

In my multiple dozens of rounds this year, only one had a player that had to have the pin out all the time. A couple of times a few players would pull the pin for a few holes. I play most of my rounds as a single paired with strangers, so I see a different group each round. Seems the masses around here have fully embraced the pin-in way. Personally, I don't care either way when it comes to my own putting.

 

 

[Mudguard]

> @BlackDiamondPar5 said:

 

> Yeah its really amazing how this has taken off. Except for a couple leaning flagsticks I haven't seen a pin pulled in more than a month.

That's the problem we have, sloppy pins. Fine if it's leaning away, but we play in the wind so they're wobbling around all over the place.

 

 

[T.B.]

Hate the flag in. People are 2 stupid or lazy or maybe a combination of both. Idk but again wtf has happened to the world I use to know

[Vindog]

> @"T.B." said:

> Hate the flag in. People are 2 stupid or lazy or maybe a combination of both. Idk but again wtf has happened to the world I use to know

 

You are free to pull the pin at your discretion. That is, after you stop yelling at clouds and telling kids to get off your lawn

[T.B.]

> @Vindog said:

> > @"T.B." said:

> > Hate the flag in. People are 2 stupid or lazy or maybe a combination of both. Idk but again wtf has happened to the world I use to know

>

> You are free to pull the pin at your discretion. That is, after you stop yelling at clouds and telling kids to get off your lawn

 

And telling people to turn the music off.

[Augster]

Most of the guys I play with are flag out guys now inside 30’. We’ve just seen too many made putts get knocked away by the pin. I’m at 12 of them myself this year and that’s when I finally threw in the towel.

 

Now we call leaving the stick in “playing with fire”. As in, “Do you want it out or are you going to play with fire?” Every couple of rounds, one of those pin-in guys gets burned.

 

With the pin out, I have a 0% chance of the pin keeping the ball out of the hole.

 

One of my friends is a staunch pin-in guy. He usually putts first so he can leave it in. Good player, good putter. He left it in from 15’ after I asked him if he’s like it out or if he was willing to play with fire. Sure enough, perfect putt, in all the way, grazes the stick and rides the rim out. Missed the birdie. Lost the skin, lost the rabbit, lost the hole. Cost him the match and about $36 he didn’t win.

 

When you pin-in guys lose something big because the pin bites you, please don’t blame the pin or bad luck. You could have taken that pin out.

[HatsForBats]

> @Augster said:

> Most of the guys I play with are flag out guys now inside 30’. We’ve just seen too many made putts get knocked away by the pin. I’m at 12 of them myself this year and that’s when I finally threw in the towel.

>

> Now we call leaving the stick in “playing with fire”. As in, “Do you want it out or are you going to play with fire?” Every couple of rounds, one of those pin-in guys gets burned.

>

> With the pin out, I have a 0% chance of the pin keeping the ball out of the hole.

>

> One of my friends is a staunch pin-in guy. He usually putts first so he can leave it in. Good player, good putter. He left it in from 15’ after I asked him if he’s like it out or if he was willing to play with fire. Sure enough, perfect putt, in all the way, grazes the stick and rides the rim out. Missed the birdie. Lost the skin, lost the rabbit, lost the hole. Cost him the match and about $36 he didn’t win.

>

> When you pin-in guys lose something big because the pin bites you, please don’t blame the pin or bad luck. You could have taken that pin out.

 

Depends on the green speed, how the pins sit in the holes and the diameter of the stick. At my home course I have seen a total of 3 putts through about 100 rounds, 350'ish rounds total when adding playing partners, this year that I thought had a chance to go in if the pin was out. 2 of those were on a hole where the flagstick does not sit properly and leans. I see no reason to pull the pin at my home course, with the exception of holes where the flag leans, but there are other course I will pull the pin every time.

 

I would venture a guess that betting has a bigger pace of play impact than pulling the pin does.

[Newby]

Every putt I have had that has been on line has gone in with the flagstick in.

[Sawgrass]

> @Newby said:

> Every putt I have had that has been on line has gone in with the flagstick in.

 

My experience, exactly. Plus, two went in that had no right to.

[davep043]

The thing with the tales of balls that hit the flagstick and stayed out, you really do NOT know if they would have gone in without the stick. You can make a guess, but you don't know. For me this year, I've seen three or maybe four putts that hit the stick and stayed out when I thought they had a chance to go in. Not "definitely", but I thought they had a chance. There's also a chance that they could have gone 4 feet past, instead of stopping 12 inches away. I've seen lots hit the stick and go in, and I've seen a fair number hit the stick when they were clearly going too fast, and end up pretty close to the hole. On balance, I'd say that the flagstick has helped more often than it has hurt. Even so, I'm happy to take it out when I'm absolutely certain I can control my speed properly, meaning putts within about 15 feet.

[Mikey5e]

lol, i have hammered it and the flag stick has bailed me out on an occasion or two. Personally, I think it saves people more than it hurts them. Although, I generally like it out for inside 15 ft or so, but go either way to facilitate the group.

[BlackDiamondPar5]

> @HatsForBats said:

> > @Augster said:

> > Most of the guys I play with are flag out guys now inside 30’. We’ve just seen too many made putts get knocked away by the pin. I’m at 12 of them myself this year and that’s when I finally threw in the towel.

> >

> > Now we call leaving the stick in “playing with fire”. As in, “Do you want it out or are you going to play with fire?” Every couple of rounds, one of those pin-in guys gets burned.

> >

> > With the pin out, I have a 0% chance of the pin keeping the ball out of the hole.

> >

> > One of my friends is a staunch pin-in guy. He usually putts first so he can leave it in. Good player, good putter. He left it in from 15’ after I asked him if he’s like it out or if he was willing to play with fire. Sure enough, perfect putt, in all the way, grazes the stick and rides the rim out. Missed the birdie. Lost the skin, lost the rabbit, lost the hole. Cost him the match and about $36 he didn’t win.

> >

> > When you pin-in guys lose something big because the pin bites you, please don’t blame the pin or bad luck. You could have taken that pin out.

>

> Depends on the green speed, how the pins sit in the holes and the diameter of the stick. At my home course I have seen a total of 3 putts through about 100 rounds, 350'ish rounds total when adding playing partners, this year that I thought had a chance to go in if the pin was out. 2 of those were on a hole where the flagstick does not sit properly and leans. I see no reason to pull the pin at my home course, with the exception of holes where the flag leans, but there are other course I will pull the pin every time.

>

> I would venture a guess that betting has a bigger pace of play impact than pulling the pin does.

 

Completely agree. Another factor worth mentioning is pin material. I've never seen an aluminum pin but I guess some places have them and I understand the ricochet can be quite energetic. So if I ever encounter them the pin may come out more often.

 

For fiberglass the Pin stays in with everyone I've played with, especially the latter half of the season except for the leaning pins. Maybe one or two rejections for all I witnessed but also some saves. So to me it's a wash and why we generally keep the pin in.

[Augster]

> @davep043 said:

> The thing with the tales of balls that hit the flagstick and stayed out, you really do NOT know if they would have gone in without the stick. You can make a guess, but you don't know. For me this year, I've seen three or maybe four putts that hit the stick and stayed out when I thought they had a chance to go in. Not "definitely", but I thought they had a chance. There's also a chance that they could have gone 4 feet past, instead of stopping 12 inches away. I've seen lots hit the stick and go in, and I've seen a fair number hit the stick when they were clearly going too fast, and end up pretty close to the hole. On balance, I'd say that the flagstick has helped more often than it has hurt. Even so, I'm happy to take it out when I'm absolutely certain I can control my speed properly, meaning putts within about 15 feet.

 

Do not know? I missed an 8-inch birdie tap-in off the middle of the flag. That was the last time. Pitched it to 8-inches and figured I’d “save time” by not pulling the stick with a gimme of a putt. Nope.

 

All 12 of my misses, and many of the others I’ve seen, I know 100% they would have been in. These aren’t 40-footers. They are 6 feet, 8 feet and closer. Putts that have absolutely the correct speed and happen to the glance the stick, that is STILL in the middle of the hole, and stay out.

 

My friend is a scratch and he’s a faster learner than I am. He had TWO glance the stick and stay out before he became an always out putter. The first he was sure he made, but chalked it up to a freak break. The second he absolutely knew he made. If it happens twice, it’s no longer an anomaly.

 

If I weren’t playing for money every single round, then I’d likely not pull the flag. For posting purposes, there’s not much difference between an 80 or 81 in the rounds that the stick keeps one out. They are few and far between.

 

But playing for money, I don’t want ANY extra shots. Every shot costs money or makes money in some way. To think that not pulling the flag could end up costing me a chance at $20, $50, $100+? No way.

 

[chippa13]

I love how everybody believes they had absolutely perfect putts rejected. I still haven't seen it all year.

[Imp]

> @Augster said:

> > @davep043 said:

> > The thing with the tales of balls that hit the flagstick and stayed out, you really do NOT know if they would have gone in without the stick. You can make a guess, but you don't know. For me this year, I've seen three or maybe four putts that hit the stick and stayed out when I thought they had a chance to go in. Not "definitely", but I thought they had a chance. There's also a chance that they could have gone 4 feet past, instead of stopping 12 inches away. I've seen lots hit the stick and go in, and I've seen a fair number hit the stick when they were clearly going too fast, and end up pretty close to the hole. On balance, I'd say that the flagstick has helped more often than it has hurt. Even so, I'm happy to take it out when I'm absolutely certain I can control my speed properly, meaning putts within about 15 feet.

>

> Do not know? I missed an 8-inch birdie tap-in off the middle of the flag. That was the last time. Pitched it to 8-inches and figured I’d “save time” by not pulling the stick with a gimme of a putt. Nope.

>

> All 12 of my misses, and many of the others I’ve seen, I know 100% they would have been in. These aren’t 40-footers. They are 6 feet, 8 feet and closer. Putts that have absolutely the correct speed and happen to the glance the stick, that is STILL in the middle of the hole, and stay out.

>

> My friend is a scratch and he’s a faster learner than I am. He had TWO glance the stick and stay out before he became an always out putter. The first he was sure he made, but chalked it up to a freak break. The second he absolutely knew he made. If it happens twice, it’s no longer an anomaly.

>

> If I weren’t playing for money every single round, then I’d likely not pull the flag. For posting purposes, there’s not much difference between an 80 or 81 in the rounds that the stick keeps one out. They are few and far between.

>

> But playing for money, I don’t want ANY extra shots. Every shot costs money or makes money in some way. To think that not pulling the flag could end up costing me a chance at $20, $50, $100+? No way.

>

Your results appear to be an anomaly. I'm not really questioning your results, more as to find out why your results seem to have a higher percentage of refusals. You usually play the same course, right?

 

1) What's the flag stick material made out?

 

2) And I know this may be a big ask, but... is it a confirming diameter at the hole where the ball would come in contact with it? Supposed to be 1/2" wide where the ball would contact it, and no more. So, to be safe, usually about 1" above the surface where contact would occur and below (but usually higher). Go full Bryson (I know, no one goes full Bryson) but... bring some calipers in your bag. Measure 1" above the surface of the green.

 

3) If it's a tapered stick, is it possible the cup may be sunk deeper than it should?

 

4) You're not playing oversized balls like the Magna?

 

--kC

[dpb5031]

> @chippa13 said:

> I love how everybody believes they had absolutely perfect putts rejected. I still haven't seen it all year.

 

It's fairly obvious that there's significant confirmation bias at play on both sides of this discussion. Like a lot of things, people are going to believe what they want to believe.

 

Personally, I don't like "the look" of the flag stick left in. I have seen putts strike the stick and end up closer to the hole than had it been out, but I've also seen a significant number of breaking putts that in my view would have gone in, glance the stick and get rejected. All in all, I really don't believe there's any significant advantage in either scoring or pace of play to leaving it in.

 

I've played quite a bit of tournament golf with the Palm Beach County Golf Association and the FSGA this year...lots of really good players. It's notable that in the beginning of the season quite a few of the competitors were leaving the stick in, but more recently very few are doing so. From a practical perspective it's almost as if the rule hadn't changed at this point if you were to watch most players in these comps.

[davep043]

> @Imp said:

>

> 2) And I know this may be a big ask, but... is it a confirming diameter at the hole where the ball would come in contact with it? Supposed to be 1/2" wide where the ball would contact it, and no more. So, to be safe, usually about 1" above the surface where contact would occur and below (but usually higher). Go full Bryson (I know, no one goes full Bryson) but... bring some calipers in your bag. Measure 1" above the surface of the green.

 

Just to be accurate, the flagstick may be no more than 0.75 inches in diameter from a point 3 inches above the green surface to the bottom of the cup.

https://www.usga.org/equipment-standards/equipment-rules-2019/equipment-rules/equipment-rules.html#!ruletype=er&section=rule&partnum=8&rulenum=1

Most flagsticks I see are 1/2", but a larger one (3/4") would impact the response. I once did a google search for commercially available flagsticks, and didn't see any non-conforming flagsticks available.