I hate the "Leaving the flag in" rule

[bigred90gt]

I know a few courses around Houston could use some sturdier flagsticks.

 

[DeeBee30]

These two comments describe how I've felt about "pin in" all season:

 

(1) "I’ve still yet to run across a player who wants it left in unless it’s a putt you can’t stop and they think hitting the pin is better than going off the green."

AND

(2) "where I actually feel like there’s something blocking the hole and it interferes with my mindset."

 

(1) Speed control is a strength for me, so I'm rarely worried about racing a putt more than 2 feet past the hole. BUT, on severe downhill/fast putts, I'll take a pin rattler that leaves a tap in over the possibility that the ball races way past the hole and brings a 3-putt into play.

 

(2) While the logical part of my brain tells me that the flagstick won't affect a well-paced putt, something irrational in me feels like there's just less room in the hole for the ball. So...for any putt that I deem even just somewhat makeable (call it inside 25 feet or so, depending on break), I really prefer the flagstick out. HOWEVER, there's one exception: if I'm unsure about the break on a shortish putt (say 4-8 feet), I'll sometimes leave it in and ram the ball straight into the stick to remove the mystery break from the equation.

 

To speed up rounds, I'll generally agree to leave it in if the rest of group are all "innies", but I'll switch to removing it if I start feeling like it's messing with my head.

[Augster]

> @nsxguy said:

> > @Augster said:

> > > @nsxguy said:

> > > > @Augster said:

> > > > If all cups were never put on slopes, this wouldn’t be an issue. Our cups are VERY rarely not on a slope of some kind. The old saying is, “There are no straight putts at Columbia”. And there really aren’t. Everything is a subtle break.

> > > >

> > > > When a cup is placed on a slant, nearly 100% at my course, one side of the circle is higher than the other. If you catch the flag in the middle and the ricochet isn’t straight down, and it shouldn’t be as the flag has some tilt because the cup has some tilt, and the ball bounces toward the low edge, it’s most likely coming out. There is “effectively less space” for it to go in due to the slant at green level.

> > > >

> > > > https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.golfdigest.com/story/putting-with-the-flagstick-in-could-be-a-mistake-new-golf-digest-study-from-cal-poly-professor-shows/amp

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.golfdigest.com/story/the-science-behind-why-the-flagstick-should-be-pulled-999-percent-of-the-time/amp

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > >

> > > FWIW I noted early in the year, maybe in this thread, that the only issue I've found with the flagstick was the tendency of hitting the flagstick on the low side (when it's on a slant of course) tended to kick it out.

> > >

> > > The again, hitting the high side of the pin on that same slant tended to "suck" it in so net-net, no net effect.

> > >

> > >

> > > And BTW, since you like to rely on your tests when it suits you, how about when it doesn't ?

> > >

> > > You previously said

> > > > @Augster said:

> > > > **I missed two more putts off the flag inside of 4 feet today. Both center cut. One of them was 18 inches**. I was playing 9 by myself and not pulling pins to “save time”. No time was saved, and my score suffered.

> > > >

> > > > It further reinforced my “always pull the flag” philosophy. Especially with money on the line. I really don’t see how this isn’t happening to the “leave it in” crowd. The only explanation I can come up with is either they are playing to bigger than standard cups, or they are picking up a lot of putts inside 4 feet for “pace of play” purposes. Putt them all out. You’ll see.

> > >

> > > Meanwhile, the article you linked to says "_**For straight-on putts that would hit the flagstick dead center, there also was no difference on attempts for putts that would have rolled 4 1⁄2 feet past the hole. Whether the flagstick was in or not, 100 percent of the putts were made**_."

> > >

> > > Still think you didn't hit those putts too hard ? LOL

> > >

> > >

> > You missed “for straight on putts”. There are no “straight on putts” at my course unless your ball accidentally ends up below or above the hole on the fall line. Which is VERY rare.

> >

>

> Wasn't your description of your putt "18 inches that hit the pin dead center" ?

 

Yes. It hit the pin dead center. But it was a breaking putt. Even from a foot and a half. If you read nearly any of the putts at my course as straight, you’re going to miss low.

 

[Mcgeeno]

Not trying to drum up any type of heated debate but how did you guys find the overall breakdown for your club this year?

 

Conservatively I would say golfers I played with were 95 percent full flag in at all times. Almost all casual rounds.

 

One golfer I played with was flag out for everything. He was the only guy.

 

Another was flag out for inside 10-15 feet.

 

Over 120 rounds I played this year with multiple different players in close to 10 strokeplay tournament rounds/inter club events etc.

 

It seemed to be an overwhelming majority where I golfed.

 

I only had one round where we did the flag in/flag out rope a dope. It was with the one guy I mentioned who was a flag out guy. After about 6 holes we got in a rhythm. One guy would putt out and then tend/pull for the other 3 and that was in a tournament round.

[bladehunter]

> @Mcgeeno said:

> Not trying to drum up any type of heated debate but how did you guys find the overall breakdown for your club this year?

>

> Conservatively I would say golfers I played with were 95 percent full flag in at all times. Almost all casual rounds.

>

> One golfer I played with was flag out for everything. He was the only guy.

>

> Another was flag out for inside 10-15 feet.

>

> Over 120 rounds I played this year with multiple different players in close to 10 strokeplay tournament rounds/inter club events etc.

>

> It seemed to be an overwhelming majority where I golfed.

>

> I only had one round where we did the flag in/flag out rope a dope. It was with the one guy I mentioned who was a flag out guy. After about 6 holes we got in a rhythm. One guy would putt out and then tend/pull for the other 3 and that was in a tournament round.

 

At first everyone tried it in. But as of now I can’t recall the last round I played with a group that wanted it in. Only one full time guy who wants it in. So we just put it back in for him.

[davep043]

> @Mcgeeno said:

> Not trying to drum up any type of heated debate but how did you guys find the overall breakdown for your club this year?

>

I'd estimate that 60 to 70% of the folks I played with left the flag in for everything. The majority of the "others" wanted it out for anything under 15 to 20 feet.

 

 

[Sawgrass]

It's mysterious to me that I play all the time with "pin in" guys, and NOT ONCE all year have I seen a reasonably-paced putt pop out of the hole. I guess other people have different experiences, or different flagstick materials, but I'm hard pressed to imagine that this could make such a difference.

 

And . . . I believe this, "there's less room in the cup with the pin in" theory has to be quashed. Sure there's less room, but that's irrelevant. If they let you pull up a curved shield/backboard positioned on the inside of the cup, and rotate it to the back of the cup for your particular putt, no one would be concerned that the shield took up space in the cup. The real issue is does the flagstick make an effective backstop, not how much volume it consumes. And as I implied in my first paragraph, from where I sit it makes a useful backstop.

[DaveLeeNC]

One positive comment (positive from my perspective, anyway). As time goes on I am seeing some of the formerly 'pin must be out on shorter putts' guys changing their perspective and putting 5 footers with the pin in. I really like the new rule when everyone in the group putts out without anyone touching the pin. It is just simpler and if it affects scoring, that effect is WAY down in the noise level (as in quite rare).

 

dave

[ThinkingPlus]

> @Mcgeeno said:

> Not trying to drum up any type of heated debate but how did you guys find the overall breakdown for your club this year?

>

> Conservatively I would say golfers I played with were 95 percent full flag in at all times. Almost all casual rounds.

>

> One golfer I played with was flag out for everything. He was the only guy.

>

> Another was flag out for inside 10-15 feet.

>

> Over 120 rounds I played this year with multiple different players in close to 10 strokeplay tournament rounds/inter club events etc.

>

> It seemed to be an overwhelming majority where I golfed.

>

> I only had one round where we did the flag in/flag out rope a dope. It was with the one guy I mentioned who was a flag out guy. After about 6 holes we got in a rhythm. One guy would putt out and then tend/pull for the other 3 and that was in a tournament round.

 

A few of the ladies here like it in all the time. The rest want it out inside of 30' or so. Most have wanted it out for tournament play this year for any putts less than 30' or so with a 2 or 3 exceptions. I want it out all the time or tended. Most all good putters I have played with want it out unless the putt is long range.

[Mcgeeno]

> @ThinkingPlus said:

Most all good putters I have played with want it out unless the putt is long range.

 

Interesting!

 

It was the complete opposite at my club.

 

[jobin]

From off the green today, on a 20 yd chip, the ball hit the leaning stick and spun out. We all agreed that if the stick had been straight up in the cup the ball would have fallen. He was left with a 2 inch putt.

 

Personally, i leave the stick in for long putts. Short putts mostly stick out coz i perceive a larger hole that way.

 

[bigred90gt]

> @Sawgrass said:

> It's mysterious to me that I play all the time with "pin in" guys, and NOT ONCE all year have I seen a reasonably-paced putt pop out of the hole. I guess other people have different experiences, or different flagstick materials, but I'm hard pressed to imagine that this could make such a difference.

>

 

I'm happy you haven't seen it, really I am. I have had it happen to me plenty of times (usually once per round*, and I play 2-3 rounds per week), and seen it happen to others in my group plenty of times. Same reason I used to pull the pin when chipping from around the green. These are absolutely putts that would have gone in, but glanced off the pin and kicked out. Not dead flush center cut straight on at the pin, it's the putts that glance off the side of it that would have fallen that end up getting rejected.

 

I've only seen 1 putt that was center cut flush to the middle of the pin get rejected that I thought would have gone in without it. The others would have probably hopped over the hole.

 

That being said, when it is just my wife and I, we don't touch the flag unless it is leaning in the hole. When I play with my semi-regular group, the flag gets pulled as soon as everyone is on the green. If someone wants it tended, they'll request it, otherwise it's out.

 

Since I'm not playing competitively anymore (aside form the random $5/man skins game), I just don't get bothered if a putt bounces off the pin when I'm playing with my wife, so I couldn't care less if it is in or out. If everyone wants it out, great, take it out. If everyone want's it in, great, leave it in. If there's a mix, great, do with it what you will, and I'll putt however it is sitting when it's my turn.

 

 

*NOTE: sometimes it happens once per round, sometimes it happens a couple of times, sometimes it doesnt happen at all, I'm just throwing an average out there.

[Mcgeeno]

I havent had it happen to me, but I have seen a ball hit the flag dead center and stay out 2-3 times over my 100+ rounds this season.

 

I know its helped a lot of zooming putts stay within tap in range though. I bet that number is closer to 100 haha.

 

 

[davep043]

> @Mcgeeno said:

> I havent had it happen to me, but I have seen a ball hit the flag dead center and stay out 2-3 times over my 100+ rounds this season.

>

> I know its helped a lot of zooming putts stay within tap in range though. I bet that number is closer to 100 haha.

>

>

 

This is about the proportion I've seen. The ones that hit the flag and stay out, we're just guessing that they might have gone in, its impossible to actually know. But I admit, I've seen a half-dozen or so that have looked like they had a chance but stayed out after hitting the flag. I've seen many many more putts and chips hit the flag going way too fast, and end up MUCH closer than they would have without the flag. And yes, I'm estimating (or guessing) there too.

 

Here's my view, if you're absolutely certain you'll get the speed right, that the ball will go in if it hits the hole, the flagstick can only hurt you. If you're not sure, if there's a moderate chance of hitting it too hard, the flagstick could reject a good putt, but could also keep a too-firm putt close to the hole.

[Mikey5e]

> @Mcgeeno said:

> I havent had it happen to me, but I have seen a ball hit the flag dead center and stay out 2-3 times over my 100+ rounds this season.

>

> I know its helped a lot of zooming putts stay within tap in range though. I bet that number is closer to 100 haha.

>

>

 

I had one putt stay out when it just clipped the flag and held it out (my belief anyway). I have had several hit the stick and remain close to the hole when they should have gone past 5-10 feet. I still like the flag pulled for close in putts, it just creates a more palatable scene for me.

[dpb5031]

> @Sawgrass said:

> It's mysterious to me that I play all the time with "pin in" guys, and NOT ONCE all year have I seen a reasonably-paced putt pop out of the hole. I guess other people have different experiences, or different flagstick materials, but I'm hard pressed to imagine that this could make such a difference.

>

> And . . . I believe this, "there's less room in the cup with the pin in" theory has to be quashed. Sure there's less room, but that's irrelevant. If they let you pull up a curved shield/backboard positioned on the inside of the cup, and rotate it to the back of the cup for your particular putt, no one would be concerned that the shield took up space in the cup. The real issue is does the flagstick make an effective backstop, not how much volume it consumes. And as I implied in my first paragraph, from where I sit it makes a useful backstop.

 

@Sawgrass, you clearly have your preference for the "pin in." My preference is "out." I play with a large group from plus up to 18s, and although initially many preferred "out," viewing it as an advantage (as was initially purported), now it's practically unanimously out. A few guys prefer the optics of it in, but they're the higher caps. Still, we're all happy to accommodate.

 

I've seen quite a few putts rejected by the pin. Typically the impact is slightly off center and there's some slope/break. I've also seen plenty hit the stick, get deflected, but end up closer than expected because the ball was rolling too fast, thus likely saving a stroke.

 

In my case, I control speed well and do not prefer the optics of the pin in the hole. It's an easy decision to just take it out as I see zero advantage in terms of scoring. I play in a lot of county and state events, plus some USGA stuff, and it's gotten to the point where it's almost as if the rule hasn't changed. Pin is OUT except for longer putts where a player may have asked for a "tend".

 

In terms of pace, it's a non-factor IMO. Slow and inconsiderate players will always figure out a way to be slow. The most important thing is to be ready to hit when it's your turn. That hasn't changed with this new rule and it's not that hard regardless with just a smidge of awareness.

[Newby]

Surprisingly (?) not one of the 800+ posts in this thread have caused me to change my mind. And I guess, no one else's either.

[sui generis]

> @Newby said:

> Surprisingly (?) not one of the 800+ posts in this thread have caused me to change my mind. And I guess, no one else's either.

 

800+ anecdotes. :p

[Mcgeeno]

> @Newby said:

> Surprisingly (?) not one of the 800+ posts in this thread have caused me to change my mind. And I guess, no one else's either.

 

 

Tough to teach an old dog new tricks.

 

 

[Newby]

> @Mcgeeno said:

> > @Newby said:

> > Surprisingly (?) not one of the 800+ posts in this thread have caused me to change my mind. And I guess, no one else's either.

>

>

> Tough to teach an old dog new tricks.

>

>

 

I didn't say what my old trick was.

[Roadking2003]

> @davep043 said:

> > @Mcgeeno said:

> > Not trying to drum up any type of heated debate but how did you guys find the overall breakdown for your club this year?

> >

> I'd estimate that 60 to 70% of the folks I played with left the flag in for everything. The majority of the "others" wanted it out for anything under 15 to 20 feet.

>

>

 

For my group of 18 - 20 players it's 95% in all the time.

[rogolf]

In our groups, it's either in or out, as the player wants it (and the Rules permit). I don't understand this - is it some sort of poll?

[Schulzmc]

I've been chuckling to myself about the guys who claimed they missed a short putt because of the pin being in... until it happened to me this weekend. I had a bit more than 2 feet - a little break but I gave it some pace to take the break out. It did not hit the center of the pin but hit the side and deflected straight right - and out of the hole. It sat about 6 inches away when it stopped. Every guy in the group stood there stunned. All agreed that it would have dropped without the pin. From now on within 6 feet it's coming out.

[Mcgeeno]

> @Schulzmc said:

> I've been chuckling to myself about the guys who claimed they missed a short putt because of the pin being in... until it happened to me this weekend. I had a bit more than 2 feet - a little break but I gave it some pace to take the break out. It did not hit the center of the pin but hit the side and deflected straight right - and out of the hole. It sat about 6 inches away when it stopped. Every guy in the group stood there stunned. All agreed that it would have dropped without the pin. From now on within 6 feet it's coming out.

 

 

Thats a crappy one. I watched a guy in our 16 man cash game hit the pin dead on and it just bounced back at him about an inch. I think it would have lipped in without the flag, Just a weird one.

 

Now the only thing I would say is for every one weird one that kissed the flag and stayed out I bet most people who are going "flag in" have 100 that hit the flag and dropped or dove in or left them a tap-in instead of 4-6 feet coming back.

 

I know I have seen more guys sizzle a terrible put from 12 feet that should have gone 5 feet past and it hit the flag and dropped or rested right beside the flag for a tap in and not a knee knocking 5 footer.

 

Nobody ever posts about those ones LOL.

[Hawkeye77]

Results from this season here and abroad - pin in the exception, pin out the rule.

 

Observed a couple of caddies that IMO were trying to influence flag in for pace of play reasons (when pace of play was just fine on one day to borderline too fast on another) and didn't think that was necessary but didn't really affect me - mine on both occasions was fine with me telling him to just assume I'd appreciate it pulled and would let him know if I wanted it left in. I figured what others wanted to do was up to them. Comp I played in with a couple of good players the flag was out on everything but long putts, and not always in on those, but one round on one day among three players.

[Augster]

We started the year with flag in and were excited about it. Now, after a year of beatings by the flagstick, it is very rare to play with someone that wants it in. On ridiculously long putts, sure. It’s quicker than attending the stick. But for the most part, everyone has come around to the “old way” in taking it out.

 

In zero tournies I played in this year paired with random other players did anyone ever want it left in except for really long putts.

 

The really old guys at my course who play their game early always leave it in. Of course, they are playing for $1.25. The most you’re going to win in that game is about $5 and that’s if you nearly sweep everything. It just wouldn’t be as soul-crushing to miss one off the stick to know it cost you a chance to win $2.50. Compared to the bigger games where that same missed up can cost you a chance at winning $40.

[Newby]

> @"sui generis" said:

> > @Newby said:

> > Surprisingly (?) not one of the 800+ posts in this thread have caused me to change my mind. And I guess, no one else's either.

>

> 800+ anecdotes. :p

 

900+ shortly.

So far no consistent 'proof' either way

[bladehunter]

> @Schulzmc said:

> I've been chuckling to myself about the guys who claimed they missed a short putt because of the pin being in... until it happened to me this weekend. I had a bit more than 2 feet - a little break but I gave it some pace to take the break out. It did not hit the center of the pin but hit the side and deflected straight right - and out of the hole. It sat about 6 inches away when it stopped. Every guy in the group stood there stunned. All agreed that it would have dropped without the pin. From now on within 6 feet it's coming out.

 

Not so funny now eh?

 

Sorry. Had to. I felt the same way for about 2 days. Until I saw a tap on spat out. I think slope and leaning pins at my course ( no flat spots on the greens) makes a huge difference tooo. Miss one slightly off center and on the leaning side and it’s coming out.

[bladehunter]

> @Newby said:

> > @"sui generis" said:

> > > @Newby said:

> > > Surprisingly (?) not one of the 800+ posts in this thread have caused me to change my mind. And I guess, no one else's either.

> >

> > 800+ anecdotes. :p

>

> 900+ shortly.

> So far no consistent 'proof' either way

 

However . There is significant data that says it’s not a forgone conclusion either way.

[Hawkeye77]

I'm a supporter of the USGA as an organization, but this for me is an example of the times and people not thinking about the foundations of rules, etc.

 

USGA says no more posting while you play by yourself, but oh by the way, "since we've heard some of you folks think you shouldn't have to be penalized when putting with the flag in while playing alone, now you can pull it." Thanks a lot.

 

There was no real pace of play data and no conclusive data about helping or hurting putts - it just sounded good. For me, not good enough.

 

What seems pretty conclusive is that for golfers at the highest level, leaving it in is by far the overwhelming exception, which is interesting.

 

But the rule is here and folks should do as they please within the rules and no issues either way with that.